Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion [Archive]

Cute Wolf

01-20-2010, 13:38

---
NUSANTARA TOTAL WAR : The Portugese Invasion
------------------------------------------------

Timeline : 1511 - 1654 (12 turns per year)
Location : West Indonesian - Malaysian Archipelago
Spanning from the time of First Portugese invasion (1511) until the conclusion of Dutch-Portugese Wars (1654)
This Posts are updated in 04/14/2010; Older proposals are spoilered in the my next post(s)...

Mod Plattform: RTW - BI (completely modfoldered, thanks for Wlesmana's guiding hands :grin:)

The Mod Completion:
- Background Historical Research = Complete
- Factional lists and in depth Military-related Historical Research = Complete
- Units and Battle Concept = Halfway, about 50% are completed (including the statistical balance), the rests are still in progress
- Script planning = Halfway, all the historical events and scripts have been completely planned, we still have to doing the in game progress though
- Campaign map = In Progress (see the map section for lastest progress), as we made entirely new campaign map full of waters (and very2 prone to landmass ratio CTD :tongue:)
- Coding = Almost complete (the EDU have been tested with vanilla models, Traits are halfway implementation, and EDB lists are complete (still need writing in game though))
- Unit Modelling = Just begun, (we only recently get some moddelers and skinners, and allready some progress

(Almost) Completely Redone Faction Symbols:
-----------------------------------------

Kesultanan Aceh Darrusalam
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/aceh.png

Kesultanan Melayu Melaka
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/malaka.png

Kesultanan Palembang Darrusalam
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/palembang.png

Keraton Bintara
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/bintara.png

Keraton Pakuan Pajajaran
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/pajajaran.png

Maharaja Sriwijaya
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/sriwijayahindu.png

Keraton Majapahit
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/majapahit.png

Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie
https://img686.imageshack.us/img686/6084/vocx.jpg

- lazy me, but the Portugese symbols will be the same, and directly taken from M2TW :tongue: -

=============================================

Game Mechanics:

Religion:
*. 3 Religions (Hindu-Buddhist , Islam , Christianity) , at the Campaign, most of the named character (generals) can be born / spawned / adopted with almost all religion available, depending on several triggers. Almost all factions have the chance to change their religion, with several exception...
*. Religious conversion is too fast if it was a real conversion rate... so we will tone them down, and change it to "Religious influence", which represent not "quantitative followers" but "political power"
*. Religion Relation and factions:
-These factions can built every religion (Islam, Christian, and 4 Hndu-Buddhist temples) : Palembang, Sriwijaya, Pajajaran, Bintara, Majapahit, so you could play altered history with them....
-These factions (Melayu culture) can built Islam and Hindu-Buddhist religious structures, but never Churches : Aceh, Malaka, and can't convert to Christianity too.... so you are forced to embrace Islam, or back to the Old Gods.... no Christian
-European factions only get Christian generals adopted / promoted... and could only build Churches... and.... They won't convert at all. So prepare to face massive red face if you don't sent proper missionaries first....
-When you see "Missionaries" and question yourself... yeah, Portugal and Dutch diplomats will have the "Missionary" traits which give bonus religion influence points... Yeah, You'll see that Portugal will have Fransiscus of Assisi present at the start, and Missionary diplomats are essential to European factions because they are the one that could stop the red face growing, by spreading Christian influence beffore you conquer a province. And hence gives you a chance to start the Colonialization... that way, is another reason to exclude Christianity from Melayu culture factions... to made European life harder for a bit Well - well, it's then up to you if you just want to sack the city for gold and glory, or spread Christian influence, and spread the gospel... (in game terms, it forces European AI horde to sparsely colonize the North Sumatera and malaysia, and goes to south sumatera and Java, as the history does)... but REMEMBER: PORTUGAL can't recruit Diplomats!!! they are spawned at the missionary's historical work points. This was done to made colonization harder then.... and... we won't have Imams or Hindu priest or Buddhist monk as agent...

Rectuitment System:
- reserved -

==============================================
The Campaign Map

The Historical Map:
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/Finalregionmap.jpg

Lastest Progress:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=3369&pictureid=36570
https://j.imagehost.org/0022/0004.jpg

==============================================

The Models

Lastest Progress:
https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/portug01.jpg
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/milisimelayu.jpg

==============================================
The Contacts

Mod Leader : Cute Wolf (Strategos Lykos (ME!))
Mod Co-Leader : Sonic (have no TWC account)
Historical Research Leader : Sonic
Historical Research Co-Leader : Gaius Septimus Severus (Publius Otho)
Public Relation Leader : Gaius Septimus Severus
Mapping and 2D-Artist Leader : Cute Wolf
Modelling and 3D-Artist Leader : Wlesmana
Unit Research Leader : Sonic
Unit Research Co-Leader : Plutoboyz, Intifadanyz
Unit Balancing and Battle Mechanic Leader : Sonic
Campaign Scripting event Leader : Cute Wolf
Campaign Scripting event Co-Leader : Gaius Septimus Severus
File Scripting Leader : Sonic
Grammatical Head : Quirinus

Member :
Unit Research and naming conventions for Sundanese Factions : Plutoboyz
Unit Research and naming conventions for Aceh - Malaka Factions : Intifadanyz, Quirinus
Unit Research and naming conventions for Sriwijayan Factions : Juragan Bata
Unit Research and naming conventions for Javanese Factions : Juragan Bata
Trait Developer : Quirinus, Juragan Bata
Dutch and European history proof readers and naming : Skullheadhq
Portuguese and European history proof readers and naming : Jolt, Condestável
Modelling and Skinning: Finn Mac Cumhail, Jirisys

Special thanks to : Jolt, NeoDeus, Skullheadhq, Saomofrome, for some of their contribution and suggestions...

========================================

Links to thread at TWC: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=313706
Internal Discussion at Mod Discussion (indonesian-Malaysian mumblings!!!!) : https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?123821-Nusantara-Total-War

Skullheadhq

01-20-2010, 14:01

Do you guys need a researcher for VoC or a symbol/banner/2d art maker?

Cute Wolf

01-20-2010, 14:17

Do you guys need a researcher for VoC or a symbol/banner/2d art maker?

Sure... as well as someone who could do the dutch naming for VOC units (just naming)... but then, I've allready made the VOC symbol myself...
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logodutch3colour.jpg

and from your suggestion
https://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6250/66368186.jpg

Just curious, I got orange top flag, and you get red topped.... which one is the correct flag back at 16th century then :yes:

and skull, hope your slavemaster in AtB and Strategos TW don't whip you again if you decide to get moar jobz :clown:

*. ADD!!!:

And for someone who'll ask : "What the Hell that North Australian terriotry do?" seriously, this territory was added to prevent map ratio CTD... and in campaign, it will be used to spawn VOC invasion later in the game (before teleport them to their proper place)

Skullheadhq

01-20-2010, 14:20

Sure... as well as someone who could do the dutch naming for VOC units (just naming)... but then, I've allready made the VOC symbol myself...
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logodutch3colour.jpg

and from your suggestion
https://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6250/66368186.jpg

Just curious, I got orange top flag, and you get red topped.... which one is the correct flag back at 16th century then :yes:

Red topped. No worries, my slavemasters won't find out, hehehe...

plutoboyz

01-20-2010, 14:31

...
Currently we need :
...
- And someone who could speak english properly to correct our bloody grammar :sweatdrop:
...

put me there.:2thumbsup:

Cute Wolf

01-20-2010, 15:40

OLDER FIRST POST

Timeline : 1511 - 1654 (12 turns per year)
Location : West Indonesian - Malaysian Archipelago
Spanning from the time of First Portugese invasion (1511) until the conclusion of Dutch-Portugese Wars (1654)

Previous discussion at this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=123821 -> feel free to talk there though, if you want to say and discuss something serious in Bahasa Indonesia / Melayu, this thread is reserved to development of this mod in English language (because we may had some team members who can't understood our mumbling in Indo-Malayan language :sweatdrop:)

Well, after getting significant progress in the research and mapping, we can say that everything principal for research is mostly done, so.... The faction lists is allready finished... just need to modify some of the faction Symbol involved (still debating (!) some symbols and military signs used), but the faction lists is finished (maybe minor nitpick with their name, as well as some fringe map area).

Anyway, here's the faction lists and it's initial regions:
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/Finalregionmap.jpg

CERTAINLY PLAYABLE -> Represent 1 united kingdom / faction, and not disputed anymore, as well as have proper family tree for starting with...
Red = Kesultanan Aceh Darussalam (ACEH)
Blue = Kesultanan Melayu Malaka (MALAKA)
Brown = Kesultanan Palembang Darussalam (PALEMBANG)
Cyan = Keraton Pakuan Pajajaran (PAJAJARAN)
Green = Keraton Demak Bintara (BINTARA)
White = Did you see the portugal symbol? That's where the Portugal "horde" just land, and try to conquer Malaka.... (PORTUGAL)

MAYBE PLAYABLE, MAYBE NOT -> Their actual empire is officialy "dead" in mainline history books, but this faction will represent ousted royal family, as well as cities that still loyal to their previous lord... we hope to made them playable, but it was still debated internally (with our historians), afterall, they are closer to "unique rebel" factions if they are finally unplayable....
Purple = Maharaja Sriwijaya (SRIWIJAYA) / Remnants of Sriwijaya
--> The Hindu - Buddhist remnants of Sriwijaya Empire, that still united in one thing, even still had Sriwijayan Royal dynasty to rule them... but they are "dislocated" as their historical capital has been occupied by the muslim Palembang Sultanates...
Yellow = Keraton Majapahit (MAJAPAHIT) /
--> Just recently fallen majapahit capital doesn't mean the Royal dynasty of majapahit is dead, actually they just move into bali and east fringe of java island, and continue to harass the Islamic sultanates in Java for 200 years, still calling themself Majapahit. The western fringe on Yogyakarta, are the Mataraman area, who still had loyalty to Majapahit.

UNPLAYABLE -> The horde who arrive (and invade) later in the game
-> BLACK (well, the campaign map won't be coloured black... I use the coarse "map_heights" to made the starting regions map....) = Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie (DUTCH)

===================================================================

Faction Logo (Once again... I will say... Hope this is final :sweatdrop: if sonic start meddling again...)

----

Kesultanan Aceh Darussalam :
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logoaceh-1.jpg

Kesultanan Melayu Malaka :
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logomalaka-1.jpg

----

(Both Sriwijaya and Palembang use "Lotus" Symbol... so I Place Buddhist Lotus in Sriwijaya, and Ornamental Lotus in Palembang)

Kesultanan Palembang Darussalam :
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logopalembang.jpg

Maharaja Sriwijaya :
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logosriwijaya-1.jpg

----

Keraton Pakuan Pajajaran :
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logopajajaran-1.jpg

Keraton Demak Bintara :
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logobintara.jpg

Keraton Majapahit :
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logomajapahit-1.jpg

----

European Horde Symbol = Basically the same with those of M2TW (for portugese), and VOC logo for VOC

===================================================================

Game mechanics (expect this section will be updated again)

Weaponary: we have three kind of weapon type : Normal, Enchanted (for Hindu-Buddhist religion), and Gunpowder...

Religion:
*. 3 Religions (Hindu-Buddhist , Islam , Christianity) , at the Campaign, most of the named character (generals) can be born / spawned / adopted with almost all religion available, depending on several triggers. Almost all factions have the chance to change their religion, with several exception...
*. Religious conversion is too fast if it was a real conversion rate... so we will tone them down, and change it to "Religious influence", which represent not "quantitative followers" but "political power"
*. Religion Relation and factions:
-These factions can built every religion (Islam, Christian, and 4 Hndu-Buddhist temples) : Palembang, Sriwijaya, Pajajaran, Bintara, Majapahit, so you could play altered history with them....
-These factions (Melayu culture) can built Islam and Hindu-Buddhist religious structures, but never Churches : Aceh, Malaka, and can't convert to Christianity too.... so you are forced to embrace Islam, or back to the Old Gods.... no Christian
-European factions only get Christian generals adopted / promoted... and could only build Churches... and.... They won't convert at all. So prepare to face massive red face if you don't sent proper missionaries first.... :grin:
-When you see "Missionaries" and question yourself... yeah, Portugal and Dutch diplomats will have the "Missionary" traits which give bonus religion influence points... Yeah, You'll see that Portugal will have Fransiscus of Assisi present at the start, and Missionary diplomats are essential to European factions because they are the one that could stop the red face growing, by spreading Christian influence beffore you conquer a province. And hence gives you a chance to start the Colonialization... that way, is another reason to exclude Christianity from Melayu culture factions... to made European life harder for a bit :2thumbsup: Well - well, it's then up to you if you just want to sack the city for gold and glory, or spread Christian influence, and spread the gospel... (in game terms, it forces European AI horde to sparsely colonize the North Sumatera and malaysia, and goes to south sumatera and Java, as the history does)... but REMEMBER: PORTUGAL can't recruit Diplomats!!! they are spawned at the missionary's historical work points. This was done to made colonization harder then.... :laugh4: and... we won't have Imams or Hindu priest or Buddhist monk as agent...

Mosque complex bonus :
- Preventing "enchanted weapon" units to be trained
- Good Law Bonus
- Moderate Hapiness Bonus
- Moderate Health Bonus
- Moderate Trade Bonus
- Capability to recruit some certain units

Church complex bonus:
- Preventing "enchanted weapon" units to be trained
- Excellent Hapiness Bonus
- Good Health Bonus
- Good Law Bonus
- Good population growth penalty (!) - so it will reduce your tax then :laugh4:

That two religion got traits and triggers unmodified, except some religious related one then...

Hindu-Buddhist temple complex:
1) Temple complex dedicated to Buddha
- Excellent Hapiness Bonus
- Good Law Bonus
- Small health Bonus
- Small Trade Bonus
- Gives your FM / generals more probability to get better management related traits
2) Temple complex dedicated to Brahma
- Excellent Health Bonus
- Good Hapiness Bonus
- Gives your FM / Generals more probability to get better influence related traits
3) Temple complex dedicated to Vishnu
- Good law Bonus
- Good Trade Bonus
- Moderate hapiness Bonus
- Small health Bonus
- Gives your FM / Generals more probability to get better income related traits
4) Temple complex dedicated to Shiva
- Excellent law Bonus (the smallest normal bonus in sums)
- Gives your FM / Generals better command skills and valors
- Capability to recruit some certain "Fanatics / Berserker-type" units
- The top tier get the capability to grant 1 exp (and it was the only free exp buildings... no other building had exp / morale bonus then)

Weaponary upgrade:
- Normal weapons could be upgraded in Blacksmith
- Enchanted weapons could be upgraded in some certain "Mystical" regions, and only when they had no mosques or Churches inside!
- Gunpowder couldn't be upgraded...

===================================================================
Our Contacts (so you can ask to the right man when you want to ask) and rough job description (well, as our team still need some position, this will be changed except Mod Founder* (who had the original Idea) = Cute Wolf, Sonic, Gaius Septimus Severus , at their chosen position (*) )

Mod Leader : Cute Wolf*
Mod Co-Leader : Sonic*
Historical Research Leader : Sonic*
Historical Research Co-Leader : Gaius Septimus Severus
Public Relation Leader : Gaius Septimus Severus*
Mapping and 2D-Artist Leader : Cute Wolf*
Modelling and 3D-Artist Leader : Wlesmana
Modelling and : Finn Mac Cumhail, Jirisys
Unit Research Leader : Sonic
Unit Research Co-Leader : Plutoboyz
Unit Balancing and Battle Mechanic Leader : Sonic*
Campaign Scripting event Leader : Cute Wolf
Campaign Scripting event Co-Leader : Gaius Septimus Severus
File Scripting Leader : Sonic
Grammatical Head : Quirinus

Member :
Unit Research and naming conventions for Sundanese Factions : Plutoboyz
Unit Research and naming conventions for Aceh - Malaka Factions : Quirinus
Trait Developer : Quirinus
Dutch and European history proof readers and naming : Skullheadhq

Special thanks to : NeoDeus, Skullheadhq, Saomofrome, for some of their contribution and suggestions...

=====================================================================

Currently we need :

- Some Modellers (to made some model, as Wlesmana can only work part time, and he allready had his own other mod projucts)
- Skinners
- And someone who could speak english properly to correct our bloody grammar :sweatdrop:

And the map (in progress)
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9851/25737141060103397715010.jpg

=====================================================================

Thank You

Cute Wolf

plutoboyz

01-20-2010, 16:24

LOL... you have the same bloody Indoenglish grammar like us.... :laugh4: -> I hope to get real english speaker who could actually correct our bloody grammar in export_unit and another description texts.... in their english relase. The unit name will use Jawa, Melayu, Sunda, dst native language, but their description will be in english...

:laugh4: btw Google translate is good translator tool.

Skullheadhq

01-20-2010, 17:48

Quirinus

01-20-2010, 18:45

Hi, so..... can I get the job of writing the descriptions? Either for the units, buildings or faction campaigns. Or I could help with developing the traits system.. these are the only two modding things I'm actually decent at, so..

Cute Wolf

01-20-2010, 19:00

Also, the VoC was founded in 1602, which is after this timeline. You can make the campaign end in 1654, the end of the Dutch-Portuguese war, which the Portuguese lost. This makes a nice end for "Portuguese invasion"

This was only the logo of the Amsterdam department:
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/logodutch3colour.jpg

Yeah... maybe we'll made this era end at 1654 AD then... thanks (I forgot about that)... but 12 turns per year x 143 years = 1716 turns !!!!???!!!???.... maybe we'll tone down to 6 turns per year and increasing movement point (but still wait for Sonic to agree with that - he's the one of the historical demartment who said about the ending at 1561)

So... that logo was the Amsterdam department then? :laugh4: Maybe I shall stick with their Plain coloured logo then... red white and blue, just as you suggested...

And Oh yeah Quirinus... you'll be at developing traits.... (still waiting Sonic to confirm, as he was the head historian afterall), and Proof Reading the Melayu naming of units.... :yes:

Quirinus

01-20-2010, 19:44

Yay... :2thumbsup:

Still avaliable for grammer proof-reader if still needed. My first language is english, so..

Cute Wolf

01-20-2010, 19:57

Yay... :2thumbsup:

Still avaliable for grammer proof-reader if still needed. My first language is english, so..

Ok! you are the Gramatical head now ! :thumbsup: I bet... 你是中国人！

Rahwana

01-21-2010, 02:23

And I wonder if someone should be the second "unit balancing" co leader... but he must have experience playing several mods and could compare them in terms of battle balance...

Anyone had a suggestion about Elephant and Chariot Pricing systems? The Melayu People will have Elephant bodyguards, named "Gajah Pengawal Raja" or something...

EDIT:
Oh yeah... and about faction Relationship at the start.....

Aceh
- Allied with: Palembang
- At War with : Portugal, Sriwijaya

Malaka
- Allied with: Bintara
- At War with : Portugal, Sriwijaya

Palembang
- Allied with: Bintara, Aceh
- At War with : Portugal, Sriwijaya

Sriwijaya
- Allied with: Pajajaran
- At War with : Aceh, Malaka, Palembang

Pajajaran
-Allied with: Sriwijaya
- At War with : Bintara, Majapahit

Bintara
- Allied with: Malaka
- At War with : Portugal, Pajajaran, Majapahit

Majapahit
- Allied with: -
- At War With : Pajajaran, Bintara

Portugal
- Allied with: -
- At War With : Aceh, Malaka, Palembang, Bintara

*. NOTE : Aceh and Malaka only allied at "much later" time... and actually at the very same time, they have a border skirmishes near Riau... but immediately ceased when Portugal invade

And we may use Skullheadhq's suggestion, put the end at Dutch-Portugese war conclusion (1654), rather than the expulsion of Portugal garrison at 1571... but if we use 12tpy is weirdly long...

Quirinus

01-21-2010, 05:43

Ok! you are the Gramatical head now ! :thumbsup: I bet... 你是中国人！
Yep, that's right. :yes:

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 14:15

4x143= 572 turns, also, you would want more provinces, way more provinces...

Here are some Dutch Names:

First Names:
Jan
Piet
Nicolaas
Jasper
Hermanus
Cornelis
Hendrick
Christiaen
Arend
Daniel
Isaac
Willem
Leopold
Johan
Peter
Gijsbert
Eduard
Pieter
Constantin
Dirck
Adriaen
Frederick
Reynier
Dircq
Zacharias
Maximiliaen

Surnames:
Corneliszoon
Heyn
Oldenbarnevelt
Coen
Brouwer
van Nijenrode
Pieterszoon
Koeckebakker
Hagenaer
van Santen
van Vrijbergh
Verstegen
Snoecq
van der Burgh
Wagenaer
van Lier
Volger
Gruijs
de Hartogh
Boockestijn
van der Waeijen
de Win
Balde
Boelen
Pieterszoon
Duurkoop
Nieman

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 14:33

More Provinces :inquisitive: my map was allready cramped with tons of cities.... :laugh4:... just wait me to finish off it....

