KOTR Faction Poll:Final Round

[Zim]

It took two rounds, but three factions have made it to the front of the pack. This will be the final poll (barring further discussion after the test game is done and rules finalized). This one is not multiple choice, so pick the faction you'd most like to see in the new KOTR game. It will close in 48 hours.

Our three final factions:

France: The paragon of feudalism, France is a strong contender. It was decentralized enough to fit the rather fluid rules Tincow has worked so hard on to mirror the feudal system, and to make the challenging of the King by nobles realistic. The country starts off fairly large with a lot of territory to conquer, making the formation of Houses easier. France is also well situated for conflict with multiple European factions, ensuring that players based in no region of the country can rest on their laurels without having to worry about attack. The pope is also likely to play a strong role in a French campaign, as it did in the HRE one, providing many interesting avenues for roleplay.

There have also been some valid criticisms of France, however. France is quite close to the HRE, the faction played in KOTR, and a French game might cover much of the same ground as far as conquest, with the same familiar enemies. France also has the faction roster closest to the HRE, with many of its low to mid tier units possibly overfamiliar to anyone who has played a western European faction. Lastly, with some of the best mounted knights in the game, dismounted knights, horsearchers, and both a unique longbow and crossbow unit, France's late era roster might be overpowered, a possible detraction from the fun of vs. AI battles.

The Templars: A faction unique to SS, the Templars would offer a large change from the faction of the last game. They offer the familiarity of European style armies (although with their own unique units) in a setting pitting them against the horsearcher heavy factions of the east. They're in direct line for the Mongols and Timurids, keeping the mid-late game challenging. As a crusader faction, the pope will be an easy source of the kind of missions that Tincow hopes will add to the fun of the new game. They have a fascinating histroy that can only add to the game.

The Templars were not without their detractors in the last poll, however. Some found their unit roster dull, with lots of knights and feudal units. They start the smallest of the factions, and it will take quite some time to expand to accomodate the many generals we are likely to have. This would be a strong obstacle to rank climbing for everyone in the early game.

The ERE Our last faction is also the one that garnered the most votes in the last two polls. Although not the first faction that comes to mind when one hears the word "feudalism", they are a surprisingly good fit. The Eastern Roman Empire began to feudalize in this period much of the power and money in the Empire resided in the local Lords instead of the Emperor. Of the three factions, they are the one most associated in the period with the kind of Civil Wars and intrigue the rules encourage. They are large and contain multiple avenues of expansion allowing them to go up against eastern or western foes. They are also set up to fight the Mongols and Timurids, making for an interesting mid to late game. They have a unit roster far different to the other two factions, with a more eastern feel. They also have a very nice reskin in the mod we're playing, with a few added units.

However, some concerns were raised about the roster. Ramses noted that they get Vardaratoi, one of their most useful units, early on in the game, hurting the feeling of the player armies evolving as the game goes on, and possibly making the early game too easy. However, ATPG, blitzer extraordinaire, argued otherwise, that the lack of crusades (and risk of facing them and jihads) might them harder than France. The lack of a pope figure to play a strong role in roleplaying through crusades and tensions over excommunication was also cited as a minus for the Romans. Lastly, the title name would have to change to fit the Roman system.

Anyway, that was my attempt to list the pluses and minuses for each faction from the last two poll threads. Obviously, anyone is welcome to add their own perspective, correct the one laid forth in the post, etc. :yes:

Thanks to everyone who votes!

[Ramses II CP]

I voted for France. At least we have to wait awhile for their overpowered units to pop out. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Zim]

They do make up for it in quantity of overpowered units. :clown:

Personally I've seen enough sergeants and armoured sergeants for alifetime, myself. ~;)


I voted for France. At least we have to wait awhile for their overpowered units to pop out. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[AussieGiant]

Voted Templar.

I actually like the idea of limited provinces. IC houses can be role-played rather than reflective of provinces.

Although I assume that we would have to contrive some type of back story and setting in the game in order to deal with all the characters we have at the start of the game until this balances out.

[Ituralde]

To vote Templar is intriguing, because I figure that it's so easy to implement any new nobles popping up. They came from Europe and are now searching new land. This would also make it realistic for the Houses to want to rise fast and conquer a lot of territory. We also wouldn't have the problem of our own feudal chains conflicting with traditional systems. Everyone starts on the same footing. No old Houses that clog up the system.

The only real problem I see isn't the small size, as people will want to expand anyway, but the limited expansion. I believe TinCows system spurs people to seize as much territory as they can get and it might be hard to keep the Templars confined. Somehow I can't think of creating an Empire with them that would feel like having natural boundaries without appearing too small. I just have problems with becoming way too ahistoric I guess.


My second choice would then fall to either France or the ERE. Probably the ERE is in the lead right now as I can also imagine the independet powers within the state and I see a lot possibilities for intrigue. I also like the change of geography and unit roster that would perhaps bore me with France. Orthodox Christianity also opens up a lot of the things PK mentioned for the Templars. You have to decide your stance on Islam and on Catholicism and also on your fellow Orthodox factions. Then you have the goal of reconquering the WRE eventually and you have enough goals that will be quite hard to achieve within the timeframe. The historic Empire would be large enough to allow for multiple big Houses which would really keep the fun going right through to the endgame.

So really right now it's a close tie between ERE and Templars. I haven't cast my vote yet and don't know if I will. Either way, even if it's France it will be spectacular! :2thumbsup:

[AussieGiant]

ERE would be my second choice also Ituralde.

The Templar situation fits in many ways, the idea that everyone starts out as equal, apart from a few main characters is accurate and believable.

I would expect us to expand quickly as the alliances and houses form...then as they form the natural competition between them and the Temple Hierarchy itself will begin to limit our expansion and stabilise the situation.

I truly expect TC's mechanics to create an excellent internal check on our IC expansion against the AI and other factions.

[Ignoramus]

Remember that by the endgame we'll be far more powerful than the AI anyway, so France's really good late units won't really affect the situation.

The problem with the Templars is that they were a military order, not a state. They were founded to bolster the Kingdom of Jerusalem's army, which was seriously short of manpower. Having an empire with them just goes completely against the grain for me.

The ERE is very tempting, I must admit, but I feel that they are too strong early on, which is when(if at all) we'll be seriously challenged by the AI.

[AussieGiant]

They might have been a military order Igno, but they owned a crap load of land by all accounts...they where seriously powerful in a number of official and unofficial ways.

Hell, the point you raised could be a major IC decision...does the Order stay as it was originally intended or make use of it's strength to become more than it was planned?

[Ituralde]

I must say that I don't worry about the AI in either cases. The rules are well enough to have internal strife. The AI to me would just be another means to get back at internal enemies. A little something on the side, but hopefully not the main challenge. They spice it up, but the real interesting challenges will come from the playerbase anyways, so our strength in relation to the AI doesn't factor in my decision at all.

[AussieGiant]

I certainly hope that the SS Mod we use has some affect on the AI and keeps us more on our toes with the battle and strategy part of our IC work.

It certainly seems that way from reading the changes.

[TinCow]

The only real problem I see isn't the small size, as people will want to expand anyway, but the limited expansion. I believe TinCows system spurs people to seize as much territory as they can get and it might be hard to keep the Templars confined. Somehow I can't think of creating an Empire with them that would feel like having natural boundaries without appearing too small. I just have problems with becoming way too ahistoric I guess.

We would definitely have ahistoric expansion. No matter what faction we play, I expect to see at least some players splinter off and seize provinces that are isolated from the starting area. For the French, this could be in England, Russia, or Outremer. For the Templars, this would be more likely back in Europe. I would not be surprised to see the Templars turn into a power with 'colonies' all around the Med. That would definitely be ahistorical.

[Ituralde]

We would definitely have ahistoric expansion. No matter what faction we play, I expect to see at least some players splinter off and seize provinces that are isolated from the starting area. For the French, this could be in England, Russia, or Outremer. For the Templars, this would be more likely back in Europe. I would not be surprised to see the Templars turn into a power with 'colonies' all around the Med. That would definitely be ahistorical.

Yeah that's true! Doesn't make my choice easier though! :2thumbsup:

[TinCow]

I've decided to abstain. I honestly can't make up my mind. Apparently the rest of us can't either, since it's pretty much evenly split between the three factions.

[FactionHeir]

Another run off then?

[AussieGiant]

How about pistols at dawn? :dizzy2:

[Ferret]

I voted ERE, want to move away from Western Europe and I've already voiced my opinion of the Templar order.

[Cecil XIX]

Voted ERE, both for being a nice change of pace and because I'm a sentimental fool who want's to keep our 'Roman' theme going. :yes:

[The Lemongate]

Oh and you'll get a nice "Third Rome" Russia in Empires to go on after this one! (The Moscovite Third Rome concept did appear around 1700 right?)


uh... go ERE! :2thumbsup:



Edit: Ah no, wikipedia says 1500 rather. Still, that's one final "roman" option if ever, whenever, ya know, just saying...

[Northnovas]

I am a bit undecided like TC. I do favour the west factions and have no issue with the 3 selected. The most intriguing would be the Templars but having the exposure with the AAR the mystery is unravelling.

With the 3 options I have no preference. :dizzy2:

[Privateerkev]

I wonder which way it would split if we took the Templars out. Anyone want a final "final" poll? :clown:

[Zim]

I'm sure the undecideds have already seen all of the posts supporting this or that faction in the other threads, but just in case, this is why I like the ERE the most. :yes:

For my part I find France far too close to the HRE and central Europe, but I may be slightly biased for having played mostly Swabians in KOTR. I'd also like to pick a faction that does not have a faction roster based around the same troops the HRE, France, and many of the other western European factions share.

The Eastern Romans are my first pick. I really enjoy their history, and backstabbing and civil wars seem completely appropriate for Eastern Roman politics. I think they even started to feudalize a bit in this period with the themes. Their unit roster is completely different from the European ones (well, as different as MTW2 rosters get). We'd be in line for a Mongol invasion. It might also be interesting to be a possible target of a crusade (can you say "Gm added Fourth Crusade event?" :beam: ). They have a nice reskin in SS and a couple new units. I think they'd make a neat connection with the other KOTR type games. Not only were they a nemeis of sorts in the KOTR, but with the WOTS being a Roman game, and us playing the Holy Roman Empire in the KOTR, it seems we should play the last "Roman" faction. :beam:

I think the ERE would also be good because it was ripe with Civil wars, and the emperorship did not always move in a direct line from father to oldest son, working well with the way the game chooses heirs. Lastly, it is one of the factions best suited to have an important, elected position like Chancellor, having at least theoretically had a senate and elected positions still in the Imperial era.

"Megas logothetes (Grand Logothete) – the head of the logothetes, personally responsible for the legal system and treasury, somewhat like a chancellor in western Europe."

As for titles, I think we could find appropriate ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_aristocracy_and_bureaucracy

Anyway, that's why I prefer the ERE the most. Truth is, all of the faction choices are great and will add to rather than detract from the game. :2thumbsup:

[Zim]

As for a "final" final poll, I'm a little wary of having yet another one (had only meant for two originally. :clown: ) but I'll guess we'll see how close this one ends up.

[Privateerkev]

I dig all three choices. In the 1st round, I voted for all of them except the HRE.

I would simply "prefer" the Templars for the reasons listed before. But I have every confidence that either France or ERE would provide a fun backdrop for us to play in. :yes:

[FactionHeir]

I'd be for Templars or France. Not a big fan of ERE. Horse archers are too cheesy against the AI.

[Zim]

Like mounted crossbowmen or France's own horsearchers? ~;p

Ok, they do take longer to get. :clown:

I never really use horsearchers a whole lot (except in BC) so I guess that never occurred to me as a problem. Avoiding them would pretty much limit us to western european factions for any incarnation of KOTR we play for MTW2, something I think would make the game less interesting. :yes:


I'd be for Templars or France. Not a big fan of ERE. Horse archers are too cheesy against the AI.

[Zim]

About one more day for the poll.

If people want a another final runoff poll, speak up. If that's how everyone feels I'll put on together after this one closes. :yes:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Again I only voted for one, and again it was the ERE.

If they lose, consider my vote for France.

If anyone considers the ERE too easy, make your voice heard now, because the game moderator can always crank up the difficulty by giving the enemy factions more money, and I believe there are other ways of making things difficult, if I am not mistaken.

I also like how the ERE can't really expand anywhere that's orthodox. Only Russia is orthodox and they aren't even worth conquering. They have no crusades and must fight on all fronts for every inch of land. From my perspective, it's a good thing they have good, diverse troops. Also, if you don't like the Vatara--do---thingies, you don't have to spam them. Just include a few. Also, horse archers are going to be facing other horse archers, and the Mongols later on make them fairly useless, so we will need a strong infantry and heavy cavalry too.

[deguerra]

Voted for the ERE.

I am against France because I want a change of scenery. Not that this would mean I would be unhappy with France, but I would be more happy with the other two.

I think the Templars could be really cool, but to be honest I never really liked their unit roster in Stainless Steel for some reason. Also, while they will provide by far the largest challenge at the start, I still am not sure how we could bring the fairly large number of interested people in quickly and still maintain a positive bank balance.

[Askthepizzaguy]

And the winner is.... the Eastern Roman Empire, because playing as the last of the Romans is uber pwnage.


-Yes, vote for the Unified Atheist League.

-No, vote for the United Atheist Allegiance!

-No, Allied Atheist Allegiance! It has three A's, therefore it is the only logical choice!!! Also, stop cutting down trees to make tables, instead of just eating off of your tummies!

[Zim]

:balloon2: Just under 24 hours to go! :balloon2:

[Ramses II CP]

My experience with the Vards isn't like ATPGs. A stack of Vards can take any two stacks of Mongols head to head. In fact a stack of Vards can take elephant timurid stacks one on one without much trouble. And saying 'just don't use them' doesn't work in a cooperative competitive environment unless you sign everyone on for the same rules.

Our desired armies will devolve to as many Vards as we're allowed, fill with whatever else is available. They're just that good. And they'll be just that good until the gunpowder era too, we aren't going to get better units later on. I would rather have my max allotment of Vards than have even one company of any other troops in an army. Yes, even in a siege, where I can just buy a couple of local foot mercs to get the gates open.

I admit I haven't completed a SS campaign as the Byzantines, but unless they've made major adjustments to the Vards they are going to be our top dogs for about 200 years. Hope everyone likes HA. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Fair enough, you may have played the ERE more than me, but one could make that same argument almost for any other faction's best unit. Dismounted Feudal Knights for the HRE coupled with a few cannons... Polish nobles... Russia's mounted archers. I think it's specifically the AI's lack of being able to handle horse archers which makes them so powerful, but properly handled, the AI doesn't know how to defend against ANY army.

I believe my endless stacks of spammed peasants and spearmen coupled with even the greenest generals proves how worthless the AI is. Sure, one on one, my troops stink out loud, but I have more of them and I can surround on all sides and give my lowly peasants almost unlimited morale, and I can kill as many of them as I want and then pop out a thousand more. Funny watching the nearly naked Scottish armed with a dagger surround English Knights and slay them all, taking only 3:1 casualties. Now throw some cheap armour on them, upgrade their daggers to gold plated ones, and give them experience, and by god they can almost go toe to toe with DFK's.

Sick!

The point is, the AI loses against peasants, and the AI loses against dismounted feudal knights. So of course they lose against horse archery. Now against humans there are anti-horsearcher tactics. Spammed high morale, high stamina axemen can take them down fairly well in melee, then it's just a matter of spreading them out and surrounding them, boxing them in with light cavalry and forcing a melee engagement. Not so powerful when they aren't throwing things, and they still get butchered in melee against infantry. Also I believe any spammed long range foot archer can counter horse archery, especially when paired with the axemen/spearmen/swordsmen combo. They have to get in range of arrows to shoot arrows at you, and more foot archers means more arrows pointed at them, and when they take casualties they flee almost instantly in melee.

That all having been said, point taken, the AI will suck against horse archers. It's a good thing they are so expensive. But don't be too proud of this cavalry archer terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy AI stacks is insignificant compared with the power of the force.

[TheFlax]

If Vards are such a big problem, wouldn't be simple to just limit them? It seems simple enough for me. I don't think we should pass up the rich roleplaying opportunity of the ERE just for the sake of avoiding a unit... Maybe I'm crazy?

EDIT: wow, triple replies to Ramses at 23:10 :clown: (Go ERE!)

[Zim]

Almost all units in the hands of players are overpowered. Just think of FH with a couple of Mailed Knights. :clown:

I recall a certain player mentioning in a hotseat thread that when it comes down to it we all play on an honor system, because anyone can find a way to cheat where they're unlikely to be caught. ~;)

The truth is we can make unbalances armies with any faction, and we can expand easily against the AI with any faction even if we don't make unbalanced armies. Certain elements of France's position (crusades, position) make it easier to roll over the map with them, as ATPG can attest. When it comes down to it, only we can stop eachother from expanding so fast as to make the game less fun. It's up to the players themselves to make battles against the AI factions hard or easy.

The reason I've avoided voting for France in the past two polls is I find them among the least interesting of all of the possible choices. They're in almost the same position as the HRE, with the same neighbors that were encounteered in the last game. They share a great deal of the same units, and some of their unique units have clear counterparts among the HRE lineup. Those that don't I don't find especially interesting.

The Byzantines on the other hand have uit roster that at least looks different from the western ones, a completely different position on the map, uniquer potential as a Mongol target and a faction that can be the subject of Crusades and Jihads, and to my mind is as well suited to teh new rules (especially the civil war rules) as France. THe Templars also have their own unique advantages, but suffer a bit from being a very small faction at the start, requiring blitzing to keep up with the number fo players.

To me playing France in the new game will just make it like the old KOTR game with new rules, and I personally think a change in setting can only help make the new game more entertaining.

[Zim]

Ramses post must have had quite an effect for three of us to post responses at exactly the same time. :laugh4:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Go Ramses! Go Ramses!

I can't help but root for you... 3:1 odds? That's just like my naked scotsman with daggers... you can kill the DFK's, Ramses... use the force, trust your feelings, and don't be afraid when the ten people in front of you die from a single swing of an english blade. You must feel the force FLOW through you and attempt to stab him in that little opening in his face mask.

[Cecil XIX]

Where I come from, that's what we call a 'hivemind'. :laugh4:

[Ramses II CP]

Well, I would never make the point that Vards are overpowered against a player.

However.

This is a situation unique to the Byzantines. The Vards are, by a long way, the best units the Byzantines get until gunpowder comes around. Does anyone who has taken a look at their unit roster want to argue that point?

So, that conceded, we already know that HA is superior to every other unit type (Again, only player vs AI is in consideration). Superior in the sense that your victory will never be at risk from a high dread opponent, and you'll probably never take more than 10% casualties at the outside. Even the most superbly balanced starting unit stack from another nation will at least have to get into a melee once in awhile.

The AI hangs it's foot archers out to dry against a charge every time. So foot archers, the player's counter to HA, is not available. No other infantry can catch HA, so all those spearmen and foot knights can do is die. Heavy cavalry cannot catch HA, at best a large stack of heavy cavalry with shields won't be completely annihilated by an HA stack and so require a second go around, or you might have to commit your general to a fight. The AI is pretty good with HA, relatively speaking, but either we limit HA to 4 companies per stack or the AI's HA will always be outnumbered. The AI does not build fast cavalry stacks, which would be the logical answer to most HA, but that's good because Vards are better in melee than almost all light cavalry.

Yes, you can own the AI with any army, but with HA heavy armies you can own the AI without taking losses.

And, respectfully, you can't make that point for any unit which is available from the start of the game for any other faction. Not even the Russian cavalry, which will suffer heavier losses than Vards against HA or spearmen heavy stacks (The latter of which you see a lot of at the start of the game) due to limited ammo. Nor is there another faction which does not get a better unit than the one it has at the start, although I suppose Jinettes are debatable there, they too have limited ammo.

So, let me be clear, I don't think we should avoid the ERE just because of one unit. I do think Vards will want a special rule to limit their effectiveness, or we may want to consider removing them completely. They are ungodly good at tearing through the AI. People say the Byzantine unit roster is 'fresh' and 'unique,' but my game play with them didn't show me that at all. I didn't need or want any Byzantine infantry or foot archers. I trained a little heavy cavalry to limit my losses when I fought the Mongols, but that was it until gunpowder.

So, not a horrible negative, but definitely requiring yet another army composition rule, IMHO. My warning should be taken as: You may find battles rather dull. For a long time.

:egypt:

[Zim]

Wait. Ramses, you have not played the ERE in Stainless Steel, right? I haven't either, so I started up a game to take a look at things.

Vardaratoi are only 1 point of melee attack and a couple charge points (still with a low charge) away from their counterparts in the Turkish and Egyptian armies. Unlike vanilla, they have lower melee stats than Mailed Knights. Add to that being recruited only from King's Stables and I don't see an overpowered unit.

[00jebus]

Arn't Vards nerfed in SS anyway? or did the stat rebalance happen in a later version?

If no, we can always put in a player imposed AoR... say... that they can only be recruited in Trebazond and Sinop?
increasing the in-game value of that province as well.

[Zim]

Yep, they're nerfed. Under half the ranged attack of vanilla. And available only from the very highest level of stables, so we wouldn't get them for a very long while. :yes:


Arn't Vards nerfed in SS anyway? or did the stat rebalance happen in a later version?

If no, we can always put in a player imposed AoR... say... that they can only be recruited in Trebazond and Sinop?
increasing the in-game value of that province as well.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I believe I can speak for us all when I say:


BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


At least Ramses' fears about boredom are squashed. This should be fun!

[Zim]

I think the joke is on all of us. All that debate about a unit and none of us started up a game to see how different they are in the mod. :clown:

Anyway, there's still a bit under a day for the poll to close, and the chance of a clamor for yet another runoff poll with only two options. The faction choice is not yet definate :yes:


I believe I can speak for us all when I say:


BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


At least Ramses' fears about boredom are squashed. This should be fun!

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't have that mod
:shame:


EDIT:


Where I come from, that's what we call a 'hivemind'. :laugh4:

You're from the Delta Quadrant?

[Privateerkev]

Anyway, there's still a bit under a day for the poll to close, and the chance of a clamor for yet another runoff poll with only two options. :yes:

If France and ERE were closer together, I'd propose us doing another poll to see where the Templar people split. But ERE is pulling ahead pretty good now.

I dunno, what do the rest of you think?

[Zim]

I'd say we had enough polls, but I'm a bit biased towards one faction now that we've narrowed it down so much. :clown:

If one faction started to pull closer or enough people wanted to I'd be happy to do another poll. It all depends on what happens in the next 20 some hours. :yes:


If France and ERE were closer together, I'd propose us doing another poll to see where the Templar people split. But ERE is pulling ahead pretty good now.

I dunno, what do the rest of you think?

[TheFlax]

I'd rather end it after this one, three polls are enough in my opinion.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh NO YOU DONT!!! No! NO! NOOOOO!!!!

We can't end it after only three polls! Especially when France is nearly almost hypothetically, if you count Florida and Michigan, technically ahead in the popular vote! Let's let the super duper awesome ultra uberdelegates decide this contest, and three voters for the ERE don't count because they all posted comments at the same time.

That's the democratic process, by cracky, and I should know, I'm an American. We Americans INVENTED Democracy. And then we sold it off in little barely noticeable pieces and then invented lobbyists. And we invented flags, guns, and fireworks and even space travel. YEEE HAWWW!!!*

I propose we add an electoral college and a supreme court ruling to this process and give it a swanky nickname:

Electionfest 2008: All Long, Painful, Endless Roads Lead to Rome.


*Warning: Claims may not match historical "record", you know, if you believe those "history" "books".

[Privateerkev]

*Warning: Claims may not match historical "record", you know, if you believe those "history" "books".

It's ok, history books don't match the historical record... :clown:

[Askthepizzaguy]

PS- We also built the pyramids. And discovered France.

And I personally killed all the dinosaurs. Ran 'em over with my truck.

[Zim]

Even scarier that many of the people who write history books about the history of government have a poor uderstanding of political science. Ah, the age of specializations over broad knowledge. :sweatdrop:


It's ok, history books don't match the historical record... :clown:

[Privateerkev]

Even scarier that many of the people who write history books about the history of government have a poor uderstanding of political science. Ah, the age of specializations over broad knowledge. :sweatdrop:

In my department, we made fun of the people who did political history or diplomatic history. We call it "old white men" history. :clown:

*edit*

And you don't even want to know what we said about our political science department...

[Askthepizzaguy]

They can print all the lies they want in the history books and it won't affect me one bit. I'm completely and totally illiterate. I can't read or write, I don't know how to spell, and me also grammar good.

I just hit the keys randomly and stuff comes out. And I bluff understanding of the written word. It's gotten me this far. I'm a straight A college student and no one suspects my secret shame. I must admit it's not just luck that's gotten me this far though: I have a magic talisman which grants me infinite wishes.

So far I've asked for a postage stamp and a wooden nickel. Since I cannot read anyone's pleas for world peace or the end of hunger and disease, I can only assume that the rest of my wishes aren't needed.

[Privateerkev]

I just hit the keys randomly and stuff comes out. And I bluff understanding of the written word.

Oh you do that too? That's about how I got my bachelors...

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm sorry sir, no habla ingles.

[Zim]

I remember people from certain departments made that remark about all historians. :laugh4:

Given that so many people that major in Political Science were pre-law I imagine I've heard as bad or worse. Then again, the people at my school were pretty nice, so maybe not. :clown:

Could we please get back to topic until the poll's over? This page has seen the most interesting debate on faction choic thus far and I'd hate to see it buried when there could still be a few voters who haven't decided.


In my department, we made fun of the people who did political history or diplomatic history. We call it "old white men" history. :clown:

*edit*

And you don't even want to know what we said about our political science department...

[Privateerkev]

Could we please get back to topic until the poll's over? This page has seen the most interesting debate on faction choic thus far and I'd hate to see it buried when there could still be a few voters who haven't decided.

sorry. :bow:

I've noticed you, ATPG, and I are in real danger of becoming the "de-rail squad". ^_^

[Askthepizzaguy]

I agree. Back to topic.

I might be the biggest offender though. Not only was I not on topic, but I wasn't even contributing to the off-topic discussion. I was off-off-topic.

I also wasn't rational, coherent, consistent, sane, or even plausible. I was dangerously close to jibberish, which is only one step above the sheer lunacy of an Abokasixx postixxixix. Fortunately, it might be classified as humor, and the moderators tend to allow that in small doses.


WHICH FACTION DOES NEEMATOAD HAVE AND WHICH PANT LEG IS IT IN???

:veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :stars: :gah: :elephant: :7teacher: :7knight: :bow: :smash: :laugh2: :yes: :yes: :rulez:~:mecry: ~:eek: ~:eek: :spider: :nurse:

Answer me!!??11111one111eleven!!!ixixixixixxxxxx

:focus:

In all seriousness, the ERE should be very fun to play now that we've seen that their Vertarded Horse Archer spam won't be instantly available, cheap, or as powerful.
_______________________
Bows respectfully to Abokasee for teaching me the ways of the Bartix people. You 20 watt bulbs!!!

[AussieGiant]

So it's the ERE then.

Hmmmm very interesting. Good to see someone checked the Vard in SS. I guess that issue is resolved.

Askthepizzaguy, you're a funny man. :balloon2:

I hope you are going to play. If so then I'm angling for PG as your "call sign". Hope that's ok with you?

[Zim]

Although I'm strongly pro-ERE I'd like to point out that it's not time to break out the champagne and party hats yet. ~:cheers: :birthday2:

The poll still has over half a day. One of the 21 voters in this one did not vote in the last poll, meaning at least 5 people (25 voted in the last one) have not voted (including TC an NN, who are undecided at the moment). Theoretically France could pull an upset, or the Templars could tie the ERE forcing a runoff poll.

Even if the votes do not change significantly, if enough people request a runoff poll (especially templar voters who would change their vote in the final poll, or French voters if the Templars pull ahead) I'll do one. :yes:

AG, ATPG already has a call sign, albeit one longer than most. :clown:

I played around with the SS vardaratoi in a custom battle, just to see what they were like. Any player who uses only them will indeed find battles boring unless he's willing to risk casualties. Starting at 2x speed and switching to 6x, I could have sworn it took 4-5 minutes for them to significantly weaken a unit of feudal knights, shooting them in the back the whole time. I tried a battle in vanilla with them as well. My impression is that SS vards have fewer kills per volley than in vanilla, but rather more arrows, probably part of horse archer rebalancing in SS. They also lack the uber melee skills of the vanilla vard. All in all they were decidedly underwhelming considering their requirements in SS (King's Stables), and unless my enemy's army was especially cavalry heavy, I'd gladly take even fairly weak charge cavalry instead.

[AussieGiant]

Thanks Zim, I missed the ATPG reference. I thought that was an acronym for one of the ERE units....:dizzy2:

I think we should have one more vote...it will decide the matter as only two options will be present. To go this far and not finished would be a bit of a waste.

[Zim]

Ok, if I understand correctly at least FactionHeir and AussieGiant want a runoff. PK, is your mind still changed on that? How about anybody else? Speak now or forever hold your peace and all that. :clown:

If the ERE manages to garner more votes than both other factions combined I'd say no runoff, but otherwise it wouldn't be a big problem.

[_Tristan_]

I'm all for a last poll...

We've already gone this far to decide which faction to use, better make sure what people really want...

[Askthepizzaguy]

GAH! Now I must lobby the insane, ...uh I mean very intelligent Templars voters!

Come now... surely you don't want to be KOTF! What's that stand for? King of the Faeries??? King of the Foul??? King of the Fruit Cocktails??? King of the Freaks??? The Franks and the Carolignian empire? BAH! King of LE FRENCH!

Orthodox. New units. Better balance. Muslims, Christians, and Heretics OH MY!
This is the REAL ROMAN EMPIRE, not like those pretenders the Germans. This is the empire that has stood for 1500 years, and is the heir to an ancient greco-roman legacy! :yes: Yes, the ERE is the very definition of civilization! It is they who can rightly call themselves Romans.

Well, until I stomp all over them and begin the Ottoman Empire, that is, and then the mongols come and stomp all over them, and then the Crusaders come and wipe out whats left, and then the Islamic Caliphate comes and stomps out the last of them. Then we can begin the golden age of ISLAM!

Allalalalalalalalalalala!!!!

Or you can go with France. Either way. I understand in a certain Broken Crescent hotseat, I am literally surrounded by French speakers... I just cant pretend to be French very well. I know latin, I don't know french.

This is my understanding of French:

Parlay vooz Francine? No habla Ingles. Fetchez la vache! MOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! *twoing* MOOOOOOOOOOOO! Run Away!

Now go away or I taunt you a second time, silly english knnnnigits! Your mother was a hampster and your father smelt of elderberries!

Sees Tristan enter the room, and immediately stops mocking the French. Prepares for his inevitable death.

[GeneralHankerchief]

[serious post]

I'm for a runoff. Why not?

[/serious post]

[Ramses II CP]

Well, that's good news. I should've guessed that I wasn't the only person to ever notice that Vards are outrageously overpowered. :2thumbsup: :laugh4:

I suppose it's time for me to DL SS 4.1 and give it a poke then! Did HA in general get the nerf, or were armor values raised? I played SS 4 for awhile, but I wasn't a fan of some of the minor (IMHO) nuisance changes. It'll be interesting to re-evaluate it after having played BC.

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

Ok, if I understand correctly at least FactionHeir and AussieGiant want a runoff. PK, is your mind still changed on that? How about anybody else? Speak now or forever hold your peace and all that. :clown:

I wouldn't mind another. It's just that ERE did pull ahead so I was prepared to concede. But I am curious as to which way the Templar people will split in a new 2 faction poll. If enough other people want one, then I'm up for it.

[AussieGiant]

Exactly what drugs are being used by ATPG? :inquisitive:

[Ramses II CP]

Exactly what drugs are being used by ATPG? :inquisitive:

I'd give you the list, but some of them can only be referred to in unwritten Native American languages...

Immediately on starting a new SS game I recalled one of the most irritating changes, the 'supply' system. :thumbsdown:

I'd be fine with a new poll, but FYI my France vote would go to the ERE. The Templars as imagined by SS simply do not interest me.

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

I'd be fine with a new poll, but FYI my France vote would go to the ERE. The Templars as imagined by SS simply do not interest me.

Let me get this straight...

Because you don't want the faction that will not be on the poll, you will not vote for the faction you actually wanted but instead vote for a 3rd faction?

:clown:

[OverKnight]

We could have a 2nd place poll to vote on whether France or the Templars would face the ERE in the final final final poll.

Democracy simply doesn't work. :beam:

[Ramses II CP]

I, err, assumed the Templars would be the second option because there was a lot of objection to playing mainland Europe. That's incorrect? :embarassed:

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

We could have a 2nd place poll to vote on whether France or the Templars would face the ERE in the final final final poll.

Democracy simply doesn't work. :beam:

Well, even though I want the Templars, I do concede that they keep coming in behind France. So, if there is another final poll, then it should be France versus ERE FTW. :clown:

*edit*

Ramses: France keeps beating Templars in the polls we do so I assumed they would face the ERE if there was another poll.

*2nd edit*

Actually, Templars and France were tied in the 1st poll. But France is ahead in the 2nd poll and 3rd poll.

[Zim]

As long as France beat out the Templars by the end of this poll, they would be the second choice.

I think being in mainland Europe was considered a strength by at least some voters, because it's come up in a post or so supporting themover the last few polls. :yes:

Re:SS balancing, I would say armor values have increased, as at least DFKs have 2 lower defense than vanilla. However, attack ratings seem to have gone down for all units, and in the sace of the Vards are less than half the vanilla attack. If other horsearchers are like the Vards I did the custom battles last night with, then they have low attacks, but more arrows (maybe an illusion from firing more slowly?).


I, err, assumed the Templars would be the second option because there was a lot of objection to playing mainland Europe. That's incorrect? :embarassed:

:egypt:

[Ferret]

I'm sorry sir, no habla ingles.

you need to practice your Spanish, you just said he/she/it doesn't speak English :clown:

I don't think we need a run-off, ERE has almost double the votes of second place and even if we do why should the Templars be in it if they are last in this one? That makes no sense :inquisitive:

[Zim]

Lo siento, pero no entiendo una palabra usted hablando de.

Several years of Spanish means I've learned to butcher slightly more advanced sentences! :clown:


you need to practice your Spanish, you just said he/she/it doesn't speak English :clown:

I don't think we need a run-off, ERE has almost double the votes of second place and even if we do why should the Templars be in it if they are last in this one? That makes no sense :inquisitive:

[Privateerkev]

I don't think we need a run-off, ERE has almost double the votes of second place and even if we do why should the Templars be in it if they are last in this one? That makes no sense :inquisitive:

I don't think it will be the Templars. They came in 3rd in the last two polls. If we do it, it should be between France and ERE.

[Zim]

Definately not the Templars, unless they pass France up today. I'm not entirely sure where Ramses got the idea that the Templars would eb the second choice, but if the poll to were to end right now and a new one done, it would be the ERE and France. :yes:

That said, there's about half a day left for people to vote.

[FactionHeir]

Immediately on starting a new SS game I recalled one of the most irritating changes, the 'supply' system. :thumbsdown:

I'd be fine with a new poll, but FYI my France vote would go to the ERE. The Templars as imagined by SS simply do not interest me.

:egypt:

There is still time to change your vote to a better mod other than SS. I remember something wrong with the Has the King's eye or somesuch too. :grin2:

Btw, does SS use Lusted's balance or their own? Personally I really dislike Lusted's balance which is why I made my own.

[Zim]

Funny, aside from the titles I think the supply system was the big thing pushed here for helping realism. :clown:

SS won by a large enough margin I don't think there's much chance of changing our designated mod.

Edit: If I recall correctly, Ramses didn't vote for SS, but for BC.

If any undecideds are leaning one direction or the other I'd appreciate it if you consider voting before the limit expires. At this point I feel wierd about a runoff, because the ERE has as many votes as the other two combined. Theoretically a new poll would see a tie. More hopefully, someone might change their mind and one faction win. However, if noone did change their mind, we could see a faction win just because someone, believing this to be the "final" poll, didn't check back for a couple days. :sweatdrop:

Having the votes for both other factions be more than the ERE received would make me feel better about a runoff, and having the ERE have more than the votes of the others combined would make me feel better about forgoing a runoff.

Just a thought. :yes:

[_Tristan_]

And does SS keep the ERE in that eye-wrenching purple color ? Yuk...

It would be a big down for me and is also one of the reasosn why I chose France...

Imagine those big splashes of purple in our battle reports...(pukes all over the place)

Choose :france: :france: :france: :france: :france:


I promise I'll keep frogs and snails in garlic out of the menu... Come on...

[Zim]

Nope, complete reskin. Looks much, much better.


And does SS keep the ERE in that eye-wrenching purple color ? Yuk...

It would be a big down for me and is also one of the reasosn why I chose France...

Imagine those big splashes of purple in our battle reports...(pukes all over the place)

Choose :france: :france: :france: :france: :france:


I promise I'll keep frogs and snails in garlic out of the menu... Come on...

[FactionHeir]

So what color are they now, neon green? :clown:

[Privateerkev]

If any undecideds are leaning one direction or the other I'd appreciate it if you consider voting before the limit expires. At this point I feel wierd about a runoff, because the ERE has as many votes as the other two combined. Theoretically a new poll would see a tie. More hopefully, someone might change their mind and one faction win. However, if noone did change their mind, we could see a faction win just because someone, believing this to be the "final" poll, didn't check back for a couple days. :sweatdrop:

Having the votes for both other factions be more than the ERE received would make me feel better about a runoff, and having the ERE have more than the votes of the others combined would make me feel better about forgoing a runoff.

Just a thought. :yes:

If it helps, I am considering voting ERE in a runoff.

I wanted Templars partly because they are a Western Faction based in Outremer.

Now, I would have a choice between having a Western Faction, or being based in Outremer.

Being based in Outremer is more important to me than playing a Western Faction.

So, even though I am having fun playing a French Count in the Test Game, I would probably vote ERE.

Outremer is simply very very appealing to me. I spent pretty much all my time there in KotR. And Crusades is my favorite Kingdoms game. Even in my GC SP games I always go over and conquer it. It's just so fun... :yes:

[Zim]

FH, that remark isn't even worthy of this response. ~;p

PK, That does indeed help. It also gives me an idea. Maybe in lieu of running another "final" poll I can pm the Templar voters after this and give them a chance to change the vote to affect the final outcome. Since there are only 5 of them (and one has already expressed who they would change their vote to) it wouldn't be too hard. What do you think?

EDIT: I understand your fondness for Outremer. I spent most of my KOTR career there as well. :yes:

[FactionHeir]

I would vote France over ERE because we get crusades and can establish a far base in Outremer rather than starting there. The added difficulty of not being as central as ERE also makes PO a greater problem which is good.

[Zim]

So in the event of a Templar loss we have PK going over to the ERE and FH to France?

[Privateerkev]

PK, That does indeed help. It also gives me an idea. Maybe in lieu of running another "final" poll I can pm the Templar voters after this and give them a chance to change the vote to affect the final outcome. Since there are only 5 of them (and one has already expressed who they would change their vote to) it wouldn't be too hard. What do you think?

Sure. If enough of us say who we would switch to, then we'd get a good estimate of where the poll would end up. As long as the current ERE and France voters remain static.

[Zim]

I have it from AG that he would switch to the ERE.

Current tally

France: 7
ERE: 13

Pevergreen and rossah have not had the oppotunity to change their votes yet.

[Ramses II CP]

Yecch, the supply system is about as realistic as the movement rates and the relative upkeep costs of ships and... I guess what people are saying is that it's better than nothing? Not my opinion on the matter, if it can't be done in a fun way I'd rather it wasn't done at all. :dizzy2:

Oh, and yes, I voted for BC and SS6.0 IIRC. If there had been a winnowing poll I would've picked Vanilla Mod over SS 4.1, assuming a few things were 'updated.'

:egypt:

[Zim]

:laugh4: Have I started a trend with the many repeated polls on a single issue thing I've been doing?

Unless some kind of map mod was added to increase the number of settlements, I'd vote SS again were it narrowed down to it and Vanilla Mod.

We might also have to redo all the faction polls then, given the hideousness of vanilla MTW2's Byzantine faction color. :clown:


Yecch, the supply system is about as realistic as the movement rates and the relative upkeep costs of ships and... I guess what people are saying is that it's better than nothing? Not my opinion on the matter, if it can't be done in a fun way I'd rather it wasn't done at all. :dizzy2:

Oh, and yes, I voted for BC and SS6.0 IIRC. If there had been a winnowing poll I would've picked Vanilla Mod over SS 4.1, assuming a few things were 'updated.'

:egypt:

[FactionHeir]

Adding a map is a minor issue really. I've been looking for a mapper for VM for quite a while. Warluster had a good map built and we were debugging it when he dropped silent.

For the moment, I'm tending towards making it compatible with the Regions and Provinces mod which expands the BigMap Mod. Optional component obviously, but for the purpose of a PBM likely to be used.

[Ferret]

actually I have just thought of a major flaw in SS (sorry if it has already been mentioned-too many posts, too little time). Civil war is represented in game and results in around half of the in game avatars either rebelling or refusing to move if the faction leader has too little authority. This could ruin the game for some people, a 50/50 chance of being able to do nothing isn't very good. If we have another mod poll now my vote will move away from SS...

[Privateerkev]

actually I have just thought of a major flaw in SS (sorry if it has already been mentioned-too many posts, too little time). Civil war is represented in game and results in around half of the in game avatars either rebelling or refusing to move if the faction leader has too little authority. This could ruin the game for some people, a 50/50 chance of being able to do nothing isn't very good. If we have another mod poll now my vote will move away from SS...

Well that would suck...

Anyone with more experience with SS have any more info on this?

[Zim]

That is definately something that would give me pause. Potentially game wrecking. :sweatdrop:

BC has a few potential problems of it's own, like bugs that screw things up if a certain faction conquers territory x. They're thankfully very rare, but it may be a version or two before they're completely gone.

FH, if you could add a map mod to Vanilla Mod I'd vote for it, even if it would mean having to revisit the faction choice due to terrible ERE unit color and overpowered vards. :clown:


actually I have just thought of a major flaw in SS (sorry if it has already been mentioned-too many posts, too little time). Civil war is represented in game and results in around half of the in game avatars either rebelling or refusing to move if the faction leader has too little authority. This could ruin the game for some people, a 50/50 chance of being able to do nothing isn't very good. If we have another mod poll now my vote will move away from SS...

[FactionHeir]

VM has its own rebalance so no need to worry about overpowered Vards.

As for color, it depends on when we want to start. If there's still at least 3 weeks to that, then I can look into a color mod for the PBM. Strat map coloring is a no brainer, but unit recoloring takes a while.

[Zim]

I'm looking through the different SS version to see when/if that event was added. No luck so far.

[Zim]

Update: No mention of a rebellion event that I can find in the feature lists for the different factions. Maybe we can ask the guy who made the mod?

After a forums search I found many cryptic references to Civil Wars and at least one mention of not being able to move generals that get a certain trait.

Check post 9 here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110022&highlight=civil+war

More mentions here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99386&highlight=civil+war

And more: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112323&highlight=civil+war

[Ferret]

what are you questioning my knowledge :clown:

What happens is if your FL has low authority he has a chance of gaining the 'offends the nobility' trait. After this all the generals and family members will either get the 'supports the king' or a rebelious trait which will heavily decrease loyalty and sometimes remove the movement points to 0 of his whole army.

The reason so many mentioned that it happened after they were excommunicated is being so reduces authority by a couple of points. Could well break the game for us.

[Privateerkev]

The reason so many mentioned that it happened after they were excommunicated is being so reduces authority by a couple of points. Could well break the game for us.

Well, at least the ERE can't be excommunicated...

[Zim]

My thoughts exactly. Perhaps we need another mod poll? :yes:


what are you questioning my knowledge :clown:

What happens is if your FL has low authority he has a chance of gaining the 'offends the nobility' trait. After this all the generals and family members will either get the 'supports the king' or a rebelious trait which will heavily decrease loyalty and sometimes remove the movement points to 0 of his whole army.

The reason so many mentioned that it happened after they were excommunicated is being so reduces authority by a couple of points. Could well break the game for us.

[Ferret]

don't look at me :clown: my other ones have all ended in failure...

[Privateerkev]

From the threads Zim put up, it seems to come from the BBB mod which is included in SS. Which is unfortunate because the whole reason I wanted SS was for BBB.

Well... BC has the ERE...

Just a thought...

:shrug:

[Ferret]

yeah I'm gonna vote for BC if there is a new poll...though I won't vote ERE when there are so many more to chose from.

[Privateerkev]

yeah I'm gonna vote for BC if there is a new poll...though I won't vote ERE when there are so many more to chose from.

Yeah, like KoJ... :clown:

[Ferret]

you'd only vote for them so you could be Orlando Bloom :clown:

I'd rather have someone like the Ghaznavids or Kwarzehm Shah, maybe the Abbasids.

[Privateerkev]

you'd only vote for them so you could be Orlando Bloom :clown:

I'm much more partial to Raymond of Tripoli (played by Jeremy Irons) or King Baldwin (played by Ed Norton but you couldn't tell). Heck even Prince Guy would be cool to play.

But with Balaine (Orlando Bloom's character), I usually just send him out to the far bridge separating KoJ from Egypt and have him take abuse in my Crusades games. :laugh4:

[Zim]

If the movie portraits from the KOJ are anything like the ones for Makuria, they'll repeat for new avatars. I'm not sure we want to play a faction that risks us playing a large number of Orlando Blooms. :clown:

[Ferret]

AFAIK they do not repeat, they are one offs.

[Zim]

Really? It might not be so bad then. As Makuria I had three Samuel L. Jacksons at one point. Ayyubids didn't stand a chance. :clown:


AFAIK they do not repeat, they are one offs.

I pmed Tincow about the rebellion issue. For now I figure it's best to wait for his input. I'll declare a winner when the poll closes, but we'll have to face the possibility of starting all over again with the faction polls if the mod changes.

In the meantime how did everyone like the way these polls were set up? Too many factions eliminated each round? Too few? If I have to start them over at a later date I'll take any input I receive. :yes:

[Askthepizzaguy]

And why don't we just go with Lands to Conquer?

Broken crescent is absolutely fabulous, but compared to vanilla or SS it's a totally different game.

Lands to Conquer should give us a great game. That's my vote.

But I will go with Broken Crescent. Why does there even need to be a civil war?

[TinCow]

At what FL authority level does the rebellion kick in? If it's something low enough to be very rare, I would prefer to simply use the console to fix it on the rare occassions that it would happen. Scrapping the mod of preference over such an easily avoided thing seems silly to me.

[deguerra]

More importantly, if this is related to traits, why not just remove the relevant traits from the file?

FH knows his way around the Traits and Ancillaries file well, but I could prbly do it as well, if you want me to. Or am I missing something?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Exactly what drugs are being used by ATPG? :inquisitive:


I don't even drink coffee. This is all me, brother.

[Cecil XIX]

At what FL authority level does the rebellion kick in? If it's something low enough to be very rare, I would prefer to simply use the console to fix it on the rare occassions that it would happen. Scrapping the mod of preference over such an easily avoided thing seems silly to me.

That's true, and besides which if it's tied to one specific trait it'll be easy to fix.

[deguerra]

That's true, and besides which if it's tied to one specific trait it'll be easy to fix.

Does nobody read what I say?:smash: :clown:

[The Lemongate]

Why does there even need to be a civil war?

Clearly because we'll both be in the same game!

[Askthepizzaguy]

We already had our war. You wanna start another one??? BRING IT ONNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking:
Present your hand. PRESENT YOUR HAND I SAID!

Ok. One, two, three, four, I declare a thumb war. Almost gotcha, almost gotcha... there.

Shot you in the face with a crossbow. I win.

[Zim]

Announcement: Alright, the polls are closed and rossahh and pevergreen got back to me and said they prefer the ERE in a runoff, making it7 to 15 in the ERE's favor. It also looks like our mod fears aree taken care of. So, I can proudly announce that the official winner is the ERE! :birthday2: ~:cheers: :birthday2: ~:cheers: :birthday2:

[Cecil XIX]

Does nobody read what I say?:smash: :clown:

Saaahhh... My apologies. I know how frustrating that is. :shame:

[deguerra]

No worries Cecil. It happens from time to time, and I was only joking :D

[The Lemongate]

We already had our war. You wanna start another one??? BRING IT ONNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking:
Present your hand. PRESENT YOUR HAND I SAID!

Ok. One, two, three, four, I declare a thumb war. Almost gotcha, almost gotcha... there.

Shot you in the face with a crossbow. I win.


Damn! I knew I shoudda taken one of those turkish avatars with a face mask...

[FactionHeir]

I imagine there will be a lot of needed changes to SS before its PBMable then.

I don't have the mod so I can't look at it right now, but I suppose this among others may need to be removed:
- Rebellion system
- Bonus from Title ancillaries (we already have out own bonus system)
- Supply system

Anything else? Make a list :clown:

Oh, and if you have unit rebalance requests, I can deal with those too.

[Privateerkev]

I like that the titles give bonuses. I don't think their large bonuses so it shouldn't unbalance things too much but it does add flavor.

Plus, the ones that aren't attached to land can be given out by the FL to those that serve him well. I wouldn't mind the FL having a little more power. Especially because later in the game, his power will probably diminish.

Letting him give out a couple titles will be like KotR where the Kaiser picked the King (Viceroy) of Outremer.

[FactionHeir]

I figure it won't be much of an issue if they give boni such as law, happiness, income etc, but if they give attribute boni, this will affect our stat based influence system.

[Privateerkev]

I figure it won't be much of an issue if they give boni such as law, happiness, income etc, but if they give attribute boni, this will affect our stat based influence system.

Yeah but with the stat-cap, you can't use most of the stat bonuses until you rise up in the ranks.

NN can probably answer this better than anyone but it seems that most titles just give tax, happiness, loyalty, ect... I didn't see too many in his AAR's that gave changed command and such.

[Cecil XIX]

I see no reason to remove the supply system. Having experienced it first-hand via Deus Lo Vult I find it to be a charming system that adequately depicts one of the major perils of campaigning without being particularly stifling. It even models army moral.

[Ferret]

The province titles usually only affect taxation but on a rare occasion piety or a loyalty decrease. IIRC there is no title that affects command or chivalry/dread (and if there is I managed to miss it through 3 completed GCs)

I think there is an option to remove the supply system on install as well if we're going to remove it.

[Ramses II CP]

My main problem with the supply system was simply that I quickly stopped using generals to fight in my SP campaign as they were more of a hinderance than a help, which is about as realistic as it is fun. :thumbsdown:

That shouldn't be a problem in a KotR game, for obvious reasons. :laugh4: It will mean that banishment for any length of time is going to be a much worse punishment than it otherwise would be, IMHO anyway.

I didn't notice the titles doing anything meaningful. Wouldn't worry about them. Never had a rebellion either, but if we had another Elberhard I suppose it might be a problem?

:egypt:

[Zim]

I don't really care one way or another about the supply costs in the game, but if we change a lot of things won't the mod installation become more complicated? I remember that being a concern.

[FactionHeir]

Mod installation with changing one file in a given directory is about as complicated as changing all files in the same directory as you just dump the files all into that same folder.

[Zim]

I know a little bit about modding, FH. At least enough to install them. :clown:

I don't see the need to change so many things, but if you can put all the changed folders into a single download and make the installation process easy enough, I suppose we won't have any problems.

[Northnovas]

Yeah but with the stat-cap, you can't use most of the stat bonuses until you rise up in the ranks.

NN can probably answer this better than anyone but it seems that most titles just give tax, happiness, loyalty, ect... I didn't see too many in his AAR's that gave changed command and such.

I would not be worried about the stat-cap being affected. There may be a title or two the FL may have that would increase command. Otherwise it is tax and loyalty for the region.

[AussieGiant]

As much as it is very easy to do FH and you know pretty much everything there is about the game and it's logic systems, I don't want to mod a mod if we can possibly get away with it.

You have to take baby steps with me FH...otherwise I get all uncomfortable and just want to go back the vanilla :beam:

@ATPM,

you don't even drink coffee...jeez...this will be interesting then.

[FactionHeir]

You have to take baby steps with me FH...otherwise I get all uncomfortable and just want to go back the vanilla :beam:


Eh, which of the two vanilla? :clown: :grin:

We basically have to mod the mod at the least for RBGs and the rebellion trait system. So changing some other things in the trait file (the supply system) doesn't need any extra files.

[TinCow]

I agree with the majority about retinue titles and the supply system. Those two things were actually major reasons for me preferring SS in the first place. The titles help with RP and the supply system increases difficulty, both of which we want. The only thing I would be concerned with is making sure that the people who are the IC owners of various provinces are the only ones who can hold the in-game retinue titles. We could make a rule about it, but I would prefer if we could just have a gentleman's agreement that people will transfer or delete any titles they pick up to provinces that they do not own.

Also, there are several retinue titles that are essentially designed to be FL awarded. If we could get a list of those, we could give the FL a power to transfer those specific retinue titles to anyone he wants whenever he wants.

Regarding the mod and faction selection, I think we're about done with it. After the test game is over, we can do one final poll which is simply a 'confirmation' poll. We can simply ask two questions: 1) Do you agree with using SS 4.1 as the mod? and 2) Do you agree with playing ERE? Majority rules on both. Unless we have a majority dissenting on them, that should be the final decision.

[_Tristan_]

Better learn to type Megas Logosthethes if you want to adress the Chancellor :laugh4:

[TinCow]

Suggestions for all of the generic titles and terms in the rules are welcome, along with abbreviations if they are too absurdly long. "Megas" might be a good substitute for "Megas Logosthethes" if that is indeed the proper title to use.

[FactionHeir]

Just call him chancellor :clown:

[AussieGiant]

Eh, which of the two vanilla? :clown: :grin:

We basically have to mod the mod at the least for RBGs and the rebellion trait system. So changing some other things in the trait file (the supply system) doesn't need any extra files.

There will certainly be some small alterations FH, but removing the "Supply" function is not my preference because it's one of the reasons I like it. Plus the titles are going to be great fun to achieve.

I just want to be called:

Stratègos (GR): commander; general.

or

Stratègos hypatos (GR): 'supreme commander'; Greek term for consul (LA).

At some point in the game...then I'm happy :clown:

[FactionHeir]

Too bad Xenophonia has been discontinued. Having our generals actually speak greek would have been fun.

[AussieGiant]

Too bad Xenophonia has been discontinued. Having our generals actually speak greek would have been fun.

That's a shame :clown:

I wonder if Igno will find the Greek equivalent of "mein"? :beam:

[Northnovas]

That's a shame :clown:

I wonder if Igno will find the Greek equivalent of "mein"? :beam:

LOL! :laugh4:

Just thought I would bring up something with the SS 4.1. I had my first CTD on the AI turn. After some reading this is a problem that occurs in the AI turn phase and it appears to occur on a random turn and no specific faction. I was on turn 171 in the game.
The problem arises when the AI is scripted to do something that may not exist in the game at the time. "trigger not found"
In may case it was "SuppliedBySea".

I had to go back a third save which was 5 game turns to get pass the event that was causing the CTD. Starting from save 1 and 2 would be a CTD.

I am bringing this up for when we get to this point deciding on the game/faction to play. This is my first CTD with a mod. I don't know if anyone else has had similar issues but just something to consider. We are fortunate to have members who understand the inside mechanics of the game to address issues. I think stability has to a priority with so many potential saves in the PBM gameplay.

[FactionHeir]

If its scripts that's causing it, then we may need to remove some AI scripts before we start - that is unless people rather want the AI scripts and the risk of a corrupted save that forces us to replay half a term.

[Northnovas]

Well that is the concern I would not want to have to replay half a Chancellor's term. I guess the issue would be what would be taking away removing some or all AI script.

I just want everyone to be aware of potential issues before we start anything. I have been very fortunate with game play and no issues with CTD for MTW II.

[Ferret]

That's a shame :clown:

I wonder if Igno will find the Greek equivalent of "mein"? :beam:

apparently it is 'μου', though I doubt anyone has that on their keyboard :clown:

I'll leave it to Igno to find that in English letters.