TinCow
09-05-2008, 16:16
As we all know, we recently encountered some serious problems with LotR. These have caused OOC issues and have moved the game in directions we do not want it to go. After a bit of analysis, the problem is simply that the current army management system is too complex. It is very difficult to figure out what units belong to which players and people are receiving OOC penalties for their mistakes. This system needs to be reigned in before this does any more damage.
The key issues are twofold. First, we need to greatly simplify the army ownership rules. Second, we need to use IC enforcement of the rules as often as possible. I sought out the advice of several veteran players with history going back to WotS and KotR. Specifically AussieGiant, GeneralHankerchief, Ituralde, OverKnight, Privateerkev, Northnovas, and Ramses II CP. After several days of discussion, we have hammered out a plan that we think will work well. I will summarize it in plain english before listing the actual rule changes as would be embodied by a CA.
The army ownership system is simple to the extreme. If it's in your settlement, fort, or army, it's yours. The Megas doesn't need to pay any attention whatsoever to any armies except his own and Captain led stacks and fleets, which are absurdly easy to spot. There will also be no confusion amongst the players as to who owns what, so that problem is solved.
The only possible confusion arises when people co-mingle their armies. So, we resolve this IC and with the game engine. We make no change in the rules for settlement and fort garrisons whatsoever. This means you shouldn't park your army in a fort or settlement of someone you don't trust. If you do and they confiscate your army, whine about it IC, not OOC. This focuses the game back on the IC situation, not the OOC rules. Fleets are also owned by whoever is onboard them at any particular moment. This is simple and lets people control their own movement at sea without risking the Megas sending them sailing in circles until they die of scurvy.
Co-mingled armies in the field are a bit more complex, but can be solved in the same way. If armies are co-mingled in the field, the person with the highest feudal rank owns the entire stack. If both people are of the same rank, then the eldest avatar owns the stack. Just like with the garrison rule above, don't mingle your forces with someone you don't trust. Resolve it IC if it doesn't go the way you like it.
To give this a more feudal feel, people can 'seize' field armies belonging to any of their vassals. You're the Lord, after all, so that army is technically loyal to you. If someone is of a lower rank than you and in the same House, you can just move onto their stack and it becomes yours. There would be IC consequences to this, of course, but that's part of the fun. To keep with the theme that technically everyone is a vassal to the Basileus, the Basileus can seize anyone's army in the entire game. If the Basileus comes stalking looking to take your stack, you can either grovel and kiss his feet or declare war and fight him. Your choice. He's the Emperor after all.
Seizing also applies to Captain stacks, which gives even lowly Strators a shot at grabbing an army. You might piss off the Megas if you did it, but if you grabbed the right stack, you might be able to carve out your own mini-empire just by yourself. Fun all around.
So, that's that. A system that is clear for everyone, (relatively) simple to implement, and still allows for private ownership of armies and thus for PvP. The only thing it's missing is a way for Houses to have military power that is at least somewhat independent of the Megas.
We want to solve this in the simplest way possible, so we've embraced a system we already have that works just fine: Prioritization. We add a Prioritized Unit power onto all ranks, starting at Domestikos on up. Avatars with this power can require that a unit be recruited in any settlement they own or that their vassals own. As with some of the other powers, this one is only available to the 'top dog' in a feudal chain. To keep this balanced, the higher your rank, the more times you can use it per Megas term. This gives leaders of Houses the ability to supply their followers with military units in much the same way that Private Armies worked, but without the hassle of keeping track of the armies. The higher the top dog rank, the more military units he can prioritize, which maintains the current ability of large houses to field stronger armies.
