Shrapnel Shot Glitch

[Megas Methuselah]

You guys encounter this yet? It allows arty with the shrapnel shot (that's the advanced grapeshot, right? I dunno, I don't use regular arty.) to fire far beyond their 400-range.

I believe the player just has to ground-fire the target, even if its outside the 400 range, and the arty shell explodes in the air, and sends the little musketballs all over the place way beyond the 400 range.

I've seen arty with 400-range (24-pnds) fire 3/4 across the map doing this.

[Veho Nex]

You guys encounter this yet? It allows arty with the shrapnel shot (that's the advanced grapeshot, right? I dunno, I don't use regular arty.) to fire far beyond their 400-range.

I believe the player just has to ground-fire the target, even if its outside the 400 range, and the arty shell explodes in the air, and sends the little musketballs all over the place way beyond the 400 range.

I've seen arty with 400-range (24-pnds) fire 3/4 across the map doing this.

yeah I was seeing that today. They outranged my howitzers by atleast 5 times. My 12lbers also.

[Jochi Khan]

Yes, it showed up in a game last night.
One player was complaining about it being used against him in the deployed zone.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I suppose there will be rules of honour against this, before the patch comes in, such as "no jump-walking in CoD MP"?

[KrooK]

I don't think so.
Its stupid bug but it does not give any unfair advantage for anyone (exept people who are not campers with howitzers on hill).

[Tomisama]

You guys encounter this yet? It allows arty with the shrapnel shot (that's the advanced grapeshot, right? I dunno, I don't use regular arty.) to fire far beyond their 400-range.

I believe the player just has to ground-fire the target, even if its outside the 400 range, and the arty shell explodes in the air, and sends the little musketballs all over the place way beyond the 400 range.

I've seen arty with 400-range (24-pnds) fire 3/4 across the map doing this.
Tested 24 pounders in all shot configurations, and found round and shrapnel shot to have the same range, with canister a bit shorter. It must be an intermittent bug or situation dependent; as there seems to be no overshoot on a normal flat field, so at least it is not a consistent bug.

It would help to have a replay of this action to determine exactly what’s going on here, as there are other explanations to what you have witnessed.

And not saying that you are mistaken, but I have investigated over-range complaints before, and in every case they were errors in perception, not in game specifications.


Further research:

According to one source, canister shot could be lethal up to three hundred yards.

http://www.americanrevolution.org/artillery.html

To another source case shot (shrapnel) was good for four hundred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_shot

Another tells us 24 pounder round shot was limited to about four hundred yards also (flat trajectory I guess) .

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2000/january/ships/cannon.htm

You may be able to find other better statistics, but with little effort the above substantiates the range relationships (to each other) in the game anyway.

Just for comparisons sake :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cannon_projectiles

[AggonyDuck]

The problem is that after the patch shrapnel shot is lethal at almost any range, while before they might have been lethal to about 450 meters. Now even though the range is reduced it is possible to kill at distances even further than before. Especially height advantage will increase the possible range immensely with Provence propably being the best place to utilise the overshoot. And Tomi, it is definately possible to overshoot with shrapnel. As it is I'm regularly able to kill targets at 400 meters with shrapnel and if sitting on a hill the lethal range is a lot more. That said, I haven't examined the mechanics of the glitch completely.

[Tomisama]

And Tomi, it is definately possible to overshoot with shrapnel. As it is I'm regularly able to kill targets at 400 meters with shrapnel and if sitting on a hill the lethal range is a lot more.

I don’t see that we are in disagreement here :smile:


case shot (shrapnel) was good for four hundred yards (my meters) :dizzy2:


there seems to be no overshoot on a normal flat field



Questions:

Don't all types of artillery shot have greater range when fired with a heigth advantage?

Major-General Henry Shrapnel (1761–1842), invented shrapnel shell to kill more effectively than canister, and at a farther range.

I don't understand how this is a glitch?

[AggonyDuck]

Simply due to the fact that on a map like Provence, the lethal range can be up to 750 meters or more.

[FactionHeir]

In SP at least, Canister and Shrapnel (and any other ammo) can hit further than the max range, but will not kill anyone then. They will however still reduce morale normally.

[AggonyDuck]

In MP it seems that the shrapnel is lethal at any range, but the increased spread reduces the casualties so that a unit hit by shrapnel might lose around 1-3 men per shot.

[thurjack_mahr]

I'm not entirely sure this is a "bug" per say....

With Round Shot, the balls are now bouncing. So it's very possible to aim at the edge of your firing arc and have the cannonball roll across the ground like a bowling ball well past it's range. I think that's part of the design of round shot, and part of what makes it viable.

Sharpal Shot is currently also able to "overshoot" - if you target a unit with Sharpal Shot that is slightly outside the range revealed by the red, the cannon will take a shot.

