Change religion to culture.

[Slim_Ghost]

I have an idea. Why don't you guys convert religion in MT2W into culture in EBII?In this way, only regional units can recruited if the native culture is low,and conversely the native units can be recruited if the native culture is 90% or greater. Cultures can change through holding a settlement for a period of time, like in MT2W: Britannia. So instead of governments one would have to wait for several years, or decades if the settlement is very distant from the faction homeland, in order to recruit local units.

I feel this adds to realism, as I really think that if a faction takes over a settlement after a long enough given time, then surely they must be able to recruit some local units, after their peoples have settled into those lands. Just like after Megas Alexandros conquered Asia, units of Greek ethnicity can be recruited from those areas.

As Sweboz I have captured Rome for over a century and a half. Realistically, the Germanic peoples would be migrate to the massacred cities of Italy from my now overpopulated cities back in Germania and Scandanavia. It's ridiculous historically that I can't recruit any Germanic units even now, as if there are NO Germanic people in Rome despite a century in Germanic rule. I mean, come on!

In the meanwhile, I can recruit Alan Nobles in Pella in my Sauromatae campaign, Apparently the Sarmatians can migrate to whatever cities they want (and in a bloody short time too), but the Sweboz can't.

[Cartaphilus]

I agree with all of that.

:yes:

Is this the use for the "priests" that somebody was talking about in other posts?

[eggthief]

Eh I think that this was already going to happen.

[General Appo]

Something like this at least. Just a small tip Ghost to make your Sweboz campaign enjoyable:
In my Sweboz campaign I took the Sápmi quite early in the game and established a L4 goverment to represent them becoming my subordinate ally without me actually doing much there. The area was pretty non-interesting for me anyway, I only took at so that Skándzá and Auwjögötánöz would have another place to trade with and bring in some more income to my wars against the Gauls and Romani.
Anyway, after controlling it for almost 50 years it had started to get a bit crowded, Asodát was even a large city. Having some unrest problems plus realising that this really wasn´t historical, that so many Balts would stay on one place, I started recruiting as many Baltic soldiers as I could. Once I had two full stacks of them, both led by a Client General, I marched them east for Gayu-Thissakata, easily taking it. Once I had taken it I disbanded almost all my forces, and edited the files to make Baltic units recruitable there.
In this way I had simulated an area getting overcrowded and a part of the population migrating to new areas and settling there.
Just a little something you might want to try, like if the Roma thing really bothers you can always temper with the files.

[brymht]

Does this mean that in Med 2 total War you will NOT be able to recruit any regional units in a conquered province once its culture get over the "tipping point"?

For instance, if you conquery Liguria, and it is eventually mostly Romanized, will you then only be able to create Roman units, and NOT ligurian units?

[General Appo]

Hey, no team meber has said anything about that, this is just a bunch of fans speculating.

[Slim_Ghost]

Does this mean that in Med 2 total War you will NOT be able to recruit any regional units in a conquered province once its culture get over the "tipping point"?

For instance, if you conquery Liguria, and it is eventually mostly Romanized, will you then only be able to create Roman units, and NOT ligurian units?
To be fair, the ligurian units can be recruited in a ligurian city regarldess of the culture level. Only that you can't hire the high-tire ones if the culture is too low for them.

After all, historically migration can not totally flush out the local natives living there. Unless I am mistaken?

[Slim_Ghost]

Something like this at least. Just a small tip Ghost to make your Sweboz campaign enjoyable:
In my Sweboz campaign I took the Sápmi quite early in the game and established a L4 goverment to represent them becoming my subordinate ally without me actually doing much there. The area was pretty non-interesting for me anyway, I only took at so that Skándzá and Auwjögötánöz would have another place to trade with and bring in some more income to my wars against the Gauls and Romani.
Anyway, after controlling it for almost 50 years it had started to get a bit crowded, Asodát was even a large city. Having some unrest problems plus realising that this really wasn´t historical, that so many Balts would stay on one place, I started recruiting as many Baltic soldiers as I could. Once I had two full stacks of them, both led by a Client General, I marched them east for Gayu-Thissakata, easily taking it. Once I had taken it I disbanded almost all my forces, and edited the files to make Baltic units recruitable there.
In this way I had simulated an area getting overcrowded and a part of the population migrating to new areas and settling there.
Just a little something you might want to try, like if the Roma thing really bothers you can always temper with the files.


Hmm okay then. I just might want to add recruitment of some germanic warbands in Roma now.

[Irishmafia2020]

Culturally based recruitment is a big feature of the Britannia campaign, and it would make sense to add it into the game. After all, how did Greeks end up in India? They migrated in the wake of Alexander naturally, and spread their culture where they went. I personally would like to see culture exist rather than religion, but because it is an organic and evolving process, I would prefer to see an area acculturated slowly, like maybe 1% or less per year. Religious buildings could still exist of course, and they could give trade/soldiering/public order bonuses just like they do in EB 1. I truly hope this culture thing makes it into the game, and i have advocated for it in other threads myself.... Oh yes, one more thing, you could still have the native and regional MIC's both available, but the troops that are trainable in each one would change based upon the local culture percentage.... Then you could train Greek/German/Celtic units in areas that have been controlled in the game by all three factions, rather than only the "traditional" faction who created the city! Just a thought...

[Cartaphilus]

Then you could train Greek/German/Celtic units in areas that have been controlled in the game by all three factions, rather than only the "traditional" faction who created the city! Just a thought...

That's very interesting.

Why not, if you play Arverni (for ex.), recruit hastati in Athens if the romani had hold it for a century?

[Slim_Ghost]

I just thought of this idea.

Building Government type I and II will allow the faction's culture to grow and allow recruitment of the faction's units, while building Government type III and IV instead will make the DOMINANT culture of the settlement grow and allows units according to the cultures to be recruited.

(I implied DOMINANT culture of that city is because I have thought of a situation where Rome has been captured and then assimilated into the Carthaginian culture, thus if the Arveni would capture it and then made it as an independent vassal, the city would continue to remain Phoenician).

But still, this poses a problem in case for multicultural factions like Pontos, where Galatian heavy spearmen are considered the native units for that Eastern faction. Perhaps EBII can change things by making the Galatian units a type III and IV unit instead?

[eggthief]

I like that idea Ghost, but wont it be a bit weird to raise an army that was originaly from a faction that is death by the time u get the settlement?

[blacksnail]

Hey, no team meber has said anything about that, this is just a bunch of fans speculating.
I should really turn this into my .sig.

[brymht]

Whew hoo!! Baseless conjecture rawks!

[General Appo]

Why not, if you play Arverni (for ex.), recruit hastati in Athens if the romani had hold it for a century?

Ehh... because not even the Romans ever did despite holding Athens for much more then a century? I see this will have to be looked over carefully, some factions are simply less likely to migrate large populations into conquered areas, such as the Romani.

[hellenes]

Ehh... because not even the Romans ever did despite holding Athens for much more then a century? I see this will have to be looked over carefully, some factions are simply less likely to migrate large populations into conquered areas, such as the Romani.

That didnt stop the hellenes joining the legions....

[General Appo]

Unless I truly am I dope, they never joined the Hastati.

[Cartaphilus]

Unless I truly am I dope, they never joined the Hastati.

Yes, they never did it.
But when Rome became and Empire the provinces' men could join the army in better conditions than before. And this tendency grew along time.

[hellenes]

Yes, they never did it.
But when Rome became and Empire the provinces' men could join the army in better conditions than before. And this tendency grew along time.

exactly and that needs to be represented in EB2....
Same as the pandodapoi....

[General Appo]

Yeah, but Cartaphilus said "Why not, if you play Arverni (for ex.), recruit hastati in Athens if the romani had hold it for a century?"
I have nothing against Romanised units being recruited by non-roman factions, but I do have something against units being recruited in unhistorical areas, especially by factions that never even held those areas and never even commanded those units.

