Naval Battles

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hey all,



Any of you guys plan on doing a lot of naval battles online, or will you mostly stick to land battles? I'll think I stick with land battles, I think I'm not a good ship person :pisces:.

[Sir Beane]

Naval battles for me! I'm much better informed about naval tactics than land tactics. :beam:

[Fondor_Yards]

Unless I end up sucking at naval ones, both equally.

[YellowMelon]

As I stated in a thread at CCS, I think class will have to start specializing. I mean it is possible that competitive players can become proficient in both land and naval battles, but in the past I have seen 1v1 specialists, team specialists, and I don't see why this won't apply to the introduction of naval 1v1 and naval team.

[Thermal]

Unless I end up sucking at naval ones, both equally.

What he said

[Fisherking]

Naval Tactics 101



Naval War you will find is simpler than land battles.

Go in with the strongest ships you can get and keep them together. Usually line a head works best…usually!

If you are up wind you have the advantage of closing quickly with the enemy. If you are down wind you can run away from the fight.

Close with the enemy and shoot for the rigging to cripple his movement then kill the crew with grape. Then wait for the ship to strike its colors. Round shot has a better range but it will sink him and you would rather capture the ships. Boarding is bloody so avoid it if you can.

If you think you are a real ace skipper you can try using lighter faster ships to damage him and capture them one at a time…Heavy Frigates do this work…

Happy Sailing!

[Sir Beane]

Naval Tactics 101



Naval War you will find is simpler than land battles.

Go in with the strongest ships you can get and keep them together. Usually line a head works best…usually!

If you are up wind you have the advantage of closing quickly with the enemy. If you are down wind you can run away from the fight.

Close with the enemy and shoot for the rigging to cripple his movement then kill the crew with grape. Then wait for the ship to strike its colors. Round shot has a better range but it will sink him and you would rather capture the ships. Boarding is bloody so avoid it if you can.

If you think you are a real ace skipper you can try using lighter faster ships to damage him and capture them one at a time…Heavy Frigates do this work…

Happy Sailing!

Good advice their Fisherking! Hopefully the game is accurate enough that these real world tactics actually apply.

[pevergreen]

Conceal the power of your fleet, flank and surprise him.

[Tomisama]

Naval Tactics 101

If you are up wind you have the advantage of closing quickly with the enemy. If you are down wind you can run away from the fight.



It is my understanding that the former windward approach (more aggressive but risky) was favored by the English (who had more ships to lose), and the opposite leeward attack was favored by the French of the same period (who had less). Neither was exclusive, but the consideration of the larger picture was of some effect.

If tacking is not required in the game, then most probably where the wind comes from may be nullified also. Does anyone have any definite knowledge?

[Fisherking]

It is my understanding that the former windward approach (more aggressive but risky) was favored by the English (who had more ships to lose), and the opposite leeward attack was favored by the French of the same period (who had less). Neither was exclusive, but the consideration of the larger picture was of some effect.

If tacking is not required in the game, then most probably where the wind comes from may be nullified also. Does anyone have any definite knowledge?

Tomisama

The British preferred to have the Weather Gage (up wind of the enemy), while the French wanted an avenue of escape.

Once battle is joined however it becomes difficult to flee with out some speed advantage and you may expose your self to a transom shot or a rake.(a shot through the back of the ship or straight down the bow)

Closing with the enemy is the ticklish part. Various maneuvers can be tried to put your self in the best position but having the Weather Gage gives you the initiative.

The windward would possibly expose you to long range fire but also may give you the advantage of crossing the T (shooting down the length of the line). It is usually a risk worth taking as ships in this position are almost guaranteed to damage the enemy vessels. The British considered long range fire a waste of ammunition and unlikely to result in serious damage. (not always so!)


Most of the decisive engagements were fought in under point blank range. (about 200m is considered point blank) Sometimes less than 50 feet!

Of course doctrine tells you to not allow the enemy to engage you decisively while you must find a way of defeating them “decisively”. A bit tricky!

Tacking is possible and gives you a speed advantage over sailing into the wind.

Ships in the game trying to sail up wind will be significantly slowed but will still make progress…rather than be blown backwards.

It should not nullify the Weather Gage.



I don’t know if I have made anything clearer or just gone on like a politician and said nothing?:smash:

[=NF=RuzSkullen]

So there will be a MP 4 the Naval Battles online, interesting I'll have to read the CCS topics

[Tomisama]

Tacking is possible and gives you a speed advantage over sailing into the wind.

Ships in the game trying to sail up wind will be significantly slowed but will still make progress…rather than be blown backwards.

It should not nullify the Weather Gage.

I don’t know if I have made anything clearer or just gone on like a politician and said nothing?:smash:

Then there will be wind effects :yes:

And yes, you did say something :yes:


A word to those who might think that sea battles might be less complicated than land ones.

If you have ever experienced trying to shoot from a moving platform, at another moving platform that is shooting back, you might reconsider your assesment :captain:

[Fisherking]

A very good point Tomisama.

A little lead goes a long way when targeting at a ranged target, and timing is essential so that the shot doesn’t just plow into a wave.

Also fire and maneuver is something to think about. Doing the unexpected, especially against a Human opponent is key if you expect to win.

Locking your ships together and seeing who has the best timber is not my idea of a true naval battle.

[KozaK13]

Ofc people are going to play naval battles...

Do you think that there will be naval maps? eg. North sea and mexican gulf? as different areas had different conditions? Also do you think reefs will rear thier ugly head?

[Sir Beane]

Ofc people are going to play naval battles...

Do you think that there will be naval maps? eg. North sea and mexican gulf? as different areas had different conditions? Also do you think reefs will rear thier ugly head?

Yes and yes. I especially hope reefs make it into the game. Fighting near a reef is a whole different game to fighting on the open sea. Suddenly the smaller boats with a shallower draught have a large advantage.

[t1master]

Naval Tactics 101



Naval War you will find is simpler than land battles.

Go in with the strongest ships you can get and keep them together. Usually line a head works best…usually!

If you are up wind you have the advantage of closing quickly with the enemy. If you are down wind you can run away from the fight.

Close with the enemy and shoot for the rigging to cripple his movement then kill the crew with grape. Then wait for the ship to strike its colors. Round shot has a better range but it will sink him and you would rather capture the ships. Boarding is bloody so avoid it if you can.

If you think you are a real ace skipper you can try using lighter faster ships to damage him and capture them one at a time…Heavy Frigates do this work…

Happy Sailing!

sounds like sid's pirates with upgraded graphics. hope it's more involved than that.

[CBR]

sounds like sid's pirates with upgraded graphics. hope it's more involved than that.
You will have more ships to control than Sid Meier's game :beam:

I doubt naval battles will have as much depth compared to land battles. Nice to play once in a while but something to play day after day...nah.


CBR

[pevergreen]

Speak for yourself. The sight of having two large ships, come up from behind, and dual flank a single one and rip through it. Ahhh :yes:. And even then, boarding, and hopefully, just maybe, explosive ships?

[Fisherking]

If it were as complex as it actually was just to sail a square rigged ship, I am afraid that we would all be far out of our depth. When it comes to weather and sail to fight a battle we would all be hopelessly lost.

Most people don’t know the difference between a sail and a sheet let alone know when to take a reef in one and may be pressed just to name the masts. You might consider your self expert if you can tell a stay from a jib, not even when to apply them.

Naval Battles in computer games need to be simple. If you think of the years it took to gain the sailing knowledge we would all loose. But then again, they would never be able to build an AI…

[KozaK13]

I agree, it will have to be very simple compared to the real thing, especially since we will all be what are often called "noobs" when it comes to naval combat.

There is a difference between sheets and sails? Stay's and jibs? talk sense man!:inquisitive:

[Fisherking]

There is a difference between sheets and sails? Stay's and jibs? talk sense man!:inquisitive:

Oh no, I’m not going there again! :laugh4:

As much as I would just love to give lessens on sailing a square-rigger, thankfully it is not needed in the game.:titanic:

The last time we got a little warning from the Camel Lord about off topic discussions…while this is naval, it isn’t something we “Need to Know”, so for now I will pass.:sweatdrop:

There are some hints given by the developers that some of this information my be needed but till then I will wait and see.

The only thing I have really heard hinted about though is putting springs to your anchors, or sea anchors.

If it is included it would allow you to turn the ship while sitting still and the mechanics aren’t all that important for here…just an option button in all likelihood. Much better to have in instantly done than delegate part of your crew and waiting for them to be installed.

Until then coil your hawsers neatly and square away. Spend this time in the Dog Watches to practice your scrimshaw or making Turks’ Heads. Soon we will clear for action and get underway.

:captain:


~:cheers:

[pevergreen]

Ah, but Fisherking, Multiplayer is not under Martok's domain.

[Fisherking]

Ah, but Fisherking, Multiplayer is not under Martok's domain.

Okay then the short answers to the four questions are:

Staysail is a fore-and-aft rigged sail whose luff can be affixed to a stay running forward (and most often but not always downwards) from a mast to the deck, the bowsprit or to another mast.

Jib A triangular staysail at the front of a ship. Any sail between the fore mast and the bowsprit.

Sheet is a rope used to control the setting of a sail in relation to the direction of the wind.

Sail I hope is obvious…

So, avast the skylarking Mr. Green, take in the Royals, feral the mains. I‘ll have a double reef in the Gallants if you please. Boatswain call all hands and clear for action!