I guess here is my question - are cannons supposed to be completely ineffective past the red zone? Or is the red zone the "recommended range for accuracy"? If the red zone is the latter, than I don't think this is a bug... the cannons get REALLY ineffective past the red range!

[FactionHeir]

As I said, from my extensive SP knowledge, the range is absolute, anything even slightly past it will not kill (i had several roundshots hit an enemy formation like that but nothing more than morale damage).

Shrapnel experience isn't too great, usually it ends up just the main projectile hitting the floor and doing nothing. I imagine its certainly possible that the new coding may cause the canister from the shrapnel to have the same range as normal canister at the point of shrapnel explosion.

[Tomisama]

at the point of shrapnel explosion

Exactly!

Kill zone of a shrapnel shell is measured from the point of detonation.

It flies like round shot, but kills like near point blank canister.



Shrapnel or spherical case shot An iron anti-personnel projectile containing an interior cavity packed with lead or iron round balls around a small bursting charge of just enough force to break open the thin-walled iron projectile. A powder train in a thin iron sleeve led to a time fuse inserted into a holder at the outer edge or the projectile. The fuse was designed to be ignited by flame from the propellant charge. Ideally the case shot fuse would detonate the central bursting charge when the projectile was six to ten feet above the heads of enemy infantry thereby showering them with the iron balls and fragments of the casing. (Invented 1784 by Lt. Henry Shrapnel, Royal Artillery, Great Britain).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cannon_projectiles

[Tomisama]

Just remembered this from the 1.3 update list from Steam update history.



Artillery Changes

Calibration area for cannons and howitzers reduced. Accuracy of non-round shot shot types reduced to compensate.

Muzzle velocity of round shot for cannons increased to make them fire lower and bounce more, accuracy also increased.

Lethality of shrapnel pieces reduced to match canister shot, range also reduced to 350.

Load time for special shot types for howitzers increased slightly, and range reduced to 350.

Calibration area for mortars increased, accuracy of round shot increased to compensate. Reload time increased slightly.

Accuracy of 18 lbr horse guard artillery restored to 65.

Hit points of gun trains increased to 50, all guns and caissons to 25.


Is any of this true?

I mesured round and shrap to be the same (red line is same anyway).

Do we now have an 18 pounder hourse artillery unit?

Now I have to go check :inquisitive:

[AggonyDuck]

It is true. The red line for shrapnel is shorter than that of the round shot and the 18-pounder guard horse artillery has been around from the start as a French unit.

[Tomisama]

It is true. The red line for shrapnel is shorter than that of the round shot and the 18-pounder guard horse artillery has been around from the start as a French unit.

Ahhh, found it. Didn’t know that (the result of playing one faction too much) :embarassed:

And true on the round shot vs. shrapnel. At least the markers are about 350 and 400 respectively. I was surprised to find canister marker at only around 100 (guessing).

Did examine the fire line markers and actual firing patterns a bit more, and there is less correlation than I expected. Overshoots a common occurrence, but as much as undershoots I guess. In the end I would not put too much (read any) faith in the red lines, and fire for effect to get your bearings :juggle2:

[AggonyDuck]

I think the key to the overshoot's potential range is the height of the projectile during explosion. If it explodes high in the air the trajectory can send the fragments flying in a wide lethal fan against the enemy troops at considerable ranges. Still haven't quite figured the mechanics that cause shrapnel to explode high in the air, but height advantage does seem to pay a big part.

[Tomisama]

Each model of cannon was equipped with a Table of Fire, which was affixed to the inside of the lid of the limber chest:

The columns show the elevation in degrees, the projectile, the range in yards, and the time of flight in seconds.

The gunner having determined the range of the target, the men at the limber chest would give him the elevation, to be used in aiming the piece, and use the time of flight given by the table to set the fuses. A certain amount of mathematical skill was expected in order to extrapolate from the ranges given in the table.
http://www.cwartillery.org/artammo.html

:2thumbsup:

[FearofNC]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=47030&d=1246735333

you can download a replay of the shrapnel bug here...

select round shot first... pick a spot on the ground higher than your cannons and at the end of the 400 range for round shot and force fire. after command is accepted switch to shrapnel shot.

on a flat map this can still be used to extend shrapnel shot out to 400+ instead of 350.. but the extreme range comes from combining both exploits.

[okeenan]

As far as I can tell its as simple as taking off fire at will and firing at the highest and/or furthest point you can in the general direction of the enemy then adjust from there. The firing arc is determined more or less by this. Your shot will not make it to the point you're aiming at and will fade out somewhere in between. The further and higher you aim (including off the map and thats your real limitation) the further your shot will go.:2thumbsup: :smg: :surrender: