View Full Version : LotR - Man of the Hour Emergency Senate Session
I am calling a brief Emergency Session to deal with a situation that is not addressed in the rules and which I think is significant. Essentially, Tristan won a Heroic Victory and got a Man of the Hour adoption offer for it. FLYdude then rejected the MoH for completely valid IC reasons. I have frozen the game because if we move on beyond this point, it will be impossible to change this result if we feel it is needed. I want to make this short and sweet to keep the game going, so if you have an opinion, please respond promptly.
This issue arises from these two (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1961872&postcount=172) posts (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1961926&postcount=174):
Belgrade has been freed with the help of Anastasios Neokeisareitis who I must commend for his warrior abilities, however much we may differ otherwise
There are two saves because Methodios got a Heroic Victory and a MoH out of that one :
Save 1 : http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/LOTR-1098-4.rar (with the MoH offer)
Save 2 : http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/LOTR-1098-4b.rar (with the MoH accepted)
I didn't know what the policy was about MoH and was not sure the offer would withstand the save, which apparently it does, so I made those two saves...
Pics should be up as soon as possible...
EDIT : Please make Methodios enter Belgrade as I forgot to do it...
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/LOTR-1098-5.zip
Made a few moves and declined MoH offer using "the Megas Logothetes can do whatever he wants" rule as adoptions are not mentioned anywhere in the rules. The following reasoning was applied:
Kosmas Mavrozomis was the adopter, and Zim told me that it makes no sense IC, in that Tagaris is not liked by Mavrozomis in any sense.
If the Megas Logothetes has any say in it (i.e. it needs his stamp of approval), then the whole thing is out of the question, Ampelas hates Tagaris. Hell, he's mad about this "heroic" act itself, never mind the previous disagreements they had, although it does save him a turn off the trip to Turkey.
The question is whether the Megas (or anyone else, really) should get a say in whether a MoH is accepted. This is not even remotely touched upon in the rules. Normally this would mean that the Megas gets to do whatever he wants, and FLYdude has played it that way, which is 100% proper. That said, I do not think anyone should get a say in a MoH adoption other than the person who achieved it. Our family tree is very small at the moment, and there are several roleplaying perks that come with being on the tree, in addition to the obvious ones of possibly becoming Caesar and Basileus. One of the acknowledged problems with using so many RBGs is that the family tree pool is very, very small and will likely remain that way.
Thus, getting onto the family tree is a huge accomplishment and turning down a MoH when it is offered can be a major blow to a player. One of my original concepts for LotR was to make battles very dangerous, but to also make them highly rewarding. The idea was the low-level avatars will want to fight battles to become known, earn rank and land, etc. Then, when they have achieved a powerful position, they will sit back and manage their Houses and send other people off to do the dangerous work. No need to risk your life at that point. If we allow block of MoH adoptions, then we are removing one of the most significant perks of fighting from the game.
I also do not think it makes much sense IC for the Megas to be able to prevent such an adoption. The Family Tree is a Royal House thing. It might make sense for the Basileus to be able to block it, but on an IC level that seems to be an option that is beyond the Megas' control unless the Megas is the Basileus. Even then I'm not keen on allowing a Basileus block either for the reasons stated above, plus the delay in the game figuring out whether it will be allowed.
I would like to propose the following OOC Amendment:
E2.1: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the player who controls the avatar."
I will give 24 hours of discussion on this issue. If more time is needed for debate, I will allow it after that point. If it isn't, we will then vote on it.
Sorry for the delay this is causing, but I think it's important we hammer this out right here.
I agree that the Megas should have no say, it is nothing to do with them. However as in real life it should be up to the adopter whether it happens or not. You cannot force someone to adopt you...
edit: and likewise you should not be able to force someone to be adopted. They should both have to want it...
Privateerkev
07-05-2008, 23:27
I say the OOC importance of getting avatars up on the tree, overrides the IC desires of some characters to limit the tree.
The tree needs to be fleshed out more or we will lose the game, through no fault of our own.
And I agree MoH's are a cool thing for players to go for. If a character has no land, titles, or House, he can still achieve distinction through superb accomplishments on the battlefield.
So, I will vote yes on this one.
The tree will not be wiped out if we do not have MotHs....
Look at the M2 hotseat, no adoptions were allowed with that and no one got wiped out from lack of members. The RGBs do not affect the rate of children being born, MotH does and besides I'm sure quite a lot of people will agree.
EF is correct that IC the adopter would have a say, but the adoption spot on the tree has no real logic to it whatsoever. It is entirely possible for there to be a person who would love to have the adoptee as part of their family, but instead the game sticks them under the adoptee's worst enemy. While giving the adopter no say in the matter isn't realistic IC, I commented in the initial rules discussion that the family tree relationships should only be roleplayed if they fit. If adoptions don't make sense IC, then just pretend they haven't occurred. The Family Tree doesn't have to be thought of as an exclusive marital/blood lineage. Think of it more like a list of prominent people. If the IC relationships fit with the tree relationships, then people can roleplay them as such. If they don't, just pretend they don't exist.
If that's true, then the only disadvantage to preventing the adopter from getting a say is that they are now deprived of a slot for a child. While this is indeed unfortunate, I don't think it's that big a deal. Many people on the family tree will never 'earn' their way to that spot in the first place. There are two underage sons who will eventually become available. Whoever takes those avatars will not have 'earned' a spot on the tree. Under the circumstances, I think a person who has taken a RBG and done well enough to get a spot on the tree deserves his spot more than one of those new players deserves having all their 'offspring' slots open.
When it comes down to it, I think family relationships in this game need to take a back seat to advancement of the main avatars. If you can somehow get a family going in the game, great, but it should not be considered a right for anyone.
Ibn-Khaldun
07-05-2008, 23:40
I think that if player have won "Heroic Victory" then he should be able to decide whether he likes to be adopted by that character in to the royal family or not..
I'm sort of agreeing with the IC side more, because strange adoptions would force RP on people. In KOTR, we had the crazy succession mechanics, and it was interesting... but strange. And it was always seen as a "problem" to be worked around. I propose
E2.2: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the avatar who is the adopter."
In that the Megas should not decide it, but the adopter should. I hope the "avatar" deciding it lanugage implies it's meant to be an IC decision.
I have to say I don't like the Edict as written (preFlydude's suggested change :clown:). I could see a compromise that would at least keep a couple of each fm's child slots open for natural children working (not really important for Kosmas, who I suspect won't have kids, but I could see Ignoramus and TheFlax each hoping their character's line continues). Perhaps at least two slots could have to be left open for a fm's natural children, unless the fm's player oks further adoptions.
If heroic victories were difficult to achieve I could see allowing unlimited MOTHs, but they're not, really. I'm a mediocre player compared to most of the people here and I used to make a game out of seeing how many historical battle markers I could get in a single province. Backed into a corner once in a BC succession game (a mod I think is generally balanced better for battles than SS 4.1) I tore through something like 10+ near full stacks, each with a decent mix of troops, and 90% of the fighting was done by a unit of general's bodyguards (far smaller in unit size than SS ones) and a unit of merc knights.
Heroic victories aren't hard to get, even if you're careful with your general. The AI just isn't up to the task of beating players as nerdy as we are. :clown:
Again, there are many players here who can beat me with one arm tied behind their back. :yes:
I understand the worry about how small the Imperial Family is. If it makes things easier, no matter how this is resolved I will leave all of Kosmas' slots open to any adoptee or MOTH at all, starting with Methodios'. :yes:
Ibn-Khaldun
07-05-2008, 23:50
Perhaps those in royal family can have only one or two avatars who have hot the MotH event.
This way they will have slots for their children too AND people who have got the MotH event will have chance to become a royal family member.
EDIT: Zim beat me to it:wall:
Ok, how about this for a compromise:
E2.1: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered, the choice of whether to accept the adoption will be up to the adoptee, unless the adopter already has 2 non-natural children, in which case the choice will be up to the adopter."
This would allow people to be adopted in most situations, while still giving everyone the opportunity to have at least 2 children the old fashioned way.
(preFlydude's suggested change :clown:).
It's not a change, it's a contradictory edict numbered 2.2. I thought we'd like to have both options on the board and vote at it.
Ibn-Khaldun
07-06-2008, 00:01
E2.1: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered, the choice of whether to accept the adoption will be up to the adoptee, unless the adopter already has 2 non-natural children, in which case the choice will be up to the adopter."
I second this!
Exactly what I wanted :2thumbsup:
Privateerkev
07-06-2008, 00:27
Unfortunately, we have no idea who the adopter will be until the adoption is accepted.
I say, go with TC's new legislation.
That makes it up to the adoptee, while still allowing an adopter the right to have a couple real kids.
Askthepizzaguy
07-06-2008, 00:31
My opinion is that the royal family should decide who it adopts or not.
I propose:
ANY WHO ARE IN THE ROYAL FAMILY MAY VOTE, Those generals who are not members of the royal family may not vote. In the event of a tie, the Emperor has the final say.
The MoH may also decline to join without a vote.
Seems fair. Who am I, Efstratios Monomachos, to tell the Emperor whom to adopt into his family? Seems odd that the royal family could in theory have disloyal troublemakers forcibly added to their family. I think any family can decide whom it adopts.
I also dont see any reason to care about how many sons/daughters one has versus adoptees. Who cares? If I want a bunch of sons, or none, if I want a bunch of adoptees, or none, I think my vote to have an adopted heir should remain the same. The Royal Family should decide.
Efstratios Monomachos is a disloyal politician, and he doesnt want a wife (save Anna, but we all know how that turns out) or children. He doesn't want adopted heirs. He's fine being a general and a politician. If I were offered MoH I would decline it.
If for some reason I didn't decline it, I would HOPE the royal family would see me as unfit and demand that I not be included.
By the way, everything here is OOC and cannot be used against me in the game IC. For all you know, I'm perfectly loyal.
Cecil XIX
07-06-2008, 01:31
I second E2.2.
My opinion is that the royal family should decide who it adopts or not.
This is an interesting concept. Do you mean everyone on the family tree or are you talking about some subset of the family tree?
We could also make it anyone on the family tree, and RP it as if that person was the adopter regardless of where the adoptee actually lands. The succession mechanic is funny enough to make the exact placement on the tree not all that important. This should still be subject to the max two physical adoptees unless the family member agrees otherwise. This makes it easier to get on the tree as you only have to be liked by one family member, still leaves people two offspring slots if they want them, and doesn't make people accept and RP sons that their avatars would never adopt, but adoptions still mean something because there is some family member willing to take that avatar as a son.
Askthepizzaguy
07-06-2008, 03:32
This is an interesting concept. Do you mean everyone on the family tree or are you talking about some subset of the family tree?
Anyone on the family tree should have a say. THEY are royalty.
We generals shouldnt have a say. We're just the hired help.
Anyone on the family tree should have a say. THEY are royalty.
We generals shouldnt have a say. We're just the hired help.
My initial reaction is to be concerned about how much time it would take to poll the 'royal family' to get consent for a MoH. However, I'm also very intrigued by the notion of a 'tier' of nobility that people could obtain by joining the family tree. I'm not sure what purpose it would serve, but it could be something to expand upon in the future. I'd like to see more discussion of this.
Anyone on the family tree should have a say. THEY are royalty.
We generals shouldnt have a say. We're just the hired help.
No they are not. For example, Kosmas is on the family tree, but is certainly not royalty. Being on the family tree can easily mean that the person in question is under the patronage of a royal or someone connected to them. Even in the royal family itself, not everyone is equal and power if often measured by how close one person is to the Basileus.
In brief, as RGBs have varying degrees of power and are each in a unique position, not everyone in the family tree should be lumped together.
Finally, any kind of voting would freeze up even more time. The only way I could see this idea working is if at each Magnaura session, the members in the family voted if Men of the Hour would be accepted or not for the following term.
Nevertheless, I am more inclined for the latest E2.1, as it seems a good no-hassle compromise between what almost everybody seems to want.
Privateerkev
07-06-2008, 04:21
My initial reaction is to be concerned about how much time it would take to poll the 'royal family' to get consent for a MoH. However, I'm also very intrigued by the notion of a 'tier' of nobility that people could obtain by joining the family tree. I'm not sure what purpose it would serve, but it could be something to expand upon in the future. I'd like to see more discussion of this.
If we are going to consider polling the family tree, then what about weighting the votes? As TF pointed out, not all family tree members are created equal.
