GeneralHankerchief
08-04-2008, 15:31
I had some time on my hands, so inspired by flyd's recent defeat at the hands of the AI, I went and created a chart to determine how bad past and future battle losses are, compared to each other. This premise was blatantly stolen from Bill Simmons's Sports Levels of Losing column (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071001) (OK and Ramses might know/relate to this; not sure about the rest of you) but I think it fits nicely with the Throne Room theme.
Only battles from the three monster PBMs are included - Will of the Senate, King of the Romans, and Last of the Romans. Currently, only one LotR battle made the list, but I'm sure that will change as time goes on. I will be editing the list as new levels are created, or if LotR battles serve as a better example than the ones I have up there already. Feel free to comment, suggest additional Levels, or just reminisce! Levels are in descending order.
Level XIV: The Pesky Enemy
Definition: The lowest three levels on this chart are actually wins, but still wins with baggage. This one is the least damaging but still unwelcome – you kick the crap out of the enemy as usual, but for whatever reason, they did more damage than you would have liked, whether it be ruining an important unit or simply causing too many casualties. The effects of the Pesky Enemy battles are felt the greatest in the long run.
Best example: The Battle of the Flemish Crossroads (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1733228) and Wolfgang Hümmel’s subsequent battle against the Danes. Yeah, he won, but the two fights bled his men at a time when reinforcements did not come easily. This lack of an overwhelming numbers advantage really hurt him at Staufen when he failed to utterly defeat the Loyalists.
Level XIII: The “Why the *#%! did we just fight this?” Battle
Definition: The army’s all geared up, you take it to the enemy, and even win the fight... but gain absolutely nothing. Yeah, the other guys may have retreated/been destroyed, but for whatever reason you can’t advance onto the objective, mainly because there are about three more armies to kill. All you have to show for your victory is a growing list of casualties and shrinking morale. Watch yourself.
Best example: Pretty much every KotR fight during and after the Cataclysm, when the enemies were endless and Imperial casualties piled up. Multiple “Why the *#%! did we just fight this?” battles are usually a sign that it’s time to put the PBM to bed.
Level XII: The Going Away Present
Definition: The battle’s going well, as planned. You’re all about to wrap things up, when – Surprise! Whatever remains of the enemy gets together and manages to kill a general. Suddenly your army is without a leader and the victory becomes an extremely bad taste in your mouth.
Best example: This is the most common loss, and thank God it’s so low on the list. After some deliberation, this one goes to the Siege of Bran (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1637059&postcount=132) resulting in the death of Sigismund von Mahren. This one gets the win over the Siege of Ajaccio and Herrmann Steffen’s Battle of Milan mainly because Sigismund was the lead general. There were other battles I could have picked like this, but they were more catastrophic and deserve their own categories below.
Level XI: The Bloody Draw
Definition: You may “win” the battle, but in the process of doing so your army is so decimated that the campaign is called to a halt while you resupply. The death of a supporting/lead general and/or the presence of additional enemy armies nearby only make this situation worse.
Best example: The final Battle of Apollonia (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1179602&postcount=11), all the way back from Will of the Senate. Basically, the Roman hero Quintus, after having previously fought several “Why the *#%! did we just fight this?” Battles, is trapped in the hornet’s nest of Apollonia, facing impossible odds. He manages to hold off the Greeks long enough for the timer to run out (explained IC as the Greeks withdrawing due to incoming Roman reinforcements) but loses his entire army as well as a young, popular, supporting general. Quintus, a shattered man, retires to Rome to die peacefully.
Level X: The Standard Loss
Definition: Now, the Levels of Losing column that I stole this idea from eliminates standard losses in favor of more brutal ones, but considering how Throne Room losses come few and far between, the basic loss needs to be included. Pretty much, you lose part or most of your army and have to withdraw/resupply while the enemy gains ground. Normally wouldn’t be too bad, but considering how single commanders are often required to hold areas, Standard Losses could be problematic.
Best example: Herrmann Steffen’s Battle of Marseille Bridge (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1841718&postcount=264). Being part of a Crusade and taking a side route, Herrmann is tasked with defending Marseille from a professional French force. Despite the favorable terrain, the French soldiers outnumber and outclass the Imperials and drive them back. For the survivors, the Crusade is off as they are relegated to garrison duty.
Level IX: The Hand-Wringer
Definition: A Standard Loss, only much more exasperating. Either the outcome of the battle was up in the air or you were supposed to win. You were holding your own in the battle, performing to good order, and suddenly your weakest unit ruins it for you. You had no choice but to include it into the line, hoping that it would not completely screw up... but of course, it does just that. As a result, the enemy breaks through, winning the day, and you’re left to swear foul oaths at the unit that ruined it for you.
Best example: The Battle of Ancyra (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74303), from Will of the Senate. Manius Coruncanius, currently in the process of enveloping his Senate rival, instead watches as his Gallic mercenaries break in the center. Suddenly he is scrambling to recover and can only watch as his fortunes change rapidly that day.
Level VIII: The Bolt From the Blue
Definition: Now, we enter the painful stuff. Statistically, the same as a Standard Loss, although entirely unexpected. It’s a battle you’re supposed to win but inexplicably do not, and as a result the consequences may be greater. Shame is brought to the general and his entire army for losing a Bolt From the Blue.
Best example: The Battle of Massilia Ford (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1202379&postcount=22), from Will of the Senate. It was a routine ford defense against the Barbarian hordes... only this time, the Gauls broke through. Legio III was decimated, Italy was threatened, and the Romans even lost a Legionary Eagle. In the aftermath, a trial was called and found commanding general Publius Laevinus responsible for the defeat. The Princeps Senatus’s career was ruined because of this battle.
Level VII: The Chain Reaction
Definition: It looks to be a tight battle, with both sides locked in combat and the momentum poised to shift either way. Then, a unit breaks. Or the general goes and gets himself killed. Or, a delayed flank attack finally hits. In any case, it starts a massive rout and before you know it, you’re dead and your entire army is on the run if not already destroyed. This is the kind of defeat usually dealt to the AI by human players; thus, when reversed, it can be deadly.
Best example: Conrad Salier’s last battle (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1641374&postcount=135) against the Mongols. In this case, the turning point was Salier’s death. The fact that he was a 10-star general caused an instant rout, destroying a very good Imperial army. The nasty thing about this particular battle is that it also took out a huge portion of Jan von Hamburg’s reinforcing army and almost Jan himself as well. All in all, a massive loss of manpower for the forces in Outremer.
Level VI: The Campaign Killer
Definition: Due to the spread-out nature of PBMs, there’s usually only one army tasked to a front. When that army gets obliterated, it leaves that front highly vulnerable, and, if the AI plays its cards right, it can take control over an entire area, causing serious problems for the human faction. These are worse losses than the above example because, in the case of Salier’s Chain Reaction battle, there were men immediately available to replace those that were lost. This is never the case in Campaign Killers, where a single loss could spell doom for an entire front.
Best example: Markianos Ampelas’s fall (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1980976&postcount=22) at Caesaria. Oops.
Level V: The Surprise Attack
Definition: Campaign Killers with an unpleasant twist: the attack was entirely unexpected. You could be on normal border duty, defending a front, when suddenly you spot a huge allied, or maybe even neutral army, making its way toward you. You don’t think anything of it until they’re on you, ready to tear you and your entirely unprepared army to smithereens. The deadly thing about Surprise Attacks is that not only do they put entire fronts in jeopardy but they also mean that the human-controlled faction now has to worry about a new enemy to fight off.
Best example: The Second Battle of Maronia (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1230600&postcount=43), from Will of the Senate. Publius Pansa’s undermanned legion had no chance against a powerful (and unexpected) Seleucid attack.
Level IV: The Cockroach-Nuclear Bomb Strategy
Definition: So there’s a mild annoyance, flying around, looking ugly, and generally making a minor mess of things. You try to deal with it, but this threat just won’t go away no matter how many times you try to kill it. All the while, it’s doing more and more damage. Maybe it bit you and the wound’s becoming infected. You finally get fed up and, in an effort to deal with the problem once and for all, take it out with a nuclear bomb; however, in your final seconds you realize that in an effort to destroy the threat, you’ve taken out everything you’ve worked for with it, as well as your life.
Best example: The Battle of Bern (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1745323), Loyalist side. Dietrich von Dassel, a minor member of the Illuminati, had been threatening the trio of Elberhard, Hans, and Jan von Hamburg, for years, eventually making it to the point where he was seriously challenging for the Duchy of Swabia which would give the Illuminati unsurpassed power. In an effort to check this effort as well as stop the religious unrest tearing apart the Reich, Hans and Jan marshaled two huge armies and assaulted Dietrich-controlled Bern. Hans, Jan, and most of their forces perished, netting them only one dead, uninfluential Illuminatus in return.
Level III: The Dream Killer
Definition: Dream Killers only happen in a civil war for the “upstart” faction. You’ve started your little revolution, gained ground, gotten to the point where you’re being taken very seriously by the establishment, possibly even making them sweat and quake in their boots. It’s the point of the decisive battle... and your army, your hope, your dream, goes down in flames. You don’t die though, oh no. You’re left to watch the destruction and contemplate where it all went wrong, probably living the remainder of your life in exile or captured by the enemy.
Best example: The Battle for Rome (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75664), from Will of the Senate. Servius Aemilius’s Consular forces face down his uncle Marcellus’s Senate forces in an epic battle for control of Italy (the only part of the Republic that could produce troops). Servius fights well, but is unable to overcome Marcellus’s numerical advantage and eventually flees. Unfortunately, WotS ended after this battle without us ever knowing how Servius eventually ended up, but I like to think he thought about this loss a lot. For a real-life example, the Battle of Waterloo was a Dream Killer for Napoleon.
Level II: The Dream Killer Plus
Definition: Essentially the same thing as a Dream Killer, but in this case the would-be architect dies in the battle. At least with Dream Killers, the general has a slight hope of turning things around, but this isn’t the case in a Dream Killer Plus, where he’s dead.
Best example: Close call between the Battle of Staufen (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1767685) and the Battle of Bern, Rebel side. In the end Staufen gets it because of the sheer heartbreak of it (Wolfgang Hümmel was winning right up until the end; the nastiest of Going Away Presents) and Dietrich partly achieved his goal by killing Hans and Jan.
Level I: The Perfect Storm
Definition: Anything that can possibly go wrong in a battle, goes wrong. Post-battle implications are catastrophic as well. Example: You’re the “establishment” faction in a civil war, literally your entire force is gathered in one area, you’re betrayed from within, surrounded, and annihilated; were you alive, you’d see the upstarts succeed and destroy everything you’ve worked to preserve in life.
Best example: The infamous Battle of Trent (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1866949), which ended KotR. If you were on the Imperialist side, you were doomed from the start. This was the Illuminati’s final victory and it was so total, so thorough, that you just had to shake your head in awe. Five generals on that side died that day, with only one (and an unimportant one at that) escaping all the way to the New World.
Only battles from the three monster PBMs are included - Will of the Senate, King of the Romans, and Last of the Romans. Currently, only one LotR battle made the list, but I'm sure that will change as time goes on. I will be editing the list as new levels are created, or if LotR battles serve as a better example than the ones I have up there already. Feel free to comment, suggest additional Levels, or just reminisce! Levels are in descending order.
Level XIV: The Pesky Enemy
Definition: The lowest three levels on this chart are actually wins, but still wins with baggage. This one is the least damaging but still unwelcome – you kick the crap out of the enemy as usual, but for whatever reason, they did more damage than you would have liked, whether it be ruining an important unit or simply causing too many casualties. The effects of the Pesky Enemy battles are felt the greatest in the long run.
Best example: The Battle of the Flemish Crossroads (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1733228) and Wolfgang Hümmel’s subsequent battle against the Danes. Yeah, he won, but the two fights bled his men at a time when reinforcements did not come easily. This lack of an overwhelming numbers advantage really hurt him at Staufen when he failed to utterly defeat the Loyalists.
Level XIII: The “Why the *#%! did we just fight this?” Battle
Definition: The army’s all geared up, you take it to the enemy, and even win the fight... but gain absolutely nothing. Yeah, the other guys may have retreated/been destroyed, but for whatever reason you can’t advance onto the objective, mainly because there are about three more armies to kill. All you have to show for your victory is a growing list of casualties and shrinking morale. Watch yourself.
Best example: Pretty much every KotR fight during and after the Cataclysm, when the enemies were endless and Imperial casualties piled up. Multiple “Why the *#%! did we just fight this?” battles are usually a sign that it’s time to put the PBM to bed.
Level XII: The Going Away Present
Definition: The battle’s going well, as planned. You’re all about to wrap things up, when – Surprise! Whatever remains of the enemy gets together and manages to kill a general. Suddenly your army is without a leader and the victory becomes an extremely bad taste in your mouth.
Best example: This is the most common loss, and thank God it’s so low on the list. After some deliberation, this one goes to the Siege of Bran (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1637059&postcount=132) resulting in the death of Sigismund von Mahren. This one gets the win over the Siege of Ajaccio and Herrmann Steffen’s Battle of Milan mainly because Sigismund was the lead general. There were other battles I could have picked like this, but they were more catastrophic and deserve their own categories below.
Level XI: The Bloody Draw
Definition: You may “win” the battle, but in the process of doing so your army is so decimated that the campaign is called to a halt while you resupply. The death of a supporting/lead general and/or the presence of additional enemy armies nearby only make this situation worse.
Best example: The final Battle of Apollonia (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1179602&postcount=11), all the way back from Will of the Senate. Basically, the Roman hero Quintus, after having previously fought several “Why the *#%! did we just fight this?” Battles, is trapped in the hornet’s nest of Apollonia, facing impossible odds. He manages to hold off the Greeks long enough for the timer to run out (explained IC as the Greeks withdrawing due to incoming Roman reinforcements) but loses his entire army as well as a young, popular, supporting general. Quintus, a shattered man, retires to Rome to die peacefully.
Level X: The Standard Loss
Definition: Now, the Levels of Losing column that I stole this idea from eliminates standard losses in favor of more brutal ones, but considering how Throne Room losses come few and far between, the basic loss needs to be included. Pretty much, you lose part or most of your army and have to withdraw/resupply while the enemy gains ground. Normally wouldn’t be too bad, but considering how single commanders are often required to hold areas, Standard Losses could be problematic.
Best example: Herrmann Steffen’s Battle of Marseille Bridge (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1841718&postcount=264). Being part of a Crusade and taking a side route, Herrmann is tasked with defending Marseille from a professional French force. Despite the favorable terrain, the French soldiers outnumber and outclass the Imperials and drive them back. For the survivors, the Crusade is off as they are relegated to garrison duty.
Level IX: The Hand-Wringer
Definition: A Standard Loss, only much more exasperating. Either the outcome of the battle was up in the air or you were supposed to win. You were holding your own in the battle, performing to good order, and suddenly your weakest unit ruins it for you. You had no choice but to include it into the line, hoping that it would not completely screw up... but of course, it does just that. As a result, the enemy breaks through, winning the day, and you’re left to swear foul oaths at the unit that ruined it for you.
Best example: The Battle of Ancyra (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74303), from Will of the Senate. Manius Coruncanius, currently in the process of enveloping his Senate rival, instead watches as his Gallic mercenaries break in the center. Suddenly he is scrambling to recover and can only watch as his fortunes change rapidly that day.
Level VIII: The Bolt From the Blue
Definition: Now, we enter the painful stuff. Statistically, the same as a Standard Loss, although entirely unexpected. It’s a battle you’re supposed to win but inexplicably do not, and as a result the consequences may be greater. Shame is brought to the general and his entire army for losing a Bolt From the Blue.
Best example: The Battle of Massilia Ford (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1202379&postcount=22), from Will of the Senate. It was a routine ford defense against the Barbarian hordes... only this time, the Gauls broke through. Legio III was decimated, Italy was threatened, and the Romans even lost a Legionary Eagle. In the aftermath, a trial was called and found commanding general Publius Laevinus responsible for the defeat. The Princeps Senatus’s career was ruined because of this battle.
Level VII: The Chain Reaction
Definition: It looks to be a tight battle, with both sides locked in combat and the momentum poised to shift either way. Then, a unit breaks. Or the general goes and gets himself killed. Or, a delayed flank attack finally hits. In any case, it starts a massive rout and before you know it, you’re dead and your entire army is on the run if not already destroyed. This is the kind of defeat usually dealt to the AI by human players; thus, when reversed, it can be deadly.
Best example: Conrad Salier’s last battle (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1641374&postcount=135) against the Mongols. In this case, the turning point was Salier’s death. The fact that he was a 10-star general caused an instant rout, destroying a very good Imperial army. The nasty thing about this particular battle is that it also took out a huge portion of Jan von Hamburg’s reinforcing army and almost Jan himself as well. All in all, a massive loss of manpower for the forces in Outremer.
Level VI: The Campaign Killer
Definition: Due to the spread-out nature of PBMs, there’s usually only one army tasked to a front. When that army gets obliterated, it leaves that front highly vulnerable, and, if the AI plays its cards right, it can take control over an entire area, causing serious problems for the human faction. These are worse losses than the above example because, in the case of Salier’s Chain Reaction battle, there were men immediately available to replace those that were lost. This is never the case in Campaign Killers, where a single loss could spell doom for an entire front.