[hellenes]

Yeah, but Cartaphilus said "Why not, if you play Arverni (for ex.), recruit hastati in Athens if the romani had hold it for a century?"
I have nothing against Romanised units being recruited by non-roman factions, but I do have something against units being recruited in unhistorical areas, especially by factions that never even held those areas and never even commanded those units.

1st we are playing WHAT IF the moment we click to start the campaign....
2nd what I meant was that after the republic the legions were reqruited in distant areas....comprised of local people....Not hastati but regional imperial legionares....
Anyway I think that 100 years of assimilation wont have any problem reqruiting locals...

[Cartaphilus]

1st we are playing WHAT IF the moment we click to start the campaign....
2nd what I meant was that after the republic the legions were reqruited in distant areas....comprised of local people....Not hastati but regional imperial legionares....
Anyway I think that 100 years of assimilation wont have any problem reqruiting locals...

That's it.

:2thumbsup:

[Ludens]

Well, the Germans conquered Gaul after 300 years of assimilation, but they never bothered recruiting legionaries. It could have happened, no doubt, but it goes very far into "what if" territory, and it's too much to expect the team to include all (or even many)"what if" scenarios.

[Cartaphilus]

Right.

But what I said was simple and pure speculation. I didn't pretend to recruit hastati for the Arverni in Athens.

[General Appo]

Once again, I have nothing against the whole legionarie thing, just against the hastati stuff you mentioned in your first post on the subject.

[Irishmafia2020]

Well, you would still have specific national units, so The Averni in Athens might not be able to recruit hastati, or even Legionaires (they would be "national units" - not regional units) but they might be able to recruit an Italian general or something. More importantly, if the Romans conquered Britain, then after their culture reached a certain point (50%) they could begin to recruit legionaries or other national units. A better example might be that if KH invaded Spain and held it for 100 years, then they would be able to recruit Classical Hoplites in previously Barbarian areas. Of course, if you were using priests (Under a different name) to spread culture, then you could focus them in one province. I don't know what you would call the agent (not a priest) but in some areas that you did not choose to invest your time in, the culture would stay native - and you would never be able to recruit certain national units. Think about it, Greek settlers flooded the near east, their culture changed warfare in that area for hundreds of years, Romans conquered dozens of tribes, and eventually Romanized them and recruited soldiers from everywhere, the People of India were conquered by waves of invaders who had a cultural impact, and Iberia and Carthage also exchanged fighting styles and weapons. All of this could be represented in game if you allow "cultural drift" to impact national and regional MIC recruitment.

[blacksnail]

There are some technical and historical issues with doing it exactly as you're talking about.

[Irishmafia2020]

Fair enough, I don't know what is possible with the Kingdoms engine, but I still think that some kind of changing "culture" could add some depth to the game, but ultimately I do not know enough about modding MTW2 to propose a practical solution. EB is well recognized for its historical accuracy, so I wouldn't want to advocate something that clashed with the mod's philosophy anyway....

[blacksnail]

No, that's a fine suggestion - I didn't mean to shut you down. I'm just not sure it would work due to a) hardcoding and b) the way we're hoping to represent certain things. It's always a minor tragedy to say "this is a neat idea we likely won't use," but that's just how things go when it comes to a consistent internal vision.

[Zimm4973]

I think we all need to remember that EB is not about reenacting history its about giving us the chance to or to play out a what if scenario in a way we like and to give us the tools to to both starting from a historically accurate start

WHAT DO U THINK:yes: :no: :dizzy2:

xSpore rules

[Cambyses]

Maybe its as simple as adding another MIC building to the tree that has very complex pre-requisites and takes a long time to build. That way you can ensure a province has been in the right hands for long enough. I imagine the AI will need a shortcut to enable it though...?

[blacksnail]

I'm not sure what you mean. What are you ultimately trying to do, and how are you proposing to do it?

[Cambyses]

Thanks for your patience.

I mean in order to represent a faction which controls an area for a very long period of time being able to recruit its own national troops due to cultural assimilation etc as discussed earlier in this thread. That should be very difficult to achieve both in reality and in EB.

I dont even know what is possible, but a special building with, say, a 20 year+ (minimum 80 turns, yes) build time and -10 law or something - which then allows a province to build a local MIC that recruits faction specific local troops. ie Hastati, Principes, Velites and Ascensi for Romani. The prerequisites must be a lvl 2 govt in a province and quite a few other faction specifics buildings to be specified by yourself.

It might mean changing the MIC system slightly so that all factions have a Romani type environment. ie they cant originally build local MICs outside of lvl 1 govt territories. A third MIC building for "allied" troops could come in. So ie for lusotannan all Iberians might be allies not national.

Alterantively the current MIC system could be maintained in most provinces but the extra MIC type would be the one that allows the local faction specific troops to be trained.

Romani arent perhaps the best example of this. But the premise that subjects within an empire eventually gain the franchise and would join the regular military, as every large empire must - surely - have a structured army is sound I believe.

In addition it might mean relooking at the govt types assigned to each faction.

Anyway, just a thought that has gone on a bit too long

[Ludens]

I dont even know what is possible, but a special building with, say, a 20 year+ (minimum 80 turns, yes) build time and -10 law or something - which then allows a province to build a local MIC that recruits faction specific local troops. ie Hastati, Principes, Velites and Ascensi for Romani. The prerequisites must be a lvl 2 govt in a province and quite a few other faction specifics buildings to be specified by yourself.
I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it worked that way historically. To use your example, Rome did not recruit Hastati, Principes, Velites, etc. anywhere but in Italy. The other great expanding culture of the era, the Hellenistic one, did recruit "factional units" in their new territories, but they recruited these from migrated Hellenes, not natives. The natives had their own units, and were only allowed into Hellenic units when the successors started to run out of Hellenes. Apparently, two hundred years of domination by the Hellenes had been unable to transform the original culture, and it was only manpower problems that convinced their leaders to expand the franchise. Rome seems to have been unique in allowing different peoples into its core army, and this was a late development.

[Dumbass]

The culture idea sounds really good. However, if implemented, it should take a really long time (I'm talking 100 years) to fully "culturise" a new province. Also, culture should not have as bad a public order hit.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Yeah, culture is a good idea, but as I understand it, the EB-team has come up with something different for religion. We'll just have to see what suprises they have in store for us!:yes:

[Cambyses]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it worked that way historically. To use your example, Rome did not recruit Hastati, Principes, Velites, etc. anywhere but in Italy. The other great expanding culture of the era, the Hellenistic one, did recruit "factional units" in their new territories, but they recruited these from migrated Hellenes, not natives. The natives had their own units, and were only allowed into Hellenic units when the successors started to run out of Hellenes. Apparently, two hundred years of domination by the Hellenes had been unable to transform the original culture, and it was only manpower problems that convinced their leaders to expand the franchise. Rome seems to have been unique in allowing different peoples into its core army, and this was a late development.

Sorry its taken me so long to reply. I appreciate your answer but it has triggered further thoughts in my feeble brain. :idea2:

Firstly, yes, Rome is not a good example in many ways. However eventually they did recruit "factional units" in a large part of their empire. Those parts that had the franchise and could be trusted. Many (although not all) of these were descendants of Romans who had migrated to an area. For the game's purposes however this distinction does seem somwhat moot. There were people in a province who would sign up as legionnaries, that's what we need to know. So, no, Rome never did recruit hastati in Athens, but instead over the course of several hundred years they changed the structure of their entire army, including recruitment. This is of course represented in EB1 as the Marian reforms.

Then, I was thinking, what of other empires? Well, the Achaemenids would probably be the perfect example from my point of view, especially the recruitment of the Immortals. of course they are slightly out of EB's time frame, but they remained relevant to the ancient world until and arguably even after the coming of Islam. Ive always felt the more "tribal" the faction is, the more likely they would have adopted, as such, a much looser system of control.

The Carthaginians - are a more topical example perhaps - they also showed signs that they would train and equip people from other regions in a manner similar to their own troops. Note, not the same.

Your comments about the Hellenes are obviously very valid, assimilation was never that civilizations strongpoint. But then again what was Baktria, for example, other than a Greek colony? Hellenic type troops recruitable in the furthest East of the Seleucid kingdom.

How to represent this in the game? Well, maybe to add on my initial suggestion that troops recruited in this manner from other regions would get a morale penalty, is that possible, a "negative bonus"?

Anyway, I just feel it would add a good sense of progression in the game, for many factions. Clearly there is a limit to what EB can do with the engine, social infrastructure, distribution of the franchise, settling veterans etc etc etc. But we will just have to fill such blanks with our imagination.

Well, that's it, just wanted to share my thoughts :juggle2:

[Ludens]

I am not sure if I agree with your examples. Bactria had actually quite a decent Hellenic population at the game's start due to migrations and earlier Achaemenid deportations. You'll note that their units still distinguish between Hellenes and easterners. It's probably a bit too easy for them to recruit Hellenic units, because the population couldn't have been that big, but they sure had the capability to do so. The Carthaginians didn't really have their own fighting style to speak of, at least not by the time of the mod. They supplied the officer corps and the elite units, but not the rank-and-file of the Carthaginian army. Iberians in Carthaginian service still fought like Iberians. There was no enfranchisement either. I know less about the Acheamenids, but I am pretty sure that they didn't train their local levies to fight in the Persian manner. These locals weren't enfranchised, and so wouldn't have been hugely concerned with the welfare of the Persian empire. It's bad policy to train potential disloyal soldiers.

I am also afraid a morale penalty would would not work, for three reasons. Firstly, we don't know how or whether they work in R:TW, secondly we cannot set them for specific units, and thirdly it would only serve to confuse the A.I.

Don't get me wrong, you've got a point, and I guess the EB team is thinking along the same lines. However, cultural assimilation and/or enfranchisement are slow, tricky issues that take many years and probably a lot of political infighting as well. I don't think it realistic that the Makedones should build a "assimilation" structure in Rome to recruit Pezhetairoi there.

[Cartaphilus]

But now Rome can build type II governments in what is now Poland (if the recruitment viewer doesn't lie).
This is incredible, when romans never crossed the Elba.
So, please, change it.

[artaxerxes]

Those ideas you're suggesting could make the attempts of Seleucids and Baktrians to 'hellenize' the East more apparent in the game. In EB you really only have the military settler colony, but one of the great problems of those dynasties was their attempt of attracting Greek and Macedonian settlers to the east, so as to stabilize their rule over a population otherwise rather alien to their own culture. Fx the Seleucid empire could start out being very culturally weak, and then if the ruler is able to divert focus to strengthening hellenic culture, you might be able to stop provinces from revolting.

This would also better represent the disintegration of the Seleucid empire. In EB it's usually conquered by Ptolemies, but apart from the easternmost provinces, it doesn't seem to have the cultural difficulties that the real Seleucid empire had...

[blacksnail]

But now Rome can build type II governments in what is now Poland (if the recruitment viewer doesn't lie).
This is incredible, when romans never crossed the Elba.
So, please, change it.
Please make requests for corrections to EB1 in the EB1 forum. The small team who is collecting those are not usually looking here and won't see your request.

[Ludens]

But now Rome can build type II governments in what is now Poland (if the recruitment viewer doesn't lie).
This is incredible, when romans never crossed the Elba.
So, please, change it.

One might suppose the EB Romani team would have their reasons for doing this. Possibly because the Romans incorporated the various Celtic people with great success and IIRC made a serious attempt at doing the same with the Germans (until Teutoburger forrest, that is). However, I too admit I am not sure why this was included.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Roman Type2 areas do not represent where they historically ruled. They represent what they could have integrated into the Roman Empire were to have ever conquered it.

[Cartaphilus]

Roman Type2 areas do not represent where they historically ruled. They represent what they could have integrated into the Roman Empire were to have ever conquered it.

I answered this in the FAQ.

But in Spanish your point is named: "mantenella y no enmendalla". :beam:

[Cyclops]

This question of using the religion in EB 2 has come up before.

I had a response in the "7 cultures" thread last year.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1769944#post1769944

I would refine that a bit further.

Nomad (Early nomad factions, any province with nomad resource)

Tribal (many "barbarian" settlements and factions, perhaps later Saka and Sauromatae)

Eastern/divine Monarchy (Diadochi, perhaps Averni)

Popular Monarchy/Tyranny (late Rome)

Democracy/Republic (Republican Rome, Certain Greek States)

Commercial Oligarchy (Carthage, maybe settlements like Rhodes)

Theocratic (no actual factions, but present as local culture in Egypt and maybe India)

I like the idea of players having a basic political orientation (eg Monarchic) and then a set of building options that mesh or clash with that orientation.

Can a faction change culture during the game? If so Rome moving from Republican to Monarchic would bring about your civil wars with settlements revolting away from the new monarchic govt because tyhey were still Republican, until heavily garrisoned/rebuilt.

I'd also argue that all the nomad factions were monarchys waiting to happen, and although their starting settlements should have nomad political culture the faction culture should be Eastern Monarchy or tribal (or if possible transform to that as part of their urbanisation reforms).

May I speculate on a system? Each faction can build 2 or 3 tiers of MIC in each of the 7 culture types (except theocratic which gives big haoppiness bonuses but no troops).

Each gives an ascending conversion bonus to that culture type, and makes available troops associated with that political culture. Nomad gives HA's, Monarchies give elite horse or bodyguard units, democracy gives pike/hoplite, tribal gets your fierce warrior types. If a Roman wants hoplites he has to let democracy flourish, which is OK for the republic but not so good in the Principate.

If you want decent troops from a competing politcal system you'd better balance them with other buildings giving your political type a boost: you could have a three step political control tree for your faction's politcal culture giving an ascending conversion bonus.

This would be like the current faction/local MIC system, just with a little more resolution. To get greek and skythian units in the Crimea you'd need to build 2 MIC streams rather than one.

I wonder this meshes with the type I-IV system? Maybe the level of govt could limit the level of you political control tree (so its harder to pacify "non core" areas without garrisons)? I'd argue that type IV's should only allow building monarchic MIC's past level 1: they are essentially local strongmen loyal to a foreign master, is that fair?

Anyway I'm just speculating on matters I don't have the skills to mod.

[Foot]

That is very nice. Makes me jealous that I hadn't come up with it. What is quite nice with it is that you can have a relatively high conversion rate without upsetting things too much: political systems are far more fluid than cultural ones when it comes to change.

It certainly is a more simple system than what I've been working on indoors, yet I hope that you will approve of what we eventually bring out with EBII. More on that later.

Foot

[Cyclops]

That is very nice. Makes me jealous that I hadn't come up with it. What is quite nice with it is that you can have a relatively high conversion rate without upsetting things too much: political systems are far more fluid than cultural ones when it comes to change.

Thank you very much.


It certainly is a more simple system than what I've been working on indoors, yet I hope that you will approve of what we eventually bring out with EBII. More on that later.

Foot

Judging by the superb work in EB, and the mouth watering detail in the EB2 stelae, I am pretty sure we will all approve.

(Especially if you include Numdia~;)

[BozosLiveHere]

The multiple MIC promoting different religions is cool but not very viable, as the game only allows us to promote the faction's own religion.

[SFS2006]

a little advice:
I have found this guide to adding religion

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=167440

it seems that 10 religions or cultures are possible and not only 7.