Oh yeah.... at this campaign map.... we'll have NO WALLS.... except in some certain places allready had stone walls pre built, because Indonesians rarely built walled cities except fortress.....

Oh yeah, speaking about cities....

- Most cities will start as allready large or huge... and with no walls.... in game large cities are "Town" and Huge Cities are "City"..... well - well, thanks to the illogical system of 6000 men city, and 24000 men huge city (if we compare today, it was smaller than average village size in Java).... we decide to rename "population" in UI as "men" -> Able bodied men... and then give most of them allready large size and rather advanced development at the start...
- That cities is... Normal cities... you could built almost everything and train everything out, proveide they have its AOR and you have the required structures, but you can't built even the most filmsy wall on it, so everytime it goes to siege battle, you will be immediately attacked by the AI.....
- And Second concept of City.... FORTRESS!!! it was basically... the vanilla "Town - Large Town - Minor City" renamed "Small Fort - Fortress - Citadel" .... heck, almost all had pre built wall, and wall is upgradeable to stone there... but as you may aware, I put some heavy population penalty... so they won't exceed 6000 men (hopefully, except you have a such pop bomming govt and lower taxes)... they are represent no cities.. they only represent border military garrison, and hence, you CAN'T built trade structures there.... but in turns, they are easier to defend, and some are located in such important chokepoints... (Sunda Kelapa, Bedahulu, Tumasik, and several Fortified cities start as that...

Rahwana

01-21-2010, 15:05

@ Wolf & Skull, how about still sticking with our original plan of 12 tpy? afterall, I allready play the M2TW mod, long campaign, and must say that it gives certain depth to the campaign.... 2000 turns is just 2000 x 2 minutes per turn... in quick average all skimming and ordering campaign, it will take just 1 week to finish off your campaign if you manage to go to the end, and only doing some important battles... That's my suggestion. and to made the AI will sent important stacks, I've made up their unit price quite high... but their upkeep is just moderate, and we'll have 0 turn recruitment for most levies, 1 for european regulars, and 2 for elites, so it will be more on keeping most unit survive at the campaign, rather than pumping out the most units.... (unlike All unit-pumping championship we usually had at XGM, or insane micromanagement we had in EB)... and maybe I'll broaden the cost gap again between levies and regulars, (cheapening the levies), so you'll see historical stack made mostly of light archers and spearmen, with some occasional light swordsmen, and heavy infantry at only the most important armies...

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 15:11

Yeah, and maybe you should reduce archer's range too, because every Indonesian kingdoms at that era had an army full of archers, and with Javanese army... Horse archers... or maybe you should consider the 2 Hp system (and increasing melee lethality as well), so we'll have less archery casualities and everyone will have a chance to charge against rain of arrows?

Rahwana

01-21-2010, 15:19

Ewwwww....... :inquisitive:

You forgot that in real life, Javanese "Horse Archer" corps are more often fought dismounted... just ride to battle, dismount, and use their heavy war longbows to shoot enemies as their primary means of combat, they did carry shorter bows for horseback archery, but the evidence as well as Babad Tanah Jawi, said that they are usually fought dismounted.... except on some circumstances when they forced (!) to resort in mounted archery tactics, which most of them doesn't fare well (of course, Noble horse archers was exception, but then, I say about most of javanese Levy Horsemen)

But giving them accuracy penalty for missiles seem not too right.... :juggle2:

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 15:21

Kingdoms would give us the option to merge Spain and Portugal into the Iberian Union, or can this be scripted in BI, if we reserve a faction slot?
Also, this is a somewhat improved symbol for the Dutch:
https://img686.imageshack.us/img686/6084/vocx.jpg

Rahwana

01-21-2010, 15:23

Soory Skull... Merge what factions? AFAIK, we could only made emerging shadow faction in BI, and I tought about this with VOC become the shadow faction of Portugal as well, but then, some historical arguments is against that...

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 15:26

Hmm.... so you basically said that spamming archery and most of the death coming by archery is just historical way? how about 2Hp system then? at least it will give some a chance to charge down those archers by infantry...

Rahwana

01-21-2010, 15:33

Just be patient a bit wolf..... you know how cavalry charges was so ridiculously ineffective to break formations in 2Hp XGM battles? and with 2 Hp, we must reduce their armour values to get realistic battle pace?

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 15:35

Check this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Union)

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 15:38

Hoo... we don't include spain in this version of Nusantara Total War.... it was Portugese Invasion, and spain only arrive and at war with eastern fronts.... no, no spanish.... I'm sure of it...

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 15:41

But Portugal becomes the Iberian Union in 1580.
Also, more names:

Forenames:
Steven
Engelbert
Karel
Johannes
Christoffel
Adriaan
Jacob
Jan Willems'

Surnames:
van den Broecke
Bontekoe
Hamel
Kaempfer
Titsingh
van Riebeeck
Reynst
Reael
de Carpentier
van Diemen
van der Lijn
Reyniersz
Maetsuycker
van Goens
Speelman
Camphuys
van Outhoorn
van Hoorn
van Swol
Zwaardecroon
de Haan
Durven
van Cloon
Valckenier
Mossel
van Riemsdijk
de Klerk
van Overstraten
Siberg
Janssens
Mijer
Rooseboom
van Heutsz

Rahwana

01-21-2010, 15:47

It was another reason why I initially place the ending at the expulsion of last portugese garrison in Java, 1571... as it give full 60 years.... of campaigning... But then, it wasn't an important event back here, we are safe to assume Portugese army will still use their old portugese Symbols.

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 15:47

I don't know about that? maybe it was just the same way Romaioi annex Hellenic lands, but the EB team didn't force them to be united :grin:

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 15:52

So, you will use the Portugal symbols and banners from M2TW?

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 15:56

So, you will use the Portugal symbols and banners from M2TW?

Definitely... :laugh4::2thumbsup: afterall, that banner also depicted in museum too... and no one objects that

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 16:01

I think we've got enough Dutch names now, I'll now find out the ranks which the VoC had.
Maybe that could be used as ancillary (like the office mod) or traits (EB Senate offices).

OK, there were 17 men (Heeren XVII) who ruled the VoC, they were chosen by the VoC elite.
There was also a High Government (Hoge Regering) which was in Indonesia and was made of Governors (Gouverneurs) and 'residents' (Residenten), the High Government was led by a Governor-General (Gouverneur-Generaal), also caled toean besar . From 1610-1614 it was Pieter Both.
Found a list of 'em at wiki
https://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2769/governorgenerals.png

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 16:07

I think we've got enough Dutch names now, I'll now find out the ranks which the VoC had.
Maybe that could be used as ancillary (like the office mod) or traits (EB Senate offices).

No... unless VOC is playable, we doesn't need AI players get spoiled by ancillaries :laugh4: but VOC are spawn in "Slav Emerging" event... so they'll start out as a horde, and gradually receive reinforcements..... :laugh4:... as well as the Portugese when it was played by the AI :smash:

And about the office mod... personally I like them, but idea of managing office when you are supposed to take war on all fronts (as it historically happened) was a real turn-off

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 16:12

No... unless VOC is playable, we doesn't need AI players get spoiled by ancillaries :laugh4: but VOC are spawn in "Slav Emerging" event... so they'll start out as a horde, and gradually receive reinforcements..... :laugh4:... as well as the Portugese when it was played by the AI :smash:

And about the office mod... personally I like them, but idea of managing office when you are supposed to take war on all fronts (as it historically happened) was a real turn-off

Just to give additional command and influence.

Cute Wolf

01-21-2010, 16:14

Just to give additional command and influence.

Well, i bet we must wait our trait researchers to done it first ... :embarassed:

Skullheadhq

01-21-2010, 16:27

Anyway, got some translations to dutch to do for the unit names?

Cute Wolf

01-22-2010, 05:18

Wait for sonic finishing his job... he allready finished factional unit lists for Melayu factions, and European factions are close behind I think....

Skullheadhq

01-22-2010, 18:02

Also, we could use E:TW portraits (modified to make them fit, of course) for Europeans.

Skullheadhq

01-23-2010, 17:03

Also:
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8240/800pxflagofthedutcheast.png

Rahwana

01-24-2010, 03:31

Nice Flag... BTW, after checked about the 12 Tpy script and its ridiculously long campaign issue.... I think it was still a good thing.... this mod is for roleplay purpose, and if you run this mod long enough, then, you'll need a lot of patience... but well, the long campaign mod for M2TW still has their pros too

Rahwana

01-25-2010, 06:49

Hmm.... after thinking, and testing about modifying the EDB variables for adjusting the built time, maybe we could use your suggested ending time Skull, so, I now officially said that we will use 1654 AD as end date (yeah, 1571 was the last portugese garrison in Java... but 1654 was the last portugese garrison in western Indonesia... that concludes it, thank you very much)

==> BUT THAT MEANZ WE MUST ... add more European units then.... (and yes... according to my approximation, most Dutch (VOC) Units will share models with Portugal... but then it will be stored in EDU under different unit for naming's sake

Hmm... could you give the "translation" of their unit names in dutch? (I"m sure CW will contact some Portugese for naming afterwards) - and if Aventuros and Jinates are special units for Portugese, what special Dutch units did u suggest?
*) Oh yeah... did VOC generals prefer to fight on foot ot fight on horse?

1) Portugese Knights // Portugese Bodyguards
Pri Wp : Lance
Sec Wp : Longsword

2) Lancers
Pri Wp : Lance
Sec Wp : Longsword

3) Cuirassiers
Pri Wp : Longsword
Sec Wp : -

4) Jinetes
Pri Wp : Javelins
Sec Wp : Longsword

5) Colonial Pikemen // aka "horde" pikemen
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

6) Pikemen
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

7) Aventuros
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

8) Halberdiers
Pri Wp : Halberd (2hand spear anim)
Sec Wp : Halberd (2hand axe anim)

9) Swordsmen Militia // The European "basic" militia
Pri Wp : longsword
Sec Wp : -

10) Sword and Bucklermen // Superrior Swordsmen
Pri Wp : longsword
Sec Wp : -

11) Colonial Crossbows // aka "horde" crossbowmen
Pri Wp : Crossbow
Sec Wp : Shortsword

12) Crossbowmen
Pri Wp : Crossbow
Sec Wp : Shortsword

13) Arquebusiers // Line Gunners
Pri Wp : Arquebus
Sec Wp : Shortsword

14) Musketters // Elite "Skirmishers"
Pri Wp : Musket
Sec Wp : Shortsword

15) Sharpshooters // Long Range "Skirmishers"
Pri Wp : Musket
Sec Wp : Shortsword

G. Septimus

01-25-2010, 13:58

Phewwww
I'm so glad that I can at least see the .org again, after 2 WEEKS

Skullheadhq

01-25-2010, 14:24

*) Oh yeah... did VOC generals prefer to fight on foot ot fight on horse?

1) Portugese Knights // Portugese Bodyguards
Pri Wp : Lance
Sec Wp : Longsword

2) Lancers
Pri Wp : Lance
Sec Wp : Longsword

3) Cuirassiers
Pri Wp : Longsword
Sec Wp : -

4) Jinetes
Pri Wp : Javelins
Sec Wp : Longsword

5) Colonial Pikemen // aka "horde" pikemen
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

6) Pikemen
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

7) Aventuros
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

8) Halberdiers
Pri Wp : Halberd (2hand spear anim)
Sec Wp : Halberd (2hand axe anim)

9) Swordsmen Militia // The European "basic" militia
Pri Wp : longsword
Sec Wp : -

10) Sword and Bucklermen // Superrior Swordsmen
Pri Wp : longsword
Sec Wp : -

11) Colonial Crossbows // aka "horde" crossbowmen
Pri Wp : Crossbow
Sec Wp : Shortsword

12) Crossbowmen
Pri Wp : Crossbow
Sec Wp : Shortsword

13) Arquebusiers // Line Gunners
Pri Wp : Arquebus
Sec Wp : Shortsword

14) Musketters // Elite "Skirmishers"
Pri Wp : Musket
Sec Wp : Shortsword

15) Sharpshooters // Long Range "Skirmishers"
Pri Wp : Musket
Sec Wp : Shortsword

For VoC, we will need some new models.
Also, this is a dutch halbardier (Hellebaardier) armor from our time frame:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/gotscha/piekeniersharnas.jpg

And this are some re-enactors from het Legermuseum, they are completely historical accurate, notice the hat!
http://www.gotscha.nl/piekeman.jpg

Some generals, again notice the hat, this is very important:
http://home.kpn.nl/tette029/lucastettero1.jpg

Also, a musketeer, again the hat:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Aanwijzing_14_voor_het_hanteren_van_het_musket_-_V_lont_afneemt_(Jacob_de_Gheyn,_1607).jpg

Another great pic:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/De_overgave_van_breda_Velazquez.jpg

Also, dutch Pikemen (Piekeniers):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Pikeniere_kl.jpg

Also, generals would be mounted.
Also, the VoC should be spawned with an enormous fleet that can easily take over the seas and destroy all fleets, the sea AI is just perfect for VoC.

1) Portugese Knights // Portugese Bodyguards (Ridders/Lijfwachten)
Pri Wp : Lance
Sec Wp : Longsword

2) Lancers (Lansiers)
Pri Wp : Lance
Sec Wp : Longsword

3) Cuirassiers (Kurassiers)
Pri Wp : Longsword
Sec Wp : -

4) Jinetes (NOT USED BY DUTCH ARMY SO NO DUTCH NAME)
Pri Wp : Javelins
Sec Wp : Longsword

5) Colonial Pikemen // aka "horde" pikemen (Koloniale Piekeniers)
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

6) Pikemen (Piekeniers)
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

7) Aventuros (Piekeniers)
Pri Wp : Pike
Sec Wp : Shortsword

8) Halberdiers (Hellebaardiers)
Pri Wp : Halberd (2hand spear anim)
Sec Wp : Halberd (2hand axe anim)

9) Swordsmen Militia // The European "basic" militia (Voetvolk)
Pri Wp : longsword
Sec Wp : -

10) Sword and Bucklermen // Superrior Swordsmen (Zwaardvechters)
Pri Wp : longsword
Sec Wp : -

11) Colonial Crossbows // aka "horde" crossbowmen (Koloniale Kruisboogschutters)
Pri Wp : Crossbow
Sec Wp : Shortsword

12) Crossbowmen (Kruisboogschutters)
Pri Wp : Crossbow
Sec Wp : Shortsword

13) Arquebusiers // Line Gunners (Haakboogschutters)
Pri Wp : Arquebus
Sec Wp : Shortsword

14) Musketters // Elite "Skirmishers" (Musketiers)
Pri Wp : Musket
Sec Wp : Shortsword

15) Sharpshooters // Long Range "Skirmishers" (Musketiers)
Pri Wp : Musket
Sec Wp : Shortsword

I would also recommend a cannon unit (Kannoniers) for the dutch army.
Also, alot of dutch models should have the funny hat with sometimes a feather on it.

This was all for now.

Cute Wolf

01-26-2010, 01:46

Updated with "Hopefully final" Native faction Symbol...

Rahwana

01-26-2010, 04:08

Updated with "Hopefully final" Native faction Symbol...

Final if our ever meddling historical team from univ stop whinning.... (they doesn't see your symbol yet... maybe)

Cute Wolf

01-26-2010, 08:05

The Unit Concept by Artist : Cute Wolf....
--- Unit who share unit models aren't mentioned... it was just different skin

Serdadu Laot, Laskar Melayu, Kampak Laot, Laskar Tombak Panjang
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=273&pictureid=2119

Pedang Kauman, Tentara Serbu Malaka, Peusangan Askar, Milisi Melayu Dalam
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=273&pictureid=2120

plutoboyz

01-26-2010, 10:10

are you sure it was bamboo shield? Aren't bamboo will break if hitted from side?

Cute Wolf

01-26-2010, 10:13

are you sure it was bamboo shield? Aren't bamboo will break if hitted from side?

Look at their shield value then :)
And it wasn't just one layer of bamboo basketwork... it was multi layered, with rice straw for dissipating blows stuffed inside their layers... just like "triplek"

plutoboyz

01-26-2010, 10:16

Look at their shield value then :)
And it wasn't just one layer of bamboo basketwork... it was multi layered, with rice straw for dissipating blows stuffed inside their layers... just like "triplek"

ok then. :2thumbsup:

Rahwana

01-26-2010, 11:04

Hahaha.... you finally made it wolf :2thumbsup: -> Every unit pic he draw and present here means he drawn at least 2 previous pics that I (and my historical team) reject... :devil:

So it was allready verified historically... and the least verification is in-game aspects :beam:

Rahwana

01-27-2010, 05:43

Looks like we must announce our vacacy in modellers... no modellers? then....
Must we sent another vacancy announcement elswwhere? where?

Subotan

01-27-2010, 14:24

Where's your source for the map?

Cute Wolf

01-27-2010, 17:14

Where's your source for the map?

If you ask about the territories...
It was from Indonesian History books :beam:, but we did add their closely related "allied kingdoms" who at the start of date have a family relation with their larger kingdom (such as why the Sriwijayan get the Territory of Batak Kingdom of Pematang Purba - The King of Pematang Purba was married to a Sriwijayan Princess, and he was technically vassal to the Sriwijayan throne ; and why Aceh got Muslim area of West Sumatra as their starting territory, because historically, the ruling class on West Sumatra in that time was determined by Acehnese blessing..., and Nearly all Malaysian peninsulla is under Malaka Control Except Pattani...) This fact was somewhat adjusted by their way of history (such as never at war, even until 300 years they are still officially allied), and for anyone who pay close attention to the history, after the Sultanate of malaka fall... their descendants are move to Bentan and found a new sultanate of Melayu there... as that land was a loyal area.

But if you ask about the "Skewed-Fattened-and-WhattheHellAustraliadoingHere" blame CA for getting landmass ratio on their RTW-BI engine :laugh4:

Rahwana

01-27-2010, 17:34

But if you ask about the "Skewed-Fattened-and-WhattheHellAustraliadoingHere" blame CA for getting landmass ratio on their RTW-BI engine :laugh4:

And Don't forget... this is the first large campaign map Cute Wolf ever made :laugh4: so please forgive if he made somwthing ridiculous.... :clown: such as getting more landmass by adding north australia (but actually, in game terms, that Australian Territory will be the place of the "Dutch Horde" to be spawned, before they are teleported... (emerging faction in "Slav Emerge" event could be emerged only in map border territory, and guess, the internal name of VOC (Dutch) will be slav)

Skullheadhq

01-28-2010, 20:11

[QUOTE=Cute Wolf;2418049

European Horde Symbol = waiting for Skullheadhq[/QUOTE]

We could just use the normal symbols, amirite?

Subotan

01-28-2010, 21:17

Cute Wolf

01-29-2010, 06:37

I'm just wondering, as you're focusing on a very small part of SE Asia. There was great European involvement in the Moluccas (Hence, the "Spice Islands"; iirc, one of them was swapped for Manhattan! ). The Spanish nabbed the Phillipines, and the Chinese had susbtansial trading links. I've got an atlas at home with all this in, and I'll upload a pdf I have of it up for you (Don't ask where I got it from; but since I already own it, just treat it like I'm showing you :devilish:). Pages 64-65 and 118-119 will be the most useful for you.

http://rapidshare.com/files/342563125/Philip_s_Atlas_of_World_History__Concise_Edition_-__Malestrom_.pdf.html

Yeah, we know it, but we focusing on the very important trade route and military center at Sumatra, Jawa, and Malaysia... and we did plan to include the eastern isles... but

1) Everytime I create that map, a landmass ratio CTD occured if I made too large map (damn too much sea... you can look at our discussion at mod discussion before)... and if I made it working, that map will be ridiculously small.... If the M2TW could include multiple religion in one faction (means different FM has different religion), we will use M2TW....

2) The Eastern Islands has 4 Exspansionist empire at that time, the Sultanate of Sulu, Sultanate of Brunei, Kingdom of Gowa-Tallo, and Sultanate of Ternate. Yeah, they will add more factions to the play, but then, their areas are widely spaced by seas... (yeah, landmass CTD again)... and they had really few important cities (which means taking 4 or 5 cities and they're finished), while the western empires has so many urban centers... and would enggage in vicious siege against each other

Cute Wolf

02-06-2010, 18:23

Just create a new forum for better managing our mod (but currently we made this forum as a "really drunken" forum....)

http://nu3tara.forumotion.net

Don't get me wrong... as soon as sonic back to bandung and start compiling our progress, we'll create a special sections for our mod there :) If you are interested, just join... the membership is not only for game purpose, but on wider... *cough* funnier purpose :)

Rahwana

02-09-2010, 09:25

For some reason, the new forum still needs more members... to help us in administering the forum... well... can someone help with forum subtopics suggestions?

plutoboyz

02-09-2010, 09:45

For some reason, the new forum still needs more members... to help us in administering the forum... well... can someone help with forum subtopics suggestions?

one subforum for each faction?