Emperor - 4 votes
Caesar - 3 votes
natural born sons - 2 votes
every one else - 1 vote
Also what this does, is allow the potential for votes going quick. Once there is a majority of the possible votes, the decision is made. So, if the Emperor and/or Caesar are active players, then they can make a decision almost by themselves. Since they would most likely be a high percentage of the votes, until later in the game when the tree is bigger, they would have a huge say in the decision, as well as make sure the voting is over fairly quickly.
This also makes the family tree more nuanced, which some wished for back in the rules discussion phase.
If this kind of a system is to be adopted (emphasis on if, I am still far from convinced it will serve any useful purpose) I would prefer an equal, unweighted vote for everyone, but with the Basileus wielding a veto. A weighted system would make sense, but that's a pretty large level of complexity for an organization that so far has no purpose other than to determine its own membership.
Privateerkev
07-06-2008, 04:54
If this kind of a system is to be adopted (emphasis on if, I am still far from convinced it will serve any useful purpose) I would prefer an equal, unweighted vote for everyone, but with the Basileus wielding a veto. A weighted system would make sense, but that's a pretty large level of complexity for an organization that so far has no purpose other than to determine its own membership.
Yeah, I can't say I'm very keen on it either. But some people did want the family tree to mean more. And they did want it more nuanced. So, this is one way of doing that.
Askthepizzaguy
07-06-2008, 04:56
You could simply have members of "The Royal Family" end quote draw up a list of people they would vote to welcome/deny into the royal family, and have them all forward it to TinCow.
That way you don't have to STOP the game and VOTE but everyone's secret ballots are already in.
You don't seriously want Monomachos in the family tree do you? So everyone votes no.
Some may not want their rivals on the tree, so only they vote no.
Some may see how great Methodios Tagaris is, and so everyone votes yes. :laugh2:
And so on.
That way, it's already decided. And people can amend their choices later. I seriously believe the royal family should be able to say no, and that MoH should MEAN something special, so not everyone can join, but that the elite warriors should join.
I believe being an heir to the royal family or an adopted member is a priviliged status reserved for those above the common soldiery.
Ramses II CP
07-06-2008, 05:44
IMHO this should be a power of, and decision for, the Emperor. What does 'Man of the Hour' really mean, after all, except someone whose victory has been so great as to draw the highest attention in the land? Logically I like the idea of the adopter getting a chance to say no, especially if they have no natural children, but if the Emperor asks you to take someone in and you say no, there should be in character consequences to that even if you're doing it for OOC reasons.
Let me see if I can clarify my thoughts:
1. MotH is an in character event. Whether it is accepted or not should be an IC decision.
2. Being a MotH means your victory was so great as to draw the eyes of your Emperor, who is the only man with the ultimate authority to adopt a potential heir into his family. If the Emperor rejects you he may face a public backlash, especially among the more warriorly senators, etc. If he accepts you, you're royalty, period.
3. If you're on the family tree you are subject to the Emperor's authority. If he instructs you to join a MotH recruit to your family, obey or suffer the consequences. If you decline for OOC reasons (Such as a desire for natural children) this should still have IC consequences. We all have to live with the flaws in the engine.
My 2 cents.
:egypt:
Askthepizzaguy
07-06-2008, 05:48
I would be content with Ramses' ideas as well.
I just want it to be both an honour, and the process to make sense. If it gets complicated with extensive rules and so on which create more work and less fun, and it's also not realistic either, then people will grumble about it.
Much like the good-intentioned "no adopting family members" in some hotseats... what a pain in the royal arse that idea was in practice... :laugh4:
OverKnight
07-06-2008, 06:25
Aghh, the dreaded family tree AI strikes again.
I second both proposals, if needed, so we have a choice of option.
Look at the family tree at the end of KotR. It wasn't really just the royal family, it included all the noble families of the realm.
If a RGB I didn't like IC got in, Al would view them as a troublesome noble who now had enough influence to get a shot at the Throne eventually, but not a family member.
TC's revised amendment seems the closest to my thinking, it has the benefit of being simple and quick to implement. Simply save at the MoH screen, check who gets the adoption, and then go from there.
Privateerkev
07-06-2008, 06:33
I assume we don't second OOC CA's but if we do, then I certainly second E2.1.
AussieGiant
07-06-2008, 07:05
It's hard to find an IC, OOC balance to something like this....
Ramses IC outline is the strongest position for me.
As you all know I'm adverse to more legislation when ever possible so if we have to put something in I like to keep it as straight forward as possible.
Having said that, I certainly agree the Megas should have nothing to do with it...however the Emperor is the head of the family, whether it be by royal blood lines, or by adoption or by any means. Given the feudal nature of the game I'd like to have this more feudal than not.
E2.x: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered, the choice of whether to accept the adoption will be up to the Emperor."
Askthepizzaguy
07-06-2008, 07:48
I'd second such a thing.
_Tristan_
07-06-2008, 08:20
Can I have my say in the matter ?
I disagree with Ramses that it is an IC event, it is rather an In Game event and therefore OOC event...
But if IC consideration come into line, why not say that popular acclaim forces the Basileos' hand...
I like the way TC wrote the second version of his CA leaving 2 slots free for the possible children of the adopter...
Anyway, don't mind me as I am biased by the fact that Methodios got that first MoH offer...
The Emperor idea is decent too. It removes the random element of the game's benefactor choice, and we have been following the policy of the Emperor having the say over the family, such as the case with princesses. So, I'd second 2.x, although if all three go up for a vote, it might split the IC vote, so the ICers should probably agree on one, and I'm pulling for the Emperor now as opposed to my initial proposal.
The thing about the game giving out this reward is that it only looks at the numbers. I mean, what if Methodios goes alone with his bodyguard and destroys a whole Papal stack and gets a crusade declared on us? Do we give him a triumph because the game tells us to? There is an inescapable IC element here.
AussieGiant
07-06-2008, 11:26
It's impossible to separate IC from OOC aspects as Tristan has outlined, and others for that matter.
Honestly in a situation like this, given we are blazing a new path on the OOC rules, I'd go with letting Tristan decide for himself now, as a reward for skill, good timing and a small amount of luck. Then hand it over to the Emperor.
It's not as unwieldy as weighted voting in the family and removes both the adoptee and adopter from the equation. It's another nice thing for the Emperor to handle and makes things a little more interesting if you think about it for just a second. Therefore it's a third party deciding and that solves many issues both IC and OOC.
When it comes time to vote, I will put all three current Amendments up and make it a multi-choice poll. I'll request that everyone vote on all three, and only vote No on a particular one if you really don't find it acceptable. If more than one passes, the one with the most votes will be implemented. If they are tied, there will be a simple either/or second round vote. I think that if we do it any other way, none of the Amendments will get the required 2/3.
AussieGiant
07-06-2008, 16:42
When it comes time to vote, I will put all three current Amendments up and make it a multi-choice poll. I'll request that everyone vote on all three, and only vote No on a particular one if you really don't find it acceptable. If more than one passes, the one with the most votes will be implemented. If they are tied, there will be a simple either/or second round vote. I think that if we do it any other way, none of the Amendments will get the required 2/3.
Law and Politics...
TC you really under utilised. :beam:
Sounds good to me.
_Tristan_
07-06-2008, 16:56
And now, I'm wondering : why did I post two saves ?
I should have accepted the MoH offer and it would have made precedent...
Damn, my chivalrous avatar must be getting to me...
Privateerkev
07-06-2008, 17:36
you did the right thing.
FD could have just called your save invalid and then TC would have frozen everything anyways.
Ituralde
07-06-2008, 17:49
I've managed to read it today and currently I'm leaning heavily towards CA 2.1 as proposed by TinCow, it's what I had in mind from the start.
That said, Ramses proposal doesn't sound too bad either, so I'm glad we put it up for a vote too.
The problem with IC explanations is that there are always cases where they just don't fit anymore. Right now Overknight stands at the head of the Royal family but this may change as soon as the second or third Basileus. What if the inheritance mechanic throws us some strange Basileus that not only faces huge OOC but also IC opposition and already other factions within the family tree are jockeying for position to get rid of the Basileus. Why should the Basileus then have control over who his enemies on the family tree adopt? While I like it now, I think it might create problems or unrealistic situations later on.
Just my oppinion and I look forward to the vote!
Ituralde
you did the right thing.
FD could have just called your save invalid and then TC would have frozen everything anyways.
Except that wouldn't have happened. I was far more concerned with keeping the game moving than with who gets on the tree. Maybe someone else would have complained, but three hours later we would have been on the next turn, and we would have had to figure out what the family tree meant in retrospect. So yeah, he could have totally gotten away with it. :beam:
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