Mongol Unit mix

[barocca]

I know this has been done before,
but we are looking at the pointy end right now

The Mongols are getting their Shogun Mix of units,
plus Golden Horde Warriors from Medieval,

what else do they need?
how strong?
why?


DO we want to give the Mongol's any anti-cav cav?


DO they need any other infantry types?


WHAT about when the Mongol's face guns and monks?
('cause that's one scenario i loved with the mods made for shogun)


WHY did they NOT bring any chinese troop types with them?
Do we want a couple for "what if's"?


We CAN go crazy for SP mode, (well, kinda) so for SP you can suggest plenty.

:bow:

[Orda Khan]

Hello Barocca,
They DID take Chinese troops, the vast majority of the invasion force were Song Chinese. I already suggested units.
To NOT give Mongol cav anti cav bonus would not make sense, this is why I suggested GH HC unit for a Yuan Imperial HC unit armed with a mace/sword that could mirror, somewhat, the JHC. The MI HC unit could have the anti cav bonus and be a mix of YC/NC. Not as fast as the Yari but better armoured.
The other units are all listed, with suggested costs and abilities. I'm sure these could be fine tuned into balance

....Orda

[barocca]

i have been unable to find the post listing costs and abilities,

the TMS units equate to

MHC (armoured), lance
MLC (unarmoured), axe and bow

Golden Horde Warriors - bow, sword

Korean Guard - polearm
Korean Spearmen - spear
Korean Javelin/Skirmisher - javelin, dagger
Korean Grenadiers - grenade, dagger


the STW/WE bifs have been recoloured, resorted and restored and will be used.
Several MTW/VI bifs will readily lend themselves to Mongol Units,


THIS LIST is from a post by Yoshitsune,
and not all can possibly be in the game

Mongol Heavy Cavalry (regular, lance or bow)
Mongol Light Cavalry (regular, bow)
Chinese Guard Heavy Infantry (regular, sword and shield)
Han-chun (north Chinese) Medium Infantry (regular, armed with sword or spear and shield)
Han-chun Crossbowmen and archers (regular, medium armour)
Korean Medium Infantry (regular, spear and 'pavise' shield)
Korean Light Archer skirmishers (regular)
counter-weight catapult (stones or 'thunder-crash' bombs)

Hsin-fu-chun (ex-Sung south Chinese) Medium Infantry (irregular, spear and shield)
Hsin-fu-chun Crossbowmen and archers (irregular, medium armour)
Hsin-fu-chun Light Archer skirmishers
Hsin-fu-chun Firelance skirmishers (irregular, medium armour)
Hsin-fu-chun Handgunner skirmishers (irregular, medium armour) (circa 1288)
Southern Tribal Medium Cavalry (irregular, light spear/javelin and shield)i simply need to know what units you would like to see,
their weakness/strengths and their rough stats / costs

:bow:

[Orda Khan]

MLC ... Perhaps more accuracy than JCA and with better melee abilities but not as strong as YC or NC...... 700 koku
MHC .. WITH anti cav bonus, not as fast as YC. I see this unit as being a sort of YC/NC hybrid. Capable of beating both in melee it is still slower than YC, allowing the Japanese player the option to pin and rear, etc.....1000 koku

YIC (Yuan Imperial Cav) .. A carbon copy JHC....1200 koku
YHA (Yuan Horsearchers) .. Carbon copy JCA but with less armour (I don't know the beta8 stats, so I don't know what JCA have).....500 koku

On to infantry...
KGM (Korean Guardsman) .. A NI in most ways, though with less armour and faster. A combination of NI and YS......700 koku
KS (Korean Spearman) .. Carbon copy YA (you can't make this unit weaker than rice planting peasants).....200 koku
KSk (Korean Skirmishers) .. Possibly use the Murrabatin inf stats? I can't remember if they were the ones with shields, I think they were. Whatever the case, they should be no better than Teppo in melee....200 koku
YIA (Yuan Imperial Archers) .. Carbon copy SA?......400 koku
TB (Thunder Bombers) .. Now I don't know whether this unit would really add anything to the battle but I would be inclined to drop it and think of another option.....

SC (Song Crossbowmen) .. The addition of this unit would give the Mongol player his 'guns' for MP shoot outs. It could be similar to the Portugese Teppo. The Turkish Crossbow sprites could be used.....300 koku.