Rahwana

02-19-2010, 04:44

hmm, our recent testing with 0,1, and multi recruitment turns finally forced the AI to use 0 turn unit spam (to emulate militia), so maybe we'll change our EDU plan and cost again...

0 recruitment units are tend to be really mass produced, if the price is cheap enough
1 recruitment unit are produced, but at slower rate...
2 turn or more units are rare enough to be a really prized units... but the AI have somewhat elephant fethism.... maybe we'll add more limit to the elephant recruitment regions now...

plutoboyz

02-19-2010, 11:46

Finally update!

hmm, our recent testing with 0,1, and multi recruitment turns finally forced the AI to use 0 turn unit spam (to emulate militia), so maybe we'll change our EDU plan and cost again...

0 recruitment units are tend to be really mass produced, if the price is cheap enough
1 recruitment unit are produced, but at slower rate...
2 turn or more units are rare enough to be a really prized units... but the AI have somewhat elephant fethism.... maybe we'll add more limit to the elephant recruitment regions now...

I think, its better more expensive than longer recruiting time.

...but the AI have somewhat elephant fethism.... maybe we'll add more limit to the elephant recruitment regions now...

NOOOO................!... bad news for Pajajaran

Cute Wolf

02-20-2010, 15:22

plutoboyz

02-20-2010, 17:53

Don't worry, Jawa has some recruitment places for elephants :grin:
- Ujung Kulon
- Majapahit
- Pajang
- Mataram
---- well, most west, central, south, and east Jawa will have elephant resources... quite a-biologic, but with planned 64 cities on Jawa

and if required, maybe the javanese hinterland (the central line of jawa) will have elephant recruitments too, as that was the natural range of (now only in Sumatera), Sumateran Elephants

DISASTER, :help:! as Pajajaran is more like Roman (focusing on well organized heavy infantry), it was disaster to them. I should focuses on Pajajaran Light infantry research.:book:

btw, how about the modeling? did the 3dsmax forum go well? so far I just mastered basic Skinning.

forum yang nusantara gimana tuh? kok yang ol aku doang?

Cute Wolf

02-21-2010, 11:06

Well, their militia are actually light infantry.. :grin:
Admin kan ngga keliatan kalo login :grin:

plutoboyz

02-21-2010, 15:45

Well, their militia are actually light infantry.. :grin:
Admin kan ngga keliatan kalo login :grin:

ok then.

yang laennya? kan bukan cuma admin? trus gak ada post baru lagi

Rahwana

02-22-2010, 09:12

Well, I allready made a lot of the mod concept, the final unit system (cutewolf will refine it soon), the historical research, and testing the balance system...

But now, I must withdraw myself from this mod, at least temporarily until Jul or August, as I must going to "employment practises lecture" (mata Kuliah Kerja Praktek), by going as physics (and maybe more) teacher at a highschool at mentawai. Well, actualy, that was a volunteer job because the lack of teacher there... well...

At least, next week, I will go with plane to padang, and then sail to the mentawai...

Cutewolf are allready know about this, and because of this, all the work of this mod are now all Cutewolf's authority...
I hope when I going back to Bandung, we allready had the firse relase of Nusantara : TW

Thank You very much!

Cute Wolf

03-09-2010, 11:30

Still waiting for my SEM results to be finished, and my catalysts sucessfully impregnated.... gosh... I miss sonic very much.... working alone is ridiculously difficult....

plutoboyz

03-09-2010, 13:15

Still waiting for my SEM results to be finished, and my catalysts sucessfully impregnated.... gosh... I miss sonic very much.... working alone is ridiculously difficult....

I'm stress at home, nothing to do. :2thumbsup: if you need help, just call me. maybe I could help.

Cute Wolf

04-01-2010, 05:07

will be very soon updated (my univ research is about to e finished)

Cute Wolf

04-09-2010, 18:39

and I've made the rough map... more regions will be added...
https://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7636/25737140835409780515010.jpg

jirisys

04-12-2010, 00:36

plutoboyz

04-12-2010, 04:24

Any way i can help? (skinning, grammar, maybe models, since i just got 3ds max (but don't know how to use it yet :shame:))

Edit: Where the hell on earth is that map based on???? (i know it's indonesia, but it doesn't look like it, maybe you can add more indochina, or less islands) :confused:

~Jirisys (yay! i'm helping!)

its western Indonesia. Sumatra, Java plus part of Malaysia. well cute wolf says sometihng about landmass ratio. that make we can't made accurate map.:shame:

actually on first proposal, Indochina is included, but its not part of Nusantara.

Cute Wolf

04-12-2010, 06:33

yeah, he's in.... maybe I should start uploading again the unit concept from now (both Finn Mac Cummhail and Jirisys are agreed to help.... well many many thanks).

Cute Wolf

04-12-2010, 09:06

Ok, so here's my first unit concept pics, we'll plan to use a model for several units (just change skins, as they are actually have only difference in armour and clothing detalis, but about a same sillouete (made an album in my TWC account, because the ORG album is somewhat confusing now)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=3369&pictureid=36317

their "hats" or destar, are actually like this in Real life... (the male one...)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_I98vmfXgPnM/S0y-vxKfk0I/AAAAAAAACgo/KzWFpuVXfkk/s800/Pakaian+Adat+Riau1.jpg

Up-Left : the Melayu Archer-spearmen unit, in this concept, he was a 2handed spearmen, with bamboo shield strapped in his left hand, carrying recurved (notice that pikkies bow are not recurved yet) bamboo bow, and his hat are wearing destar. He was wearing leather vest, and another version of him will be depicted with metal buckler instead of bamboo, and wearing chainmail.

Up-Right : the Melayu Shortswordsmen, in this unit concept, he was a shortswordsmen, carrying simple "pedang" swords, about 60 cm long, and had large round shield (depicted as bamboo, but I will use the same model as heavier swordsmen model with wooden shield instead of bamboo), in the pics he was unarmoured, but another version of him will be wearing quilted leather-mail armour, and another was chainmail.

Down-Left : the Melayu-Sriwijayan Axemen, in this unit concept, he was the elite mariners of Melayu, wearing heavy leather armour, carrying an axe (indonesian war axes have spear tip, notice that), carrying some javelins, and wooden round shield. Another version of him will worn lighter leather armour, and another were unarmoured, bare chested warriors, with wooden shields.

Down-Right: the Melayu Pikemen, carrying a pike (actually will have phalanx formation in game, so you just need some long pointy sticks), and a pedang shortsword (the same with shortswordsmen model), he was wearing mail shirt.

more will be uploaded soon (after I draw trace them from historical books at my Univ's library....

Finn MacCumhail

04-12-2010, 13:41

OK.
And may be we should discuss modeling in the special forum, link to that I have found somewhere here, making own thread to concepts, modeling and so on, coz it is veeery uncomfortable to discuss everything in the one thread.
I hope there would be no copyright abuse using BI models?

plutoboyz

04-12-2010, 14:14

Finn MacCumhail

04-12-2010, 14:32

Please explain me someone how to work with alpha layer, coz it doesn't work here. :-(

Draft version

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/draftspearman.jpg

Cute Wolf

04-12-2010, 18:05

Looks good.. :thumbsup: keep up....

*. maybe you should tone the skin more "browny"... and don't forget to form his headgear properly :wink:

jirisys

04-12-2010, 21:03

Please explain me someone how to work with alpha layer, coz it doesn't work here. :-(

Draft version

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/draftspearman.jpg

Send me the texture file and i'll help you with the alpha layer (download DXTBmp, for advanced use of alpha layers (and to edit FSX texures :tongue:))

Edit: Can you calculate the landmass ratio (see the no. of pixels of the total map (the minimap) and the land ones, and operate total/land = landmass% (or ratio:1))

~Jirisys (flaming, due to excess alpha layer)

Cute Wolf

04-13-2010, 07:15

I don't know for sure about numerical landmass ratio on my map, as far as I know, when I try to made the map 2 pixel bigger, or drop more inaccesible terrain on there, there goes the CTD...

Of course, I've allready put all the forest on Australia for stashing purpose, and when all is ready, I'll distribute the trees....

And don't ask what the hell is Australia doing there, that was the Anti-CTD region (s)

Finn MacCumhail

04-13-2010, 10:10

Smth weird with alpha, coz even not every textures from BI or RTW works properly in Max.

Check this Portugal invader (of course still work in progress) Made by myself :shy:

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/portug01.jpg
Edit
On the right the same model but with mesh smooth

PS
Cute Wolf, or Sonic, please make Modeling and Concept Units threads in Nu3tara forum. It would more convenient. I will dl everyting there.

plutoboyz

04-13-2010, 10:19

that looks nice. Good work.

Cute Wolf

04-13-2010, 16:04

good, just change his weapons from pike and sword, to musket, crossbow, and give him shield and sword, we allready have models for pikemen, swordsmen, crossbowmen, and musketters. And if we put skin with lighter armour, there goes the colonial (horde) pikemen and colonial crosbowmen...

So 6 units are basically on the completion :thumbsup:

And I should inform the map progress here, I;ve completed the west java regions except banten...
https://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/Oalahsonson/nustwpimap130410.jpg

plutoboyz

04-13-2010, 16:53

some correction:

Galuh=Kawali.
Tarum= ? do you mean Sundapura or Tangaram? former Tarumanagara capital. its located about there.
Majalengka=Rajagaluh. Majalengka is today name.

Suggestion:
and make Cirebon rebel city. because its stop sending Seba since 1404 Saka. about 15th century.

jirisys

04-13-2010, 21:06

Finn, send me the file you need help with the alpha layer

~Jirisys (alpha... that's funny)

Cute Wolf

04-14-2010, 05:35

@ Finn, yeah... just made that thread... (Btw, forumotion can't be opened when I was on the university network... so please be patient until I back home :grin:)

plutoboyz

04-14-2010, 06:05

(Btw, forumotion can't be opened when I was on the university network... so please be patient until I back home :grin:)

Penjaga Cumi?

Cute Wolf

04-14-2010, 06:12

Yoi.... (btw, udah gw bobol barusan :)) ) -> tau aja... nama penjagacumi ITB terkenal banget yah...

Nyz

04-15-2010, 11:22

Salam tuan-tuan semua,

I have a few peaceful caklempong and gamelan songs (that can be used for stratmap) and energetic serunai songs (can be used for battle / mobilization). Can I contribute some?

plutoboyz

04-15-2010, 11:45

Salam tuan-tuan semua,

I have a few peaceful caklempong and gamelan songs (that can be used for stratmap) and energetic serunai songs (can be used for battle / mobilization). Can I contribute some?

I'm not sure it will be used for nusantara tw. but please share it to me. I need it for my homework assigment.:clown:

Cute Wolf

04-15-2010, 12:43

yeah, sure, just post their download link, and we'll consider it...
actually sounds wasn't considered in our first relase, but we did plan sound effects and in depth campaign immersion to be improved after we finished the first relase

Cute Wolf

04-15-2010, 12:44

oops, double post

plutoboyz

04-15-2010, 13:28

yeah good! I have some nice music.

Bubuka Gajah Putih Ngalng Jagat. good for battle music.
http://www.ziddu.com/download/9459205/BubukaGajahPutihNgalangJagat.mp3.html
and this one Kacapi and Tarawangsa.
http://www.ziddu.com/download/9459206/04-KidungKacapiTarawangsa.mp3.html

plutoboyz

04-15-2010, 14:49

just found nice music for european.
http://www.ziddu.com/download/9460200/01LaQuarteEstampieReal.wma.html

Nyz

04-15-2010, 20:05

These are the links for Gamelan songs. These songs are used mainly in graduation ceremony and convocation in universities in Malaysia

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9460282/01TIMANGBURUNG.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9460414/02TOGOK.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9460638/03PERANGMANGGUNG.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9460772/04ANTAWADA.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9461140/05TOPENG.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9461291/06LAMBANGSARI.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9461472/07SELANTING.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9461587/08AyakAyak.mp3.html

And these are the links for Serunai songs and used mainly during Silat performance.

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9461673/MuzikTradisional-Silat1.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9461847/MuzikTradisional-Silat2.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9463244/GendangSerunaiSilat-04-GendangPetani.mp3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9463355/GendangSerunaiSilat-05-GendangSilatKedah.mp3.html

I'll put the links for a few Telempong / Caklempong songs after finish upload them at Ziddu.

Nyz

04-16-2010, 11:06

And these are the links for Telempong / caklempong songs and used mainly during Malay wedding ceremony especially at the area of Minangkabau settlers (Negeri Sembilan and upper Selangor).

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9463747/Aladom.MP3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9463795/BugihLamo.MP3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9463894/CakTunTunUpgrade.MP3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9463956/Kelok9.MP3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9464008/MudikArau.MP3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9464050/PerahuLayar.MP3.html

http://www.ziddu.com/download/9464072/Sakinah.MP3.html

Nyz

04-18-2010, 05:17

Salam tuan-tuan semua,

I suggested some revision of a few unit names (if it can be changed) based on Hikayat Hang Tuah.

a) Milisi - I think this is not Malay word, it is a loanword from English Militia, while in Hikayat Hang Tuah the word used for unamoured /untrained unit is Penjurit or prajurit

"Maka sembah Tun Tuah, "Daulat Tuanku, tiada berguna pegawai sekalian; janganlah berperang bermati-mati, sekadar menaiki kuda ini lagi tiada mau. Sia-sialah menjadi pegawai; layaknya menjadi Penjurit berjalan malam mengambil harta orang dan membunuh orang juga.”

In this dialogue, Tun Tuah was condemning the officers (pegawai) because of the inability to handle a horse, and their status were same as militia or guerilla (penjurit).

Hikayat Hang Tuah told a few cases that the penjurit run amuck killing people, stealing and robbing, in this dialogue, Tun Tuah referring penjurit as berjalan malam (walking at night), mengambil harta orang (stealing and robbing) and membunuh orang (killing people).

b) Milisi Panah Melayu – just named it Pemanah or Pemanah Melayu

c) Tentera serbu Melaka – no such thing as tentera serbu, change it to pasukan penggempur / tentera penggempur / pasukan tempur (shock trooper)

d) Melayu Dalam – just named it Orang Pedalaman / Orang Melayu Pedalaman / Orang Gunung (mountain people), or Orang Hulu / Orang Ulu (upper river people)

e) Malay regular Infantry – regular infantry were addressed as Hulubalang in hikayat Hang Tuah

f) Bodyguard of Mentri (Minister) - were addressed as Pegawai dan Pertuanan in Hikayat Hang Tuah, some of them were riding horses, some of them walking

“Maka Temenggung dan patih naik kuda. Maka segala pegawai yang banyak itu ada yang naik kuda, ada yang berjalan di tanah mengiringkan.”

“Maka Bendahara dan Temenggung pun menyembah lalu keluar diiringkan oleh segala pegawai dan pertuanan”

plutoboyz

04-18-2010, 05:55

correct me if I wrong, Laskar also mean Prajurit, right?

Nyz

04-18-2010, 11:50

I am not sure about that....have to check KAMUS DEWAN....but I know that Laskar and Askar (loanword from Arab) come from Persian word "Lashkar"... in Hikayat Hang Tuah and Sejarah Melayu, the word that used for unit were: Penjurit (I think for militia); Hulubalang (I think for regular infantry); Pegawai dan Pertuanan (always used for Mentri bodyguard, some using horse, some not); Bentara (special bodyguard, in hikayat Hang Tuah, Hang Tuah and 5 of his siblings were appointed firstly as Penghulu bodyguard, than Bendahara bodyguard, after that as Bentara [the court bodyguard], than appointed as Laksamana [Melaka envoys]); Kesatria (special for Benua Keling [India] knight; and gajah kenaikan (Melaka Sultan and Raja Muda riding elephant)......the word Seridadu / serdadu (soldadu) also mentioned, but came with / after Portuguese invasion, maybe the loanword from Portuguese, (ie: Soldier).

I also encountered with the word pahlawan and pendekar , like the sentences "pendekar yang memegang pedang bertelanjang (no scabbard)..."but not sure about their ranking...

Hikayat Hang Tuah also mention the about aborigines people from scattered small island...They were called as Sakai and their elder as Batin....using Sumpit (blowpipe) and Damak (dart)...

But I not encounter with the word Laskar / askar from my reading....

Cute Wolf

04-18-2010, 17:04

laskar means that they are "pseudo-arabic" troopers, because as far as Sonic tells me, both Aceh, and melayu Sultanates modelled their army after Ottoman ones...

And our Melayu historian said that they don't have anything to replace the word "milisi" because "penjurit" is allready have conotation for middle-rank soldiers... so they said we may use the loaned words....

BTW, we'll consider that after I can establish some contact and discuss that with sonic...

Nyz

04-18-2010, 20:41

hmm I think it's better to use loanword from Arab "Wataniah" (army raised during emergency) than the loan word from Europe Language..... if you are going to use loanword.... even the word milisi is not used in Malaysia. In Malaysia the word is "militan".

Rahwana

04-19-2010, 10:30

my malaysian friends are actually said that I should search the word from indonesia-malaysia common words.... but I admit that was because of overseeing or somewhat....
Cute Wolf should allready sent you a message. :bow:

G. Septimus

04-20-2010, 00:59

Am I still in this?
or, just a Public Relations OP

Nyz

04-20-2010, 03:37

I have found 2 more units that have been used in Melaka from Hikayat Hang Tuah:

a) Pengawal (Townwatch): Working directly under Temenggung (equivalent to Malaysian nowadays Inspector-General of Police), raised when cases of stealing emerged. Equipped with kayu (woods), lembing (spear) and perisai (shield) maybe low quality

b) Pertikaman: Working directly under Laksamana (Malacca Envoy). Equipped with tombak (pike), and get "musara" (gaji / salaries).

I am not really sure that these 2 units are appropriate to which-one that were listed before....

Cute Wolf

04-20-2010, 10:14

wea llready got both of that unit in our lastest lists... but under the name of Malayan-Sriwijayan pikemen (both employed melayu pikemen), and city militia... (but the later is equipped with bows).... I think hikayat melayu told that city guards (pengawal kota), were equipped with bows and swords, and placed on the lookout of the city (language?)

Nyz

04-20-2010, 13:01

I think the attribute of Pengawal is equivalent to Melayu Militia. But nowadays the connotation of Pengawal is associated with someone with regularly paid salaries... I think better to change it to Orang Berkawal (Watchmen).

"Maka baginda pun bertitah kepada Temenggung, "Hai Temenggung, suruh orang berkawal dan segala saudagar berkawal pada kampungnya."

"Setelah hari malam maka Kertala Sari pun masuklah ke dalam kota. Maka didengarnya bunyi orang berkawal dan bunyi perisai lembing gemerentak."

The Pengawal Kota is OK. It is logic that the City Guards equipped with bow and guarded the lookout (menara peninjau / pondok kawalan).

Actually I am trying to find the equivalent unit name in history... to the modern ears, the words sometimes weird..... like Pertikaman.... from the word tikam (stab)...... modern Malay is not using this word anymore...but that was written in Hikayat Hang Tuah..

Find the equivalent unit name in history is much harder than make direct translation... If I cannot find the word in literature, direct translation maybe the solution...

hmmm can you tell me what is the different from sword, longsword or short sword? Is the short sword same as keris? or parang? I know "pedang" but in Hikayat Hang Tuah, the user of "pedang" is called Pendekar while the Melaka Court Royal Guard (Bentara) used keris panjang

The usage of "pedang" is rarely in Malay culture.... parang, golok and keris are more used.

Cute Wolf

04-21-2010, 04:51

that was parang, (mungkin kita lebih baik bicara dicampur campur sedikit, karena parang, pedang, dan keris panjang semuanya bisa dibilang sebagai "sword".... bahasa inggris kurang kosakata :wink:)

hmm... but what about the acehnese sword "pedeung"? it was definitely a one bladed cutlass (sometimes the back blade was sharpened in half too) with 60-75 cm blade... and that was descended from ancient malayan weapon.

And the unit name "Pendekar" was allready used in their javanese spelling as the unit "Pandekar", armed with two handed swords, signature of the advanturer warrior class that time.

Nyz

04-21-2010, 15:40

I have 2 questions:

a) Why you all use Malaka instead of Melaka?
b) Could you make clarification to me what is short sword, sword and long sword?

Pedang

Usage of Pedang is rarely in Malay culture. Malay warriors were master of close combat. So usually they created the weapon suitable for close combat, ie have relatively short hilt and blade, ranged from the longest (keris panjang > parang / golok > keris biasa > belati > kerambit > lawi ayam (smaller than dagger, sometimes cannot be seen by other when held in the fist)

In Sejarah Melayu, pedang was used as the protocol symbol / symbol of grandeur / symbol of sovereignty in the Court. “Pedang Kerajaan” was hold by Seri Amerta (protocol officer) in Melaka Court, as well as the scepter (ornamental rod carried by monarchs as symbol of sovereignty: cogan alam).

