points and questions, new or old

[omine-san]

Points :

LS event – you can get the Legendary swordsman in the first few years : almost certainly if you kill a taisho, certainly if you kill a daimyo. Also, getting your daimyo unit to battle is an option, if they kill many you get LS (risky).

Finance – the deciding season is summer, not autumn. The koku is decided before the battles of autumn take place, so the provinces you win/lose in the summer count.

Emissaries are better spies than shinobi or ninja as they do not get killed by border watch towers/forts, only by ninja. On the other hand, they give enemy ninja an easy way to gain honor and become more dangerous.

Your generals gain a win when the enemy abandons a province rather than fight; AI generals do not.

Questions :

Pluses and minuses – relative to what ? for example, does a +5 on WM attack mean +5% to kill, or +50%, or +5 on damage and units have ‘hit points’ ? how does it
work ?

Ninja assassinations – if I send an army into a province , and a ninja at the same time, assigned to kill the enemy taisho – if the ninja succeeds, will it count for ‘devastating effect on morale’ on this season, or the next ?

Archer sight line – if you two lines of archer units, each unit in 2 rows, one line behind the other – how far back should the second line be to avoid accuracy penalty ? and if they are on a cliff, the 2 lines on different heights, will that prevent penalty ? does the computer actually calculates the sight conditions for every situation , or are there set rules ?

If a unit’s formation is broken, does it effect fighting or morale ? for example, if an archer unit in 2 rows formation is attacked and its middle gives in, or if an enemy wedge breaks through a yari unit. If there is no effect, then it seems best to send units to battle in a wide formation, to have as many soldiers as possible engage, and maybe the extremes of the unit get a flanking bonus.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Welcome to the Sword Dojo, omine-san. I'll try to comment on your points and answer to your questions, with the exception of the arrow thing - I can imagine there are much more competent experts on the arrow ballistics stuff than myself.

Quote Your generals gain a win when the enemy abandons a province rather than fight; AI generals do not.[/QUOTE]Now here's something I hadn't noticed before. On the other hand, if it's you abandoning the province your general gets a loss, so... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote Pluses and minuses – relative to what ? for example, does a +5 on WM attack mean +5% to kill, or +50%, or +5 on damage and units have ‘hit points’ ? how does it
work ?[/QUOTE]The bonuses revolve around a complex algorithm that forms the core of STW's combat system. Its purpose is to determine whether one attack (say, a swing of the sword) kills an enemy soldier or not. I could post it here, but it's rather long and complex. Suffice it to say that even +1 is enough to make a difference, while +5 almost certainly guarantees victory.

Edit: I found I can answer your question after all - it's +20% per point initially, although the increase to chance is reduced on higher levels to avoid stuff like 250% kill chances. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif The probabilities involved are complex, however, since every man in the unit fights individually.

Quote Ninja assassinations – if I send an army into a province , and a ninja at the same time, assigned to kill the enemy taisho – if the ninja succeeds, will it count for ‘devastating effect on morale’ on this season, or the next ?[/QUOTE]That very season. Which means that to gain the benefit, you must send the ninja and your attacking army in on the same turn, *without* knowing whether the ninja will succeed or not! It's a gamble, but sometimes it pays off.

Quote If a unit’s formation is broken, does it effect fighting or morale ? for example, if an archer unit in 2 rows formation is attacked and its middle gives in, or if an enemy wedge breaks through a yari unit. If there is no effect, then it seems best to send units to battle in a wide formation, to have as many soldiers as possible engage, and maybe the extremes of the unit get a flanking bonus.[/QUOTE]There is a set morale penalty for being "out of formation", at least there used to be in the original STW, but I would imagine it is rather small with the reduced morale penalties in the expansion version. However, a more significant detriment to sending "thin" units to attack is the danger of the enemy breaking through the center of the unit - in that case, they can attack your other soldiers on the flank, which can be disastrous. In short, the use of wide formations is advisable only when you are sure you will win.

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"Sincere diplomacy is no more possible than dry water or wooden iron."
- Josef Stalin

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 08-27-2001).]

[omine-san]

[QUOTE]Welcome to the Sword Dojo, [b]omine-san.

Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif this is a great place !

actually, the players' generals do not get a loss when they abandon a province without a fight. I guess it's 'heads you win, tails you don't lose' ...

Let me see if I understand the percentages correctly : What matters is the difference between the attacker's attack figure and the defender's defense figure, for example - if WM attack Nags, they have 5 - 6 = (-1) total, and the Nags have 0 - 2 = (-2) total. So the WM have a +20% net advantage in kill ratio (of course as the battle progresses, there are less Nags then WM so the odds accumulate to the benefit of the WM). And the kill rate in this fight would be slower then in a fight between 2 YS units, while a fight between 2 Nag units (all other things being equal) would be almost peaceful. is this about right ?

One question I forgot about - what is a "troopstats" file ?

Eitan.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

The "troopstats" file is a text file which can be edited to alter ("mod") the attributes of the units in the game. Head over to the Editing, Mods and Patches Forum (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=4) for more information, like plans on how the experts among us plan to utilize it.

As for your other question, maybe I'll just post the entire rules reference again for good measure. This was posted by Uberuce-san long ago at the Community Forum. Quote It doesn't mention the bonus for attacking uphill or downhill, nor from improved weaponry. I assume it's the same as armour, one point for each level, so an attacker with legendary weapons has a 60% better chance of killing his opponenent.

Nor does it actually say for sure what the calculation for the attack/defence factors is. I assume it's 20% per point, so a Yari Samurai attacking a Naginata of identical honor/fatigue/armour/weapons has (0. ^6 chance of killing him. The way the numbers would have to work is for it be a successive multiplication rather than an addition/subtraction, or else a Yari Samurai has a -20% chance against a Naginata, which clearly isn't true. I've not been playing long, but I've never had Naginata come through a Yari assault unscathed, I always lose at least a couple of men.
Anyway, 0.8^6 is ~ 26%, that sound okay, anyone? That's 26% of whatever the base chance of victory is, which I assume is 50%, that is, two Samurai Archers duking it out have a 50% chance of dying. Hence, Yari Samurai vs Naginata gives a 14% chance of walking home to the boys with the spears.

That said, for say a No-Dachi attacking, you'd have a (1.2^5) chance against Samurai Archers, so 248% of 50% is 124%, which should mean zero casualties to the No-Dachi. That sounds like bollocks to me.

What sounds more feasible is the attack bonus takes 20% off the 50% base chance of not winning, which is exactly the same calculation as for defence, in that it leads to diminishing returns.
The equation for the attacker killing the defender would then be 1-{0.8^(attack factor)*0.5}

So for our No-Dachi Vs Samurai Archer showdown, we have (0.8^5 = 0.32)*.5 = 0.16, so a 84% chance of victory for the nasty bladey ones.

Let's take an extreme example: A fresh 4 honour No-Dachi from a 4 honour unit commanded by a 3 honour general, armed with legendary weapons, charges in wedge formation into the rear of a totally exhausted 0 honour Musketeer unit in wedge formation, routing on a bridge, led by Mr Bean, a -1 honour general
If you run through the list, you get an attack factor of +36, which gives a 99.9997%
chance of the No-Dachi soldier winning.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unit type: Yari ashigaru
Attack factor: -1
Defense factor: -1
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: -4
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12

Unit type: Yari samurai
Attack factor: 0
Defense Factor: 2
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 2
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10

No-Dachi
Attack factor: 5
Defense factor: -2
Armor: 1
Morale bonus: 8
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12

Warrior Monks
Attack factor: 5
Defense factor: 2
Armor: 1
Morale bonus: 8
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12

Naginata
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 6
Armor: 5
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 4
Run speed: 8

Yari Cavalry and Heavy Cavalry
Unit type: Yari cavalry
Attack factor: 2
Defense factor: 3
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 2
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 24

Unit type: Heavy cavalry
Attack factor: 2
Defense factor: 6
Armor: 5
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 20

Samurai Archers
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 0
Armor: 1
Morale bonus: 0
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10

Cavalry Archers
Attack factor: 1
Defense factor: 2
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 0
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 20

Arquebusiers and Musketeers
Unit type: Arquebusiers
Attack factor: -6
Defense factor: -3
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: -4
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12

Unit type: Musketeers
Attack factor: -6
Defense factor: -3
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: -4
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Each factor increase in this final value gives a 20 percent increase to the chance of killing the defender.

Combat Situation Factors
+ (attacker's personal honor + attacker's unit honor) / 2

- (defender's personal honor + defender's unit honor) / 2

+ (attacker's general's rank - defender's general's rank) / 2

+ Charge bonus if charging (depends on type)

- Defender's extra armor (from armory)


-4 If cavalry facing yari armed infantry

+4 If yari armed troops (infantry or cavalry) attacking cavalry

+5 Attacking flank

+7 Attacking rear

+12 Charging into flank or rear

+4 If defender is running away

+6 If the attacker pushed back the defender in a recent attack

Height Advantage or Disadvantage
-2 Cavalry attacking infantry in woods

+2 Infantry attacking cavalry in woods

+5 Defender has no space to fight properly (for example, on a bridge)

Formations
+3 Attacker is in wedge formation

+3 Defender is in wedge formation

-2 Attacker is in Hold the Line mode

-2 Defender is in Hold the Line mode

Adjustment For Attacker's Fatigue
-2 Quite tired

-3 Very tired

-4 Exhausted

-6 Totally exhausted

Adjustments for Defender Fatigue
+1 Very tired

+2 Exhausted

+3 Totally exhausted[/QUOTE]and an addition by Puzz3d-san: Quote The calculation is a simple addition/subtraction method. Each man goes through many attack/defense phases during a fight, and may have to defend more than once during his defense phase. I've never seen the base probability for a kill specified, but the formula provides the percentage advantage or disadvanage an individual man has against another man. The formula is attackers attack value - defenders defense value + bonus combat modifier. Each point represents a 20% difference in probability of a kill. Many of the bonus modifiers do not have values specified. You have to get a feel for these by playing. Use custom battle mode on normal difficulty, and get the green map for a flat surface. Increasing honor increments the attack and defense values of a unit alternately. The attack value is incremented first.

For instance, on a flat surface without any charging bonus and honor=0 a yari samurai vs a naginata would be:

YS attack phase, 0-6+0=-6 (-120%)
N attack phase, 0-2+0=-2 (-40%)

So the Naginata enjoy an 80% advantage, and the kill rate for these two engaged units will be low. If you boost the YS honor to 4,you get:

YS attack phase, 2-6+0=-4 (-80%)
N attack phase, 0-4+0=-4 (-80%)

Now the H4 yari samurai are equal to the H0 naginata. The kill rate is still going to be low due to the high defensive values. Keep in mind that the bonus combat modifiers are a big factor, and can easily shift the advantage to the weaker unit.[/QUOTE]A lot of this is just speculation, since the developers don't release exact specifications, but it's pretty much all we have.

And BTW, this thread should end up in the Strategy Archive.

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"Sincere diplomacy is no more possible than dry water or wooden iron."
- Josef Stalin

[Shiro]

Let me send you to the real Editing, Mods, and Patches Forum (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=5&SUBMIT=Go) and not the Clan, Clan Recruitment, and Tournaments Forum (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=4).
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Gothmog]

Great info, Anssi Hakkinen. Thanks a lot.

About the taisho's victory/defeat record though. If the AI attacks you and decides against it, you get a free win; on the other hand, if you attack then call off the attack, your record remain spotless.

Also, if you abandon a province, there is no penalty. Not sure about the retrieve to the castle option, for I seldom do that, but I suppose it's NOT considered as a defeat when you are playing against AI.

It seems that as long as you abondon a fight BEFORE deploying your troops on the battle field, it won't go to the record.

Also, if any taisho attack an undefended province, it won't be add to your victory record.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

What are you talking about, Shiro-san? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

This thread need not be moved anywhere (except for the Strategy archive) really. It's the rules of the game, not a proposal to modify it.

And as for that rank issue, I guess I didn't remember correctly. I'll have to test that once I get MI (today! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif ).

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"When on the battlefield, if you try not to let others take the lead and have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, then you will manifest martial valour. This fact has been passed down by the elders. Furthermore, if you are slain in battle, you should be resolved to have your corpse facing the enemy."
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo: Hagakure