.......Orda

[barocca]

hello Orda

i'm with you on wanting mongols to go up against the sengoku era samurai,
remember i did exactly that with my campaign mod for shogun-warlords,

many thanks for finding that post for me,
i had not thought of crossbows i'll get to work on that - (which unit exactly are you thinking of?)

(out of 50 bif folders i have only 6 spare folders left)
(VI released with 38 + 10 customs + 2 "forgotten folders" = 50)

:bow:

[Orda Khan]

i had not thought of crossbows i'll get to work on that - (which unit exactly are you thinking of?)
Tbh, I can't remember all the VI units any more. I am of the understanding that the sprite and animation are one? That's why I suggested the Turkish crossbow unit, it does not have a pavise. If you can give the crossbow animation to a Korean unit, better still. (I make no effort to hide the fact that this part is over my head)

.......Orda

[barocca]

lets start the argument rolling shall we??

R'as is right about possible mulitple Era's in the future,
for now, for MP, I was hoping we would need only one era, with people settling what to take before battle,
"free-for-all" is still on my list of things i'd love to play.

maybe 3 era's then, sengoku, mongol and free-for-all

Samurai get Ashi-Archers (a modified mtw bif file),

EDIT -> EVENTUALLY Monks will get their own cav and infantry, they will not be as heavily armoured as the samurai, but a touch more fanatical - i have NO desire to balance a monk faction for MP, as long as they dont become a steamroller they'll eventually add some spice to the mix is all i wish.

but these guys we want to try to balance.
Mongol's, Korean's and Chinese.
In rough order of strength/morale
(note => is slightly more than, :: = is equal, :: =< slighlty less than, :: < less than)

Mongol Heavy Cavalry (lance) (no anti-cav) => NI/JHC
Mongol Light Cavalry (bow/axe) (armour piercing) => JCA & = NI (but less armour)

Yuan Imperial Heavy Cavalry (sword) = JHC (but has shield)
Yuan Imperial Horse Archers (bow) = JCA (but sightly less armour)

Yuan Imperial Guard Heavy Infantry (sword) (shield) = ND (similar attack, more armour)
Yuan Imperial Archers (bow/sword) (shield) = (GoldenHordeWarriors) (=WM ??????)

Han-Chun Medium Infantry (sword) =<ND
Han-Chun Medium Infantry (spear) =<YS
Han-Chun Crossbowmen (x-bow) = Teppo/Ashi-Xbow
Han-Chun Archers (bow) =< SA

Korean Guard (halberd) (armour piercing) (shield) = NI (less armour)
Korean Medium Infantry (spear) (shield) => YA
Korean Light Archers (bow) = Ashi Bowman (<SA <YA)

Korean Conscript Spearmen (spear) = YA
Korean Conscript Skirmishers (javelin) = no real equiv but "Ashi" quality
Korean Conscript Grenadiers (thunder bomb) = no real equiv but "Ashi" quality

Song Tribal Medium Cavalry (spear) or (sword) or (bow) + (shield)


ALSO could make Song Tribal Infantry (i have a couple of suitable unit bifs)
but see no real point except for the second Mongol Invasion in Single Player mode


:bow:

[Orda Khan]

Hello Barocca,
That's a large list there, may I offer a suggestion?
Please don't think I am being critical when I say the unit roster is too long, I am sure it will introduce some fun in SP campaign.

For MP, I think the simplicity of unit choice is what made STW so good and this simplicity should be considered when refining a Mongol roster. The Japanese stats already used in this mod should be carried over to the Mongol era (with or without guns'n'monks) and the Mongol unit stats based on these. I think play balance would be best achieved this way.

Out of interest, have you ever considered a Korean faction? Remember, Japan attempted an invasion of Korea during the Sengoku period (well just after I suppose) There are a number of handy units already mentioned that would fit neatly into their roster, making this another interesting option.

I have looked at the 11b unit stats, I'll offer some starting stats for the Mongol units if you like?
And if Beta8 is going to be tested, I'll install it and come along for the ride

.......Orda

[Orda Khan]

Some tentative stats ....