Peudeung

For Peudeung, I am not sure if it was descended from ancient Malay weapon. In Sejarah Melayu, there were written that Wan Empuk dan Wan Malini encountered with 3 foreign princes, wearing beautiful clothes, and holding Curik (an ancient weapon), Kayu Bercap (maybe staff?), Pedang (sword) and lembing (spear).

They asked, “Who are you?” and the princes answered “we are the descendant of Iskandar Zulkarnain [from Makaduniah] (Alexander the Great from Macedonia)…… Malay legend also wants to associate the Malay King with Alexander :laugh4:

This happen at Bukit Seguntang long long before Parameswara founded Melaka…Maybe this is the explanation of the ancient weapon…

For Acheh, they maybe used peudeung extensively, because the peudeung symbol appeared on their flag, and they named their flag Alam Peudeung.

Pendekar

For Pendekar, Hikayat Hang Tuah associated pendekar with the usage of Pedang. So for the Malay unit that used pedang, like Half-Arab swordmen, I suggest that unit can be translated as Pendekar Syamsir (scimitar in Kamus Dewan and Hikayat Hang Tuah is syamsir) or to make it more Persian / Arabic sound, we can used “Pahlawan Syamsir” because the word Pahlawan derived from Persia.

For Malay unit that not used pedang, the word pendekar maybe is not going to be used, and for that purpose, I want to get clarification that which unit use pedang, which unit use parang....

plutoboyz

04-21-2010, 16:09

a) Why you all use Malaka instead of Melaka?
I've been wondering same question. its called Malaka here.

Cute Wolf

04-21-2010, 16:34

Actually that was Sonic's work (blaming the poor Sonic) :clown:

And the Half-Arab swordsmen thingies is a unit that all the initially Muslim factions will share, as they are called "bala kauman" in Babad Tanah Jawi, and I (no that was specifically my suggestion actually) throw the word "Laskar" at that place.... :shame:

Yeah, Aceh and Malaka (and to lesser extent Palembang and Sriwijayan dynasty) will share much of their units, since they are belongs to "melayu sucessor kingdoms" group. And while you maybe ask for Laskar Melayu (the cheap shortswordsmen unit, actually, they are extensively used in Northern part of Sumatera, and the Islands), they will use golok as their weapon. And while your comment actually give me some insight why Sonic get the unit of "Malakan Royal Swordsmen", I'm not sure on your arguments that "swords" are rare weaponary that time, as golok was widely available in common households that time.

Oh yeah, sonic just contacted me, and he said that he get some citation from "hikayat Melayu(?)" and "sejarah Makuta Alam(?)" to prove that "parang" are very common weapon that time... *looking for his archieve that was left here in bandung*

plutoboyz

04-21-2010, 16:39

if I recall correctly, parang was popular but in kalimantan part of malaysia. it was originally a Dyak weapon.

Cute Wolf

04-21-2010, 16:45

pretty much, but we don't have kalimantan on the map.....

and while the very same weapon was called mandau in Kalimantan, Javanese, Sundanese, and pretty much everyone allready had their own parang...

Nyz

04-21-2010, 17:11

a) Malaka or Melaka?

So, We used Malaka or Melaka?

b) Half-Arab Swordmen

Oh I see, if there was a historical name for the unit, just use and retain it. "Bala" is common word in Malay, mean "Tentera" (loanword from Sanskrit, the word appear in Srivijayan Inscription of Kedukan Bukit), but kauman in Kamus Dewan mean "community".... :confused:

c) Laskar

There are Lasykar word in Hikayat Hang Tuah (at glossary) . But until now not encountered with it...still searching :book::computer: :huh:. Not sure which unit used laskar.

d) Malakan Royal Swordsmen

In Hikayat Hang Tuah, the Court Bodyguard was called Bentara. But they used Keris Panjang. There were 2 types of bodyguard, the royal bodyguard (Bentara) and the noble bodyguard (Pegawai dan Pertuanan).

e) Parang

Malay called it parang and it's common in our kitchen and garden......:laugh4: Golok also common Malay word....

plutoboyz

04-21-2010, 17:21

I think Melaka better. Kesultanan Melayu Melaka.

Cute Wolf

04-22-2010, 03:52

yeah, maybe we should change their name too... *kicking sonic's butt for that mistake*

Cute Wolf

04-22-2010, 12:42

And, thanks for the critical correction you've made Intifadanyz.......

could you help me with the city list on the Melakan Peninsulla then? I've made the map, but this is still WIP
here's the lastest of my work, and I decide to retexture the map...
https://j.imagehost.org/0022/0004.jpg

what is your opinion about the textures? should we get back to standard RTW one? or this one (modified a bit M2 texture)

plutoboyz

04-22-2010, 14:06

this better

Nyz

04-23-2010, 00:29

Wah!!! Cantiknya peta!!!

hmmm, are you going to use dual colour for faction? I think single colour like EB is prettier.

Anyway, this is the list:

Cities list in Peninsular Malaysia

1. Johor Mainland

a) Johor Lama: start as just a fishing village at Johor River bank, then became capital for Johor-Riau-Lingga Sultanate in the reign of the first Johor Sultan, Sultan Alauddin Riayat Shah. She became a base for launching attack on Portuguese at Melaka.
b) Batu Sawar
c) Pagoh
d) Muar

2. Island at South of Johor

a) Singapura (you named it Tumasik, don’t you? I am not sure, but in Sejarah Melayu it was called Temasik (not Tumasik) at the reign of Parameswara in Melaka, but in the reign of Sultan Mahmud Syah (last Sultan of Melaka), it was already called Singapura.
b) Bentan
c) Riau
d) Lingga

3. Melaka

a) Melaka itself !!!! :yes:
b) Bertam (at Ulu Melaka / Melaka inland)

4. Negeri Sembilan

a) Sungai Ujong

5. Selangor

a) Klang (stated in Sejarah Melayu as vassal of Melaka)
b) Bernam / Sabak Bernam

6. Perak

a) Bruas (stated in Sejarah Melayu as vassal of Melaka, formerly as capital of ancient Hindu-Buddha kingdom of Gangga Negara)
b) Tanah Abang (first capital of successor Melaka Sultanate of Perak)
c) Relap Hati (at Hulu Perak/ Perak inland)

7. Kedah

a) Kota Seputeh
b) Baling
c) Langkawi (stated in Sejarah Melayu)

8. Kelantan

a) Chinta Wangsa (at Ulu Kelantan / Kelantan Inland)
b) Jembal (at Hilir Kelantan / Lower Kelantan)
c) Kota Mahligai (at Bachok, as former capital of Patani Kingdom)

9. Terengganu

a) Kuala Terengganu
b) Kuala Berang (at Terengganu Inland / Hulu Terengganu)

10. Pahang

a) Pekan (at Kuala pahang / Lower Pahang)
b) Ulu Tembeling (at Pahang inland)

11. Patani

a) Senggora (stated in Sejarah Melayu)
b) Beredung Budi (at Hulu Patani / Patani inland)
c) Grisek

I think this is the cities list in peninsular Malaysia. I’ll update it if I have more infos.

wlesmana

04-23-2010, 02:40

Cute Wolf

04-23-2010, 03:35

@intifadanyz :
The faction we made will be the representation of 7 dominant royal family and their allied families in this period (even when their "kingdom" at the starting date will be soon to be destroyed... or at most history books, they are considered allready non existant (such as the inclusion of Buddhist Sriwijayan lineage, actually they officially called the alliance kingdom of Jambi with kingdom of Pematang Purba here, but they still called themself Sriwijaya, and using Sriwijayan symbols, the same goes to Majapahit, as theiy are actually representing the Blambangan and Balinese Sucessor kingdoms, that was still called themself "wong Majapahit".) the Royal family actually just made another kingdoms, or move to somewhere else) the map faction colours is still using default BI factions for map-making purpose, you could see that Berbers will turn into Melaka, Sassanids will turn into Aceh, Franks will turn into Sriwijaya, Saxons will turn into Palembang, Vandals will turn into Pajajaran, Huns will turn into Majapahit, and Bintara are not yet made their regions, due to CTD when I try to made Muria Straits (DARRRNNNNN LANDMASS RATIO!!!! actually the muria peninsulla at that time was Muria island, separated by a small strait). BTW, we'll almost certain to use one colour faction, except for Portugese and VOC (so they'll have better mark)

@ Wlesmana
Maybe I'll post that as soon as I've going back to my kost (berapa hari ini di lab terus, ngerjain TA... hehehehe)

Nyz

04-23-2010, 07:58

En. Cute Wolf:

a) Faction represent royal family

Hmm I already noticed and very very understand because you all have stated that in your previous posts in this forum and elsewhere, and I have no complain about that. Although in history, when the last Sultan of Melaka pass away, his 2 sons founded 2 separated successor kingdoms of Johor and Perak, in this game, it will not separate and still be named Melaka. Even in this game, if the kingdom of Melaka reduced and only own Patani, it still called Melaka....:laugh4:

b) Faction colour

It is up to you to use what colour for what faction. It is your full authorization...

c) City list

How about the city list? It is too much? I know about the maximum region limit in RTW... If you think it is too much, we can discuss and use only the very very important cities... Some of the cities were stated in Sejarah Melayu and Hikayat Hang Tuah, some of them stated in Hikayat Merong Mahawangsa (especially the cities in Kedah and Kelantan), some of them existed as big cities during the Kingdom of Srivijaya (the real Srivijaya of course, not Srivijaya represent in this game :laugh4:), some of them started as fishing villages, then only became important after the foundation of Perak and Johor...

Anyway, there were many settlement recorded in history, some of them were villages, some were cities and some were only defensive forts... especially in Johor, along the river bank of Sungai Johor... All the settlements there ever became Johor capital because the capital have been moved many times because of Portuguese attack...

Kingdom of Perak also have may capitals along Perak River because they moved their capital regularly (actually not they... it is our capital...because I am from Perak and Perak is my hometown :laugh4:)

At that time, at Kelantan, there were many small small kingdoms with their own capital, and their kingdoms was no larger than a Kabupaten...

by the way, the city numbers in peninsular Malaysia represented how populated the region are at that time, comparable to the Java and Sumatera...

Bla bla bla...anyway, just ignore my babbling....:laugh4:

PS: En. Cute Wolf...buat apa di LAB? saya di LAB mengkulturkan sel....
PS: En. Plutoboyz...cantik sekali model konsepnya di forumation

Wah Wah hebatnya gunungnya ada salji :laugh4:

plutoboyz

04-23-2010, 08:12

Guys, can you post pictures of weapon references so I can start modeling them. Seems like there's still a lot of debate to be done about the soldier models so weapon models are easier and more precise. The only reason I modeled the Melayu Militia so early is because they look like stereo-typical Maduran satay vendors so easy to imagine what they should look like.

I have started a thread at forumotion. its also include unit concept

http://nu3tara.forumotion.net/the-development-section-f9/unit-pictorial-reference-t23.htm

Nyz

04-25-2010, 01:56

jirisys

04-25-2010, 04:08

I have some questions:

a) What is / are the different (s) between spear and pike? I am confuse.... In Malay text there were mention about tombak and lembing, I am not sure which one is spear, which one is pike.... I know about javelin... in Malay text it was called Seligi. (Seligi is a classic word, the modern for javelin is Tempuling).

b) What is "2 handed"? Is it mean one weapon held by both hands? or 2 weapons held by each hand?

c) Were Malay and Acheh people names have been post elsewhere?

a) a pike is a an extremely long weapon, varying considerably in size, from 3 to 6 metres (10 to over 20 feet) long. It had a wooden shaft with an iron or steel spearhead affixed.

a spear a pole weapon consisting of a shaft, usually of wood, with a sharpened head. The head may be simply the sharpened end of the shaft itself, as is the case with bamboo spears, or it may be of another material fastened to the shaft, such as obsidian, iron or bronze. The most common design is of a metal spearhead, shaped like a triangle or a leaf. A spear's lenght is usually from 3 up to 8 feet (if used overarm) and to 16 feet (if used underarm)

b) Two handed means it's a weapon you need to use with both hands, a double wielding soldier is a troop with a weapon in each hand

c) i don't know

~Jirisys (they're two handed phalanxes... WHAT! THEY HAVE A SPEAR IN EACH HAND!!!:clown:)

plutoboyz

04-25-2010, 04:16

Nyz

04-25-2010, 04:31

Thanks...

That's make a clear explanation and helping me matching the unit name with the one stated in Malay text....

In Hikayat Hang Tuah the one that throwed is seligi

"Maka kata Hang Jebat sambil menangkiskan seligi (javelin) dan anak damak (dart) seperti hujan datangnya....

It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....

From my understanding, lembing is the one that thrown.

Hmmm. what about lance?

Kepada Jirisys: Hampeh mangkuk ayun ni kata kat aku.......

Cute Wolf

04-25-2010, 14:22

note : I just put in your input for the unit name, and made several changes to Melayu culture Infantry and cav units so please do some checking there :beam:

Melayu Watchmen (spears) = Orang Berkawal
Melayu City Guards (archer-shortswords) = Pengawal Kota
Acehnese Swordsmen (swords) = Laskar Aceh
Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-shortswords) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
Acehnese Heavy Infantry (shortswords) = Serdadu Pedeung
Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
Half-Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
Acehnese Honorary Guards (javelin-axes) = Sahabat Istana

Melayu Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces)
Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords)
Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces)
Melayu-Sriwj Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin)
Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers)
Melayu Iron-Clad War Elephants (elephant-javelin)

Note that some of them are shared units with South Sumateran Culture... I allready do the rebalancing by doing the equation again...

plutoboyz

04-25-2010, 14:34

It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....

you know, sometimes in reality. soldier throw their spears. just to kill enemy instantly.

Nyz

04-25-2010, 17:47

Cute Wolf

04-25-2010, 18:40

Thanks Mr. Cute Wolf. Here my suggestion:

a) Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
is the usage of the word penjurit here parallel with the units that used word prajurit in Jawa and Pajajaran? If it’s parallel, than ok, we have some connection here…

true, so they are verivied

b) Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu shock trooper used double sword, how about change it to Pendekar?

Pendekar, or more rightly "Pandekar" is allready taken by Javanese commoner knights... I remember to read about them, prisoners, former pirates and convicts, that volunteered to fight in the shock troops as a pardon (pangampunan) to their past crimes, mentioned in acehnese articles, but they also mention that Malaysian sultanates also have this kind of pardon system... so I guess they are common shock troops employed that time... (two handed sword is probably only our (sonic and me) interpretation, since it was hard to think you are only given one sword and must go charge the enemy line without a shield or any kind of protection (they said about only wearing simple clothes), and another sentences mentioned that their hands are full of blood (indirectly means that they use both hands to swing different swords - as in Acehnese soldiery, great two handed sword (peusangan) are reserved only for military cadets, and not criminals).

c) Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
Hulubalang

d) Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
Well, Pengawitan is the name for Melakan infantry equipped with special spear stated in hikayat Hang Tuah. (tombak pengawitan bersampak emas)...

And in this matter, I must say that I'll stick with tentara anyway, because that was how the Sumateran sea warriors are described. And with Halberdiers, maybe I'll use Pangawitan, as you suggested... :beam:

e) Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
You said that in Babad Tanah Jawi, it was called Bala Kauman?

The Bala Kauman... was the Half arab swordsmen, they are quite different unit since they are only wearing a swords, the "Ottoman Elite Infantry" are Aceh and Melayu's immitation for Ottoman Janissary... and I think that should be that way.... and because "Kauman means another thing" I'll use Arab instead...

f) Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
The word serdadu have connotation with Portuguese and scimitars were the influence from middle-east....maybe just used Pemanah or Laskar Pemanah, because the usage of scimitars here.

Thanks... verivied

g) Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
I am not sure, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were stated the word perapit, and in other chapter, penjajap

So we'll stick to the Hulubalang then... :wink:

h) Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
Bentara

i) Aiyyah…..so many elephant….Anyway, for the elephant, I think only Melakan Sultan and faction heir and sometimes others royal family members (not all) used elephant, that was: Melayu Royal War Elephants and it was called Gajah Kenaikan.

Verivied :beam:

Some of the royal members used horse, while the others used Palanquin.ie Paduka Tuan (Melakan Bendahara during reign of Sultan Mahmud Syah) fight Portuguese on the Palanquin, also Sultan Mahmad Syah II (last Johore Sultan from Melakan Sultan lineage) also has been kill on Palanquin. I don't think the commoners used elephant.

j) Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) - Pegawai dan Pertuanan. I think this unit can be made as recruitable general unit

k) For Acheh, the nobles were called Ulèë Balang. Which unit suited them? Acheh Royal Horsemen or Acehnese Honorary Guards?

Too bad, the engines can't help in multiple bodyguard units... Maybe for that reason, I'll made recruitable bodyguards on cavalry available... but the default BG unit will be the Elephants....
The noble cavalry will have their BG version maybe....

and acehnese Honorary guards will go as "Sahabat Istana" , because Ulee Balang represent broader nobility, and those "Sahabat Istana" are actually palace guardsmen....

Oh yeah, I forgot to include those unit:
- Peusangan Askar / Acehnese Cadet Shock Troopers (wielding large two handed sword)

plutoboyz

04-25-2010, 19:25

ok, prepare for mind boggling post! Hopefully this is final. because I don't found anything to add anymore:dizzy2:

Local name(English name)[weapon]

wang tani (Civilian) [golok]

Wado (Sundanese watchmen) [golok]
Pajurit Tumbak (Sundanese Spearmen) [underarm spear]
Pajurit Pamanah (Sundanese Archer) [bamboo bow]
Pajurit Golok (Sundanese Shocktrooper) [golok]
Pajurit Pĕdang (Sundanese Swordsman)[Sword]

Jawara (Sundanese Heavy shocktrooper) [golok]
Bayangkara (Sundanese Elite Watchmen) [underarm spear+javelin]
Pamanah (Sundanese Elite Archer) [bamboo war bow+golok]
Pamarang (Sundanese Elite Swordsmen) [sword]
*Pajurit Angklung (Sundanese Music Corps)[WAR MUSIC!] *don't laugh,its historical!*

Balamati Pamanah (Sundanese Royal Archer) [bamboo war bow+golok]
Balamati Pamarang (Sundanese Royal Swordsman) [swords]
Balamati Kujang Jago (Sundanese Royal Bladesman) [kujang jago]
Balamati Tumpak Kuda (Sundanese Royal Cavalry) [javelin+spear]
Kasatrya Pamanah Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Archer)[Bamboo war bow+dual wield golok]
Kasatrya Pamarang Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsman)[dual wield sword]
Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cavalry)[kujang pangarak+ dual wield sword]

Pamuk (Sundanese Hero)[longsword+bamboo warbow]
Kareta Kuda (Sundanese Chariot)[one man with bamboo warbow, one man with spear, one driver]
#Pajurit Gajah Siliwangi (Sundanese Elephant Bodyguard) [spear+javelin]

regional:
Bandrang Keraton(Cirebonan Spearmen)[two handed spear]
Pamanah Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosuwan elite Archer)[bamboo warbow]
Pasukan Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosowan elite spearmen)[twohanded spear]
Pamarang Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosowan Elite Swordsman)[poisoned golok]
Jawara Ciomas (Ciomas Fighter)[poisoned golok]
Pajurit Kuda Windu (Windu Cavalry) [spear+javelin]
Bonus: Baladia Onom Galuh(Betrayer Army) [anything] *its like Dead man of Dunnharrow*:skull:

PS:I know that Gerak Cepat sound silly(myself always laugh when hear it):laugh4::sweatdrop: but its historical. some say it is the special forces that open Pajajaran mighty gate.
PS:Banten golok was more lethal than Priangan Golok and Pesisir Golok, because it use poison during making process.
PS:# Bodyguard unit
PS(again): who's Ikazz?
PS(I think to many PS here): Pajajaran unit at forumotion haven't updated.

Nyz

04-25-2010, 20:19

Pendekar, or more rightly "Pandekar" is allready taken by Javanese commoner knights... I remember to read about them, prisoners, former pirates and convicts, that volunteered to fight in the shock troops as a pardon (pangampunan) to their past crimes, mentioned in acehnese articles, but they also mention that Malaysian sultanates also have this kind of pardon system... so I guess they are common shock troops employed that time... (two handed sword is probably only our (sonic and me) interpretation, since it was hard to think you are only given one sword and must go charge the enemy line without a shield or any kind of protection (they said about only wearing simple clothes), and another sentences mentioned that their hands are full of blood (indirectly means that they use both hands to swing different swords - as in Acehnese soldiery, great two handed sword (peusangan) are reserved only for military cadets, and not criminals).

Oh I see. In Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were mention the word Hamba Tebusan, Hamba Sahaya, Hamba Raja and Budak Raja to describe the slave.

Melayu-Sriwj Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin)
Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers)
Melayu Iron-Clad War Elephants (elephant-javelin)

I have found that in the letter of Acheh's Sultan Iskandar Muda to England's King James I stated that His Majesty has very ornamented elephants and hundreds of war elephant (gajah perang):

ialah raja yang karunia Allah Ta‘ala mengempukan gajah berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi dan beratus-ratus gajah daripada gajah perang yang berbeluhan besi dan behalap gading besi malila dan berkaus besi dan tembaga;

he is the king granted by God the possession of elephants caparisoned in gold studded with jewels and lapis-lazuli, and hundreds of elephants for use in war with steel-framed howdahs, their tusks sheathed and tipped in steel and their feet shod in steel and copper;

Cute Wolf

04-25-2010, 20:20

Ikazz is Juragan Bata, sonic's historical contact I think....

and I will definitely try to reduce some of it :wall: that was tad too many.... the similar units (with only little differences in either weaponary or battle usage) could be merged...

jirisys

04-26-2010, 16:49

Cute Wolf

04-26-2010, 18:06

jirisys

04-27-2010, 04:06

Correction, that was malayan.... well, Indonesian and Malayan language are quite similar, but with such critical difference that will made misunderstanding quite easy to occur...

BTW, how's my request of uncarpeted Asian elephant skin? did you have put that? we should look at the model (apply that to the vanilla models)... so we can give about the details of their anatomy.. :beam:

@All : Please speak in english, except when quoting textual evidence... we can go in the Mod discussion thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?123821-Nusantara-Total-War if we sorely need to talk something in Indo Malayan language.... (so no one will bang their head because of our mumblings)

Well i have uncarpeted it but i can't find it now... it seems i forgot to organize the folders and i can't remember the name... so it's all a mess... plus i had a long homework this weekend and a sports event on saturday... so i have been very busy (with the dancing practice for the event and all that stuff)

Anyway... i thank you nagged them, but... that... didn't quite... made me... understand what he said:clown:

~Jirisys (daancing... yeah!:clown:)

Nyz

04-27-2010, 12:12

Here a list of Malay's names:

Male Names:

Abdul Jalil
Abdul Karim
Abdul Majid
Abdul Malik
Abdul Rahman
Abdullah
Abu Bakar
Ahmad
Ahmad Tajuddin
Alauddin Mughayat (I found that only Sultan of used this name, not others royal and noble)
Alauddin Riayat (I found that only Sultan of used this name, not others royal and noble)
Ali
Biajid
Habib
Hassan
Ibrahim
Isap
Ishak
Iskandar
Jaafar
Jenal
Kadim
Kassim
Khoja Hassan
Koris
Mahmud
Mansur
Muhammad
Mustafa
Muzaffar
Nadim
Salahuddin
Tajul Ariffin
Yusuf
Zainal Abidin
Ismail
Abdul Aziz
Badrul Alam
Abdul Halim
Sulaiman

Female Names:

Dang Baru
Dang Kamala
Dang Merdu
Dang Anum
Dang Sandang
Dang Merduwati
Dang Raya Rani,
Dang Bibah
Dang Bunga
Tun Senja
Tun Puteh
Tun Wati
Tun Kudu
Jamilah
Aminah

Inherited Malay Titles (or surname)

Usually Malay don’t have surname. Their name are base on (given name) Bin (or Binti for female) (name of his / her father). eg: Ali Bin Abu / Fatimah Binti Said : Ali and Fatimah are given names, while Abu and Said are their fathers.

However, Malay has inherited titles (like Pangeran in Brunei and Indonesia) which are inherited through one’s descendant.

Royal title:

Raja (Melaka royal family used this title)
Tengku
Tunku
Engku
Ungku

Noble title:

Tun
Wan
Megat
Che
Syed (title of the descendant from Arab noble families)
Sheikh (title of the descendant from Arab noble family / Muslim scholars)

So, one’s name can be like this: Raja Ali / Tun Zainal Abidin / Tunku Ismail / Wan Ahmad (titles come first, followed by one’s name) and the titles are inherited by the descendant (like surname)

Hmm, can RTW engine implement this? (Surnames come first, followed by names)

Office titles

Office titles were awarded after few years in office and they are non-hereditary. Usually, after a noble get a title, he was called by the title name to address him (like someone who changes his name).

Syah (only king and faction heir used this title, other member of royal family not used it)
Sarwa Raja
Paduka Raja
Seri Buana
Seri Maharaja Lela
Seri Utama
Tun Bija Sura
Seri Maharaja
Seri Sarwa Diraja
Bija Sura
Sang Nila Utama
Seri Nara Diraja
Seri Wak Raja
Ratna Diraja
Pekerma Jaya
Perpatih Muka Berjajar
Perpatih Tulus
Paduka Tuan
Seri Amar Diraja
Narawangsa
Perpatih Putih
Perpatih Sedang
Siwa Raja

I Think in RTW engine, name cannot be changed. But it can be added using epithet. In EB, I have found that they are using epithet in export_VnVs.text files for Hayasdan, Pahlava and SPQR.

So, for example, it will become like this:

First case:

A newly recruited general name is Tun Ali. Then, after have been awarded a title (eg Seri Maharaja Lela title), his name change to: Tun Ali Seri Maharaja Lela.

Second case:

At first, when a royal family members coming of age, his name is eg: Raja Ahmad
Then, after have been awarded a title, his name change to: Raja Ahmad Seri Maharaja Lela.

Then, after becoming faction leader, can his name be changed to Sultan Ahmad Syah?

Cute Wolf

04-27-2010, 14:11

we (mostly Sonic), actually plan to use offices as title, such as "Sultan of Malaka", "Sultan of Johor", "Sultan of Banten" (given the condition that the character govern at that specific Region(s) for quite some time, was a muslim, and no other one get the title. Of course, Hindu (and possibly Christian) characters, got the eqivalent "Raja Malaka", "Raja Banten".... that was quite easy ancillaries....

"Sultan offices" ancillaries will be granted in condition that the character stay there for 12 turns and had "Zoroastrian (actually modded in text to shown as muslim)" as his traits. If he didn't have minimal Zoroastrian 1 trait, the "Raja offices" will be given instead....

just like the lordship and satrapdom found in some certain mods....

Nyz

04-28-2010, 00:42

Well, by using ancillaries, you can extend "Sultan Office" to other offices...like the 4 major offices of Bendahara (Prime Minister), Laksamana (Lord Admiral), Temenggung (Inspector General of Police) and Penghulu Bendahari (Minister of Finance).... I know that modding ancillaries is easier than modding traits....Well, if you all cannot make the titles come later and change character's name, we have to make the character name like "Tun Ali Datuk Paduka Raja" from the start...

And, for your information, not all head of province get Sultan title. The title of head of province under a subjugation of bigger empire can be Penghulu (for small settlement) (like Tun Perak appointed as Penghulu of Kelang before promoted as Bendahara); or Mandulika / Mendelika (Governor, govern bigger settlement) and lastly, Raja (king, govern a state).

In Sejarah Melayu, it was stated that the ousted Prince of Melaka, Raja Muhammad Syah (Son of Sultan Mansur Syah, ousted because kill a commoner), appointed as Raja Pahang, not Sultan of Pahang (Pahang at that time was vassal of Melaka). Terengganu had a special title for her governor, Megat Terengganu.

The Sultan title can be with condition; Raja of a province has enough power to declaring independent from its protector. Then, he can claim he is the Sultan (of that province / state). It can be done trough peaceful way, or forceful way. These were the case:

a) When last Sultan of Melaka pass away, Melakan Empire splited to two. The 1st Prince, Sultan Muzaffar Syah appointed as Sultan of Perak, and the remaining south empire ruled by 2nd Prince, Sultan Alauddin Riayat Syah (II) (1st Sultan of Johor). Pahang was still as the vassal of Johor, and the head of state still called Raja. (Peaceful way).

b) During the reign of Sultan Abdul Jalil IV (Sultan Johor), Bendahara was granted Pahang as their personal fief. They are also known as "Raja Bendahara" for their status as the rulers of the vassal state of Pahang. Pahang was the vassal of Johore Sultanate. Tun Mutahir, Bendahara Seri Maharaja, Raja Bendahara Pahang V (1847-1863). He is the last reigning Raja Bendahara of Pahang. He was ousted by his brother Wan Ahmad who was later proclaimed as Sultan of Pahang after the dismemberment of the Johore Empire. (Forceful way)

c) Raja Lumu, the son of Bugis Chief, Daeng Celak, govern the Selangor area at the height of Bugis influence in Malay peninsula. He originally met with opposition from the Sultans of Perak and Johor, as well as from the Dutch, but eventually managed to consolidate his position as sovereign. By 1770, Sultan Muhammad of Perak was forced to recognize Raja Lumu as Sultan of Selangor (he brought warships to Perak) and force Sultan of Perak to give insignia of Malay royalty and made installation ceremony as Sultan of Selangor. Then he changed his name to Sultan Salehuddin Syah. (Forceful way)

"Sultan offices" ancillaries will be granted in condition that the character stay there for 12 turns and had "Zoroastrian (actually modded in text to shown as muslim)" as his traits. If he didn't have minimal Zoroastrian 1 trait, the "Raja offices" will be given instead....

Well, it is not that the King get the Sultan title because he is more Islamic than the other......

Cute Wolf

04-28-2010, 04:07

hoo... then what about the possibility of hindu FM got "Sultan" title..... seems too weird.... (allready mentioned that we'll use floating religion system)

Nyz

04-28-2010, 04:14

No no Hindu's not get Sultan titles.... only Muslim's Sultan of Melaka, Sultan of Acheh.... and no Sultan of Pahang..... or Sultan of Johor titles can be awarded if there is Sultan of Melaka already.... existed.

Cute Wolf

04-28-2010, 04:43

and what abot the title of Raja? or Maharaja...
I remember something about Seri Prameswara Dewa Syah (hindu king of malaka inserted in the line of Muslims), Maharaja Baladewa Iskandar Intan Syah (hindu king of palembang of muslim parents and his son later going (forced by the people's assembly) back to muslim... but he was definitely hindu... Not to mention the (often neglected, or actually... discounted from history and labelled as rebel by muslim historian because of his un-islamic act"... Prabu Aryo Penangsang of Demak "Sultanate" (he was actually hindu)

Nyz

04-28-2010, 05:08

Well, in Sejarah Melayu, "Seri Parameswara Dewa Syah" is not mentioned. Historian associated Seri Parameswara Dewa Syah with Raja Ibrahim, and the religion was Hindu. the Sejarah Melayu mentioned this:

Setelah itu maka anakanda baginda, Raja Ibrahim kerajaan menggantikan ayahanda baginda, gelar baginda Sultan Abu Syahid...

Well, interesting...some contradiction with historian...

Hindu King = Raja /Maharaja (clearly)
Islam King = Sultan (the only head of an empire, not his vassal)
Raja = Islam King that become governor of a vassal state (only a vassal of Melaka get Sultan title: Siak.... The others, like Pahang, Singapura, Terengganu = Raja (Megat for Terengganu)...if the head of Faction used Sultan (Muslim only), it is mean the Faction is not a vassal of anyone...it is independent....

For Siak,it was a special case...Siak was client kingdom of Melaka, already have it's Sultan before submit to Melaka.

So, in this game, who is Sultan?

a) Muslim, and
b) Faction Leader of Melaka and Acheh (other factions used Sultan besides these 2 in this game?), not a family member / general who govern a city.

Well, a rebelling Muslim family member and become governor of the rebelling province can use Sultan.

Cute Wolf

04-28-2010, 07:22

but as far as offices are concerned, Sultan of Aceh actually had several lesser sultans with him, Sultan of Deli, Sultan of Siak, Sultan of Marrangi... all are Aceh's subordinate, and relatives...

yeah, muslim historian (no muslim bashing intended), almost always downplays the "murtadin" rulers of a previously muslim empire... they are usually mentioned as bad and tyrant kings (even when outside sources prove otherwise), if still recognized as leader... or wrote them as rebel ruler (which was quite illogical, since Aryo Penangsang was actually Sultan Trenggana's Nephew, and direct descendant of Raden Patah... he was more legitimate ruler than Joko Tingkir, who was Sultan's son in law). If not because another historian's writings (taken from Bali "Wong Majapahit" scrolls)....

plutoboyz

04-28-2010, 08:16

Cute Wolf

04-28-2010, 08:20

actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).

and Cutewolf, as an orthodox muslim. I doubt that "biased" historian was real muslim.

that was the fact of several hindu rulers, who recorded as rebel, instead of legitimate rulers by muslim sources, where hindu and or european sources said that was legitimate rulers... oh yeah, those "biased" historian was really muslim... (no religious offense intended), look at hikayat wali songo then...

EDIT : they did wrote that there was hindu kings or rulers as sucessor to muslim rulers... but they always stressed them as either tyrant, incompetent, or rebellious rulers... we must admit that something must be going wrong... (did you believe that all hindu rulers after some period of muslim rule eastablishments... all are tyrant and incompetent?)

plutoboyz

04-28-2010, 08:45

that was the fact of several hindu rulers, who recorded as rebel, instead of legitimate rulers by muslim sources, where hindu and or european sources said that was legitimate rulers... oh yeah, those "biased" historian was really muslim... (no religious offense intended), look at hikayat wali songo then...

EDIT : they did wrote that there was hindu kings or rulers as sucessor to muslim rulers... but they always stressed them as either tyrant, incompetent, or rebellious rulers... we must admit that something must be going wrong... (did you believe that all hindu rulers after some period of muslim rule eastablishments... all are tyrant and incompetent?)

I mean they are muslim who do not learn Islam from Quran. propaganda also play some role on spreading religion.

and also, ancient historian have their own agenda. example; the greeks and the word "barbarian"

and I can't judge whether they are Evil or Good. I never live during their reign.

Cute Wolf

04-28-2010, 08:49

I mean they are muslim who do not learn Islam from Quran. propaganda also play some role on spreading religion.

and also, ancient historian have their own agenda. example; the greeks and the word "barbarian"

and I can't judge whether they are Evil or Good. I never live during their reign.

ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)

Nyz

04-28-2010, 08:58

but as far as offices are concerned, Sultan of Aceh actually had several lesser sultans with him, Sultan of Deli, Sultan of Siak, Sultan of Marrangi... all are Aceh's subordinate, and relatives...

I not really sure how Sultanate of Acheh works, but in Malaysia it was like that. Even until now the King of Perlis is known by Raja Perlis.

"The State of Perlis (Negeri Perlis Indera Kayangan) has its origins during the period of Thai rule over the northern Malay states. The Thais followed a classic "divide and rule policy" and divided the state of Kedah into sevelal region, namely Perlis, Kubang Pasu, Setul and Kedah. Perlis, a region within Kedah, became a separate polity under the former Sultan Zia ud-din Mukarram Shah II, after he abdicated in 1803.

Sultan Zia's daughter married a Syed of Arabic descent, named Abu Bakar Harun Jamal' ul-Lail. The latter had been Penghulu, or subordinate chief, of Arau since 1797. His son and successor, Syed Husain received promotion to Raja of Perlis Indera Kayangan in 1843 by Thai's king, after helping the Thais to suppress a revolt by the Raja of Ligor. Raja of Perlis never installed properly as a Sultan, until now."

yeah, muslim historian (no muslim bashing intended), almost always downplays the "murtadin" rulers of a previously muslim empire... they are usually mentioned as bad and tyrant kings (even when outside sources prove otherwise), if still recognized as leader... or wrote them as rebel ruler (which was quite illogical, since Aryo Penangsang was actually Sultan Trenggana's Nephew, and direct descendant of Raden Patah... he was more legitimate ruler than Joko Tingkir, who was Sultan's son in law). If not because another historian's writings (taken from Bali "Wong Majapahit" scrolls)....

I am not sure about that, but Sejarah Melayu or Hikayat Hang Tuah never mention about "Murtadin" as bad and tryrant kings. Even Hikayat Hang Tuah praised the Hindu's King of Vijayanagar and Nagapattinam as benevolent and justice.

actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).

That's what I am trying to say in my #137 and #139 posts.

ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)

I have suggest many example in my #137 and #139 posts. He can become bendahara, temenggung, laksamana (even laksamana come from the word Laksmi, Hindu Goddess), and Penghulu Bendahari, or just give him Raja or Maharaja.

plutoboyz

04-28-2010, 09:00

ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)

hmm... Raja or Maharaja. because Raja is already adopted as Indonesian and Malay language. some Muslim Ruler also use Raja or Maharaja.

Cute Wolf

04-28-2010, 09:14

so, I think (because of limitation, and yeah, not only aceh, but some other sultanates have sultan of sultan titles, such as Sultan of Belitong are vassal of the Sultan of Palembang) we should made this generalization this much....

Faction leader got:
- if he was a muslim : Sultan (and taken as ephitet)
- If he was not a muslim : Maharaja (and taken as ephitet)

Governmental offices:
- if he was a muslim, and rule the historical Sultanate seat : Sultan Bla-bla-bla (offices only, not ephitet)
- if he was a muslim, but not rule the historical Sultanate seat : Raja Bla-bla-bla
- if he wasn't a muslim : Raja Bla-bla-bla...

plutoboyz

04-28-2010, 09:18

How about the Hindu one?

Cute Wolf

04-28-2010, 10:26

got Raja-Maharaja.... because all the Christian (puppet) rulers are taken hindu-derived titles and offices too...

Nyz

04-29-2010, 05:16

Melayu Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces)

Well, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, Letter of Sultan Iskandar Thani to Prince Frederik Hendrik of Orange, Hikayat Amir Hamzah it was called Kuda Perang, while in Hikayat Acheh, Bustan as-Salatin and Hikayat Muhamad Hanafiah, it was called Kuda Peperangan.

Cute Wolf

04-30-2010, 10:18

well, so Melaka or Aceh really didn't have mounted archer, put aside some turkish soldiers briefly employed in Aceh?

Nyz

04-30-2010, 16:50

well, so Melaka or Aceh really didn't have mounted archer

Hmm mounted archer... well in Hikayat Hang Tuah it stated that the horse users were using pedang or lembing.

, put aside some turkish soldiers briefly employed in Aceh?

May I know why you come with this conclusion? For Turkish soldier, I am not sure, but in Hikayat Acheh it stated that the usage of Lasykar Ghori (form Ghorid, Afghanistan).

In Hikayat Hang Tuah, it was stated that Melaka was buying Meriam and Bedil (cannon and cannon-ball) from Turki. But Turki name was not mention as Turki, It was mentioned as Rum (maybe from Saljuqian-e-Rum, the [Turkish Sultanate], but definitely not Rome [SPQR], and not Byzantine Rome :laugh4:). Hikayat Acheh also mention Rum, not Turki.

Hikayat Patani also mentioned Rum, and stated that a Rum Man named Abdul Samad assisted Patani in making cannon-ball.

Do you think when the word Turki come to history?

Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)

In Sejarah Melayu, it was stated the phrase Sidi Arab, (Sidi from the word Sayyidi [my lord]), an Arabian that really good in archery, but not mention that he was using Scimitar...

Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces)

For Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces), do you have the translation in Bahasa Acheh?

In letter of Sultan Iskandar Muda to King James I, letter of Sultan Iskandar Thani to Prince Frederik Hendrik of Orange and Letter of Sultanah Tajul Alam to King Charles II (all Acheh's Sultans) it was stated the special ornamented horses (kuda berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi, berkaus mas dan suasa) but not named it.

In Syair Almarhum Sultan Abu Bakar: Koeda Beginda
In Hikayat Maharaja Mikrama: Kuda Genderaan
In Hikayat Acheh, Adat Raja Melayu and Sejarah Melayu: Kuda Kenaikan

Hmm, What do you think?

It was also stated Kuda Semberani and Kuda Tizi / Tezi, but that's not quite right, that were the names for type of breed of the horse...

Rahwana

05-01-2010, 05:21

of course we know that sultan of Rum, means turks, because if we go letter for letter, Jirisys might be confused :grin:

and it was more logic involved, I see CW not yet giving the gunpowder units, but here's the gunpowder units for Melayu:
- Gun Skirmishers (cheap gun infantry - remember that guns are actually easier to use than bows, they will be short ranged like skirmishers, and not too accurate, but cheap and widely available)
- Gun troopers the Regular Gunners
- Turkish gun troopers (regular gunners - on par with european gunners)
- Elite musketters (elite unit)

and if you ask about the turkish elite archer-swordsmen, you must remember that the Ottoman themself are gun producers, but they still use more traditional cavalry and infantry arm, especially Yeniceri units, to do most of their battle jobs. It was just a logic that most of the turkish soldiers "imported" will be gunners and gun crews, but Turkish (Rum) cavalry did mentioned, and they are most likely HA Spahis.

The turkish themself didn't use guns exstensively before the reform that introduce the Nizam army, much later...

Nyz

05-01-2010, 06:24

In Sejarah Melayu, the gun user was called Pegawai Istinggar. Used by Sultanate of Johor after the fall of Melaka to face Portuguese. But I am not sure wheather they were skirmisher, regular or elite, but the word Pegawai have connotation with middle class soldier.

BTW, the Turkish soldier in Acheh were called by Tuskish names or Acheh names?

of course we know that sultan of Rum, means turks, because if we go letter for letter, Jirisys might be confused :grin:

~Jirisys (You are not confused, do you?:clown:)

Rahwana

05-01-2010, 06:33

calling them "tentera rum" will cause confusion...

Nyz

05-01-2010, 06:41

calling them "tentera rum" will cause confusion...

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:. Tentera Rum make me think about Sassanid and Rome era of conflict.

Rahwana

05-01-2010, 07:07

yeah, I said to CW that maybe we should use Tentera Usman, but apparently, he didn't understand that Usman / Uthman, were the "original" name of the Ottomans

EDIT : he does undertands that "Uthmani" is another name of the Turks, but he thinks that inclusion of the Pahlawan Uthmani, as opposed to Syamisir was a bit weird.

By the way, he had reported that current bodyguard units are (on large):

Europeans : - Knights ( full armoured heavy cavalry with lances and swords ) 20 horsemen per unit (1 HP)

Aceh-Melaka : - Gajah Kenaikan ( elephant archers bodyguards ) 12 men (4 elephants) per unit (4HP / elephants)

Sriwijaya-Palembang : - Pengawal ????? (heavy cavalry with lances and axes / or maybe maces) 30 horsemen per unit (1 HP)

Pajajaran : - Pengawal Kuda Purgabaya (heavy cavalry with javelins and parang (dual wield cavalry is impossible with curent animation stats) I don't know why he planned to made them into elite skirmisher typed cavalry as he using javelins and not lances. Ok, plutoboyz may know about that better, as they are 20 men per unit (2HP)

and this was the problem, the Javanese faction Bodyguards... actually, I and CW are arguing each other with what type of Bodyguards that they'll use...

well, the Javanese royalty have some weird (we can call them immposible to portay correctly in RTW) way to go to battle. Generally, the nobles will ride to battle as heavily armoured horse archers (close to what we call cataphracts), and true cataphract lancers (including turrangawesi, the specific Javanese horse armour that was made from lacquered wood paired with steel plates). But the true Royalty will be either (EITHER!!!) escorted by Chariots, or lifted in sedan chairs (how lazy!) into the battle. That was some account of Javanese Royalty riding horse into battle as Cataphract, but they are exceptions and those who fight as true cavalry are generally carrer generals, and not the pampered royalty...

well, taking the consideration on the default FM (which will be the born royalty bodyguards), they ride chariots into battle, or enjoy sedan chairs... but in Babad Tanah Jawi, if they are required to fought and bolster the men's morale....... THEY WILL FOUGHT DISMOUNTED.

well, and that was our subject of debate

1) I propose they should be chariot bodyguards, maybe chariot archers, the second points of this choice is : the Javanese army did have majority of Infantry, but cavalry is important aspect, and they have some of the best cavalry in this age, especially their mounted archers and cataphracts. It was a good reason to made the generals as cavalry units because they are supposed to be good cavalry factions... well... but

2) Cute Wolf propose they should be infantry bodyguards, as he points out that they fought dismounted, and in many records, the king himself would led the decisive charges on foot 9as opposed on the chariots), but this will be a bit ridiculous, remember that Javanese have good horsemen? and this will look like Saka army led by infantry generals... simply weird... confusing eh?

3) I try to made a compromise, they could be Cataphract archers bodyguards... as this way, they will capable to fought in melee, while have significant range and ability to skirmish out of the battle, and only involved personally only if required... but we still don't have one words in this matter... anyone could help with an idea? thanks...

Nyz

05-01-2010, 08:46

I agreed that Melaka using elephant as bodyguard. It was very clear in Hikayat too.

But for the sake of knowledge, Melaka royal members also used horses and palanquin (Paduka Tuan fought Portuguese on palanquin, that was stated in Sejarah Melayu), so it was same case as variety in Javanese bodyguard.

hmm, can the RTW engines make FM riding horse, than dismount when fighting?.... I don't think so.

Rahwana

05-01-2010, 09:06

yeah, but the Chariot - infantry - or cavalry bodyguards, are rather a big problem for us, at least now... what is your opinion then?

EDIT : the Javanese will have the best selection of cavalry, so I personally think CW ideas of presenting them with infantry BG are rather lame...

ADD: And I allready see that you mention the old unit lists, well, the slingers will be regionals, and the gun units have their own gunsmith buildings (the same with european barracks), so they will be put on the list later, when CW had done his works...

Nyz

05-01-2010, 10:27

yeah, but the Chariot - infantry - or cavalry bodyguards, are rather a big problem for us, at least now... what is your opinion then?

EDIT : the Javanese will have the best selection of cavalry, so I personally think CW ideas of presenting them with infantry BG are rather lame...

hmm, I don't want to speculate, but Hikayat Hang Tuah mentioned that Seri Betara Majapahit and Ratu Daha either riding elephant or horse.

Rahwana

05-01-2010, 10:39

hmm, I don't want to speculate, but Hikayat Hang Tuah mentioned that Seri Betara Majapahit and Ratu Daha either riding elephant or horse.

maybe we should made cavalry unit of them that way (sending SMS to CW's phone)... BTW, elephants is scarce commodity in Jawa, and elephant ridings was more ceremonial than practical.

ADD : And CW just said that made then 2 HP mounted archers is just silly, because the faction that should have the best close combat units is Pajajaran (the only one with 2HP bodyguards), made them into 20 men BG (like the europeans) will made them the worst bodyguard unit, while made them into 30 men Cataphract archers Bodyguards (just made them in line with South Sumateran cavalry bodyguards), will cause them to become de facto free upkeep Turanggawesi (javanese cataphract), because the standard Turanggawesi will only had 40 men per unit (they are rare unit, but have great impact in battle) maybe we should either raise the Javanese cataphract's numbers??? or let them become the cheapest and weakest BG arround with 20 men?

plutoboyz

05-01-2010, 11:19

Nyz

05-01-2010, 16:08

and it was more logic involved, I see CW not yet giving the gunpowder units, but here's the gunpowder units for Melayu:
- Gun Skirmishers (cheap gun infantry - remember that guns are actually easier to use than bows, they will be short ranged like skirmishers, and not too accurate, but cheap and widely available)
- Gun troopers the Regular Gunners
- Turkish gun troopers (regular gunners - on par with european gunners)
- Elite musketters (elite unit)

Well, up to today, 3 phrases are found: Saldadu Istinggar, Pegawai Istinggar (both in Sejarah Melayu) and Awinan Astenggar (Hikayat Banjar dan Kota Waringin)

Rahwana

05-02-2010, 04:37

no, their real name is Devlet-i ʿĀliye-yi ʿOsmāniyye. Osmāniyye for short (yes, it is how Ottoman turk call it.). Ustmani is for Arab, Persian. later introduced by the Persian to Aceh.
I have friend in Turkey. he knows a lot about Ottoman. do you have question about Ottoman army in Aceh?

puragabaya actually able to use anykinds of weapon. kujang is favored among noble and their Javelin actually is a spear, Legionary fighting style was common. so my suggestion is:

Native name : Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya.
English name: Sundanese Warrior preist cavalry.
Weapon: Kujang Pangarak(a spear-like kujang. like other kujang, its poisonous) and Javelin.

So we should made them into javelin-spear cavalry? hmm... just like Numidian Nobles?

Cute Wolf

05-02-2010, 05:08

so be it... thanks....

wait... did we finally agreed Javanese bodyguards as Catass Archers? any opinion?

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 09:20

After much re-reading arguments, articles, reviewing discussions, and taking into consideration of BOTH similar equipped and called units (so no more "hey, both of this units is called prajurit tumbak, they are equipped much the same, but why are two of them? the sundanese and javanese headgear is only a skin-deep portayal, no need to create another model nor another unit), reducing the overcrowding lists of elephants and chariots (dang! we could made most of them regionals)... so this is the unit lists...

Melayu (aceh-melaka)

factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Melayu Watchmen (tombak) = Orang Berkawal
Melayu-Sriwj City Guards (archer-golok) = Pengawal Kota
Acehnese Swordsmen Militia (pedang) = Laskar Aceh
Malaka-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-tombak) = Penjurit
Melayu Shock Trooper (double scimitar) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-golok) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Pangawitan
Acehnese Heavy Infantry (pedang) = Laskar Pedeung
Acehnese Cadet Shock Troopers (2handed peusangan) = Peusangan Askar
Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Laskar Pemanah
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Sayyidi Arab
Malakan Royal Swordsmen (keris panjang) = Bentara Istana
Acehnese Honorary Guards (javelin-kapak) = Sahabat Istana

factional cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda
Melayu-Sriwj Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces) = Kuda Perang
Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) = Pegawai Dan Pertuanan
Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)
Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces) = Ulee Balang
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers) = Gajah Perang Melayu

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok)
Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)

Bodyguard:
Melayu Bodyguards (elephant archers) = Gajah Kenaikan

Jawi (Bintara-Majapahit):

factional (non-gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Javanese Militia (tombak) = Kroco
Javanese Watchmen (archer-golok) = Jogo Karyo
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Javanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Prajurit Pamedhang
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Bintara Pikemen (pike-keris) = Tentoro Tumbak Dowo
Majapahit Axemen (2handed kapak) = Prajurit Kampak Blambangan
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Javanese "Saka" Heavy Spearmen (overhead tombakkeris) = Pagerwesi
Majapahit Armoured Macemen (gada) = Prajurit Godhowesi
Javanese Knights / Pendekar (2handed keris swords) = Pandhekar
Bintara Sultan's Chinese Guards (crossbow-scimitar) = Punggawa Cino
Javanese Noble Knights / Satria (keris panjang) = Satrio
Majapahit Royal Shadowguards (overhead tombakkeris) = Bhayangkara

Factional Cavalry:
Javanese Raider-Scouts (cavarchers-cavshortswords) = Telik Sandi
Javanese Feudal Cavalry (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Prajurit Tumpak Jaran
Javanese Noble Cataphract (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Turanggawesi
Javanese Cataphract Lancers (lancers-cavlswords) = Satriyo Turanggawesi
Javanese Elite Cataphracts (cavarchers-lancers) = Satriyo Priyayi
Javanese Chariots (chariot-archers) = Kreto Tempur
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Javanese Armoured War Elephantss (elephant-javelin) = Gajah Wesi

Gunpowder Units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Javanese Gunners (gun-keris)
Bintara-Palembang Royal Chinese Gunners (gun-dao)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Javanese Cataphract Bodyguards (cavarchers-kerislancers) = Punggawa Turanggawesi

Pajajaran:

factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Sundanese Watchmen (golok) = Wado
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Sundanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Pamarang
Sundanese Elite Watchmen (javelin-tombak) = Bayangkara
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Swordsmen (longswords) = Prajurit Bajubesi
Sundanese Royal Spearmen (tombakkujang) = Balamati
Sundanese Royal Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Balamati Kujang
Sundanese Jawara (double golok) = Jawara
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsmen (parang) = Kasatrya Pamarang Purgabaya
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Kasatrya Kujang Purgabaya
Sundanese Elite Warrior-Priest (2handed tombakkujang) = Kasatrya Purgabaya

factional cavalry:
Sundanese Light Cavalry (cavjav-lancers) = Prajurit Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Royal Horsemen (cavparang) = Balamati Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cav (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Kasatrya Kuda Purgabaya
Sundanese Chariot (chariot-archers) = Kereta Kuda
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Sundanese War Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Pasukan Gajah Siliwangi

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Gunners (gun-longswords)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Sundanese WarPri Cav Bodyguards (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Pengawal Purgabaya

South Sumatera (Palembang-Sriwijaya)

factional (non-gunpowder) infantry:
Sriwj Town Watch (pedang) = Penjaga Kota
Melayu-Sriwj City Guards (archer-golok) = Pengawal Kota
Sriwj Skirmishers (javelin-overhead tombak) = Pelempar Lembing
Malaka-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-tombak) = Penjurit
Sriwj Axe Soldiers (javelin-kapak) = Tentara Kapak
Sriwj Light Infantry (javelin-kukhri) = Tentara Sriwijaya
Sriwj Crossbowmen (crossbow-golok) = Pembidik
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-golok) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Pangawitan
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Sriwj Elite Mariners (pedang panjang) = Pelaut Sriwijaya
Sriwijaya Elite Light Infantry (javelin-kukhri) = Kesatria Kukri
Palembang Palace Guards (keris panjang) = Pengawal Istana
Sriwijaya Black Lotus (2handed tombak) = Teratai Hitam

Factional Cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda
Melayu-Sriwj Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces) = Kuda Perang
Sriwj Noble Cavalry (cavjav-kerislancers) = Prajurit Bangsawan
Sriwj Royal Cavalry (kerislancers-cavkapak) = Prajurit Kuda Istana
Sriwijayan Chariots (chariot-javelins) = Kereta Perang
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Sriwijayan War Elephants (elephant-archers) = Gajah Perang Sumatera

Gunpowder Units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sriwj Indian Gunners (gun-scimitar)
Bintara-Palembang Royal Chinese Gunners (gun-dao)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Sriwj Bodyguards (lancers-cavaxes) = Pengawal Berkuda

EDIT : Stats will be updated later

well.... similar names, means they are one unit indeed... (kembali ngerjain TA... huhuhu)

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 11:42

I have correct something.

Pajajaran:

factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Sundanese Watchmen (golok) = Wado
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Sundanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Pamarang
Sundanese Elite Watchmen (javelin-tombak) = Bayangkara
Sundanese Jawara (double golok) = Jawara
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Swordsmen (longswords) = Pajurit Bajubesi
Sundanese Royal Spearmen (tombakkujang) = Balamati
Sundanese Royal Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Balamati Kujang
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsmen (parang) = Kasatrya Pamarang Purgabaya
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Kasatrya Kujang Purgabaya
Sundanese Elite Warrior-Priest (2handed tombakkujang) = Kasatrya Purgabaya

factional cavalry:
Sundanese Light Cavalry (cavjav-lancers) = Pajurit Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Royal Horsemen (cavparang) = Balamati Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cav (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Kasatrya Kuda Purgabaya
Sundanese Chariot (chariot-archers) = Kareta Kuda Perang (actually it can engage in melee combat as well, like chinese chariot.)
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah(better remove)
Sundanese War Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Pajurit Gajah Siliwangi

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Gunners (gun-longswords)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Sundanese WarPri Cav Bodyguards (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Pangawal Purgabaya or Pangawal Sang Hulu Jurit

btw, are Bintara and Majapahit army really same? I thought it was different.

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 11:51

what? you must never heard what your teacher says in history subjects... Kesultanan Demak are founded by Majapahit Muslim prince, "Raden Patah", who coordination with "wali songo" caused a significant portion of Majapahit army to embrace Islam, and support Demak instead... So that's why they are essentially same army type, with minor variants in elite units (Raden Patah and Wali Songo are Muslim Chinese, so it was not surprising, when the recent scroll translations shown that Demak employs sizeable numbers of Chinese (muslim) soldiers. While majapahit still stucked with older style soldiers, like macemen, and axemen, which was still very intimidating due to their prowess, and the later axemen employs war tattos made of human (enemy) blood)

well, and the "forest worker elephants" are esentially local elephant forces, pressed to serve in war..... better not to remove them... as they are generic unit for every native factions

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 12:08

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 12:16

I do listen my teacher. but what I meant is that Demak, is one of most technologically advanced army along with Aceh, Melaka and Banten. there must be a significant difference between Majapahit and Demak.

btw, I don't see Balamati Pamanah? Removed? and about Pamarang, because their name is pamarang doesn't mean they carry Parang. they carry sword(Pědang).

They can train pikemen, while Majapahit can't
They can train disciplined Arab Swordsmen, while Majapahit can't
They can train chinese gunners and elite guards (w crossbows), while Majapahit can't
And I not yet updated the artillery, but Majapahit will only get a few, while Demak had second best full acess of Artillery after Aceh... (discounting Europeans)

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 12:22

They can train pikemen, while Majapahit can't
They can train disciplined Arab Swordsmen, while Majapahit can't
They can train chinese gunners and elite guards (w crossbows), while Majapahit can't
And I not yet updated the artillery, but Majapahit will only get a few, while Demak had second best full acess of Artillery after Aceh... (discounting Europeans)

Thats what I mean. you merge the list, confuse me. btw, Why Jawi? Jawi is Malaysian Arab Abjad. and where is trisula warrior? Sriwijaya known for It's Trisula User.

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 12:36

Thats what I mean. you merge the list, confuse me. btw, Why Jawi? Jawi is Malaysian Arab Abjad. and where is trisula warrior? Sriwijaya known for It's Trisula User.

I'm affraid you are mistaken about Jawi... ancient Javanese called the greater jawa as Jawi... and remember that one of the primary sources are "Babad Tanah Jawi"

And about Trisula? I know it, but it was more ceremonial (and assasination-related) nature than battle worthy... a dagger which only had a small section of sharpened tip, no more than 30 cm in blade length, and the proper user must put his middle and index fingers in the grip. I think their nobles will carry it on their armour as backup, but an't be portayed in real battle sequences...

And if you may argue that will be longer variation for battle, I will said that put aside Strict Palembang and Pasemah Area, there was no evidence of widespread trisula weaponary... perhaps we could use them as regionals? (but definitely not with 30 cm blade)

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 13:14

30 cm? no, I mean The Spear version. its used sometimes by Sunda-Galuh, Banten and Cirebon which I'm sure introduced by Sriwijayan during Java Expedition.

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 13:23

oh, garpu perang? (Damn, when I heard Trisula, I always remember Ninja Turtles).... ngga banyak dipakai, mungkin ntar jadi regional aja...

Nyz

05-03-2010, 13:48

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok)
Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)

Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub) : Penjurit Istinggar / Laskar Istinggar, which one better?

Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok) : Pegawai Istinggar

Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars) : Soldadu Istinggar / Ispinggar (well, in Hikayat hang Tuah, the one that used scimitar and gun was called serdadu / seridadu / soldadu or we are using Turkish language?, while ispinggar is in Hikayat Acheh, the soldier that used gun and Busur Perasi (Persian-bow, used by crew of Mir'at as-Safa [Acheh Royal battleship])

Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars) : Awinan Estanggar (Awinan / Pengawinan is royal spear-bearer, can we design the gun to be decorated?)

Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)

Not found any translated word yet. Maybe we can use Turkish word?

Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot

I think Laut is the standard spelling in Kamus.

Melayu Shock Trooper (double scimitar) = Tentera Penggempur

First, I suggest Tentera penggempur because I directly translated it from English. But when you said it was employed because of the "Pengampunan" system, I suggest new name: Orang Suruhan (this phrase was found many in Hikayat and text), or Orang Kerahan (found in Syair Sultan Maulana) or Tentera Kerahan / Askar Kerahan / Kerahan Tenaga

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 14:12

wolf, what you mean about Turkish Soldier, is it about Osmani soldier under Kurtoğlu? or about Aceh soldier that trained by Osmani Officer? my friend confused.

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 14:22

they are pretty much foreign soldiers hired to fight for.... maybe under kartogulu ... (hmm must wait for a week for sonic to shown up again)

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 14:50

Kurtoğlu shown up in 1564, mainly consist of mariner.

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 14:52

if he carry a lot of gunmen, that's him

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 15:04

Gunmen? Not many Gunmen, but countless Big baddass Turkish Bombard.

Cute Wolf

05-03-2010, 15:30

Gunmen? Not many Gunmen, but countless Big baddass Turkish Bombard.

yeah, that's right.... including the big monster bombard of M2TW? :grin:

plutoboyz

05-03-2010, 17:47

yeah, that's right.... including the big monster bombard of M2TW? :grin:

umm.... nope. their ship can't hold such thing. basically, it was Mariner, and some Auxilary troops.

Nyz

05-04-2010, 16:22

Melayu (aceh-melaka)
factional cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda

Well, I suggest the phrase "Gembala Kuda" (Horse Herdsman), because:

a) The term Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah appear in Hikayat Hang Tuah as the trainer of war horses and war elephants.

b) Although herdsman associated with civilian, horse herdsman and elephant herdsman / mahout were special in Malay society because they were not like cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd (they trained horse and elephant for war and vehicle, while cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd rear cow and goat for livestock, and buffaloes to plough the paddy-field. Horses are too expensive to become livestock.)

c) Well, they are militia cavalry, originally as civilian, then become soldier at time of emergency.

Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah

I suggest the phrase "Gembala Gajah" (mahout) because of above reasons.

A part of Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah, the term Penghulu Kuda and Penghulu Gajah also appeared in Hikayat Acheh, they were royal trainer of war horses and elephants in Acheh court.

Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)

Well, I only found the term Kuda Tizi Peperangan (swift horse of war) from the letter of Acheh's Sultan and Sultanah, it said that the horse breed was imported from various places, especially middle-east:

...ialah raja yang karunia Allah Ta‘ala mengempukan kuda berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi dan beratus2 kuda tizi peperangan yang seru jenis daripada jenis Arabi dan Rumi dan Turki dan Kuci dan Lahur dan Abaya dan Tongkin dan Gudh

(he is the king granted by God the possession of horses caparisoned in gold studded with jewels and lapis-lazuli and hundreds of swift horses for use in war, of all kinds of stock, Arab and Rumi (Byzantine) and Turkish and Cochin and Lahore and Abaya and Tongkin and Gudh)

Cute Wolf

05-05-2010, 05:33

I think the word "gembala" are rather melayu only words... because the Javanese also share that kind of unit (who'll not using elephants in war when available, even when barely trained for war?)

G. Septimus

05-05-2010, 10:18

hey,
after watching a NatGeo Doc.
Malaysians use Special Warriors: Silat Men to Resist Enemy Invasions
maybe it will help as one Special Unit in this mod?

Well, I suggest the phrase "Gembala Kuda" (Horse Herdsman), because:

a) The term Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah appear in Hikayat Hang Tuah as the trainer of war horses and war elephants.

b) Although herdsman associated with civilian, horse herdsman and elephant herdsman / mahout were special in Malay society because they were not like cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd (they trained horse and elephant for war and vehicle, while cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd rear cow and goat for livestock, and buffaloes to plough the paddy-field. Horses are too expensive to become livestock.)

c) Well, they are militia cavalry, originally as civilian, then become soldier at time of emergency.

I suggest the phrase "Gembala Gajah" (mahout) because of above reasons.

A part of Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah, the term Penghulu Kuda and Penghulu Gajah also appeared in Hikayat Acheh, they were royal trainer of war horses and elephants in Acheh court.

Well, I only found the term Kuda Tizi Peperangan (swift horse of war) from the letter of Acheh's Sultan and Sultanah, it said that the horse breed was imported from various places, especially middle-east:

...ialah raja yang karunia Allah Ta‘ala mengempukan kuda berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi dan beratus2 kuda tizi peperangan yang seru jenis daripada jenis Arabi dan Rumi dan Turki dan Kuci dan Lahur dan Abaya dan Tongkin dan Gudh

(he is the king granted by God the possession of horses caparisoned in gold studded with jewels and lapis-lazuli and hundreds of swift horses for use in war, of all kinds of stock, Arab and Rumi (Byzantine) and Turkish and Cochin and Lahore and Abaya and Tongkin and Gudh)
Kuda Tizi are maybe Malay Cataphracts, so, keeping Cataphracts will maybe, Easen the work

Cute Wolf

05-05-2010, 10:31

G. Septimus

05-05-2010, 13:07

I never seen such like Melayu Horse Armour in the museum... perhaps you allready see about them?... hmm....

well, Melayu and Javanese nobility are descendants of (ancient Sriwijayan) Saka Rulers afterall...

Not rlly....
But, I think not. Javanese and Malay are too lowly to have heavy armor. And the large Euro Horses, they don't fit in
But about the Silatmen, they do exist.
Back to the cataphracts:
It's a Chronicle, and
"Di lebay-lebayin" namanya juga kisah, fiktif belaka. Masa armor emas, gila aja kalee

Cute Wolf

05-05-2010, 13:26

Not rlly....
But, I think not. Javanese and Malay are too lowly to have heavy armor. And the large Euro Horses, they don't fit in
But about the Silatmen, they do exist.
Back to the cataphracts:
It's a Chronicle, and
"Di lebay-lebayin" namanya juga kisah, fiktif belaka. Masa armor emas, gila aja kalee

please speak english in the forge.... because Jiri, Finn, and Skull won't understood Indo-Malayan

well, it was not a gold armour, it was actually gold-like steel armour coated with brass... but the King's horse in majapahit times DID have the golden Cataphract armour (look about Jayanegara), it wan't a fiction because the Trowulan museum indeed have the golden Cataphract armour....

of course, they are usually steel coated with brass, with some flexible area made of lacquered wood...

Nyz

05-05-2010, 15:14

well, it was not a gold armour, it was actually gold-like steel armour coated with brass... but the King's horse in majapahit times DID have the golden Cataphract armour (look about Jayanegara), it wan't a fiction because the Trowulan museum indeed have the golden Cataphract armour....

of course, they are usually steel coated with brass, with some flexible area made of lacquered wood...

Letters of Acheh's Sultan and Sultanah:

raja yang berzirah suasa, dan berketopong suasa, dan yang bergajah bergading mas, berkumban perak, bergenta suasa, yang berantai suasa;

The king whose coat of mail is of gold alloy, and whose helmet is of gold alloy, and whose elephant has golden tusks, a frontlet of silver, bells of gold alloy, with a chain of gold alloy.

Kuda Tizi are maybe Malay Cataphracts, so, keeping Cataphracts will maybe, Easen the work

I am not sure about Malay Cataphracts, but I never see a Malay Cataphracts, even horse archer was rare.

hey, after watching a NatGeo Doc. Malaysians use Special Warriors: Silat Men to Resist Enemy Invasions maybe it will help as one Special Unit in this mod?

Silat Men were exist in Hikayat, but it rather than a military unit, it mentioned Silat Men as master of martial art that educated and trained soldier.

Mahaguru is the word for Silat Master, while the other word for Silat users are Pendekar, Perwira, Kesatria, Pahlawan etc.

Cute Wolf

05-05-2010, 15:58

yeah, I mention that royalty have golden equipments, but as far as evidence can be prooved on more common noble soldiers, they only wears steel plate coated with brass. (seperti contoh armor jawa yang ada di museum geologi)

Nyz

05-05-2010, 16:57

Well, golds, elephants and horses were the symbols of wealth for the royals and nobles. BTW, if the translation process for unit is finished, can I move on to translate Military Industrial Complex and civilian buildings?

Cute Wolf

05-05-2010, 17:29

proceed,

we'll have:

5 level of city, while the biggest will be named to just "important city" because of the population problem (24000 men is just a city's size in this era, maybe even it will means only "trained men" to act as sources of military units)
a) perkampungan ( vanilla village level)
b) desa kecil (vanilla town)
c) desa (vanilla large town)
d) kecamatan / equivalent (vanilla minor city)
e) kota (vanilla large city)
f) kota penting (vanilla huge city)

walls will be exspensive, and that will be only 3 level of them
a) wooden palisades
b) wooden wall
c) masonry wall

4 level of factional barracks
5 level of regional barracks
4 level of gunpowder and artillery (double as european's factional) barracks
5 level of Masjid or Church
5 level of temples, for some gods... (planned : Siwa, Wisnu, Brahma, Buddha, Kali/Nyi Roro Kidul (javanese only), Sunda Wiwitan (pajajaran only), Manjushri (south sumateran only), and perhaps nothing extra for the aceh and melaka...
3 level of european styled military academy
3 level of Turkish styled military academy
and perhaps more on the unused buildings slots (maybe we'll think about this later)

Nyz

05-05-2010, 20:09

5 level of city, while the biggest will be named to just "important city" because of the population problem (24000 men is just a city's size in this era, maybe even it will means only "trained men" to act as sources of military units)

Well, RTW engine just defined huge city like that.

a) perkampungan ( vanilla village level) : Dusun
b) desa kecil (vanilla town) : Kampung
c) desa (vanilla large town) : Desa
d) kecamatan / equivalent (vanilla minor city) : Pekan
e) kota (vanilla large city) : Kota
f) kota penting (vanilla huge city) : Bandar - the word Bandar had appeared in Hikayat Hang Tuah and Bustanul Salatin, (Acheh was called Bandar Acheh Darussalam, and Dar es-Salam {Zanzibar, Tanzania} also called Bandar)

In Hikayat, very huge city like Mecca and Istanbul was called Negeri Mekah dan Negeri Istanbul.

hmmm, agree?

a) wooden palisades : Pagar
b) wooden wall : Dinding / Dinding Kayu
c) masonry wall : Tembok / Tembok Batu

Can add 1 more?: Kota Parit (moat)

5 level of Masjid (hmmm, are they really 5 level?)
Wakaf<Musolla<Surau<Masjid<Masjid Raya / Masjid Agung

3 level of Turkish styled military academy
Pondok / Pesantren / Markaz < Madrasah < Maahad (like Maahad Baitul Makdis in Acheh)

Other buildings like law building / policy (Pondok Kawalan, Menara Tinjau, Qanun), Happiness (Sepak raga, Sabung Ayam, Pulau Perburuan [game island], Balai Gendang [music hall], Taman Penglipurlara [royal garden]), public health (Pawang [healer], Panca Persada [royal bath house]), market (gerai [trader], pasar [market], gedung [supermarket], kampung saudagar [merchant quater]), agriculture (kebun, sawah ladang, terusan), port (pengkalan, pelabuhan) etc.

Cute Wolf

05-06-2010, 07:05

maybe I should start sketching the units lists again...

Nyz

05-06-2010, 09:39

factional barracks:

Balai Tetangga (Station of the neighborhood) < Balai Penghulu (Station of the magistrate) < Balai Temenggung (Station of the Inspector-General of Police) < Balai Pedang Laksamana (Armory of the Admiral) < Balai Pedang Istana (Armory of the Palace)

Regional barracks:

Gelanggang Silat Kampung (Muster-field of the village) < Gelanggang Prajurit (Muster-field of the soldiers) < Gelanggang Pendekar (Musterfield of the warriors) < Gelanggang Perwira (Muster-field of the heroes) < Gelanggang Istana (Muster-field of the palace)

gunpowder and artillery barracks:

Tukang Penuang Bedil (Gunsmith) < Padang Tembak (Shooting Range) < Balai Istinggar (Armory of the gun) < Pembuat Meriam (Cannon maker)

plutoboyz

05-06-2010, 10:48

I never seen such like Melayu Horse Armour in the museum... perhaps you allready see about them?... hmm....

well, Melayu and Javanese nobility are descendants of (ancient Sriwijayan) Saka Rulers afterall...

actually not all Javanese Royal families are descendant of Indo-Saka. Majapahit Family are descendant of Sunda Family. Sunda from Tarumanagara,Tarumanagara from Salakanagara and Salakanagara from Salankayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salankayana)

Nyz

05-06-2010, 10:55

Well, some historian said Kerajaan Kedah Tua and Gangga Negara founded by Kambuja Mahajanapada royal families.

Cute Wolf

05-06-2010, 11:09

actually not all Javanese Royal families are descendant of Indo-Saka. Majapahit Family are descendant of Sunda Family. Sunda from Tarumanagara,Tarumanagara from Salakanagara and Salakanagara from Salankayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salankayana)

but Majapahit sources claim they are direct descendants of Singosari, which in turns out paternally, Ken Arok was actually grandchild of former Raja Jenggala, which in turns -> Airlangga -> Mataram Hindu -> Dinasti Samaratungga -> Sriwijaya -> Penyerbuan Ajisaka ke Jawadwipa / Medang Kamulan (sumatera dan Jawa)....

if we look further, Aji Saka's father was named Rudrosena.... which very2 coincidental with Rudhrasena line of the Saka kingdoms in India... and Never forget that the story of ancient "javanese kingdoms long time ago" taken on place of Nagara Saka, Nagara Daha, Nagara Yina, and Nagara Sabrang (could be translated into Saka, Daha, Yuezhi?, and Sauromatae)

plutoboyz

05-06-2010, 11:41

but Majapahit sources claim they are direct descendants of Singosari, which in turns out paternally, Ken Arok was actually grandchild of former Raja Jenggala, which in turns -> Airlangga -> Mataram Hindu -> Dinasti Samaratungga -> Sriwijaya -> Penyerbuan Ajisaka ke Jawadwipa / Medang Kamulan (sumatera dan Jawa)....

if we look further, Aji Saka's father was named Rudrosena.... which very2 coincidental with Rudhrasena line of the Saka kingdoms in India... and Never forget that the story of ancient "javanese kingdoms long time ago" taken on place of Nagara Saka, Nagara Daha, Nagara Yina, and Nagara Sabrang (could be translated into Saka, Daha, Yuezhi?, and Sauromatae)

from the most authentic manuscript in Indonesia, Naskah Wangsakerta:

...Menurut Pustaka Rajyarajya i Bhumi Nusantara, Raden Wijaya adalah putra pasangan Rakeyan Jayadarma dan Dyah Lembu Tal. Ayahnya adalah putra Prabu Guru Darmasiksa, raja Kerajaan Sunda Galuh, sedangkan ibunya adalah putri Mahisa Campaka dari Kerajaan Singhasari. Setelah Rakeyan Jayadarma tewas diracun musuhnya, Lembu Tal pulang ke Singhasari membawa serta Wijaya. Dengan demikian, Raden Wijaya merupakan perpaduan darah Sunda dan Jawa....

Cute Wolf

05-06-2010, 11:57

from the most authentic manuscript in Indonesia, Naskah Wangsakerta:

...Menurut Pustaka Rajyarajya i Bhumi Nusantara, Raden Wijaya adalah putra pasangan Rakeyan Jayadarma dan Dyah Lembu Tal. Ayahnya adalah putra Prabu Guru Darmasiksa, raja Kerajaan Sunda Galuh, sedangkan ibunya adalah putri Mahisa Campaka dari Kerajaan Singhasari. Setelah Rakeyan Jayadarma tewas diracun musuhnya, Lembu Tal pulang ke Singhasari membawa serta Wijaya. Dengan demikian, Raden Wijaya merupakan perpaduan darah Sunda dan Jawa....

wait... it was bit contrary then... I post some excerpts from Babad tanah jawi

05 Pérangan Kang Kapisan
Bab 5
Jumenengé Kartanagara ing Tumapel
(1268 - 1292)

Ratu Singasari kang Kaping V, jumeneng mekasi. Sasédané Syri Wisynuwardhana pangéran pati jumeneng Nata, ajejuluk Prabu Kartanagara.
Sang Prabu manggalih marang kawruh kagunan, lan kasusastran, lan iya manggalih marang undhaking jajahan, nanging kurang ngatos atos, lan kersa ngunjuk nganti dadi wuru.
Ana nayakaning praja aran Banyak Widhe utama Arya Wiraraja, tepung becik lan Jayakatwang, adipati ing Daha.
Satriya iku ora sungkem marang ratuné, malah wis sekuthon karo Jayakatwang, arep mbaléla.
Dumadakan ana punggawa kang matur prakara iku, nanging Sang Prabu ora menggalih, Wiraraja malah diangkat dadi adipati ana ing Madura.

Pepatihe Sang Nata aran Raganatha rumeksa banget marang ratuné, nganti sok wani ngaturi pènget marang Sang Prabu ing bab kang ora bener, nanging Sang Prabu ora rena ing galih, ora nimbangi rumeksaning patih setya iku, malah banjur milih patih liya kang bisa ngladèni karsané.
Patih wredha diundur, winisuda dadi: nayaka pradata, dadi wis ora campur karo prakara pangrèh praja.
Patih anyar senengé mung ngalem marang ratuné lan ngladosi unjuk unjukan.

Ana utusan saka ratu agung ing nagara Cina (Chubilai) dhawuh supaya Prabu Kartanagara nyalirani dhéwé utawa wakilsuwana marang nagara Cina perlu caos bekti (tahun 1289).
Sang Prabu duka banget. Bathuking Cina utusan digambari pasemon kang ora apik, nelakaké dukané Sang Prabu.
Bareng tekan ing nagara Cina patrape ratu Jawa kang mangkono iku mau njalari dukané ratu binathara ing Cina,
Ing tahun1292 ana prajurit gedhé saka ing Cina arep ngukum ing kuwanéné wong Jawa.
Wiraraja sasuwéné ana ing Madura isih ngrungok ngrungokaké apa kang kalakon ana ing Singasari, lan iya weruh uga yèn ing wektu iku prajurit Singasari dilurugaké menyang Sumatra.
Wiraraja ngajani Jayakatwang akon nangguh mbedhah Singasari, mumpung nagara lagi kesisan bala.
Jayakatwang ngleksanani, lan Singasari kelakon bedhah. Ratu lan patihé katungkep ing mungsuh isih terus unjuk unjukan baé (wuru), mulané ora rekasa pinurih sédané.

Radèn Wijaya, wayahè Narasinga, putrané panjenengan makuto Daha, nuli umangsah ngetog kaprawiran mbelani nagara lan ratuné, nanging wis kaslepek karoban wong Daha, mulané banjur kepeksa ngoncati, mung kari nggawa bala 12, genti genti nggéndhong Sang Putri garwané Radèn Wijaya, putrané Prabu Kartanagara.
Lampahè Radèn Wijaya sasentanané nusup angayam alas.
Kalebu wilangan 12 iku ana satriyané loro, putrané Wiraraja, duwè atur marang Gustiné supaya ngungsi menyang Madura.
Sang Pangéran mauné ora karsa, nanging suwé suwé nuruti. Ana ing Madura ditampani kalawan becik.
Rembugé Wiraraja, Radèn Wijaya diaturi suwita menyang Daha. Wiraraja sing arep nglantaraké.
Yèn wis kelakon suwita Radèn Wijaya diaturi nyetitèkaké para punggawa ing Daha, sapa sing kendel utawa jirih, tuhu utawa lamis.
Yèn wis antara suwé diaturi nyuwun tanah tanah Trik, dibabada banjur dienggonana.
Radèn Wijaya nurut ing pitudhuh, lan iya kelakon suwita ing Daha.
Kacarita pasuwitané kanggep banget, amarga saka pinteré nuju karsa, lan saka pinteré olah gegaman; wong sa Daha ora ana sing bisa ngalahaké.
Kabèh piwulangé Wiraraja ditindakaké, dilalah Sang Prabu teka dhangan baé, malah bareng tanah Trik wis dibabad, Radèn Wijaya nyuwun manggon ing kono iya dililani.
Kacarita nalika babade tanah Trik mau, ana wong kang methik woh maja dipangan, nanging rasané pait. Awit saka iku désa ingkono mau banjur dijenengaké Majapait.
Bareng Radèn Wijaya wis manggon ing Majapait, rumangsa wis wayahè tata tata males ukum, ngrusak kraton Daha, ananging Wiraraja akon sabar dhisik, awit isih ngenteni prajurit saka nagara Cina kang arep ngukum wong Singasari.
Karepe Wiraraja arep ngréwangi Cina baé dhisik, besuké arep mbalik mungsuh Cina. Wiraraja banjur boyong sakulawargané lan saprajurite menyang Majapait ngumpul dadi siji karo Radèn Wijaya.

Raden wijaya was the son of Daha (jenggala) line

plutoboyz

05-06-2010, 13:51

wait... it was bit contrary then... I post some excerpts from Babad tanah jawi

Raden wijaya was the son of Daha (jenggala) line

I prefer Wangsakerta. its written by several historian from different background. and from almighty Wiki:

...Antara lain ahli sejarah HJ de Graaf. Menurutnya apa yang tertulis di Babad Tanah Jawi dapat dipercaya, khususnya cerita tentang peristiwa tahun 1600 sampai zaman Kartasura di abad 18. Demikian juga dengan peristiwa sejak tahun 1580 yang mengulas tentang kerajaan Pajang. Namun, untuk cerita selepas era itu, de Graaf tidak berani menyebutnya sebagai data sejarah: terlalu sarat campuran mitologi, kosmologi, dan dongeng...

while, Wangsakerta Manuscript

terlalu historis, isinya tidak umum sebagaimana naskah-naskah sezaman (babad, kidung, tambo, hikayat);

plutoboyz

05-06-2010, 14:58

Nyz

05-06-2010, 18:17

5 levels of temple:

I found that these words are for temple: Rumah Berhala, Kuil, Candi, Wat (Siamese style Buddhist Temple), Huna, Pura, tokong, Kelenteng, while pagoda is not originally Malay word.

5 levels of church:

I suggest that we translated these words into Portuguese and Dutch: Monastery, Abbey, Chapel, Church, Cathedral

Cute Wolf

05-07-2010, 04:00

I prefer Wangsakerta. its written by several historian from different background. and from almighty Wiki:

while, Wangsakerta Manuscript

hmm.... so, let's not talk about Raden Wijaya's true paternity then :grin: ... I'm affraid if we discuss about this to much, we'll reveal ancient conspiracy theory and twisted fate of the kingdoms :wink:
( even maybe he's an illegitimate child or love child :oops: :wall: )

Back to the nobility then, it was clearly written that Javanese Nobility have some major noble houses, and Raden wijaya are from makuto daha (house of Daha - pretty much Jenggala and Singosari nobles comes from here, including Ken Arok), and his mother was from Singosari lines too.

Nyz

05-07-2010, 06:37

Sea Warriors: (using the romano_british faction's unique traits in BI!)
12. Bajak Laut / Sea Warriors (yes, the mallacan straits, sumatran coasts, nusa tenggara, timor, and mollucan spice islands are infested with linked and mutually supporting pirate colonies and sea peoples)

4. As well as romano_british as the Sea Warriors faction, they are the locusts of the sea, and able to mount some serious challanges on lands too... they aren't horde factions, but couldn't be eliminated entirely, and can survive without cities.

Are they in this mod? Maybe as faction, maybe as regional troops, maybe as mercenary...