I‘m sure were in for it now!

For that which we are about to receive…:sweatdrop:


:skull:

[Sir Beane]

Okay then the short answers to the four questions are:

Staysail is a fore-and-aft rigged sail whose luff can be affixed to a stay running forward (and most often but not always downwards) from a mast to the deck, the bowsprit or to another mast.

Jib A triangular staysail at the front of a ship. Any sail between the fore mast and the bowsprit.

Sheet is a rope used to control the setting of a sail in relation to the direction of the wind.

Sail I hope is obvious…

So, avast the skylarking Mr. Green, take in the Royals, feral the mains. I‘ll have a double reef in the Gallants if you please. Boatswain call all hands and clear for action!

I‘m sure were in for it now!

For that which we are about to receive…:sweatdrop:


:skull:

I see you've managed to find new recruits for your course on nautical terminology. :tongue: Although this one post has probably scared off a dozen or so users from ever trying naval combat. :laugh4:

"What's he talking about? He's speaking some kind of crazy moon language... I'm staying away from boats, they turn you odd". <- Typical landlubber Orgah. :clown:

[Fisherking]

I see you've managed to find new recruits for your course on nautical terminology. :tongue: Although this one post has probably scared off a dozen or so users from ever trying naval combat. :laugh4:

"What's he talking about? He's speaking some kind of crazy moon language... I'm staying away from boats, they turn you odd". <- Typical landlubber Orgah. :clown:


Then with Tomisama‘s permission of course?

I‘ll ask you to translate Admiral Sir Beane…:2thumbsup:

I am sure you can explain every word now can’t you. :whip:



:laugh4::laugh4:


Edit: Well it has been long hours and our Former Admiral has not presented himself…

Mr. Midshipman Sir Beane, are you present?

:hourglass:

[Tomisama]

Aye, we’re still on course here. Naval Battles require ship handling, it’s all good :wink:

And for the first time in my life I am about to understand the true meaning of “three sheets to the wind”, if Fisherking will be so kind.

:book:

[Fisherking]

As per the request of our gracious host and moderator, :bow:

Three Sheets in the Wind:

Sense you know that sheets are the ropes holding the sails, so they can be positioned to hold the tack (catch the wind) it isn’t a long step to understand the rest.


Sheets are fixed to the lower corners of sails, to hold them in place. If three sheets are loose and blowing about in the wind then the sails will flap and the boat will lurch about like a drunken sailor.


Sailors at that time had a sliding scale of drunkenness; three sheets was the falling over stage; tipsy was just 'one sheet in the wind', or 'a sheet in the wind's eye'.


Now one must ask, what ever has happened to our scullery man, Ah’ hum, sir Beane!

If I need go back and explain what was said, he may find himself kissing the Gunner’s Daughter!:whip:


:laugh4:

[KozaK13]

What are your opinions of naval battles now after the pc gamer review? where i think the reviewer said they were an unwieldy and chaotic "click fest" basically.

[Fisherking]

What are your opinions of naval battles now after the pc gamer review? where i think the reviewer said they were an unwieldy and chaotic "click fest" basically.


:furious3:I don’t necessarily think we should hold his opinion on high, with regard to his abilities.

Most of these guy are severely tried in ability if it get beyond a first person shooter of an arcade game.:whip:

Naval battle takes a different skill set than land battle. It is hard to believe there would be more clicking at sea than on land, unless the player is trying to micro manage and do too much.

Then again handling a ship is more complex than handling a single infantry unit. There are many more actions to be taken and there fore more possibilities of making a judgment error.

Handling ships becomes exponentially difficult after the first few. That is why they were deployed in line of battle. I do however vaguely remember that you can automate all of the actions of the ships and only need click on the key ships needing the most attention.

[CBR]

unwieldy and chaotic "click fest" basically.
Sounds about right when looking at the leaked video. At least in MP players might only be handling a handful of ships. For SP and up to 20 units...


CBR

[KozaK13]

I also hope to disagree with him, but he did give empire a good scoring. Perhaps he was playing with over 10 ships a side or something, no doubt that would be hectic.

[Polemists]

I think this goes back to numbers, if you looked at all the demonstrations, and times they showed off empire, they did 3 v 3 ships, or 4 v 4 ships. So it was nice and neat and not chaotic. Now the guy does 20 v 20 and big suprirse, it's chaotic.

that's like saying you did 1000 v 1000 land battle, then did 5000 v 5000 and big suprirse, it's more chaotic :laugh4:

I don't know why it would be a click fest, unless you play tw in real time..which for me loses purpose.

Pause, issue orders, enjoy the events.