To make this easy for the Megas to implement, we have put a couple restrictions on it. First, people can choose a general kind of unit to recruit (infantry, foot missiles, cavalry) but not an actual specific unit. This continues the current situation, where a friendly Megas can give you good units and a hostile Megas can give you bad units, but it prevents a hostile Megas from completely screwing you over, since you can still get at least the right kind of unit, if not the right type. Artillery and Mercs remain cannot be prioritized and can only be recruited if the Megas lets you. Second, the prioritization powers are only computed during Normal senate sessions (every 10 turns). This makes it easy to keep track of who can do what and also prevents several exploits of the system that could occur if it was a free-form system.
The large number of prioritized units that would be available pose a significant risk of bankrupting the Empire if they are all used. However, this is an IC issue and should be handled that way. If too many people are demanding maximum use of their prioritizations, argue about it in the Senate.
In the end, the system makes ownership of armies VERY easy to identify, or at least as easy as it's possible for it to be in the game. It also uses an existing and proven system (Prioritization) to give large houses power over smaller houses and unaligned Senators. It greatly simplifies the Megas' job, by requiring him to only recruit and manage Captain stacks, he never has to bother with assembling Private Armies for people. He just spends the cash and washes his hands of the matter.
Please feel free to ask questions and point out any issues that you think might crop up. All of the people who helped create this understand the system and support it, so there should be plenty of people who can answer questions and clarify confusing parts. My objective at this point is to continue this discussion about these rule changes in this thread until the 1140 Senate session, at which point they will be proposed as a Charter Amendment.
Here is the wording of the exact changes that would be required:
Army Ownership Restructuring Changes:
Rule 4.1 – Private Armies is deleted.
Rule 4.2 – Royal Armies is deleted.
Rule 4.3 – Army Replenishment is deleted.
New Rules will be added as follows:
4.1 – Armies: Except as stated in Rule 4.2, all Senators own all army units that begin a turn in a stack led by their avatar, in the garrison of a settlement they own, and in the garrison of a fort inside a province they own, regardless of how the units got there. Senators instantly own any Captain-led stack that their avatar moves onto. No one may move or disband any units owned by a Senator without his permission.
4.2 – Seizing Armies: Any Senator may move his avatar onto an army owned by another Senator from the same feudal chain. If this occurs, the Senator with the highest feudal rank instantly owns the entire combined army. If both Senators are of the same rank, the eldest Senator will own the entire combined army. The Basileus may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the status of the Senator that previously owned it. A Senator may not move his avatar onto an army owned by a Senator from outside his feudal chain unless both Senators agree to the move beforehand. If there is a subsequent disagreement about who owns the units in the army, where the army is to move, or who commands the army, the Basileus will decide. This Rule does not apply to garrisons of settlements or forts. Avatars may never be seized.
4.3 – Naval Fleets: Naval fleets are owned by the Senator with the highest feudal rank who is onboard the fleet. If there are multiple Senators of the same rank, the eldest Senator will own the fleet. No one may move or disband any ships in a fleet owned by a Senator without his permission.
The following line is removed from Rule 5.2 – Civil War through Oath Breaking:
If a Civil War begins in this manner, any Senator who would lose the right to own a Private Army as the result of the breaking of the Oath of Fealty will be allowed to retain ownership of his Private Army until the Civil War ends.
Rule 1.4 – Game Management is re-written as follows (changes in bold):
1.4 – Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Megas Logothetes will post an annual report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Megas Logothetes may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of the Basileus. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war from the Basileus, a Megas Dux/Exarch or an Edict.
Penalty 1 is deleted from the rank of Strator.
Penalty 1 is deleted from the rank of Comes.
The rank of Domestikos gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Domestikos is loyal to another Senator.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Hypatos.
The rank of Hypatos gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 4 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Hypatos is loyal to another Senator.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Antypatos.
The rank of Antypatos gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 6 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Antypatos is loyal to another Senator.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Patrikios.
The rank of Patrikios gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Patrikios is loyal to another Senator.
Powers 5 and 10 are deleted from the rank of Dux.
The rank of Dux gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 10 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Dux is loyal to another Senator.
Powers 5 and 12 are deleted from the rank of Megas Dux/Exarch.
The rank of Megas Dux/Exarch gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 12 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Caesar.
The rank of Caesar gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term. This Power is cumulative with the ability to Prioritize units under any other rank held by the Caesar.
Powers 4 and 14 are deleted from the rank of Basileus.
The rank of Basilues gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 15 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term.
Power 2 and Limitation on Power 4 are deleted from the rank of Megas Logothetes.
The rank of Megas Logothetes gains the following Powers:
(2) The Megas Logotheses is responsible for all monetary expenditures in the game. The choice of what to build/recruit and where is entirely up to him, except as stated in the Limitations on Powers.
(3) The Megas Logothetes can move all armies that start a turn led by a Captain except as stated in Rule 4.1.
(4) The Megas Logothetes can move all fleets except as stated in Rule 4.3.
(5) The Megas Logothetes can move and use all agents.
The rank of Megas Logothetes has Limitation on Powers 2 is re-written as follows (changes in bold):
(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Prioritized Buildings cannot be funded until all Prioritized Units have been funded.
The rank of Megas Logothetes gains the following Limitation on Powers:
(4) Prioritized Units – No money can be spent on any recruitment until all Prioritized Units have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Units, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Senators may specify the Type of Unit to be recruited and the Location for the recruitment. The Type of Unit is restricted to the broad classifications of infantry, foot missiles, and cavalry. Artillery and Mercenaries cannot be Prioritized. A unit may be retrained instead of recruited if the unit is already located in a settlement where it can be retrained in some fashion. Except for the Basileus, the Location is restricted to any settlement owned by the Senator requesting the Prioritization or any settlement owned by a vassal in his feudal chain. The Basileus may specify any settlement in the Empire as the Location.
Miscellaneous Rule Cleanup Changes:
Rule 1.6 - Game Balancing is deleted.
The following line will be added to Rule 3.3:
Edicts are only binding on the players to the extent that the Senate chooses to enforce them.
A new Rule will be added as follows:
3.4a – * Amendments: Rules marked with a * can be permanently modified via an Amendment if TinCow gives his approval for the modification.
The key issues are twofold. First, we need to greatly simplify the army ownership rules. Second, we need to use IC enforcement of the rules as often as possible. I sought out the advice of several veteran players with history going back to WotS and KotR. Specifically AussieGiant, GeneralHankerchief, Ituralde, OverKnight, Privateerkev, Northnovas, and Ramses II CP. After several days of discussion, we have hammered out a plan that we think will work well. I will summarize it in plain english before listing the actual rule changes as would be embodied by a CA.
The army ownership system is simple to the extreme. If it's in your settlement, fort, or army, it's yours. The Megas doesn't need to pay any attention whatsoever to any armies except his own and Captain led stacks and fleets, which are absurdly easy to spot. There will also be no confusion amongst the players as to who owns what, so that problem is solved.
The only possible confusion arises when people co-mingle their armies. So, we resolve this IC and with the game engine. We make no change in the rules for settlement and fort garrisons whatsoever. This means you shouldn't park your army in a fort or settlement of someone you don't trust. If you do and they confiscate your army, whine about it IC, not OOC. This focuses the game back on the IC situation, not the OOC rules. Fleets are also owned by whoever is onboard them at any particular moment. This is simple and lets people control their own movement at sea without risking the Megas sending them sailing in circles until they die of scurvy.
Co-mingled armies in the field are a bit more complex, but can be solved in the same way. If armies are co-mingled in the field, the person with the highest feudal rank owns the entire stack. If both people are of the same rank, then the eldest avatar owns the stack. Just like with the garrison rule above, don't mingle your forces with someone you don't trust. Resolve it IC if it doesn't go the way you like it.