Cute Wolf

05-07-2010, 07:46

Are they in this mod? Maybe as faction, maybe as regional troops, maybe as mercenary...

placeholder for "active rebel" faction, who basically share same rooster as the slave faction

Nyz

05-07-2010, 07:58

placeholder for "active rebel" faction, who basically share same rooster as the slave faction

So 1 faction slot is given to them? OK agreed.

Well, in history, Melaka used them as army. Can they be at least 1 unit, as low class unit, namely Orang Laut / Bajak Laut, and using blowpipe + dart or javelin? hired at least as mercenary...

Cute Wolf

05-07-2010, 08:45

So 1 faction slot is given to them? OK agreed.

Well, in history, Melaka used them as army. Can they be at least 1 unit, as low class unit, namely Orang Laut / Bajak Laut, and using blowpipe + dart or javelin? hired at least as mercenary...

javelin yes, blowpipe is not, such missiles are impractical in large scale battles

G. Septimus

05-07-2010, 09:31

So 1 faction slot is given to them? OK agreed.

Well, in history, Melaka used them as army. Can they be at least 1 unit, as low class unit, namely Orang Laut / Bajak Laut, and using blowpipe + dart or javelin? hired at least as mercenary...
nah, RTW does'nt have blowpipe operations................
Javelins work

Nyz

05-07-2010, 09:36

Rahwana

05-08-2010, 15:32

Well, javelin also OK. Bajak Laut also used javelin. Could not ask for more.

ADD: For level of church, I translated these words based on Portuguese Christian structures in Goa, India.

Igreja (Church) < Igreja e Convento (Church and monastery) < Catedral (cathedral) < Basilica (Basilica)

well, I only get 4 levels. Can we add Capela (Chapel) as the smallest one?

ADD: I want to review the translation for Mosque

Musolla (Prayer Enclosure) < Surau (Small Mosque) < Masjid (Mosque) < Masjid Jamek (Congregational Mosque) < Masjid Raya / Masjid Agung (Grand Mosque)

hmm, I think the religious constructins should be going this way (CW forget it :grin:) , don't forget that building namings are cultural thingies, and we'll use cultural names of their own.
- Europeans : Capable to build 5 level of Church, and 4 level of Mosque and Temples, while the Mosque and Temples are ONLY meant to quell up rebelions and public orders, as their FM's are trait protected, so heir FM will remain Christian all the time (we don't hope to see Haji Sander Erades don't you :clown:)
- Javanese & Sundanese : capable to build 5 level of All religious constructions (the sundanese however, may retain faction specific name), their FM will probably convert if placed in regons with another religious structures. You must remember that once time, the Southern Javanese rural areas are predominantly Christian (and now, they still predominantly christian in several rural areas of northern Yogyakarta and southwest central java - but most of them choose to fled to the Netherland when Indonesia was Independent). You also must notice that put aside eastern Indonesian area and North Sumatera Bataks, the most Influential Christianized nobles are South Javanese
- Melayu (Aceh and melaka) - 5 level of Mosque. 4 level of temple, and receive penalty from churches (the player's FM could be converted to christianity if he was exposed too long to christianity (the AI FM will be trait protected), this was done to emulate that Melayu culture was predominantly Islamic, and didn't have significant numbers of Christian influence.
- Melayu-Sumatera / South Sumateran (Sriwijaya & Palembang), 5 level of mosques, 5 level of temples, and 4 level of Church... well, that was almost the same reasons.

plutoboyz

05-08-2010, 16:09

...(we don't hope to see Haji Sander Erades don't you )

Haji=King

why not?:clown:

Rahwana

05-08-2010, 16:21

Haji=King

why not?:clown:

Let's ask Skullheadhq if he want to become a muslim :clown: well, religious sentiments aside, we could see that no Portuguese or Dutch muslim convert took the high office in this period. On the contrary, Christianized nobles do exist in javanese, bataks, and sriwijayan area

plutoboyz

05-08-2010, 16:32

hehehe... just language jokes. Haji mean King

example: Haji Pakuan = King of Pakuan

Nyz

05-08-2010, 16:34

hmm, I think the religious constructins should be going this way (CW forget it :grin:) , don't forget that building namings are cultural thingies, and we'll use cultural names of their own.

That's make my job harder coz I have to translate church and temple names into Malay...:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :furious3:

Rahwana

05-08-2010, 16:40

yeah, but it was the language of later times, right :beam:

Rahwana

05-08-2010, 16:42

That's make my job harder coz I have to translate church and temple names into Malay...:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :furious3:

Melayu GOT NO CHURCH :wink:

maybe you should add some names for "generic" temples coz we will use Temple of Brahma, Wisnu, Siwa, Buddha, Kali, etc

EDIT : or maybe we could include "Atheist" traits that will made someone didn't have any religion? heheheh

plutoboyz

05-08-2010, 16:55

so we have different name for each culture?

darn, I should go buy some dictionary...

Nyz

05-08-2010, 17:00

Well, for temple:

Pura Dewa [Siva] (Shrine of Lord [Siva])< Candi Dewa [Siva] (Temple of Lord [Siva]) < Candi Gedang Dewa [Siva] (Grand Temple of Lord [Siva]) < Candi Agung Dewa [Siva] (Great Temple of Lord [Siva]) < Candi Gunung Dewa [Siva] (Temple mountain of lord [Siva])

For other god, repleace Siva with Brahma, Vishnu, etc

Well, classical Malay for Siva was Sang Sinuhun Wangsa Agung Batara Guru, Brahma (Ganeshka Putra Sri Batara Narada), and Vishnu (Batara Vishnu)

For Buddha: Some modification. I'll post later.

so we have different name for each culture?

darn, I should go buy some dictionary...

Cannot use Google translator? you are very fond of it....:laugh4:

plutoboyz

05-08-2010, 17:23

...
Cannot use Google translator? you are very fond of it....:laugh4:

if Sunda Kuna included, I'll use it!

Rahwana

05-08-2010, 17:30

lol, sunda kuna translator....

time to back to my work island... the ship will come soon enough...

Nyz

05-08-2010, 17:52

hehehe... just language jokes. Haji mean King

example: Haji Pakuan = King of Pakuan

yeah, but it was the language of later times, right :beam:

Well, Srivijaya's inscription of Telaga Batu also stated Haji as king...

Cute Wolf

05-09-2010, 06:04

Well, Srivijaya's inscription of Telaga Batu also stated Haji as king...

king of Islam domonated areas, to be precise

jirisys

05-09-2010, 06:44

Melayu GOT NO CHURCH :wink:

maybe you should add some names for "generic" temples coz we will use Temple of Brahma, Wisnu, Siwa, Buddha, Kali, etc

EDIT : or maybe we could include "Atheist" traits that will made someone didn't have any religion? heheheh

I believe the "Rational Beliefs" trait is the closest to it (at least in EB) but it would be good to have an "Atheist" trait... -1 influence, +3 management, +1 command, +3 command when attacking theists, +5 Law, -3 Unrest, +3 morality of troops, -1 morale of troops

~Jirisys (too many effects? think again!:clown:)

Cute Wolf

05-09-2010, 07:17

I believe the "Rational Beliefs" trait is the closest to it (at least in EB) but it would be good to have an "Atheist" trait... -1 influence, +3 management, +1 command, +3 command when attacking theists, +5 Law, -3 Unrest, -1 morality of troops

~Jirisys (too many effects? think again!:clown:)

your troops will have much time enjoying themself in war-rape then :grin:
EDIT: I suggest the Atheist traits to have -1 infulence, +2 management, -1 morale to troops, +1 command against native factions

Nyz

05-10-2010, 12:04

Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot

I have found the word for Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) in Sejarah Melayu = Langlang Laut (Shore patrolmen), while for Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak), just named it Hulubalang

ADD: Acheh called themselves as Kesultanan Aceh Darussalam or Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam or Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam?

jirisys

05-10-2010, 15:42

your troops will have much time enjoying themself in war-rape then :grin:
EDIT: I suggest the Atheist traits to have -1 infulence, +2 management, -1 morale to troops, +1 command against native factions

LMFAO it was +3 morality (if on MTW it should be -3 Dread) and -1 morale :grin:

~Jirisys (that has a new meaning for "taking on" your enemy)

plutoboyz

05-11-2010, 11:40

after reasearching for a while, here is building translation for Sunda.

City
a) *Dusun ( vanilla village level)
b) Kampung (vanilla town)
c) Lembur (vanilla large town)
d) Dayeuh (vanilla minor city)
e) Dayeuhan (vanilla large city)
f) Nagara (vanilla huge city) it also means polis

walls.
a) wooden palisades=>*Pager
b) wooden wall=>Kuta
c) masonry wall=>*Témbok

Factional Barracks=Ksatryaan
Regional Barrack=Ksatryaan Dayeuh
European Barrack=Kasatryaan Éropah

Masjid or Church; will be named by present Sundanese and loanword. no archaic words for it.
Mosque:
Musola>Masigit Leutik>Masigit>Masigit Ageung
Church:
Kapél>Goléjra Leutik>Goléjra>Goléjra Ageung
temples:
Kabuyutan Jati Sunda

hmm... am I missing something?

*) Temporary word till I found something more archaic.

plutoboyz

05-11-2010, 11:57

ADD: Acheh called themselves as Kesultanan Aceh Darussalam or Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam or Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam?

Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam

Nyz

05-11-2010, 13:40

Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam

I vote for ya... for the usage in this mod...

ADD: For Melaka FM that existed in 1511, I have been post that at discussion thread.

For nobles:

a) Bendahara Paduka Tuan
office: prime minister
age: very old / venerable

b) Laksamana Hang Nadim
office: Admiral
age: just coming of age/ just married
He was commanding 300 boats of Langlang Laut troops patrolling Melakan shore during the battle with Portuguesa.

c) Temenggung Seri Udani
Office: Inspector-general of police

d) Tun Indera Segara

e) Tun Salehu'd-din

f) Lamat Gagah
(Bendahara Paduka Tuan bodyguard)

Setia Raja
Office: Batin /Orang Laut Chieftain of Kelang

Raja Negara
Office: Batin /Orang Laut Chieftain of Singapore

plutoboyz

05-11-2010, 15:01

after reasearching for a while, here is building translation for Sunda.

City
a) Kampung ( vanilla village level)
b) Lembur (vanilla town)
c) Kitha (vanilla large town)
d) Dayeuh (vanilla minor city)
e) Dayeuhan (vanilla large city)
f) Nagara (vanilla huge city) it also means polis

walls.
a) wooden palisades=>*Pager
b) wooden wall=>*Témbok
c) masonry wall=>Kuta

Factional Barracks=Ksatryaan
Regional Barrack=Ksatryaan Dayeuh
European Barrack=Kasatryaan Éropah

Masjid or Church; will be named by present Sundanese and loanword. no archaic words for it.
Mosque:
Musola>Masigit Leutik>Masigit>Masigit Ageung
Church:
Kapél>Goléjra Leutik>Goléjra>Goléjra Ageung
temples:
Kabuyutan Jati Sunda(law)

hmm... am I missing something?

*) Temporary word till I found something more archaic.

Edited

Cute Wolf

05-12-2010, 13:16

I want to ask Tosa to made a subforum for our mod...

plutoboyz

05-12-2010, 13:22

I want to ask Tosa to made a subforum for our mod...

yay! great.

Skullheadhq

05-12-2010, 15:24

Haven't been here for some time, I see you did every symbol in my VOC style :D

Nyz

05-12-2010, 21:32

Kabare? Wes mangan?

For European barrack (4 levels): Logically they will used classical loanwords of Europe in Malay:

Sekolah Soldadu Kapitan (Soldier school of the captain) < Sekolah Soldadu Jenderal (Soldier school of the General) < Sekolah Soldadu Gabernador (soldier school of the governor) < sekolah Soldadu Wizurai (Soldier school of the viceroy)

I suggest the word sekolah (school) because it is the loanword from Portuguesa: Escola (and definitely the loanword from Greek: Schole). It have been used in Malay literature such as Tuhfat an-Nafis, Syair Sultan Abu Bakar, Syair Sultan Lingga.

And the word soldadu, kapitan, gabernador (see spelling, not gabenor, gabenor is new spelling) jenderal (see spelling, not jeneral, jeneral is new spelling)and wizurai are the loanwords used extensively in Hikayat.

ADD: Buddhist temple:

Stupa Buddha (Buddhist stupa) < Candi Buddha (Buddhist temple) < Candi Buddha dan Vihara (Buddhist temple and monastery) < Candi Maha Buddha dan Vihara (Temple of great Buddha and monastery) < Candi Maha Buddha dan Vihara Agung (Temple of great Buddha and Grand monastery)

ADD: Signature for all faction have been finished and attached at Nusantara Total War group. Feel free to use whichever you all like...and comments are welcomed..

Skullheadhq

05-13-2010, 11:23

What about some textured symbols, like this one:
https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8036/acehf.png

Cute Wolf

05-13-2010, 22:54

BTW, what about this Jawara unit concept (soory if it was a rough pic)..... I think the dual swordsmen animation from some certain mods can be used as reversed grip swordsmen like this... but if the model can't made in reverse grip, then we'll use normal grip :grin:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=3369&pictureid=38416

Nyz

05-14-2010, 05:51

I want to review the translation of cities:

a) vanilla village level : Kampung
b) vanilla town : Desa
c) vanilla large town : Pekan
d) vanilla minor city : Mukim
e) kota (vanilla large city) : Kota
f) vanilla huge city: Bandar

Level of church:

Gereja kampung (village church) < gereja pekan (town church) < gereja daerah (district church) < gereja kota (city church) < gereja negeri (state church)

plutoboyz

05-14-2010, 08:01

Rahwana

05-14-2010, 10:11

Nusantara Online! its makadga(swordsmen)

the concept is ahistorical to me

yupz, maybe they are playing RO too many times, so they made that just like an assassin

Rahwana

05-14-2010, 11:33

and Wolf, please update your unit description...

plutoboyz

05-14-2010, 23:15

yupz, maybe they are playing RO too many times, so they made that just like an assassin

yep, they forgot bracer, armring, sandal and siger. their samping is not like that, it would limit your movement if you wrap it like that, and the necklace, its for noble.

Cute Wolf

05-15-2010, 10:52

btw, I waiting Tosa's reply on my PM.... we'll have our own forum soon, as discussing everything in 2 thread (in forge and in mod discussion), become less handy... and our dev forum in forumotion is for more private discussion

anyway, to stop Romaphiloi sonic from whinning about my works, here's the short descriptions about Javanese soldiers:

Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
short:
Villager force, have no formal training in battle, but their sickles is heavy enough to puncture most armour rather easily, and pissed off peasant mob could be more far more dangerous than real fighting force, depends in the right circumstance or leadership!

Javanese Militia (tombak) = Kroco
short:
Kroco forces are commonly drawn fom peasants and urban poors, given cheap spears and mass produced bamboo shields each. For most of the part, they are only told to march and obey simple orders, as their skill with spears is doubtful, and their courage is only marginally better than untrained peasants.

Javanese Watchmen (archer-golok) = Jogo Karyo
short:
Well armed force of militia, equipped with simple bamboo flatbows, and have some martial training to fought in melee effectively with their golok and bamboo shields. These men are common sights in medieval Javanese army, usually serve as front line light infantry.

Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
short:
These men are flexible line infantry, common rank and file warriors of both Javanese and Sundanese army. They are capable to fight with their tombak spears, and their javelins are handy to soften enemy ranks before the clash.

Javanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Prajurit Pamedhang
short:
Swordsmen are the primary close combat line infantry of the Javanese army. Armed with quality parang longswords, they are capable mount a furious infantry charge to break the enemy line.

Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
short:
Equipped with good quality helmets, quilted leather armour, and trained in archery. These soldiers are best used as archers, but could fight in melee if necessary, thanks to their heavy equipments.

Bintara Pikemen (pike-keris) = Tentoro Tumbak Dowo
short:
Bintara pikemen mostly comes from the ranks of militia, but they are well trained by muslim Chinese advisors. They won't be easy to break, even when largely outnumbered, as long as their bristling walls of pike could take care most of them.

Majapahit Axemen (2handed kapak) = Prajurit Kampak Blambangan
short:
Vicious shock infantry of the Ancient Majapahit army, armed with two handed axe, and paint their body with pattern made of blood. They are expected to charge and break the enemy line with their sheer strength and vicious intimidation.

Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
short:
Arabic troops are no foreigner in the army of the Islamic kingdoms. They are drawn from substantial Arab population, well armoured and equipped in middle eastern style. They are largely disciplined and professional fighting force, as they fought for both common religious cause as well as generous payment.

Javanese "Saka" Heavy Spearmen (overhead tombakkeris) = Pagerwesi
short:
Well armoured heavy infantry, wearing partial plate armour, carying large round shield covered with steel, and armed with exceptional keris-headed tombak spears. These soldiers are best used to fought in very dense formation, capable to grind enemy troops in almost unbreakable wall of steel shields.

Majapahit Armoured Macemen (gada) = Prajurit Godhowesi
short:
Specialist heavy infantry, clad in heavy scale armour, carry large steel covered shield, and armed with godho mace to smash their enemies. These men are de facto cataphracts on foot, and equally capable to break enemy line with a forious charge, or grind enemy troops in very dense formations.

Javanese Knights / Pendekar (2handed keris swords) = Pandhekar
short:
Expert in the field of martial arts, perfected in lifetime training. Pandhekar is easily counted as the best and the most inspiring warriors, as they are often chivalrous warriors, ready to give their life for a good cause. Of course, their large two handed swords are another good reason to respect them.

Bintara Sultan's Chinese Guards (crossbow-scimitar) = Punggawa Cino
short:
These elite soldiers are drawn solely from the ranks of muslim Chinese. Their deeply shared religious passion, coupled with the fact that they are outsider and can't hope to wield the power by themself, made them a respectful, multi purpose elites with their skills in chinese crossbows and scimitars.

Javanese Noble Knights / Satria (keris panjang) = Satriyo
short:
The nobility, who devoted themself in lifetime training of martial arts, are among the most important leading parts of the Javanese army. These men command respect and admiration from their underlings, and given the fact that they are nobles, they also had acess to expensive armoury as well.

Majapahit Royal Shadowguards (overhead tombakkeris) = Bhayangkara
short:
The true elite of Keraton Majapahit, practically fearless, and their martial skills made them command fears in their enemies' hearts. Bhayangkara fought as elite force of guards, capable to grind enemy troops in very dense formations, or spread out and kill multitude of enemies in individual fights.

Javanese Raider-Scouts (cavarchers-cavshortswords) = Telik Sandi
short:
Drawn from the horse owners, Telik Sandi are primarily employed for scout and harassment duties. In the battlefield, it was them who first checked the enemy position, harass and pick off important enemy units and officers with their bows, kill separated and weakned enemy troops, and chase off routers.

Javanese-Sriwj Feudal Cavalry (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Prajurit Tumpak Jaran
short:
Traditionally better segment of Javanese file soldiers, reasonably well armoured, and capable in both role as horse archers and heavy close combat cavalry. These men are important offensive parts of Majapahit-Sriwijayan army.

Javanese Noble Cataphract (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Turanggawesi
short:
Wearing heavy scale armour, frightening war masks, and riding half armoured horses, Turanggawesi are nobles, they fought as cataphract archers, expected to soften enemy ranks with their arrows, and closing in and hack through the enemy line afterwards. They are expected to deal the deciding blows in the battle.

Javanese Cataphract Lancers (lancers-cavlswords) = Satriyo Turanggawesi
short:
Close combat cataphracts, clad in beautiful, yet exceptionally sturdy armour, befitting the heirs of ancient Indo-Saka cataphracts. These men wear frightening war masks to intimmidate enemy troops, and could be expected to break most enemy battle line rather easily, deciding the fate of most battles.

Javanese Elite Cataphracts (cavarchers-lancers) = Satriyo Priyayi
short:
The royal troops of Javanese kingdoms, clad in beautiful, yet exceptionally sturdy armour, with frightening war masks. Carrying bows to kill the enemies from afar, and keris headed lance, to break enemy line into submission, as well as fight in melee. As cataphract, they are expected to deal the deciding blows.

Javanese Chariots (chariot-archers) = Kreto Tempur
short:
Chariots may be an outdated war machine, but blade covered chariots, coupled with archers to pick the enemies from afar, is still the best choice to cut and break enemy cavalry forces, as well as softening enemy line before the chariot charges afterwards.

Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
short:
Abundance of elephants that was used in daily economic activities, means that they could be drafted into military usage too. These men and beasts are actually not a real soldiers, as the elephants are more comfortable to pulling logs and tear down woods, rather than trampling humans and ramming gates.

Javanese Armoured War Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Gajah Wesi
short:
Real war elephants are rarity in Javanese land, but when it was really required, will come with the best things available to protect the elephants, because properly trained war elephants are both time consuming to train and exspensive. A heavy armour, made of steel scales, seems worth to protect the beast!