Song Crossbowman
Men: 60
Cost 300
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -7
Defense factor: -4 (-7)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 0
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 12
Ammo: 20
Reload: 21 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.12
Lethality: 72%
Power: 4
Armor modifier: 0.015

Korean Skirmishers
Men: 60
Cost 300
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -2
Defense factor: 1
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 8
Charge speed: 10
Ammo: 3
Reload: 4 sec
Range 50 meters
Accuracy: 0.12
Lethality: 20%
Power: 4
Armor modifier: 1.0

Yuan Imperial Archers
Men: 60
Cost 400
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 0
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10
Charge speed: 12
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 12%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0

Korean Spearman
Men: 60
Cost 200
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -1 (4)
Defense factor: -1 (-4)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 14

Korean Guardsman
Men: 60
Cost 700
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 4
Armor: 4
Morale bonus: 7
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10
Charge speed: 12

Yuan Imperial Heavy Cavalry
Men: 60
Cost 1200
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 3
Defense factor: 5
Armor: 5
Morale bonus: 8
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 20
Charge speed: 22

Mongol Heavy Cavalry
Men: 60
Cost 1000
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 3 (4)
Defense factor: 3
Armor: 4
Morale bonus: 7
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 20
Charge speed: 22

Mongol Light Cavalry
Men: 60
Cost 700
Charge bonus: 3
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 2
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 6
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 22
Charge speed: 24
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 14%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0

Yuan Imperial Horsearchers
Men: 60
Cost 500
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 0
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 22
Charge speed: 24
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 12%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0

As soon as I can find Murabbatin stats I will adjust them and edit them into this list.
*Skirmishers shield has to be considered.*
Korean spearmen could be renamed as Song spearmen?
I noticed morale bonus of Japanese units increases in multiples of 2 so not sure if my suggested '7' is allowable, I hope it is

..........Orda

[barocca]

it is a big roster! (the "missing" song could still be added)

i have actually considerd a korean campaign
(there is even plenty of room on the campaign map to add korea!)
(mind you that would be a big task, much of the startpos file is handwritten!)

unit roster, it is still do-able too - i have a couple of medium and heavy cav bif's that are not yet assigned that would suit,
also i have a couple of infantry units that are not assigned

the thing i am most lacking is crossbowmen, there are not enough different bif's, but i think i can solve that by painting designs on shields.

will have another look through the roster of unused animations and see what could be done for fun.

[barocca]

the ultimate goal is NO shared bifs, ie mongols, monks and japanese factions all have their own bifs.
(currently enough spares that i could divide mongols into two AND add one more cultural mix later)

just so all understand seperate chinese, vietnamese, korean factions are a loooong way off.

right now i am finishing the mongol invasion with some chinese support,

once they're done i have the monk troop mix in my sights.

[Yoshitsune]

This is a nice article on the Chinese Song Dynasty troop types:

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/hanson.htm

The siege in the article took place just before the first invasion of Japan in 1274. The Song were finally overthrown by the Mongols in time for many of their troops to be used in the second attempted invasion of Japan in 1281 (probably unwillingly so perhaps this should be reflected in the unit stats...)

[Orda Khan]

The current Mongol unit mix for MP is looking very good indeed, there is a refreshing feel to gameplay and the battles are a lot more exciting now.

More screenshots will be posted soon

......Orda

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I was never a major Stat person in the sense of One unit has a certain stat of 3 and this one has a 5 and that stuff, but I say Mongols Should have some Anti-Cav stuff. Not to much, because you don't want them to be the major "Kill everything" Faction, but enough that it doesn't require many games to get a good army to fight the Samurai Factions.

[Orda Khan]

By the time of the invasion of Japan, Qubilai's Yuan armies had changed considerably from the steppe horsemen of his grandfather's day. Even during the Mongol civil war, infantry were a large proportion of his armies.
The current unit mix is very diverse and the Mongol player has quite a few varied options, which all goes to improve the gameplay. Battles have been very intense and tactical, Japanese units have also changed and there are new maps with more on the way.

:yes:

[Orda Khan]

Should have posted this in the screenshots comp. From a recent MP Battle ...
https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7738/beta9shotnb6.th.jpg (https://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beta9shotnb6.jpg)

https://img264.imageshack.us/img264/844/beta902ct5.th.jpg (https://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beta902ct5.jpg)

[Yoshitsune]

Please forgive me if this is the wrong place but I thought this might be interesting given the topic.

Clips from a Japanese TV drama covering the Mongol Invasions of Japan in the 13th Century. Nice portrayal of troop types, weapons, banners etc. Watch out for those thunder-crash bombers :)

(be sure to choose the "watch in high quality" option)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bifyxXQ85nc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi8J3cwg6do


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt9de6mjaNQ