To give this a more feudal feel, people can 'seize' field armies belonging to any of their vassals. You're the Lord, after all, so that army is technically loyal to you. If someone is of a lower rank than you and in the same House, you can just move onto their stack and it becomes yours. There would be IC consequences to this, of course, but that's part of the fun. To keep with the theme that technically everyone is a vassal to the Basileus, the Basileus can seize anyone's army in the entire game. If the Basileus comes stalking looking to take your stack, you can either grovel and kiss his feet or declare war and fight him. Your choice. He's the Emperor after all.
Seizing also applies to Captain stacks, which gives even lowly Strators a shot at grabbing an army. You might piss off the Megas if you did it, but if you grabbed the right stack, you might be able to carve out your own mini-empire just by yourself. Fun all around.
So, that's that. A system that is clear for everyone, (relatively) simple to implement, and still allows for private ownership of armies and thus for PvP. The only thing it's missing is a way for Houses to have military power that is at least somewhat independent of the Megas.
We want to solve this in the simplest way possible, so we've embraced a system we already have that works just fine: Prioritization. We add a Prioritized Unit power onto all ranks, starting at Domestikos on up. Avatars with this power can require that a unit be recruited in any settlement they own or that their vassals own. As with some of the other powers, this one is only available to the 'top dog' in a feudal chain. To keep this balanced, the higher your rank, the more times you can use it per Megas term. This gives leaders of Houses the ability to supply their followers with military units in much the same way that Private Armies worked, but without the hassle of keeping track of the armies. The higher the top dog rank, the more military units he can prioritize, which maintains the current ability of large houses to field stronger armies.
To make this easy for the Megas to implement, we have put a couple restrictions on it. First, people can choose a general kind of unit to recruit (infantry, foot missiles, cavalry) but not an actual specific unit. This continues the current situation, where a friendly Megas can give you good units and a hostile Megas can give you bad units, but it prevents a hostile Megas from completely screwing you over, since you can still get at least the right kind of unit, if not the right type. Artillery and Mercs remain cannot be prioritized and can only be recruited if the Megas lets you. Second, the prioritization powers are only computed during Normal senate sessions (every 10 turns). This makes it easy to keep track of who can do what and also prevents several exploits of the system that could occur if it was a free-form system.
The large number of prioritized units that would be available pose a significant risk of bankrupting the Empire if they are all used. However, this is an IC issue and should be handled that way. If too many people are demanding maximum use of their prioritizations, argue about it in the Senate.
In the end, the system makes ownership of armies VERY easy to identify, or at least as easy as it's possible for it to be in the game. It also uses an existing and proven system (Prioritization) to give large houses power over smaller houses and unaligned Senators. It greatly simplifies the Megas' job, by requiring him to only recruit and manage Captain stacks, he never has to bother with assembling Private Armies for people. He just spends the cash and washes his hands of the matter.
Please feel free to ask questions and point out any issues that you think might crop up. All of the people who helped create this understand the system and support it, so there should be plenty of people who can answer questions and clarify confusing parts. My objective at this point is to continue this discussion about these rule changes in this thread until the 1140 Senate session, at which point they will be proposed as a Charter Amendment.
Here is the wording of the exact changes that would be required:
Army Ownership Restructuring Changes:
Rule 4.1 – Private Armies is deleted.
Rule 4.2 – Royal Armies is deleted.
Rule 4.3 – Army Replenishment is deleted.
New Rules will be added as follows:
4.1 – Armies: Except as stated in Rule 4.2, all Senators own all army units that begin a turn in a stack led by their avatar, in the garrison of a settlement they own, and in the garrison of a fort inside a province they own, regardless of how the units got there. Senators instantly own any Captain-led stack that their avatar moves onto. No one may move or disband any units owned by a Senator without his permission.
4.2 – Seizing Armies: Any Senator may move his avatar onto an army owned by another Senator from the same feudal chain. If this occurs, the Senator with the highest feudal rank instantly owns the entire combined army. If both Senators are of the same rank, the eldest Senator will own the entire combined army. The Basileus may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the status of the Senator that previously owned it. A Senator may not move his avatar onto an army owned by a Senator from outside his feudal chain unless both Senators agree to the move beforehand. If there is a subsequent disagreement about who owns the units in the army, where the army is to move, or who commands the army, the Basileus will decide. This Rule does not apply to garrisons of settlements or forts. Avatars may never be seized.
4.3 – Naval Fleets: Naval fleets are owned by the Senator with the highest feudal rank who is onboard the fleet. If there are multiple Senators of the same rank, the eldest Senator will own the fleet. No one may move or disband any ships in a fleet owned by a Senator without his permission.
The following line is removed from Rule 5.2 – Civil War through Oath Breaking:
If a Civil War begins in this manner, any Senator who would lose the right to own a Private Army as the result of the breaking of the Oath of Fealty will be allowed to retain ownership of his Private Army until the Civil War ends.
Rule 1.4 – Game Management is re-written as follows (changes in bold):
1.4 – Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Megas Logothetes will post an annual report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Megas Logothetes may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of the Basileus. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war from the Basileus, a Megas Dux/Exarch or an Edict.
Penalty 1 is deleted from the rank of Strator.
Penalty 1 is deleted from the rank of Comes.
The rank of Domestikos gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Domestikos is loyal to another Senator.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Hypatos.
The rank of Hypatos gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 4 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Hypatos is loyal to another Senator.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Antypatos.
The rank of Antypatos gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 6 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Antypatos is loyal to another Senator.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Patrikios.
The rank of Patrikios gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Patrikios is loyal to another Senator.
Powers 5 and 10 are deleted from the rank of Dux.
The rank of Dux gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 10 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, unless the Dux is loyal to another Senator.
Powers 5 and 12 are deleted from the rank of Megas Dux/Exarch.
The rank of Megas Dux/Exarch gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 12 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term.
Power 4 is deleted from the rank of Caesar.
The rank of Caesar gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term. This Power is cumulative with the ability to Prioritize units under any other rank held by the Caesar.
Powers 4 and 14 are deleted from the rank of Basileus.
The rank of Basilues gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 15 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term.
Power 2 and Limitation on Power 4 are deleted from the rank of Megas Logothetes.
The rank of Megas Logothetes gains the following Powers:
(2) The Megas Logotheses is responsible for all monetary expenditures in the game. The choice of what to build/recruit and where is entirely up to him, except as stated in the Limitations on Powers.
(3) The Megas Logothetes can move all armies that start a turn led by a Captain except as stated in Rule 4.1.
(4) The Megas Logothetes can move all fleets except as stated in Rule 4.3.
(5) The Megas Logothetes can move and use all agents.
The rank of Megas Logothetes has Limitation on Powers 2 is re-written as follows (changes in bold):
(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Prioritized Buildings cannot be funded until all Prioritized Units have been funded.
The rank of Megas Logothetes gains the following Limitation on Powers:
(4) Prioritized Units – No money can be spent on any recruitment until all Prioritized Units have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Units, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Senators may specify the Type of Unit to be recruited and the Location for the recruitment. The Type of Unit is restricted to the broad classifications of infantry, foot missiles, and cavalry. Artillery and Mercenaries cannot be Prioritized. A unit may be retrained instead of recruited if the unit is already located in a settlement where it can be retrained in some fashion. Except for the Basileus, the Location is restricted to any settlement owned by the Senator requesting the Prioritization or any settlement owned by a vassal in his feudal chain. The Basileus may specify any settlement in the Empire as the Location.
Miscellaneous Rule Cleanup Changes:
Rule 1.6 - Game Balancing is deleted.
The following line will be added to Rule 3.3:
Edicts are only binding on the players to the extent that the Senate chooses to enforce them.
A new Rule will be added as follows:
3.4a – * Amendments: Rules marked with a * can be permanently modified via an Amendment if TinCow gives his approval for the modification.