Best example: Markianos Ampelas’s fall (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1980976&postcount=22) at Caesaria. Oops.
Level V: The Surprise Attack
Definition: Campaign Killers with an unpleasant twist: the attack was entirely unexpected. You could be on normal border duty, defending a front, when suddenly you spot a huge allied, or maybe even neutral army, making its way toward you. You don’t think anything of it until they’re on you, ready to tear you and your entirely unprepared army to smithereens. The deadly thing about Surprise Attacks is that not only do they put entire fronts in jeopardy but they also mean that the human-controlled faction now has to worry about a new enemy to fight off.
Best example: The Second Battle of Maronia (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1230600&postcount=43), from Will of the Senate. Publius Pansa’s undermanned legion had no chance against a powerful (and unexpected) Seleucid attack.
Level IV: The Cockroach-Nuclear Bomb Strategy
Definition: So there’s a mild annoyance, flying around, looking ugly, and generally making a minor mess of things. You try to deal with it, but this threat just won’t go away no matter how many times you try to kill it. All the while, it’s doing more and more damage. Maybe it bit you and the wound’s becoming infected. You finally get fed up and, in an effort to deal with the problem once and for all, take it out with a nuclear bomb; however, in your final seconds you realize that in an effort to destroy the threat, you’ve taken out everything you’ve worked for with it, as well as your life.
Best example: The Battle of Bern (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1745323), Loyalist side. Dietrich von Dassel, a minor member of the Illuminati, had been threatening the trio of Elberhard, Hans, and Jan von Hamburg, for years, eventually making it to the point where he was seriously challenging for the Duchy of Swabia which would give the Illuminati unsurpassed power. In an effort to check this effort as well as stop the religious unrest tearing apart the Reich, Hans and Jan marshaled two huge armies and assaulted Dietrich-controlled Bern. Hans, Jan, and most of their forces perished, netting them only one dead, uninfluential Illuminatus in return.
Level III: The Dream Killer
Definition: Dream Killers only happen in a civil war for the “upstart” faction. You’ve started your little revolution, gained ground, gotten to the point where you’re being taken very seriously by the establishment, possibly even making them sweat and quake in their boots. It’s the point of the decisive battle... and your army, your hope, your dream, goes down in flames. You don’t die though, oh no. You’re left to watch the destruction and contemplate where it all went wrong, probably living the remainder of your life in exile or captured by the enemy.
Best example: The Battle for Rome (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75664), from Will of the Senate. Servius Aemilius’s Consular forces face down his uncle Marcellus’s Senate forces in an epic battle for control of Italy (the only part of the Republic that could produce troops). Servius fights well, but is unable to overcome Marcellus’s numerical advantage and eventually flees. Unfortunately, WotS ended after this battle without us ever knowing how Servius eventually ended up, but I like to think he thought about this loss a lot. For a real-life example, the Battle of Waterloo was a Dream Killer for Napoleon.
Level II: The Dream Killer Plus
Definition: Essentially the same thing as a Dream Killer, but in this case the would-be architect dies in the battle. At least with Dream Killers, the general has a slight hope of turning things around, but this isn’t the case in a Dream Killer Plus, where he’s dead.
Best example: Close call between the Battle of Staufen (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1767685) and the Battle of Bern, Rebel side. In the end Staufen gets it because of the sheer heartbreak of it (Wolfgang Hümmel was winning right up until the end; the nastiest of Going Away Presents) and Dietrich partly achieved his goal by killing Hans and Jan.
Level I: The Perfect Storm
Definition: Anything that can possibly go wrong in a battle, goes wrong. Post-battle implications are catastrophic as well. Example: You’re the “establishment” faction in a civil war, literally your entire force is gathered in one area, you’re betrayed from within, surrounded, and annihilated; were you alive, you’d see the upstarts succeed and destroy everything you’ve worked to preserve in life.
Best example: The infamous Battle of Trent (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1866949), which ended KotR. If you were on the Imperialist side, you were doomed from the start. This was the Illuminati’s final victory and it was so total, so thorough, that you just had to shake your head in awe. Five generals on that side died that day, with only one (and an unimportant one at that) escaping all the way to the New World.