I think the smaller battles will be fun and playable, but if your going to get into the 20 v 20 don't be suprirsed if you get some chaos.

[Sir Beane]

I agree with all those saying that it might just be the reviewer not being used to the style of gameplay.

Also I have to ask, does he know what a real naval battle should 'feel' like? If he does great, but maybe he doesn't and that is where his confusion came from. I reserve my opinion until I have played the game for myself, or read a review written by one of my fellow Orgahs.

As for battles being 'click-fests', there is a pause button for a reason and I suggest that he use it.

Chaotic controls might become a problem in MP. But it does mean that atleast there is some degree of challenge to becoming good at naval combat, even if the challenge is artificial.

[Polemists]

read a review written by one of my fellow Orgahs.

May not want to rely on this as I will probably spend 1/4 of my review discussing who much and why I like the new female advisor, and the other 3/4 about how much I like land battles and diplomacy.

Then I will probably be like, "Oh yea, and they have ships, they go boom.":laugh4:

[Fisherking]

Of course once the game is out, we could always ask/beg Jack Lusted to explain and or comment on it.

He is a CA Tester after all. I know he can not divulge some things or make opinionated comments but I hope a straight forward explanation or review of procedures would not be outside the realm of possibilities.

I am sure someone could ask him...

[Sir Beane]

Of course once the game is out, we could always ask/beg Jack Lusted to explain and or comment on it.

He is a CA Tester after all. I know he can not divulge some things or make opinionated comments but I hope a straight forward explanation or review of procedures would not be outside the realm of possibilities.

I am sure someone could ask him...

Once the game is out CA staff members won't need to be so tight-lipped about game features. I wouldn't be surprised if he answered questions, providing we don't bug him too much. :2thumbsup:

[Fisherking]

For those wishing to learn a bit more about ships, masts, sails, & rigging I have a link that will be somewhat informative. That way in the naval battles you will know what has been shot away if it doesn’t help you in any other way.


http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/square-rigging.html

[Graphic]

Yeah I just played two quick naval battles online and it was a huge clusterfudge. I set everything on low and the framerate is still extremely slow (8800GTX), then there's the netlag added onto that and the already sluggish nature of naval battles, then add on the terrible pathfinding (lol @ managing to have terrible pathfinding in OPEN SEA), and most of all, no one knows what their doing.

End result is a slideshow of 40 ships moving around and bumping into eachother at super close range with no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.

I will try again once ETW has had some patches fixes related to naval warfare.

[Tomisama]

Yeah I just played two quick naval battles online and it was a huge clusterfudge. I set everything on low and the framerate is still extremely slow (8800GTX), then there's the netlag added onto that and the already sluggish nature of naval battles, then add on the terrible pathfinding (lol @ managing to have terrible pathfinding in OPEN SEA), and most of all, no one knows what their doing.

End result is a slideshow of 40 ships moving around and bumping into eachother at super close range with no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.

I will try again once ETW has had some patches fixes related to naval warfare.It may be you don’t fully understand how the loss of hull, the loss of rigging, amount of sail and wind direction, affects movement.

I know I didn’t, and will still be learning for quite some time I’m sure.

Try setting your self up with one ship, them four ship Single Player battles.

Then try the Scenario Battles.

When you win them, enter your scores in our competition.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=279

Then you might be ready to add more ships.

But even then twenty per player will still be a long way off, and might be better left to teams?

No offence meant, almost everyone “way-way” underestimates the skill and experience necessary to become a Total War Admiral.

But a little study and practice will pay off :captain:

[Paolai]

naval batteles are very nice. Very well balanced and very tactic. I am enjoying a lot playing naval quick matches.

[Monarch]

I agree with all those saying that it might just be the reviewer not being used to the style of gameplay.

Also I have to ask, does he know what a real naval battle should 'feel' like? If he does great, but maybe he doesn't and that is where his confusion came from. I reserve my opinion until I have played the game for myself, or read a review written by one of my fellow Orgahs.

As for battles being 'click-fests', there is a pause button for a reason and I suggest that he use it.

.

I like how you suggest he doesn't know what a real naval battle feels like, and then suggests he should be using the pause button, just like in real battles right? Also, this forum concerns multiplayer..no pause button.

I've only tried a couple of naval battles offline, and I didn't have a clue what was going on. I think though that with all the manouvering and such theres potential for more tactical play than field battles.

[AggonyDuck]

I've played a lot of naval battles so far and I actually prefer them over the land battles at the moment. The fact that the emphasis is on large scale maneuver and not micromanagement is refreshing. The only issue I have with naval combat at the moment is rocket ship spam, which really is nigh unstoppable unless you are prepared for it. It was a wonderful experience to see my 14 ships of the line be utterly massacred by 15-17 rocket ships and a heavy first rate.:no: