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Paladin
09-09-2002, 03:18
I've been trying to modify the game so that it can be closer to being historically accurate, so I did a search on the internet and found this map of Europe in 1092 A.D.

http://www.croatianmall.com/lupic/belmonte/middle_ages/a1092eu.gif

I modified the Early Period to correspond with the information on the above map. This new Early Period is the most accurate map in MTW.

You can get a copy of the new Early Period here:

http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip

Just right click and save it to desktop then unzip and put the .txt file into C:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War\campmap\startpos). Be sure to rename the original "Early.txt" file to something else.

Following are the changes I made:

- Hungary, Novgorod, Sicilian, and Aragonese factions are now playable.

- Change date to 1092 A.D.

- The Turkish Faction has been given: Nicea, Trebizond, Rum, Georgia, Anatolia, Edessa, Armenia, Syria, Antioch, Tripoli, and Palestine.

- Added Fort in Nicaea.

- The Turkish Faction has the following troops in the respective provinces:

ANATOLIA - Horse Archers 40
ANATOLIA - Spearmen 100
NICAEA - Horse Archers 40
NICAEA - Spearmen 100
TREBIZOND - Spearmen 100
GEORGIA - Horse Archers 40
GEORGIA - Spearmen 100

- "Lesser Armenia" is rebel controlled with the following units:

Horse Archers 40
Spearmen 100

- Changed Libya (Cyrenacia) and Tunisia to rebel (Hammadids-Zirrids) controlled.

- Added the following units to Algeria:
Berber Camel 40
Desert Archers 60
Berber Camel 40

- Added Horse Guild, Cathedral, Monastery, Reliquary, Royal Palace, and Merchant to Constantinople. (Historically, St. Sofia had been around for hundreds of years and was the greatest cathedral of its' age. Not including it would be a huge breach of historical fact.)

- Upgraded Citadel to Fortress in Constantinople.

- Added the following units to Constantinople:
Spearmen 100
Spearmen 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
NapthaThrowers 12
NapthaThrowers 12
TrebizondArchers 60
TrebizondArchers 60
AlanMercenaryCavalry 40
Kataphraktoi 80
FireGalley 1
FireGalley 1 (The Byzantines had an extensive fleet which is not represented in the original "Early Period."

- Changed control of Crimea to Byzantines.

- Added Spearmen 100 to Crimea

- Added a port and castle to Crimea.

- Changed control of Serbia to Byzantines.

- Added the following units to Serbia:
Spearmen 100
ByzantineInfantry 100

- Added castles to Crete, Rhodes, Cyprus, and Malta. (Historically, all four had castles and Malta's castle was very strong.)

- Changed Portugal to Almohad ownership. (Historically, the Almohads controlled 3/4 of Portugal. However, Portugal is Catholic religion and culture.)

- Added the following units to Portugal:
Desert Archers 60
Berber Camel 40

- Added castle to Trebizond. (Historically, the Byzantines held on to the castle while the Turks held the province. There's no way that I know of to split up control so I opted to include a castle but give nominal control of the province to the Turks.)

- Changed Burgundy and Provence to Burgundinian (rebel) control. (Historically, Burgundy was a seperate nation for many years and wasn't consumed by the HRE until the mid-1200's)

- Added troops originally in Burgundy and Provence into Swabia and Tyrolia, respectively.

- Added a port in Wessex and Normandy (Both provinces had ports by that time.)

- Changed control of Anjou and Aquitaine to French control. (Again, historically, the French had control of these areas by 1092)

- Added Archers 60 and Spearmen 100 to Aquitaine.

- Added Peasants 100 and Archers 60 to Anjou.

- "Improved Farmland" and "Horse Farmer" for Wessex.

- Moved all English units previously in Anjou and Aquitaine into Normandy.

- Increased income of Normandy to 430

- Increased income of Wessex to 450

- Increased income of Mercia to 320

- Increased income of Northumbria to 290

- Changed control of "The Papal States" province to Italy while Rome remains in the Papist hands.

- Papist leader is moved to Rome.

- Moved units from "The Papal States" to Rome.

- Put Naples under Sicilian Rule.

- Add Spearmen 100 to Naples.

- Added (1) Galley to Venice.


** My thanks to Nicephorus Phocas for his help on the Byzantine parts of this project. **

Interesting historical note on Italy: There was no Italy until the 1800's. The faction referred to as Italy in the game is historically merely a geographical region and nothing more. The area was controlled by a number of City-States with no central authority.

During the 11th century an elaborate pattern of communal government began to evolve under the leadership of a burgher class grown wealthy in trade, banking, and such industries as woolen textiles. Many cities--especially FLORENCE, GENOA, PISA, MILAN, and VENICE--became powerful and independent City-States. Resisting the efforts of both the old landed nobles and the emperors to control them, these COMMUNES hastened the end of feudalism in northern Italy and spawned deeply rooted identification with the city as opposed to the larger region or country. The cities were often troubled by violent and divisive rivalries among their citizens, the most famous being the papal-imperial struggle--between the GUELPHS AND GHIBELLINES, the supporters respectively of the popes and the emperors.

So, really, Italy should not be a power at all but instead should be broken up into a number of City-States. I fought the temptation to make the Italian player a one province empire with Venice as the sole playable province and then Genoa, Tuscany, Milan, Corsica, Sardinia, and the Papal States province, as all rebels. But since that would obviously make playing the Italian player almost impossible, I left the Italian states as one empire.

Please check this early campaign out and post your comments. Thank you.

giskard
09-09-2002, 21:57
Good work mate.

The map will be handy too.

Take a look at this thread, it shows some examples on how to make a campaign that doesnt have to overwrite the original files. It should help you out.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000590.html

The top of the file is what you need to look at.

Giskard

dagdriver
09-10-2002, 13:56
I think theres a small problem with the map (from the link)
Sweden are listed, but in fact "Sweden" as a kingdom was not really established in 1092a.d. I THINK maybe only the name "Sweden" is wrong, as the region as a hole was named "Sweden" late 1100 / early 1200.... (again I'm not shure http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif )

Paladin
09-10-2002, 21:52
giskard:

Thanks for the comments and the link. The info is great. Only one thing though: You mentioned that the initial "culture" of a province has to be the same as the starting faction owning that province. In the "1092Early", I gave Portugal to the Almohads but maintained that province as a "Catholic culture".

Now, I haven't had any problems with that except for the fact that Portugal tends to rebel quickly under Almohad rule, unless of course you properly garrison it, as with any recently conquered province.

Have you seen problems with that type of set-up?

Thoughts?

dagdriver:

Quote Sweden are listed, but in fact "Sweden" as a kingdom was not really established in 1092a.d. I THINK maybe only the name "Sweden" is wrong, as the region as a hole was named "Sweden" late 1100 / early 1200.... (again I'm not shure )[/QUOTE]

I did some research and found that Sweden was just basically a collection of tribes and about 1000 A.D., the various tribes were coming together and forming one big province but not much more, i.e. not a unified military power.

So the game correctly represents Sweden as a province and not a faction of any type.

Here's a quick historical note I found regarding Sweden on the internet:

"In about the year 1000, the provinces of Sweden combined to form one country. In was around this time, too, that Sweden became Christianized, although the pagan Nordic religion was still around for another century or so." Ref: http://www.photo.net/sweden/history

Thank you for your comments.

giskard
09-11-2002, 03:32
Interesting data Paladlin.

Yes I have, culture v religion has caused me a lot of wrong unit for culture errors. Perhaps it's not the region but the culture of the occupying force that matters when placing units.

I'll run some tests on your theory when i start on my next campaign. I will modify the doc as soon I know for sure.

Thanks mate http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Giskard

Paladin
09-11-2002, 21:00
Excellent, thank you again.

spmetla
09-13-2002, 11:44
Erasing the past...

Paladin
09-13-2002, 18:47
Really? Then feel free to post them.

DarknScaly
09-13-2002, 21:03
http://salve5.salve.edu/~romanemp/Index.htm

Paladin
09-14-2002, 01:37
Thanks for the link. Nice maps. Too bad they're not in English. And, what the hell is the "Roman Sultanate"?

spmetla
09-14-2002, 07:52
Erasing the past...

Paladin
09-14-2002, 10:07
Thanks for the maps. I was actually aware of that site but I was trying to get as close to 1087 as possible. That's why I chose the map of 1092.

Anyone interested in seeing an Early that starts at 1100 using the maps on that page?

DarthPharazon
09-14-2002, 11:54
what the hell is the "Roman Sultanate"?

Why .. The Sultanate of Rome (or Rum)! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

More seriously, wasn't it the Seljuk Turks? Or (some of) their immediate sucessors? I don't know, but the name may be equivalent to "Roman (Moslem) Empire" or some such. If you look at later maps you see "Ottoman Sultanate of Rome". The Turks had some fascination with the Empire, adn I think considered themselves heirs to it.

The title is not on the 1500 map. So something happened to cause the Ottomans to stop using it. Or one would surmise. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

spmetla
09-14-2002, 14:18
Erasing the past...

The Sultan
09-14-2002, 15:38
Quote:
"I can't really understand why CA picked 1087 as a starting year. It's such a blah year,"

I'm surprised they didn't start it off in 1066 when naughty Duke William knocked off Harold the Second, and won the throne of England in the process http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Meanwhile I really enjoyed playing Paladin's mod - haven't quite finished due to real-world requirements, I particulary enjoyed crushing the Turks but am still working on those pesky eqyptians

Paladin
09-14-2002, 20:40
The Sultan:

Great, I'm glad you're enjoying it. Have you found any bugs associated with that scenario? Please let me know. Thank you.

Grifman
09-15-2002, 05:37
CA picked 1087 because the first crusade was launched in the soon after that Emperor Alexius of Byzantium requested assistance from the West and the first crusade appeared soon after that. Starting 1100 would be too late.

Grifman

spmetla
09-15-2002, 08:27
Erasing the past...

Warriorofmight
09-15-2002, 23:05
i think that you have to add castles or fortress to wessex(London) idle france(paris) and the two wooden castles of the hoily roman empire of german nations must be fortrees two(aachen+ köln this are the german names for the citys)

Paladin
09-17-2002, 00:55
Quote Originally posted by Warriorofmight:
i think that you have to add castles or fortress to wessex(London) idle france(paris) and the two wooden castles of the hoily roman empire of german nations must be fortrees two(aachen+ köln this are the german names for the citys)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the ideas. Can you please provide me with support references for those?



------------------
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. - Marin County newspaper's TV listing for The Wizard of Oz

Warriorofmight
09-17-2002, 18:30
i can give you more informations about the european countries especialy from germany, because iam a german. i saxon must be a castle because the order of the teutonic knights had got there main base

Paladin
09-17-2002, 21:21
OK, but keep in mind that I need evidence of castles shortly before or at the year 1092. The teutonic knights didn't locate to Germany until the 1200's so starting a castle there simply for those knights would not be accurate for 1092.

I would appreciate it though if you could give me some sources, i.e. website links, on any areas that you think should have castles that would have existed around 1092. Thank you in advance.

spmetla
09-18-2002, 01:39
Erasing the past...

Paladin
09-18-2002, 14:56
That sounds great but is it historically accurate?

Warriorofmight
09-18-2002, 21:07
sorry if forgot this
i can't give you any adress i got all my knowlege from books

spmetla
09-19-2002, 12:59
Erasing the past...

Paladin
09-20-2002, 20:39
Warriorofmight:

Quote sorry if forgot this
i can't give you any adress i got all my knowlege from books[/QUOTE]

How dare you use books? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

OK, but can you just tell me then again which provinces should have what and please be sure that they had that particular structure by 1092. Thank you.
IP: Logged


spmetla:

Quote Paladin, I think it is historically accurate if you doubt it you can be a tester for the mod. I am the one with the thread requesting testers and have only reply right now.
So could you

Or not.[/QUOTE]

Sure but I'm in the middle of testing one mod and already promised to test a mod right after this. As soon as I'm done, I would love to test your mod. I'll check back in with you and see if you still need mods at that time.

Warriorofmight
09-20-2002, 21:00
you should give every province a troop of feudal knights, because the knights where the main defence troops of a province in the feudal time.

poland should't get a catsle because the polish civ nver build catsles.

at the beginning the province palästina should be a turkisgh province

The Sultan
09-23-2002, 16:02
Hi Paladin, whilst playing as Scicilians I did notice a small bug crop up with the crusades. I took the small province between spain & france (can't remember what its called) fairly early on and every turn a message dialogue comes up requesting I allow the French Crusade and German Crusade through my land. But then they never went anywhere. It seems that the crusades got 'stuck' in the province. I'm wondering if this is a bug, or if it was the Spanish refusing their right of passage..? Or maybe a bit of both?

The problem went away when I lost the province back to the Spanish in the early 1200's. Oh well...

Paladin
09-24-2002, 06:00
Warriorofmight

Quote you should give every province a troop of feudal knights, because the knights where the main defence troops of a province in the feudal time.[/QUOTE]

OK, let me look into it.


Quote poland should't get a catsle because the polish civ nver build catsles.[/QUOTE]

Poland didn't have one single castle?!! Seriously?


Quote at the beginning the province palästina should be a turkisgh province[/QUOTE]

Yes, I already did that. Please see the map above in my initial post.


The Sultan:

Quote Hi Paladin, whilst playing as Scicilians I did notice a small bug crop up with the crusades. I took the small province between spain & france (can't remember what its called) fairly early on and every turn a message dialogue comes up requesting I allow the French Crusade and German Crusade through my land. But then they never went anywhere. It seems that the crusades got 'stuck' in the province. I'm wondering if this is a bug, or if it was the Spanish refusing their right of passage..? Or maybe a bit of both?
The problem went away when I lost the province back to the Spanish in the early 1200's. Oh well...[/QUOTE]

Good question but I think that it was a bug in the game and not the mod. Sometimes these crusades get weird. I had one crusade go back and forth between two provinces for many years until I realized that it was doing so because it was stripping my armies of men for the purpose of its' crusade.

After I moved all of my troops out of those provinces, the crusade continued on its' way. That may have been what happened to you.

Boleslaw Wrymouth
09-24-2002, 09:56
"poland should't get a catsle because the polish civ nver build catsles."

Huh? I'm not sure what you are talking about. Poland built plenty of castles. There are examples of them all over the country.

http://www.daewoo.com.pl/~dflaszyn/castles2.htm

Just some of them are on this page(Some are much later palaces or castles that were renovated during the Renaissance).

Paladin
09-24-2002, 12:07
Boleslaw Wrymouth, thanks for the info. I think warriorofmight must have been pulling our legs because there's no way Polnad didn't have castles. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The Sultan
09-24-2002, 16:12
Gurk! Another late night, the face in the mirror this morning looked something like a demented panda.
I'm now into the late 1200's with my Sicilians and in order to speed things up a bit I decided to *shock* cheat! Curiously however the .mattesartori. worked, but the .worksundays. didn't - could this be because the Scicilians were not originally meant to be a playable faction?

Once again, probably not a bug with the mod!

Galestrum
09-24-2002, 16:40
hi, great mod, i like the starting positions MUCH better this way, as it is much closer to the truth

a few notes however,

(1) if i remember correctly, the main members of the first crusade were France and the Sicilians, but they do not have a level 2 castle, church, chapter house at start

to make the game mechanics reflect history, it would be nice if you could make the provinces of siciliy and ill de france have all those structures in 1092, so that in 1096, they could launch a crusade if they wanted to follow history, as oppossed to launching one 1112 as the "game mechanics" of building would force it

(2) i dont think it is your fault, but when i tried Aragon last nite, everytime i clicked on the "glorious achievement" or point button on the interface, i froze and later crashed.

This didnt happen with the original start up factions, so im guessing this applies only to the "new" factions, so stay away from this button - unless aragon or myself are the only ones experiencing this problem.

Good job!

Paladin
09-25-2002, 03:37
Galestrum:

Quote hi, great mod, i like the starting positions MUCH better this way, as it is much closer to the truth
a few notes however,

(1) if i remember correctly, the main members of the first crusade were France and the Sicilians, but they do not have a level 2 castle, church, chapter house at start

to make the game mechanics reflect history, it would be nice if you could make the provinces of siciliy and ill de france have all those structures in 1092, so that in 1096, they could launch a crusade if they wanted to follow history, as oppossed to launching one 1112 as the "game mechanics" of building would force it[/QUOTE]

Sicily doesn't have a chapter house even in the Late game so I can't justify putting one in the Early period. But consider Ile de France done. You can download the new one from the same website above using the same link. Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

When you say a Castle 2, do you mean a Keep? Because in the 1092 campaign, both of those provinces have castles at least that high.


Quote (2) i dont think it is your fault, but when i tried Aragon last nite, everytime i clicked on the "glorious achievement" or point button on the interface, i froze and later crashed.

This didnt happen with the original start up factions, so im guessing this applies only to the "new" factions, so stay away from this button - unless aragon or myself are the only ones experiencing this problem.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the original non-player factions might be kind of tricky so please be careful and save every turn.


Quote Good job![/QUOTE]

Thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 09-24-2002).]

dclare4
09-25-2002, 12:11
For me the game doesn't crash but it just doesn't show anything. I guess Aragon/Burgundy/etc - the minor factions turned major - just don't have any glorious achievements programmed.

Gilbert de Clare

Paladin
09-25-2002, 23:24
Any thoughts about eiminating movement between England and France? It seems that the French invade and occupy England with great ease. Any thoughts about seeing that easy movement stopped?

Warriorofmight
09-25-2002, 23:44
yea now the have castles but at the time your mod starts poland was owned by the german empire. they'´ve got a king but he hast to pay money to the germans, because the hre conquered it and i want to sai that there is no castle at the beginning

Boleslaw Wrymouth
09-26-2002, 03:19
Quote Originally posted by Warriorofmight:
yea now the have castles but at the time your mod starts poland was owned by the german empire. they'´ve got a king but he hast to pay money to the germans, because the hre conquered it and i want to sai that there is no castle at the beginning[/QUOTE]


The HRE never conquered Poland. Poland's relationship with the Empire and the Pope was quite complex but at the time that this mod starts the Emperor had allowed the Duke of Bohemia to crown himself King of Bohemia and Poland, although this had little practical effect. Tens years later (after the mods starting date), the new king reasserted Polish sovereignty(Boleslaw Wrymouth http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif) by winning the Battle of Psie Pole (Dog's Field, I love that name) against Henry V and forced Bohemia and the HRE to renounce all claims on Poland.



[This message has been edited by Boleslaw Wrymouth (edited 09-26-2002).]

Paladin
09-26-2002, 03:39
Quote Originally posted by Warriorofmight:
yea now the have castles but at the time your mod starts poland was owned by the german empire. they'´ve got a king but he hast to pay money to the germans, because the hre conquered it and i want to sai that there is no castle at the beginning[/QUOTE]

Every map I have looked at indicates that Poland was not under the HRE and that they were a nation onto themselves. Also, Poland had plenty of castles. If you disagree, I would ask that you please provide a link to the contrary.

I appreciate your feedback.

Boleslaw Wrymouth
09-26-2002, 12:29
Paladin,

The earliest known stone castle in Poland dates from the 10th century and is situated on an island on Lake Lednica. Of course the most common type of castle in the 900's and early 1000's was of the earth and timber kind, but this was typical all over northern Europe (I believe the first stone castle in Britain dates from 1067).

The HRE's attempts to force Poland into vassalage ended in failure which is why maps that indicate political relationships show Poland as an independent realm.

I don't see any reason to change your mod. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Paladin
09-26-2002, 22:07
Quote Originally posted by Boleslaw Wrymouth:
Paladin,

The earliest known stone castle in Poland dates from the 10th century and is situated on an island on Lake Lednica. Of course the most common type of castle in the 900's and early 1000's was of the earth and timber kind, but this was typical all over northern Europe (I believe the first stone castle in Britain dates from 1067).

The HRE's attempts to force Poland into vassalage ended in failure which is why maps that indicate political relationships show Poland as an independent realm.

I don't see any reason to change your mod. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]

OK, great, thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I've made some adjustments since the first upload, including setting up a chapter house in Ile de France so that a Crusade can appear as per history. If you wish to try out the 1092 mod with the changes, please download it again from http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip . Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Lord Krazy
09-27-2002, 05:57
Quote Originally posted by Paladin:
Any thoughts about eiminating movement between England and France? It seems that the French invade and occupy England with great ease. Any thoughts about seeing that easy movement stopped?[/QUOTE]


---------------------------------------------
Ye you could remove England from the game.
Hope this is of some help.

Lord Krazy:-()

Paladin
09-28-2002, 02:25
No, that wasn't helpful but then again I'm sure you knew it wasn't before you said it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Paladin
10-09-2002, 02:02
UPDATE:

As part of the continuing effort for historical accuracy, balance, and playability, I have made some additional changes to the 1092 campaign game. The new file is available at:

http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip

Following are the new changes I made:

- Upgraded Fort to Keep in Wessex.

- Added a Shipwright in Wessex.

- Removed neighbor link between Wessex and Flanders. (It is far too easy for the French to move troops to England when historically the French only were able to mount raiding parties of the English coastline. So in the game, if the French want to invade England, first, they will have to build a fleet and fight it out with the English on the sea then on land.)

- Added (2) Archers 60, Peasants 100, Spearmen 100, and a Barque to Wessex.

Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Thank you.

Warmaker
10-09-2002, 06:26
Will d/l and try it out. Nice to see that stupid link between England and France be removed.

10-09-2002, 07:09
Hi,

I appreciate your hard work. Is there some reason that your early campaign won't work with ECS no agent mod files? When I have his production files installed and your campaign NO campaigns show up at all.

I'd really like to play your mod, but I don't really want to have to deal with the 12 billion agents you have to drive around again.

BTW, is there a file somewhere that explains the layout of crusader units and building files? I've tried loading them up in Works and they're ... Well, they're worse than Diablo 2's files, so far as figuring out what's going on.

Thanks again.

Hasta la VISA,
Or Mastercard,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-09-2002, 18:37
V'ger:

Quote Hi,
I appreciate your hard work. Is there some reason that your early campaign won't work with ECS no agent mod files? When I have his production files installed and your campaign NO campaigns show up at all.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, someone else had said the same thing. I don't what the problem is but I have downloaded the "no agent" mod and I will be working on that feature next because I agree that the spy feature is far too powerful and unhistorical a tool in the game.


Quote BTW, is there a file somewhere that explains the layout of crusader units and building files?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure. I haven't tried looking for them.

Paladin
10-09-2002, 18:45
Warmaker:

Quote Will d/l and try it out.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.


Quote Nice to see that stupid link between England and France be removed.[/QUOTE]

Yes, thank you. I still can't figure out the logic between having that link there in the first place. It's so unhistorical. In every game I have played, because of that link, the French would inevitably roll right into Wessex and onto victory over the English. That did not happen. Other than small raiding parties, the French could never ship over a sizable invasion force. If they want to do it, let them build a damn fleet like everyone else.

(By the way, I still think the British should blow up the damn Chunnel before the freaking EU-bastards use it to invade you. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif )

10-10-2002, 00:06
Hello,

Thanks for your work on the noagent thing. At first, I wanted to be rid of agents because of the nuisance, now I want to get rid of them because using them properly is so unfair to the computer players. I'd rather play on as much of a level field as possible. Sending a dozen spies in after an inquisition to start a revolt is fun the first time, but feels a lot like cheating.


Vaya con gusto,
V'ger gone

barocca
10-10-2002, 00:15
try removing the reliquery and monastery from constantinople
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

(reliquery and monastary do not exist in no agent mod)



[This message has been edited by barocca (edited 10-09-2002).]

10-10-2002, 02:31
Barocca,

AH! THANK you! Geez. Why didn't I think of that?

Hasta la bye-bye,
V'ger gone

10-10-2002, 05:06
Hi,

Well, that only partially solved the problem. I could select the campaign and choose a faction, but after much screen switching (a la the intro screens where the screen switches resolutions several times between intro sections) I found myself staring at the desktop.

Sigh,
V'ger gone

barocca
10-10-2002, 05:44
odd

not having CTD problem's combining ECS noagent and Paladin 1092Early (minus monastery and reliquery)...

[This message has been edited by barocca (edited 10-09-2002).]

10-10-2002, 09:55
Hi,

Well, I'm not having problems now, either. I rebooted and reapplied the noagents and 1097 mod file (that I'd edited to take out the Monastery and Reliquary). No problems. I guess something just got woppyjawed and stayed that way until I rebooted. Thanks for everything, y'all.

Almohads, Turks and Egyptians,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-11-2002, 21:18
UPDATE:

1. I have removed Spies from the game but I don't see a reason why Emmissaries, Assassins, Princesses, Bishops, Arch-Bishops, and Priests shouldn't remain in the game. All are historically accurate. Assassinations did happen and I think the game does a good job with the odds. You can easily protect against Assassins with Border Forts.

2. Secondly, anyone notice that in the "Age of Feudalism" you don't start off with any Feudal Knights? For example, if you play the English, you can't build your first Feudal Knight until 56 years after the game starts!! That means if you're playing the 1087 game, you have to wait until 1143 or, until 1148 if you're playing the 1092 game in order to see your first Feudal Knight!!

Kinda silly, isn't it? Well, I've fixed that by making it possible to build Feudal Knights right away, as is historically accurate. If you can build those types of Knights, you also start off with one unit of Feudal Knights. This one unit represents feudal Knights gathered from throughout the factions' provinces. Then, if you have the Florins, you can start building as many of these "treasury suckers" as you like.

You can download the latest update at: http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip

10-11-2002, 22:13
Hi,

It's not that I have a problem with the computer's use of agents or think they are ahistorical, it's just there are too darn many of them and you can't track their progress well via the menues.

If you could easily sort their menu and tell who was "out of the country" I might put them back in. (Though honestly, they're just too many and you can't stack them and they're just a pain to deal with. My agents, I mean.)

I don't know, maybe I'll put back the religious agents at some point. They're not TOO bad. Though what I'd do about an enemy inquisitor without assassins, I don't know.

Thanks for your update. I'm having a great time with your mod, though I think Tripoli should be given back to the Elmos. It's got that goldmine and, even though it would be slightly ahistorical, I'd like to see the Elmo Hordes again.

In this campaign (I'm Egypt, Hard) I tried making nice with everyone and the Turks allied with me. A little later they attacked. I beat them back, taking Rum, Armenia and Edessa.

They asked for a truce and I granted it. A little later, they asked for alliance and I did that. Heck, they're the only faction I'm allied to. Everyone else broke off when the Turks attacked.

They went to war with the Byz. Those two went hammer and tongs for a while and Turkey had Byz down to 2 provinces, but couldn't take Con. Eventually, Byz recovered and all the Turks own is Anatolia and Greece.

Now I've got the French Avon ladies calling and the Spanish on the way. (I.e. Crusades.) Great fun. Just wish I knew why France has Khazar and the rest of southern Russia except for the Crimea.

Thanks for the fun.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

ICantSpellDawg
10-11-2002, 22:24
paladin, if you make feudal knights in 1082, and you are able to build chapter houses, then you will have templars, hospitallers and teutonic knights on horseback by at least 1090. this didnt happen until at earliest 1119and by then there was only one religious military order - i know this may not matter to you, but as you are looking for historical accuracy, you might want to look into a way of mayking the game unable to build those units until later

Paladin
10-12-2002, 01:33
V'ger:

I'm glad you're having fun with the mod. Thanks for the feedback. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


Quote It's not that I have a problem with the computer's use of agents or think they are ahistorical, it's just there are too darn many of them and you can't track their progress well via the menues.[/QUOTE]

I don't bother keeping track of them. I make them and send them to do their missions and if they get killed, I don't care, I just build some more. They're cheap.


Quote If you could easily sort their menu and tell who was "out of the country" I might put them back in. (Though honestly, they're just too many and you can't stack them and they're just a pain to deal with. My agents, I mean.)[/QUOTE]

I just keep one priest or bishop in each province and then some assassins in strategic locations. That's it.


Quote I'm having a great time with your mod, though I think Tripoli should be given back to the Elmos. It's got that goldmine and, even though it would be slightly ahistorical, I'd like to see the Elmo Hordes again.[/QUOTE]

The Elmos can very easily take that province. Are you finding that they don't? If so, let me know and I'll check to see how I can modify that.

Paladin
10-12-2002, 01:48
TuffStuffMcGruff:

Quote paladin, if you make feudal knights in 1082, and you are able to build chapter houses, then you will have templars, hospitallers and teutonic knights on horseback by at least 1090. this didnt happen until at earliest 1119and by then there was only one religious military order - i know this may not matter to you, but as you are looking for historical accuracy, you might want to look into a way of mayking the game unable to build those units until later[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the feedback.

Actually, the start date for the campaign is 1092, not 1082.

Second, depending on what source you check, the Templars were established as early as 1112 and the Hospitallers as early as 1113.

Third, it takes 4 years to build a church, 4 years to build a chapter house, and 4 years to build a Crusade. That brings you to 1104.

Fourth, it takes a number of years just to reach Palestine from, for example, Wessex, so by the time you reach Palestine, it's pretty close to when the Templar's and Hospitaller's were formed.

The exception is Ile de France where a Chapter House and a Church were included in a previous update. Starting from there, the Crusade gets started a little earlier but it still reaches Palestine around the historical time of 1099.

Also, keep in mind that although the Templars and Hospitallers are created in the Crusade, they can't be used for anything else outside the Crusade until the Crusade is over. So again, the modifications uphold the historical aspects of the game.

Therefore, the modifications are absolutely necessary if we're going for historical accuracy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

barocca
10-12-2002, 07:23
Paladin,

"ECS no-agents" is actually very popular,
would it be possible to include a no-agents compatible version of your campaign in the download?

"ECS no-agents" allows only emissaries and princesses,
completely removes taverns(assassin), brothels(spy), monestary(Inq.) and Reliquery(Grand Inq.), and corresponding Muslim buildings,
But enhances the happiness factor of churchs/mosques to compensate,
it is actually very playable,

the occaisional wish for an assasin is negated by keeping a carefull eye on the pope, and only offending him when he is 70+
- 'cause he will die soon anyway http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
OR by attacking a cath faction that is small, then when you get the warning take on your real threat!
Pope only tracks one warning at a time.

Paladin
10-12-2002, 08:12
barocca:

Quote Paladin,
"ECS no-agents" is actually very popular,
would it be possible to include a no-agents compatible version of your campaign in the download?[/QUOTE]

Sure, but what's the argument in favor of eliminating assassins, Inquistors, and Grand Inq., and corresponding Muslim's? Those are historical and the game uses them to balance itself out against the human player.

I can see how the Spy unit really is not historically accurate and seriously throws the game out of whack (I conquered the world in less than 100 years without ever having to declare war. I used Spies to cause revolts and stepped in right behind them).

But Assassins, et al, are useful, historically accurate, and don't unfairly throw the game out of whack. Plus, you can easily defend against Assassins if you want to ignore them.

If a player really wants to have no agents at all yet play the 1092 game, he can just use the 1092 Early file, remove the Cathedral and reliquary from Constantinople and the Churches from all the Catholic factions and then use the two crusader unit text files from the "ECS no agents" mod. That should do it.

But why miss out on those agents? They add a seriously fun element to the game. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

P.S. I uploaded the updated 1092Early campaign to totalwar.org. Can you please make sure the updated version takes the place of the earlier upload? Thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 10-12-2002).]

ICantSpellDawg
10-12-2002, 08:25
ok fair enough, but just for history's sake, the order didnt grow to more than 30 till after 1120 and wasnt recognized as an actual ordained order until even later. depending on whom you ask, there were only 8 or 9 knights in 1119, but now, people are saying closer to 30. The hospitaller knights were already around (since like 1070), but only as a hospital for the sick and didnt begin engaging in any hostile military actions until at latest 1126 where there are written down commitments to protecting christian pilgrimsen route to outremer in the orders records.

- Those two orders for the sake of arguement could be played earlier in the game as creative anachronisms can be fun, but my two biggest problems (aside from being obsessive about trivial history) are the teutonic and santiago orders. the Teutonic knights were initially seen as th Hospital of St mary of the Germans in 1197. In 1199, they were officially recognized as an ordained brotherhood. The Order of St james of the Sword (santiago) was first seen in 1158 near caeres in castile. they were officially recognized by the pope in 1175 and their "Rule" was changed from that of st augustine to the rule of the Templars. I know it gets confusing but these two orders simply cannot be in an early medieval game. Its like saying that there were sub-machineguns in the american civil war.

just constructive points im trying to make - even if they are in the game, i still appreciate your work and its the only mod i use. Good fun

also, this idea was dismissed in my previous thread on the subject, but is there any way to make the orders mantles (clothing under the cloak) look different from the kings men and more historically accurate in battle? i dont know about the other orders, but Templars were forbidden to remove their white mantle with red cross at any time, even during sleep AND WHERE ARE THEIR BEARDS!!!!!???????? these are a bunch of bad templars in this game and since the teutonic knights and santiago order were based on the rule of the temple, i dont think their grand master would be too pleased

i could go on and on

[This message has been edited by TuffStuffMcGruff (edited 10-12-2002).]

Paladin
10-12-2002, 09:41
TuffStuffMcGruff:

Quote ok fair enough, but just for history's sake, the order didnt grow to more than 30 till after 1120 and wasnt recognized as an actual ordained order until even later. depending on whom you ask, there were only 8 or 9 knights in 1119, but now, people are saying closer to 30. The hospitaller knights were already around (since like 1070), but only as a hospital for the sick and didnt begin engaging in any hostile military actions until at latest 1126 where there are written down commitments to protecting christian pilgrimsen route to outremer in the orders records.
- Those two orders for the sake of arguement could be played earlier in the game as creative anachronisms can be fun,...[/QUOTE]

As I explained above, the Order Knights do in fact show up around the appropriate times. In 1113, you have the first papal privilege for the Hospital of St John. But keep in mind that the modifications were actually meant so that you can bring Feudal Knights into the game at the historically correct time not to try and circumvent the introduction of the Orders.

As I said earlier, it's still going to be at least 1104 before you can launch a crusade anyway. And that's assuming that you are seriously intent on doing it as soon as possible. So, yes, in that case the Orders may come a few years earlier, but so what? How does that affect the game in any serious fashion? I don't think that it does. I mean, the moment you start playing the game you are changing history so this is just another instance where the actions of the Player cause events to change.


Quote ...but my two biggest problems (aside from being obsessive about trivial history) are the teutonic and santiago orders. the Teutonic knights were initially seen as th Hospital of St mary of the Germans in 1197. In 1199, they were officially recognized as an ordained brotherhood. The Order of St james of the Sword (santiago) was first seen in 1158 near caeres in castile. they were officially recognized by the pope in 1175 and their "Rule" was changed from that of st augustine to the rule of the Templars. I know it gets confusing but these two orders simply cannot be in an early medieval game.[/i]

Once again, in the Early game that comes with MTW you can create a Crusade by 1147, so right there, the game allows the Knights of Santiago to come in earlier than is historically correct. However, historically, there were Feudal Knights in the early part of the period, so what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to play out the Feudal Age without Feudal Knights just to make sure that the Orders don't come into play a few years earlier? I don't think so, hence the changes.



just constructive points im trying to make - even if they are in the game, i still appreciate your work and its the only mod i use. Good fun

Excellent, and I appreciate that very much. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Your insight is very helpful.


Quote also, this idea was dismissed in my previous thread on the subject, but is there any way to make the orders mantles (clothing under the cloak) look different from the kings men and more historically accurate in battle? i dont know about the other orders, but Templars were forbidden to remove their white mantle with red cross at any time, even during sleep AND WHERE ARE THEIR BEARDS!!!!!???????? these are a bunch of bad templars in this game and since the teutonic knights and santiago order were based on the rule of the temple, i dont think their grand master would be too pleased[/QUOTE]

The pictures would have to be edited. In order to do so, you would have to have an editor for the .tga files.

ICantSpellDawg
10-12-2002, 10:55
i found that all of the mounted order knights use the same model as most of the other mounted knights. so to alter them would make almost all of the other mounted knights look the same - i wonder how to get around this (the files are in the textures/men folder and are .bif files)

am i looking in the wrong place?

Action
10-13-2002, 01:43
If you download and install this mod will you need to swap out files in order to play multiplayer?

Also what factions would you recommend as being more challenging under your mod?

[This message has been edited by Action (edited 10-12-2002).]

10-14-2002, 01:16
Hi Paladin,

I'm replying here, rather than in the Turkish topic, as it seems more appropriate.

No, I'm not playing with the latest version of 1092 that has no spies and FKs available. I'd already started a campaign as the Egyptians ...

Which I've given up on, for the moment. The Byz are just SO tough. Instead I started a campaign AS the Byzantines (which I had been saving for later, as I've always wanted to play them) to see how it is from their perspective and see if it's my poor play as the Egyptians or the good troops of the Byz.

So far, it's looking like it's the good toops. I have sat on my initial provinces as the Byz and was at peace for a long time (till something like 1120), but then they invaded Con with 2500 men.

It's 1131 and I've stood off 3 huge invasions of Turks at Con, resulting in around 100 casualties for me and about 1,000 killed and captured for them. I didn't invade for a long time, as I'm trying to build up my bank. With so few provinces (though I did buy Kiev) my finances are more on a knife edge. I've been building ships like a crazy man to establish my trade net.

However, in 1125 the Egyptians attacked the Turks and have been chewing on them big time, after easily rousting a large French crusade going to Tripoli. The French had asked my permission and I let them through. Didn't really want to fight them and become weakened.

BTW, the Egyptians have taken Tunisia and Cyranea (sp?) in this game, too. I start making emesaries as soon as I can and flood the map so I can keep track of things and get a head's up on incoming crusades.

I figure I'll go back to the Egyptians when I have a better handle on Hard. I really need to find a way to hold off the Byzantines to continue that game and I just don't know what it would be. I have too many provinces to defend, even though I might be able to take on their whole army with mine.

I think I don't have enough of right troops. This war with the Byz came MUCH earlier than I would have wanted. Though the Turks have reappeared (Greece and Anatolia, fortunately), so maybe that will help. Also, I'm winning the war at sea, so if I can force my way into the Black Sea I could send a Jihad there to help.

More news as it happens,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-14-2002, 18:26
Action:

If you download and install this mod will you need to swap out files in order to play multiplayer?

I'm not sure about that but I assume it should be OK.

Can anyone else answer that question?


Quote Also what factions would you recommend as being more challenging under your mod?[/QUOTE]

I'm a big Byzantine fanatic so I have exclusively been playing them but I have noticed that the Almohads seem to have a hard time even though they still take over the Iberian Penninsula.

I think the latest update really changes things so it's up in the air as to who will come out on top.

Paladin
10-14-2002, 18:42
V'ger, thanks again for the info. Yes, the Byzantines are formadible if allowed to sit there unchallenged. The key to defeating them is strike them early and constantly. The first time I tried the 1092 campaign as the Byzantines, I almost lost Constantinople early on to the Turk menace. It was by the skin of my teeth that I kept it. The AI was doing it right. If I had lost it, the show would have been over because as the Byzan., you really need the money to support your forces. Those Kataphratoi's aren't cheap, as you know.

As it worked out, the Battle of Constantinople so weakened the Turks that it left them open for attack. But here's the kicker: In that game, I was still using Spies to create rebellions so I never had to risk troops until much later when I had built up my provinces. That's the dumb part of having Spies. They are simply too strong. I conquered the map easily using them whereas normally, there's no way I could have done it like that. Hence, their subsequent removal in the latest update.
At your earliest opportunity, try the new version with the "no spies" and "Feudal Knights" update. That should make things even more interesting.

It seems that maybe in your game as the Egyptians, the Turks may not have been smart enough or hostile enough to beat the Byzant. thus making it possible for their enormous strength. But, as you stated, the Turks are re-emerging so there's no way of knowing how this will end.

Thanks again for the feedback. Please let me know your thoughts about the update when you have a chance.

[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 10-14-2002).]

10-15-2002, 01:15
Hi,

I will try your update when I finish this game. Have you seen the Elmos take Tunisia more often then not? I've only played the 2 campaigns (Byz and Egyptian, rotating now) and the Elmos didn't take it either time. Of course, that's not much of a statical sample.

My Egyptian campaign has gotten more interesting, as you will see if you look at the Turkish thread you replied to. The French seem to have become the Hojos in these 2 games, from what I can see.

I do SO wish we could see what was happening in games without having to send agents all over creation.

You know, I had thought that spear units would be the answer to all heavy cav, but after playing with and against the Kats I'm coming to think that AP is better.

Back to the fight,
V'ger gone

10-15-2002, 02:59
Hello again, Paladin,

Thank you for your continued work. I was wondering if you knew of a tutorial on editing the building and units files? I'd like to mod your mod so that all the major and minor Catholic factions can create crusades. I'd also like to make it so that they can produce Crusader units after getting to some level of higher tech, say in the Citadel level.

I know that neither of these would be particularly historical, but I think they would make it more fun. I'd really like to try playing Aragon, Nov, maybe Sicily, but the crusades are too much fun to give up.

I also love the Aragon shield and colors. The next best to Novgorod, IMO, though they are all good.

Now, if only I could give Spain and England different colored tops on their unit bases like all the other countries have.


Back to the front,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-15-2002, 20:09
V'ger

Quote I will try your update when I finish this game.[/QUOTE]

OK, great, thank you.


Quote Have you seen the Elmos take Tunisia more often then not?[/QUOTE]

Yes, each time, they have stepped in and taken it.


Quote My Egyptian campaign has gotten more interesting, as you will see if you look at the Turkish thread you replied to. The French seem to have become the Hojos in these 2 games, from what I can see.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the French went nuts in every game I've played with the 1092 campaign. But keep in mind that I cut off their Flanders to Wessex link so the only way they can invade is with some ships. Plus, the other factions can now build Feudal Knights much sooner so let's see how that balances out the game.


Quote I do SO wish we could see what was happening in games without having to send agents all over creation.[/QUOTE]

Two things: I always create large fleets to sail around Europe for the trading aspect but it also helps me see what's going on in the coastal regions.

Secondly, if you type everything between the quotes: ".matteosartori.", you will be able to see what's in all the provinces. It's a cheat which I don't think is really a cheat at all. Now, the one weird thing is that sometimes your ships may disappear and then you have to type in that same sequence again to reverse the process. But this is a great way to be able to watch what's going on all over the map. Otherwise, early on it can be quite boring not knowing what's going on.


Quote I was wondering if you knew of a tutorial on editing the building and units files?[/QUOTE]

No, not that I know of.


Quote I'd like to mod your mod so that all the major and minor Catholic factions can create crusades.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure how to do that.


Quote I'd also like to make it so that they can produce Crusader units after getting to some level of higher tech, say in the Citadel level.[/QUOTE]

When you say Crusader units, do you mean the ability to call a Crusade or Templar Knights and others? That can be done but why would you do that?


Quote Now, if only I could give Spain and England different colored tops on their unit bases like all the other countries have.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree.

Paladin
10-15-2002, 20:15
UPDATE CORRECTION:

Guys, in my last update, I added horse breeders to the provinces of factions that can build Feudal Knights, however, I didn't put in the right code for the proper horse breeder. I fixed that as of today and uploaded the corrected zip file.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

srg3037
10-15-2002, 20:30
Paladin, love your new campaign but a yesterday i downloaded the newest one and I get this error:

COLUMN_building_influences

unknown building declared as building influence: column 11, row 12
{BROTHEL(100)}

you know what it is or means and how to fix it.

ICantSpellDawg
10-15-2002, 21:49
as the aragonese in your mod i am abl to create crusades, so i would assume sicily and hungary etc can do it to

10-15-2002, 22:21
Hi,

Yeah, Tuff, I saw that. I went in a modded buildins and units and changed a bunch of stuff. I wanted to make all units (well, except naptha and hashasins) that same size (60).

I also wanted to make sure all Catholic factions could call crusades. Lastly, I wanted all Catholic factions to be able to produce crusader units eventually. I've set the tech required to Citadel-level buildings. I've also made footnights buildable.

Last, but not least, I gave Tunisia back to the Elmos. At least, I've done all this in theory.

Once I've done this to Paladin's new files I may start yet another campaign to see if my mods took.

BTW, Pal, I don't have a problem with the French going nuts. That's probably more realistic than it was before.

I'm doing well with the Egyptians now and the Byz are relegated to Bulgaria and Serbia, but I can't continue because I CTD when trying to run the next turn (on the assault of Constantinople).

Adios,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-15-2002, 22:39
UPDATE CORRECTION:

srg3037:

Quote Paladin, love your new campaign but a yesterday i downloaded the newest one and I get this error:
COLUMN_building_influences

unknown building declared as building influence: column 11, row 12
{BROTHEL(100)}

you know what it is or means and how to fix it.[/QUOTE]


Yes, sorry about that. I have fixed it. Please feel free to download it again.

ICantSpellDawg
10-16-2002, 00:43
i cant play the new version that you uploaded, it gives me a problem with the brothel and i cant even start the main menu

uh oh - btw v'ger - id love to be able to put one of each order in almost every crusade
like only give HRE teutonic knights, seargants, templars, hospitaller knights/seargeants and templars (no santiago) etc. id give every catholic "country" templars and hospitallers and the aragonese and castilians santiago orders as well. The HRE are the only ones who should have teutonic knights - could you do that in the game v'ger or paladin? - it would be more accurate as the temple and hospital had preceptorys in almost every (if not every) catholic province


[This message has been edited by TuffStuffMcGruff (edited 10-15-2002).]

10-16-2002, 02:47
Tuff,

Well, if my mod works I can. I'm going to redo my mods to Pal's update and see what happens now.

So many mods,
So little time,
V'ger gone

srg3037
10-16-2002, 06:06
Paladin,

Again thanks for this awesome mod. But alas, there is still a problem (at least for me). The newest build of the mod fixes the brothel problem but now I cant advance to the next year (turn 2) wihtout it crashing to desktop. It does it with any faction.

Any ideas and can someone else replicate this problem.

10-16-2002, 07:08
Hi,

Just tried to run with all my stuff in on top of yours, Pal and got a building file error column 5 row 21 and then a floating point value begining at 6.

I'm trying my stuff on your previous version, which I know worked before I started messing with things.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-16-2002, 07:15
UPDATE CORRECTION:

Guys, sorry about that screw up. I fixed it and play tested to make sure there's no problems. You can still build a brothel but it's not good for anything else except whoring. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Go ahead and download again.

10-16-2002, 11:11
Hi,

Just tried the new version (files dated Oct. 15?). Tried Aragon and Spain. Aragon loaded, but when I set a few units to build and hit end turn I got CTD. Spain dropped me to the desktop before I got to the campaign map. Before I go to work on your files I'll need to know it's not just me.

I'm going to go back to the version I was playing, just before you removed spies, since I know that one works and put in my changes to see if MY stuff works. Then I'll be ready to put my stuff with your stuff.


Be kind to your web-footed friends,
V'ger gone

10-17-2002, 07:19
Hi,

Well, it's my bad, as I expected. I didn't quite understand how to edit and thought I could use Works and save as tab delimited text, which doesn't work. Instead I put my changes into the last 1092 before the nospies version by using Notepad.

Boy, what a pain. In any event, I appear to have everything done correctly. Now that I know what's what, I could put these changes into whatever mod, but may hold off for the patch.

My changes:

All Catholic factions, including minors, like Sicilian, can crusade.

All units except for naptha and hashashins are 60 men. (I did not change support costs, as I am unsure what the lookup table is like, so those heavy cav are harder on the pocketbook over time.)

All begining units are 60 men, except as previously noted.

All foot knights can be built.

All crusader units can be built by the "proper" faction. You'll have to build a level 3 castle, royal court 3, spearmaker 3 and chapter house, though fanatics only require the chapter house.

The Danes, Polish, Sicilians and Hungarians get the crusader units of the HRE/Italians.

Sicilians can also produce Italian light inf.

Hungarians can also produce Boyars.

Sicilian, Polish and Hungarian factions can build Gothic foot, sergeants and knights.

Templars have the correct (8) charge bonus.

You must own Switzerland to build their units.

Feudalfoot require swordsmith2, armourer2 and royal court2.

Teutonic knights, sergeants and foot can be built by the Danish, Hungarians and Polish, as well as the Germans.

Gothic knights, sergeants and foot can be built by the Danish, Hungarians, Polish and Sicilians, as well as Germans and Italians.

Order foot require royal court2, spearmaker3 and armourer3.

I think that's everything, but I'll edit this after a bit if I find something else.

Work, work, work,
Work, work, work
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-17-2002, 08:04
OK, so is the 1092 campaign working OK after the latest corrections I made?

Coug
10-17-2002, 10:31
Paladin, first off great job on the fixes. But one thing I've noticed about the most resent addition is that I cant build assassins. I know you disabled spies but my assassin seem to have gotten the axe also. And right now I got a real big problem with inquistors running around my country burning my poor generals. I also, I dont know if everyone else has noticed this but I've played the various releases of your fixes and England seem to be very powerful. Everytime I've played they've always gotten real uppity and crushed the poor Froggies.

[This message has been edited by Coug (edited 10-17-2002).]

10-17-2002, 14:25
Hi,

So far as I can see, my mods work. I'm playing Sicilians and can/have built a crusade and fanatics. I'm still working on the buildings for the various special units, but some of the foot knights and the Hospitallers show up when you right-click on the proper buildings.

I would like to know if I need to change the personalities of the normally non-crusading factions so that they are a crusader or not. I noticed that the Italians aren't and they can/do launch crusades, though not as often, which is what would be about right for all these other factions.

Vaya con AUM,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-17-2002, 21:49
Coug

Quote Paladin, first off great job on the fixes. But one thing I've noticed about the most resent addition is that I cant build assassins.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I just fixed it.


Quote And right now I got a real big problem with inquistors running around my country burning my poor generals.[/QUOTE]

That's just the game doing it naturally. I haven't done anything to inquistors. This sort of thing happened to some degree historically so it's best to have fun with it.


Quote I also, I dont know if everyone else has noticed this but I've played the various releases of your fixes and England seem to be very powerful. Everytime I've played they've always gotten real uppity and crushed the poor Froggies.[/QUOTE]

The strategy to dealing with the English is to remove Normandy as a base as soon as possible and engage them on the seas as soon as possible. This is why the French fought so long with them over so many years. The game is now more historcially accurate because before the mod, the English were getting trounced fairly well since all the French had to do was waltz right into Wessex. The English used to be pretty easy to beat but not anymore.

10-17-2002, 22:31
Coug,

Keep some bishops and cardinals with your generals, that'll help.

Paladin,

I'm not using your latest mod for my work. I did what I did to the last version of 1092 before you took spies out.

I can put my stuff in your current version, which I presume is at your site? (I think I already downloaded it before starting all this modding, but will get it again to make sure.)

Thing is, the way agents work right now, I'm not much inclined to play with them. Now, when we can stack them and/or filter after the patch, then I'll go back to playing with them.

Assuming my mod continues to work, what's the proceedure for uploading it here?

Hasty pudding,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-17-2002, 22:42
You have to upload at your own website.

10-18-2002, 01:36
Hi,

Well, that's a bit of a bummer. I don't have a website. I thought people were uploading here? Oh well.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-19-2002, 21:02
Quote Thing is, the way agents work right now, I'm not much inclined to play with them. Now, when we can stack them and/or filter after the patch, then I'll go back to playing with them.[/QUOTE]

Since Spies Have been eliminated, this should be a smoother process. I find Assassins fun.

10-19-2002, 23:01
Hi,

To me, the way it is is just too much work.

On to another subject. It's a shame you can't edit/add GA goals. Playing as a minor faction in GA doesn't work very well because of that.

To test what I've done, I started a game as the Sicilians and all they have are crusades and I'm not sure I'm scoring points for them. I would just move on and play the Italians, but this campaign is so interesting otherwise.

France and the HRE and Novgorod have been crushed, along with Egypt and the Elmos. Hungary is about to go (it's 1185 or a bit later). Spain is on the ropes, but may yet live because of recent events.

The Turkish Empire used to stretch from Cordoba all the way to Trebizond, Nicea and Georgia. There have been several revolts, so they're somewhat broken up, but still have a huge military. I took Antioch in a crusade, then the Turks asked for peace.

I am in mortal fear of my allies, the Byzantine Empire. They are enormous, covering nearly all of Russia, all the Baltics. They are now crushing Hungary and have just decended on the Turks. They have a huge fleet, and nearly as large an army as the Turks. Of course, they have those evil generals and Kats, which is what makes them so deadly.

Anyway, if you'd like me to put my mods in your current version, I'd be happy to do so.

Adios,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-20-2002, 19:48
What are the mods you made? E-mail them to me at jpaladin@pacbell.net and attach a readme file so I know what changes you made from the 1092 campaign. Thnx.

10-21-2002, 09:15
Hi,

OK, Pal, will do.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

dclare4
10-21-2002, 16:02
hi there Paladin,

have you been able to get the ex-minor factions to work in the Custom Battles? (Aragon, Sicily, etc.) For some reason when I tried playing them they CTD.

Thanks,
Gilbert de Clare

Paladin
10-21-2002, 19:02
Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
hi there Paladin,

have you been able to get the ex-minor factions to work in the Custom Battles? (Aragon, Sicily, etc.) For some reason when I tried playing them they CTD.

Thanks,
Gilbert de Clare[/QUOTE]

No, I haven't tried.

byzantineguy
10-21-2002, 20:34
Paladin,, thanks for making this mod. I'm enjoying it quite a bit. My Greek background makes me play the Byzantines, and it is a blast. So far, I'm at war with four factions, and have no allies. Perfect! Now, there is one "problem". On the standard early campaign, even if those dromons and galleys outrun my firegalleys, I eventually catch them and sink them. In this campaign, an Italian galley has sat in the Dardannelles outside C'nople for about 30 turns, and I can't catch or sink them. My trade is in the tank. A couple my ships have been sunk, though, in other seas, but I have not managed one sinking. Bad luck? Otherwise, everything seems to work great.

10-21-2002, 21:18
Hi,

I'm playing Sicily right now (1231) and it's working fine.

Adios,
V'ger gone

Paladin
10-21-2002, 22:01
byzantineguy:

Quote Paladin,, thanks for making this mod. I'm enjoying it quite a bit. My Greek background makes me play the Byzantines, and it is a blast.[/QUOTE]

You're very welcome. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


Quote Now, there is one "problem". On the standard early campaign, even if those dromons and galleys outrun my firegalleys, I eventually catch them and sink them. In this campaign, an Italian galley has sat in the Dardannelles outside C'nople for about 30 turns, and I can't catch or sink them. My trade is in the tank. A couple my ships have been sunk, though, in other seas, but I have not managed one sinking. Bad luck?[/QUOTE]

The modifications should have no effect on the ability to catch an Italian Galley or any other ship and combat between any ship. This just appears to be a tough ship to catch. And, that's the trick. You may try putting 3 or 4 ships, i.e. (1) Fire Galley and (1) Dromon in a stack and (1) or (2) Galleys with (1) Fire Galley in another stack and then attacking him with each stack as opposed to attacking him with all the ships at once. I find that the more times you attack in one turn, the more chances you have of engaging him and sinking him.

Give that a shot and let me know how it goes.

Paladin
10-21-2002, 22:04
Quote Originally posted by V'ger:
Hi,

I'm playing Sicily right now (1231) and it's working fine.

Adios,
V'ger gone[/QUOTE]

Excellent, thanks for the update.

barocca
10-22-2002, 10:46
Quote Originally posted by V'ger:
Hi,
I thought people were uploading here?
Ciao,
V'ger gone[/QUOTE]


UPLOAD FILES HERE http://www.totalwar.org/site/MTWupload.php3

Nial Black Knee
10-24-2002, 01:03
Like the Idea, nice map

tomppb
10-24-2002, 07:39
Hey Paladin,nice work on the mod. One question though is it possible to change what buildings are required to build units?? For example would it be possible to just make a horse farmer the only requirement for feudal knights? The reason I say is that giving so many buildings to the nations at the beginning doesn't just effect knights it effects lots of other stuff too like feudeal men at arms and chivilaric men at arms. It is quite easy to get these units very fast ie not even worth getting feudal men at arms cuz you can get chivilaric so fast?

Just a thought.

Paladin
10-24-2002, 18:16
Nial Black Knee:

Quote Like the Idea, nice map[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the feedback.

Paladin
10-24-2002, 18:27
tomppb:

Quote Hey Paladin,nice work on the mod.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.


Quote One question though is it possible to change what buildings are required to build units?? For example would it be possible to just make a horse farmer the only requirement for feudal knights?[/QUOTE]

Yes.


Quote The reason I say is that giving so many buildings to the nations at the beginning doesn't just effect knights it effects lots of other stuff too like feudeal men at arms and chivilaric men at arms. It is quite easy to get these units very fast ie not even worth getting feudal men at arms cuz you can get chivilaric so fast?
Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you're saying and I know this can be tweaked a bit but it would take a lot of time to work it out. However, I would suggest to you that these units were in fact available at this time in history and should be available regardless.

One of my first questions was when I played a campaign game for the first time was, where are all the knights and where are all the castles? I thought I must be missing something because these things were clearly not being represented in the early game when in history they were there.

So then I took a historical map and compared it with some other maps and sat down and re-set the borders, made Crusades available at the appropriate time, removed spies because of their blatant ability to overthrow factions, and made Feudal Knights available at the appropriate time in history.

In one my early 1087 games, at about 1160, I was the only one who had Feudal Knights because I concentrated on creating them. The other factions had nothing. Is that fun? Heck, no, hence the 1092 campaign was instilled with the proper types of units right from the beginning.

Please enjoy the mod and let me know if there are any other historical aspects you would like to see included.

Paladin
10-24-2002, 18:40
READ ME FILE:

As a reminder of what's in the 1092 campaign I'm posting the contents of the readme.txt file that is zipped along wth it.

Following are the changes I made as of 10/23/02 (or 23/10/02 for our friends over the "big lake". http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif :

- No more spies. (Spies used as tools for rebellions are far too powerful and unhistorical. If you want to see what's going on in other parts of the map, use the cheat code by typing in everything between the quotes, ".matteosartori." That will bring up what's going on all over the map. IMHO, it's a more enjoyable way to play the game. NOTE: Sometimes one or two of your ships will disappear while using this cheat. Just type in the same cheat code and it will restore your ships so that you can see them again.)

- Hungary, Novgorod, Sicilian, and Aragonese factions are now playable.

- Changed start date to 1092 A.D.

- The Turkish Faction has been given: Nicea, Trebizond, Rum, Georgia, Anatolia, Edessa, Armenia, Syria, Antioch, Tripoli, and Palestine.

- Added Fort in Nicaea.

- The Turkish Faction has the following troops in the respective provinces:

ANATOLIA - Horse Archers 40
ANATOLIA - Spearmen 100
NICAEA - Horse Archers 40
NICAEA - Spearmen 100
TREBIZOND - Spearmen 100
GEORGIA - Horse Archers 40
GEORGIA - Spearmen 100

- "Lesser Armenia" is rebel controlled with the following units:

Horse Archers 40
Spearmen 100

- Changed Libya (Cyrenacia) and Tunisia to rebel (Hammadids-Zirrids) controlled.

- Added the following units to Algeria:
Berber Camel 40
Desert Archers 60
Berber Camel 40

- Added Horse Guild, Cathedral, Monastery, Reliquary, Royal Palace, and Merchant to Constantinople. (Historically, St. Sofia had been around for hundreds of years and was the greatest cathedral of its' age. Not including it would be a huge breach of historical fact.)

- Upgraded Citadel to Fortress in Constantinople.

- Added the following units to Constantinople:
Spearmen 100
Spearmen 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
NapthaThrowers 12
NapthaThrowers 12
TrebizondArchers 60
TrebizondArchers 60
AlanMercenaryCavalry 40
Kataphraktoi 80
FireGalley 1
FireGalley 1 (The Byzantines had an extensive fleet which is not represented in the original "Early Period."

- Changed control of Crimea to Byzantines.

- Added Spearmen 100 to Crimea

- Added a port and castle to Crimea.

- Changed control of Serbia to Byzantines.

- Added the following units to Serbia:
Spearmen 100
ByzantineInfantry 100

- Added 20 Florins to production of Greece.

- Added castles to Crete, Rhodes, Cyprus, and Malta. (Historically, all four had castles and Malta's castle was very strong.)

- Added castle8 to Antioch. (In 1097, The Crusaders found a huge castle so big that they didn't have enough troops to surround the entire city. Also, the seige could easily have dragged on for a year.)

- Added castle8 to Jerusalem.

- Changed Portugal to Almohad ownership. (Historically, the Almohads controlled 3/4 of Portugal. However, Portugal is Catholic religion and culture.)

- Added the following units to Portugal:
Desert Archers 60
Berber Camel 40

- Added castle to Trebizond. (Historically, the Byzantines held on to the castle while the Turks held the province. There's no way that I know of to split up control so I opted to include a castle but give nominal control of the province to the Turks.)

- Changed Burgundy and Provence to Burgundinian (rebel) control. (Historically, Burgundy was a seperate nation for many years and wasn't consumed by the HRE until the mid-1200's)

- Added troops originally in Burgundy and Provence into Swabia and Tyrolia, respectively.

- Added a port in Wessex and Normandy (Both provinces had ports by that time.)

- Upgraded Fort to Castle in Wessex.

- Added a Shipwright in Wessex.

- Removed neighbor link between Wessex and Flanders. (It is far too easy for the French to move troops to England when historically the French only were able to mount raiding parties of the English coastline. So in the game, if the French want to invade England, first, they will have to build a fleet and fight it out with the English on the sea then on land.)

- Changed control of Anjou and Aquitaine to French control. (Again, historically, the French had control of these areas by 1092)

- Added Archers 60 and Spearmen 100 to Aquitaine.

- Added Peasants 100 and Archers 60 to Anjou.

- Added Chapter House to Ile de France so that Crusades can begin as historically launched.

- Changed Castle in Ile de France to Castle8

- "Improved Farmland" and "Horse Farmer" for Wessex.

- Moved all English units previously in Anjou and Aquitaine into Normandy.

- Added (2) Archers 60, Peasants 100, Spearmen 100, and a Barque to Wessex.

- Increased income of Normandy to 430

- Increased income of Wessex to 450

- Increased income of Mercia to 320

- Increased income of Northumbria to 290

- Changed control of "The Papal States" province to Italy while Rome remains in the Papist hands.

- Papist leader is moved to Rome.

- Moved units from "The Papal States" to Rome.

- Put Naples under Sicilian Rule.

- Add Spearmen 100 to Naples.

- Added (1) Galley to Venice.

Additionally, following are the changes in order to make it so that in the "Age of Feudalism", factions have the ability to actually build Feudal Knights right away as is historically correct. So instead of having to wait for many years until you have the funds and have gone through the
process of constructing all the various buildings, the Feudal Knights are now ready to be used by those factions that can build them:


- Added Castle, Armourers' Workshop, Royal Estate, and a Royal Palace to Poland.

- Added Castle, Armourers' Workshop, Royal Estate, Royal Palace, and a Spearmaker to Hungary.

- Added Horse Breeder, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Estate to Rome.

- Added Castle, Royal Estate, Royal Palace, Armourers' Workshop, Spearmaker, and Horse Breeder to Sicily.

- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Royal Estate, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Palace to Bavaria.

- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Estate to Venice.

- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Spearmaker, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Estate to Aragon.

- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Royal Estate, and Armourers' Workshop to Castile.

- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Royal Estate, Armourers' Workshop, and Spearmaker to Denmark.

- Added Royal Estate, and Armourers' workshop to Wessex.

- Added Castle, Royal Estate, Horse Breeder, and Armourers' Workshop to Ile de France.

Interesting historical note on Italy: There was no Italy until the 1800's. The faction

referred to as Italy in the game is historically merely a geographical region and nothing more. The area was controlled by a number of City-States with no central authority.

During the 11th century an elaborate pattern of communal government began to evolve under the leadership of a burgher class grown wealthy in trade, banking, and such industries as woolen textiles.

Many cities--especially FLORENCE, GENOA, PISA, MILAN, and VENICE--became powerful and independent City-States. Resisting the efforts of both the old landed nobles and the emperors to control them, these COMMUNES hastened the end of feudalism in northern Italy and spawned deeply rooted identification with the city as opposed to the larger region or country. The cities were often troubled by violent and divisive rivalries among their citizens, the most famous being the papal-imperial struggle--between the GUELPHS AND GHIBELLINES, the supporters respectively of the popes and the emperors.

So, really, Italy should not be a power at all but instead should be broken up into a number of City-States.

I fought the temptation to make the Italian player a one province empire with Venice as the sole playable province and then Genoa, Tuscany, Milan, Corsica, Sardinia, and the Papal States province, as all rebels.

But since that would obviously make playing the Italian player almost impossible, I left the Italian states as one empire. But if anyone would like me to split them up, please let me know.

Once again I ask, please check this early campaign out and post your comments. Thank you.

Paladin
11-09-2002, 17:49
Has anyone had any problems using the 1092 campaign with 1.1? My tests so far indicate that there's no problem. Thoughts?

Warlokk
11-10-2002, 21:35
I've been playing a Spanish campaign with it, and it's worked great... except I didn't re-replace the 2 prod files with your modded ones after the patch updated them, so the Spies are still there. I understand there were changes made to those files in the patch, so I didn't want to undo them with the modded ones. Are you planning on updating your mod with the new files?

Anyway, so far so good, and I'm in about 1260-something on normal.

Great work, BTW

V'ger
11-10-2002, 21:36
Hi,

I haven't been running with your mod, since you change the build files. I didn't want to lose the patch improvements. If you'll redo your files, I'll put in my changes to your latest version and send it to you as an alternate. BTW, I added Burgundy in my version.

Right now, I'm just playing the regular game with my size mod. I may go ahead and put all my mods into the regular game so that people can play that way, too.

I miss playing your mod, though. I like the positions better. I should also say that putting Burgundy in had profound effects on the other factions in that area.

In your/our mod, the minors seemed to play better. I had Aragon and Burgundy surviving for long periods, even thriving, having split up France. France really seems to get the short end of the stick in 1092, but then, they did in real life, as well, so I think that just shows your mod is doing a good job.

Now that we can filter, I don't have as much problem with agents, either.

I look forward to your next release,
V'ger gone

Sir Marc
11-15-2002, 17:58
Paladin...a couple of queries regarding your mod and the patch:-

Do i just install the patch over the top of your mod or should i re-install your mod after the patch? Any files to be careful of?

At present i am well into the middle of a campaign using your 1092 mod (great work&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, if i install the patch will it screw the savegame file or campaign, or should it be okay? I dont wish to start from scratch again, i'm enjoying it too much.
Anyone else also know the answer to this?

Paladin
11-16-2002, 00:59
Quote[/b] ]Great work, BTW

Thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



Quote[/b] ]Are you planning on updating your mod with the new files?

Yes, I'll try and get it done this weekend.

Paladin
11-16-2002, 01:05
Quote[/b] ]Do i just install the patch over the top of your mod or should i re-install your mod after the patch?

Let me update the patch files and I'll upload them hopefully this weekend.



Quote[/b] ]At present i am well into the middle of a campaign using your 1092 mod (great work, if i install the patch will it screw the savegame file or campaign, or should it be okay?

It may very well screw up your game. Don't take the chance. Finish the game then download the new zip file after I've uploaded it, hopefully this weekend. I'll post a message here when it's done. Thank you.

Paladin
11-19-2002, 17:08
Guys, sorry for the delay. I have just uploaded the updated version of the 1092 campaign that takes advantage of the changes in the 1.1 patch.

You can download it from here:

1092 Campaign (http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip)

Please let me know if there are any problems. Thank you.

+DOC+
11-19-2002, 19:00
Paladin,

Very interested to see the no crossing between Mercia and Flanders.... a couple of questions:

1. How does the AI cope with that when England and/or France?

2. How doe crusades launched by England cope with that no border, especially when controlled by the AI?

3. Have you considered doing this for the Spain to North Afica border (Granada to Morocco)?

Thanks

Doc

Turbo
11-21-2002, 16:45
Paladin,

You have developed an excellent MOD, however, I would like to point out some historical inaccuracies in your MOD.

BYZANTIUM
Asia Minor - The Turks did not control all of Asia Minor as you depict. The Byzantines retained control of a solid 'chunk' of southern Turkey. For more information please consult the following link: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Images/Chicago/hewsen119.html

Asia Minor - With the exception of Nicea (which should be Byzantine controlled), rebellion rates in Asia Minor should be very high to reflect the unrest. The Turks have only recently captured these areas and are trying to force convert the people.

Naples - The Byzantines controlled some coastal areas of southern italy through 1105. The cities of Bari and Tarentium (Longobardia region) continued under Byzantine administration through 1105. Naples was under the control of local nobility. Control should be rebel or Byzantine.

Crimea - The Byzantines had a very minor presence in the coastal areas (around Cherson) but no presence inland. It is a push to give control to the Byzantines.

Serbia - The Byzantines had a presence in Macedonia, Albania and a small portion of southern Serbia. The Hungarians controlled Dalmatia which covered the entire coastline of the region. Inland was under local control. It is a push to give control to the Byzantines.

Swabia - This region was in revolt from the HRE. The revolt was not crushed until 1103. From 1091 to 1093, Saxony, Bohemia, and Luxembourg were in full revolt. The Empire was forced to invade these areas to regain control. If you want to keep them as part of the HRE, the rebellion factors need to be increased.

Kingdom of Burgundy - This was basically a vassal state of the HRE from 1070 on. If do not consider them as part of the HRE, then how can you justify inclusion of the Duchy of Brandenburg, Duchy of Bohemia, and Austria? These were also vassal states with a degree of independence. The rebellion rates should be increased to reflect the 'national identity' of these states.

Almohads - I think several tribes were 'incorporated' into the Almohads by CA. I think keeping Portugal as rebel accurately portrays the fierce struggle of the Portugese during this time against the Muslims. (My opinion)

I would be interested in what historical basis you have used to determine unit types and building types. Armies during this period were largely poorly trained and armed conscripts. Weaponsmith skills did not exist in any major way in some of the regions indicated by your MOD. Very little progress was made up through 1100 in terms of the science of warfare except in the Islamic nations.

ICantSpellDawg
11-22-2002, 06:33
i can never ever build fuedal foot knights at all... argh, but that is the case in the unmodified game as well. am i missing something?

Paladin
11-23-2002, 05:01
+DOC+:


Quote[/b] ]Paladin,

Very interested to see the no crossing between Mercia and Flanders.... a couple of questions:
1. How does the AI cope with that when England and/or France?

The A.I. seems to do well with the change. Instead of France overpowering England in an unhistorical assault, both factions seem to focus on more immediate concerns allowing themselves to become powers in their own right.



Quote[/b] ]2. How doe crusades launched by England cope with that no border, especially when controlled by the AI?

Since there is an English ship in the straits, the Crusade is still able to cross over into the continent thus allowing the Crusade to continue on.



Quote[/b] ]3. Have you considered doing this for the Spain to North Afica border (Granada to Morocco)?

I did, but historically that gap was so small that no serious onslaught was ever denied access to either side of the sea. Only a small effort made by the invading force was ever necessary to make the crossing.



Quote[/b] ]Thanks

My pleasure. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paladin
11-23-2002, 16:51
Turbo:


Quote[/b] ]Paladin, You have developed an excellent MOD,...

Thank you.



Quote[/b] ]...however, I would like to point out some historical inaccuracies in your MOD.

Please do.



Quote[/b] ]BYZANTIUM
Asia Minor - The Turks did not control all of Asia Minor as you depict. The Byzantines retained control of a solid 'chunk' of southern Turkey. For more information please consult the following link: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Images/Chicago/hewsen119.html

Asia Minor - With the exception of Nicea (which should be Byzantine controlled), rebellion rates in Asia Minor should be very high to reflect the unrest. The Turks have only recently captured these areas and are trying to force convert the people.

Your link listed above covers a period of 120 years. In that period of time, the borders and alliances of the people changed often. If you will look back at my initial post you will see that the 1092 campaign is based upon the start of one particular year, 1092 A.D. And as such, Asia Minor is almost perfectly laid out as to what was going on in that period of time. If you'll note the following historical map, 1092 map (http://www.croatianmall.com/lupic/belmonte/middle_ages/a1092eu.gif) we will see that the 1092 campaign is very close to what we had in 1092 on a historical basis.

Additionally, the relgious persuasion of the population is Orthodox so this is in keeping with the types of difficulties that the Sultan would have faced. Recalling of course that in 1071, it was not the intent of the Sultan to establish an empire out of the Eastern Roman Empire but instead to carve himself some land for his tribe.



Quote[/b] ]Naples - The Byzantines controlled some coastal areas of southern italy through 1105. The cities of Bari and Tarentium (Longobardia region) continued under Byzantine administration through 1105. Naples was under the control of local nobility. Control should be rebel or Byzantine.

As I noted in the case of Trebizond, while the cities may still have been under Byzantine administration, the surrounding countrysides were not. The game focuses on the province as a whole and does not allow for the spliting of the cities and the provinces to start. Therefore, the entire province belongs to the faction that controls the majority of the territory. As for Byzantine power in Italy, my sources indicate (http://www.friesian.com/romania.htm#late) that they had been extinguished by late 1071.



Quote[/b] ]Crimea - The Byzantines had a very minor presence in the coastal areas (around Cherson) but no presence inland. It is a push to give control to the Byzantines.

The Crimea is such a small province that it made sense to give it to the Byzantines who have had a long historical link to the region for many, many years. Again, the majority of the power of the region belonged to the Byzantines and it seemed appropriate to give them this province.



Quote[/b] ]Serbia - The Byzantines had a presence in Macedonia, Albania and a small portion of southern Serbia. The Hungarians controlled Dalmatia which covered the entire coastline of the region. Inland was under local control. It is a push to give control to the Byzantines.

Again, I'm using that same map to rely upon Byzantine control of the reqion.



Quote[/b] ]Swabia - This region was in revolt from the HRE. The revolt was not crushed until 1103. From 1091 to 1093, Saxony, Bohemia, and Luxembourg were in full revolt. The Empire was forced to invade these areas to regain control. If you want to keep them as part of the HRE, the rebellion factors need to be increased.

I'm sure there was some revolt but I simply can't find anything online that makes reference to it. It was obviously not a big enough concern for historians to make a big issue of it. Thus, it's hard for me to do anything with it.



Quote[/b] ]Kingdom of Burgundy - This was basically a vassal state of the HRE from 1070 on. If do not consider them as part of the HRE, then how can you justify inclusion of the Duchy of Brandenburg, Duchy of Bohemia, and Austria? These were also vassal states with a degree of independence. The rebellion rates should be increased to reflect the 'national identity' of these states.

As we all know, the HRE is loosely depicted in this game and the Duchy of Brandenburg, Duchy of Bohemia, and Austria were all integral parts of the HRE, whereas Burgundy was not. Again, relying on that same map, Burgundy was purposely left out of the HRE.



Quote[/b] ]Almohads - I think several tribes were 'incorporated' into the Almohads by CA. I think keeping Portugal as rebel accurately portrays the fierce struggle of the Portugese during this time against the Muslims. (My opinion)

The Almohads were in fact a tribe themselves and CA did incoporate other tribes into the 1087 campaign but I removed Tunisia and Libya from the control of the Almohads and gave it to the Hammadids and the Zirrids. Every map I've seen seems to indicate that the Almohads controlled about 75% of Portugal. And as such, I thought it would be appropriate to reflect that in the game.



Quote[/b] ]I would be interested in what historical basis you have used to determine unit types and building types.

Ask CA, I didn't create the game, I only modified it.



Quote[/b] ]Armies during this period were largely poorly trained and armed conscripts. Weaponsmith skills did not exist in any major way in some of the regions indicated by your MOD. Very little progress was made up through 1100 in terms of the science of warfare except in the Islamic nations.

To what are you referring? The added buildings in the western factions were done so in order that they can build Feudal Knights. Otherwise, in an era of Feudalism, you wouldn't see those knights for many, many years.

As for Constantinople, there was a very large cathedral there for many centuries named St. Sophia. It wasn't in the original Early game. Neither were the Monastery, Reliquary, Royal Palace, and Merchant buildings all of which are quite appropriate for the time yet were left out by CA.

As for military science, when the Crusaders marched across the Holy Land, they were the most fearsome war-machine of the time. If they had the determination and were not so far away from their lines of supply, there would have been nothing to stop them from wiping the Islamic forces back into Arabia and into Mecca itself. I believe CA does a fairly good job of reflecting the Feudal Knights and their abilities in the game.

I hope you feel that I answered your questions to your satisfaction. Thank you for your thoughts.

ICantSpellDawg
11-25-2002, 22:29
i love this mod

Paladin
11-30-2002, 15:12
Thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I've received a request to create a separate Venetian Empire so I'll be working on that. I'll let you guys know when it's done and make it available to you if you're interested.

cugel
11-30-2002, 19:17
Hi, Paladin. I wanted to congratulate you on your excellent mod. I've been using it as the basis of my own modding efforts and I must say it's a big improvement over the standard early campaign I believe that some tweaks to it add to gameplay.

1: I've severed all the land bridges and given the danes and Almos. a port and shipyard to start. This seems to keep the Spaniards from simply running over north Africa as they usually seem to do (post patch), Almos now hold their own better. I notice, as you must have, that the English now build up their fleet and unify Great Britian and Ireland before challenging the French on the continent. I note your reasons for not severing the straits of Gibraltar. Historically unimpeachable, but I believe that severing them leads to better gameplay.

2nd: Following +DOC+'s modifications (he kindly sent me a copy)increases AI probability of building ports and shipyards by about 50%, thus adding to the naval race for supremacy. (The game as is gives the human player too great an advantage in building a naval/trade empire). I think that adding to the AI preference for merchants would also help so that the player doesn't AUTOMATICALLY develop the most income within the 1st 100 years. Increasing the fleets also makes it more difficult to launch seabourne invasions anywhere you want, (as was the bane of Shogun). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

3rd: I gave Sweden to the Danes, since they controlled roughly the southern 1/2 of it from the 6th to the 16th centuries, (but not the northern 1/2 - and there's no way to split up the provinces). One could go either way on this point.

sassbarman
12-02-2002, 09:08
I'm anxious to give your mod a try read your text files and the changes you made sound great, just curious though what changes to the game are made when you modify those prod files. I guess what I want to know is whether I can still play the game in its original post patch form.

+DOC+
12-02-2002, 12:09
Quote[/b] (cugel @ Nov. 30 2002,17:17)]Hi, Paladin. I wanted to congratulate you on your excellent mod. I've been using it as the basis of my own modding efforts and I must say it's a big improvement over the standard early campaign I believe that some tweaks to it add to gameplay.

1: I've severed all the land bridges and given the danes and Almos. a port and shipyard to start. This seems to keep the Spaniards from simply running over north Africa as they usually seem to do (post patch), Almos now hold their own better. I notice, as you must have, that the English now build up their fleet and unify Great Britian and Ireland before challenging the French on the continent. I note your reasons for not severing the straits of Gibraltar. Historically unimpeachable, but I believe that severing them leads to better gameplay.

2nd: Following +DOC+'s modifications (he kindly sent me a copy)increases AI probability of building ports and shipyards by about 50%, thus adding to the naval race for supremacy. (The game as is gives the human player too great an advantage in building a naval/trade empire). I think that adding to the AI preference for merchants would also help so that the player doesn't AUTOMATICALLY develop the most income within the 1st 100 years. Increasing the fleets also makes it more difficult to launch seabourne invasions anywhere you want, (as was the bane of Shogun). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

3rd: I gave Sweden to the Danes, since they controlled roughly the southern 1/2 of it from the 6th to the 16th centuries, (but not the northern 1/2 - and there's no way to split up the provinces). One could go either way on this point.
Cugel,

The increases i made did in fact include increases to the probability of the AI building merchants too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Paladin
12-09-2002, 00:10
Guys, the "Venice Variant" is complete.

You can download it from:

http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092EarlyVeniceVariant.zip

Please try it and let me know what you think. Thank you.




cugel:


Quote[/b] ]Hi, Paladin. I wanted to congratulate you on your excellent mod. I've been using it as the basis of my own modding efforts and I must say it's a big improvement over the standard early campaign I believe that some tweaks to it add to gameplay.

Great, thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



Quote[/b] ]1: I've severed all the land bridges and given the danes and Almos. a port and shipyard to start. This seems to keep the Spaniards from simply running over north Africa as they usually seem to do (post patch), Almos now hold their own better.

I still find that the Almos are running over the Spanish like a steamroller. I'll have to keep watching before I can make a call on whether I should cut that bridge. As for the Danes, historically they didn't really establish much of an empire beyond Scandinavia so it didn't seem to me to be something that would reinforce their role in history to add anything beyond what is already there.



Quote[/b] ]I notice, as you must have, that the English now build up their fleet and unify Great Britian and Ireland before challenging the French on the continent. I note your reasons for not severing the straits of Gibraltar. Historically unimpeachable, but I believe that severing them leads to better gameplay.

Yes, the English are now doing what they should be doing. Now, if I can only get them to build some ships, they would be acting alot more like they did historically.



Quote[/b] ]2nd: Following +DOC+'s modifications (he kindly sent me a copy)increases AI probability of building ports and shipyards by about 50%, thus adding to the naval race for supremacy. (The game as is gives the human player too great an advantage in building a naval/trade empire). I think that adding to the AI preference for merchants would also help so that the player doesn't AUTOMATICALLY develop the most income within the 1st 100 years. Increasing the fleets also makes it more difficult to launch seabourne invasions anywhere you want, (as was the bane of Shogun).

I agree. I just emailed +DOC+ for a copy of that info but just in case he doesn't check his box for a while, could you please email me at jpaladin@pacbell.net on how to do that? I would appreciate it.



Quote[/b] ]3rd: I gave Sweden to the Danes, since they controlled roughly the southern 1/2 of it from the 6th to the 16th centuries, (but not the northern 1/2 - and there's no way to split up the provinces). One could go either way on this point.

I spent alot of time trying to find out who controlled Sweden during this period and I was not able to find any part of Sweden under Danish control during this time frame. Can you please post a reference to a source? I would really appreciate it. Thank you.




sassbarman:


Quote[/b] ]I'm anxious to give your mod a try read your text files and the changes you made sound great,...

Thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



Quote[/b] ]...just curious though what changes to the game are made when you modify those prod files. I guess what I want to know is whether I can still play the game in its original post patch form.

Definitely save the original files elsewhere. But the only changes made to those files is in regard to the fact that you can no longer build Spies by making Brothels unable to produce them.

ICantSpellDawg
12-09-2002, 02:36
rock - but i really wish there was a way to turn mods on and off without complelty overwriting files

Paladin
12-09-2002, 14:26
Quote[/b] (TuffStuffMcGruff @ Dec. 08 2002,19:36)]rock - but i really wish there was a way to turn mods on and off without complelty overwriting files
I completely agree. But for now, let's do the "file dance". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

monkian
12-09-2002, 16:57
I love the mod so far and am playing as the Venetians (sp?)

My only gripe is that the English don't seem to be selectable ?

Are they supposed to be ?

If not- fine

If so- Any idea how I fix it ?

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paladin
12-09-2002, 17:49
What do you mean the English are not selectable? In the option area I was still able to choose to play the English and in the game I can click on the English faction and get info. What part are you experiencing problem with?

Paladin
12-09-2002, 18:32
Notes on the Venetian Variant:

As of today, I added Trading Posts to Venice, Genoa, and Tuscany. Sorry I forgot to add them yesterday. Please download the file again but you only need to replace the 1092EarlyVenice.txt file this time.

I purposely strengthened Venice's rivals, Pisa, Genoa, and Milan so that the Venice player has to focus historically on building a trading empire and not become so quickly a territorial empire.

I gave Venice 5 Galleys specifically so that the Venice player could reach Constantinople right away, as is historical.

I found that as the Venice player, there's really not alot to do so the turns move very quickly.

It seems that building up the Venice province to its' maximum income opportunity is paramount to anything else.

A good idea would be to accept EVERY single alliance that you get offered. At the beginning of the game you are the weakest faction in the game and any real attempt to take Venice is going to be successful. Thankfully I have found that the other factions are more interested in other issues than hitting Venice early on.


Notes regarding general philosophy behind buildings & units:

I'm sure most of you already know this but I thought I would summarize some thoughts on what it means to create buildings in a province.

For example, when you build a Trading Post in a province, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are building just one trading post. Building a trading post, depending on the province, could mean that you are building a network or series of traing posts throughout the province tied together for the common goal of importing and exporting goods.

I see the same thing as being the case with units like Priests. When I build a Priest unit, I look it as though I've created a group of Priests and other religious people that support the Priest for the purpose of preaching and other activities. By killing off such a unit, you are basically eradicating the preaching efforts of an entire group of religious people in that particular province.

Now, this brings up a good point: why doesn't the AI use the fact that you killed off a group of holy men as a reason to either excommunicate you or call upon a Crusade against you?

Certainly anyone that knows his history is aware that one of the galvanizing reasons for the Crusades is that simple pilgrims to the Holy Land were being killed or harrassed by Muslims. This led to the Pope calling for a Crusade. Had the pilgrims been allowed to go there without being attacked, there is very little evidence to believe that the Crusades would have ever had happened.

In fact, one of the conditions of peace between the Crusaders and the Muslims was that pilgrims be given the freedom to visit the holy sites without being victimized.

I encourage thoughts on these notes. Thank you.

monkian
12-09-2002, 19:36
Paladin

On the faction selection screen i can't actually select the English as a playable faction http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

RunAway!!
12-09-2002, 20:18
Is there some way to set assassinations; or maybe just unsuccessful assassinations as acts of war? Or even better yet, set a certain number of assassinations as the starting point for war; ie if one group of priests goes missing in your provinces, it could be bandits; if 5 groups of priests go missing, its crusadin' time

Paladin
12-09-2002, 22:20
Quote[/b] (monkian @ Dec. 09 2002,12:36)]Paladin

On the faction selection screen i can't actually select the English as a playable faction http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
That's weird. I'm not experiencing that myself. I'm sorry but I can't explain it. Anyone else?

Paladin
12-09-2002, 22:21
Quote[/b] (RunAway @ Dec. 09 2002,13:18)]Is there some way to set assassinations; or maybe just unsuccessful assassinations as acts of war? Or even better yet, set a certain number of assassinations as the starting point for war; ie if one group of priests goes missing in your provinces, it could be bandits; if 5 groups of priests go missing, its crusadin' time
That is a great question. Unfortunately, I don't know. I'll work on trying to figure it out. Anyone else know anything about this?

cugel
12-10-2002, 04:40
I've already sent this e-mail, but I'll post it here as well:

Hi Paladin: Here is the info on the merchants and the map info on Sweden you requested:

The current merchant settings I used (from +DOC+) are:

3 MERCHANT "Trading Post, Merchant, Merchants Guild, Master Merchant" TRADING_POST "800, 1000,1200,1400" "2,4,6,8" "{CASTLE}, {CASTLE4, MERCHANT},{CASTLE7, MERCHANT2},{CASTLE10, MERCHANT3}," "Office Level 1, Office Level 2, Office Level 3, Office Level 4" "POVERTY_STRICKEN(210), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(5), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(80), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(110), CATHOLIC_TRADER(160), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(160), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(80), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(100), POPE(60), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(90), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(60), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(90), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(80), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(110), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(110), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(90), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(90), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(40), REBELS(110), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(210), POVERTY_STRICKEN(300), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(7.5), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(105), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(150), CATHOLIC_TRADER(225), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(225), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(105), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(135), POPE(75), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(120), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(75), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(120), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(115), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(150), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(150), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(120), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(120), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(45), REBELS(150), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(300), POVERTY_STRICKEN(435), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(11.25), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(142.5), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(210), CATHOLIC_TRADER(322.5), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(322.5), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(142.5), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(187.5), POPE(97.5), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(165), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(97.5), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(165), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(142.5), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(210), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(210), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(165), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(165), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(52.5), REBELS(210), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(435), POVERTY_STRICKEN(637.5), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(16.875), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(198.75), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(300), CATHOLIC_TRADER(468.75), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(468.75), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(198.75), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(266.25), POPE(131.25), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(232.5), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(131.25), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(232.5), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(198.75), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(300), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(300), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(232.5), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(232.5), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(63.75), REBELS(300), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(637.5), " "{PORT(150),SHIPYARD(75)},{PORT(150),SHIPYARD(75)},{PORT(150),SHIPYARD(75)},{PORT(150),SHI
PYARD(75)}" NO "1,2,3,4"



Shipyards have also been increased:

3 SHIPYARD "Shipyard1, Shipyard2, Shipyard3, Shipyard4" SHIP_PRODUCER "400, 600, 800, 1000" "4, 5, 6, 7" "{PORT,CASTLE4},{PORT,SHIPYARD},{PORT,SHIPYARD2,FOUNDRY2},{PORT,SHIPYARD3}" "Shipyard1, Shipyard2, Shipyard3, Shipyard4" "POVERTY_STRICKEN(5), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(5), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(80), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(200), CATHOLIC_TRADER(200), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(200), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(80), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(80), POPE(80), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(80), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(55), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(80), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(80), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(90), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(90), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(90), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(90), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(50), REBELS(90), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), POVERTY_STRICKEN(7.5), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(7.5), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(100), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(300), CATHOLIC_TRADER(300), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(300), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(100), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(100), POPE(100), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(100), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(62.5), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(100), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(100), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(115), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(115), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(115), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(115), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(55), REBELS(115), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), POVERTY_STRICKEN(11.25), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(11.25), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(130), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(450), CATHOLIC_TRADER(450), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(450), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(130), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(130), POPE(130), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(130), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(73.75), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(130), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(130), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(152.5), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(152.5), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(152.5), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(152.5), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(62.5), REBELS(152.5), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), POVERTY_STRICKEN(16.875), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(16.875), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(175), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(675), CATHOLIC_TRADER(675), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(675), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(175), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(175), POPE(175), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(175), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(90.625), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(175), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(175), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(208.75), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(208.75), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(208.75), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(208.75), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(73.75), REBELS(208.75), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), " "{},{},{FOUNDRY(150),FOUNDRY2(150)},{FOUNDRY(150),FOUNDRY2(150),FOUNDRY3(150)}" NO "2,3,4,5" "NONE, NONE, COMPASS, COMPASS"

The results of these changes have been uniformly good IMHO. The english have built a fleet equal to my own (Danish) one and a trade empire to boot (they're the other major world power now (it's about 1260) since I wiped out the Egyptian fleet after they attacked me). Game balance seems quite good overall. I've also increased the rebellion factor in early.txt to 1 for each province (except a few highly rebellious ones like Scotland). Rebellions now are more common and factions reappear with some regularity. The Aragonese just reappeared (after a 20 year hiatus) in Anjou. I believe that this gives greater faction longevity overall and leads to some interesting reversals of fortune for the AI factions

I should point out that Kraellin's new mod actually uses Merchant and Shipyard values much higher than this. I haven't tried it yet. Since I'm not sure what these values refer to and whether there is some internal game engine limit I'm probably going to increase all the factions Shipyard and Merchant preferences from the values here, but I'm not sure how much.

Here is the historical information you requested. I'm also posting this response to the forum so that others who may be interested can see where to go for historical research:

http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm This is the link to the Periodical Historical Atlas, a great reference tool. You will note that the Danes controlled the southern portion of what is now Sweden from the 7th to the 17th centuries. While I admit that these maps are at 100 year intervals and not for any single date in between, by scanning the maps over a period of centuries you can judge generally when historical changes took place. If the Danes are shown as controlling southern Sweden for 1000 years or so, we can safely assume that they didn't lose control for any significant periods of time between the dates shown on the map.

BTW: I've also modded the game to make all the Christian factions be able to produce Crusader knights and Order foot soldiers. True, not all factions should be able to produce all of these knights, but some were available to any of these factions during the early period (and anyway it makes it more fun - their stats are the same as Chivalric knights, but they look "cooler" IMHO).

; ^ )

Order foot are a big improvement over the standard Chivalric Sergeants, making this mod well worth the trouble

Again, congrats on an excellent mod I'm going to have to give your Venetian mod a try next.

+DOC+
12-10-2002, 17:11
Thanks for sharing that Cugel. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paladin,

I also increased the chances of ports being built in a similar way to those listed above by Cugel for shipyards and merchants. I might suggest increasing them slightly more than i originally did with these, however, only by play-testing will you reach a medium that you are happy with.

I'll email you with a more detailed explanantion including how to increase the likelihood of the AI building ships when i get a chance, really busy at the moment leading up to Xmas. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Paladin
12-10-2002, 19:39
+DOC+ and cugel, thanks for the info. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I look forward to looking at the shipping building info as well. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Also, what's the way to make the AI more aggressive?

NagatsukaShumi
12-10-2002, 20:38
On land or on sea?

Paladin
12-11-2002, 19:10
Quote[/b] (NagatsukaShumi @ Dec. 10 2002,13:38)]On land or on sea?
Both.

cugel
12-11-2002, 20:29
Paladin: You should check out the entries for the various ships galley, cog, etc., included in Kraellin's unit_prod11 file from his EarlyRussiaQ mod (available from the downloads section) as well the revised entries for shipyards, ports, and merchants from his crusader_build_prod file from the same mod. I believe that these values were partly supplied by +DOC+ and then playtested by Kraellin.

The idea is to increase AI play by:

1. increasing resources available to all factions,
2. increase AI build preferences for port, shipyard and ships, leading to,
3. increased AI seabourne trade (increasing values for the merchants in the build prod).

If it works as suggested, it would greatly improve the AI's overall strategic performance by generating much greater income for the AI factions as well as making it much harder for the player to simply build a trade empire, rule the waves and generate so much income that he can build any army he wants and take over the map with ease by seabourne invasion.

I've been playtesting after inserting some of these entries one at a time into my mod of your 1092 mod to see the results. It does seem that the factions do build more ships and merchants, but sometimes you can lead a horse to water. . . . (the AI doesn't always use it's ships in the most logical fashion) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif. Still, it's worth a look. I will post my results here, and (I suppose if it's ultimately worth it) to upload the files as a mod to the downloads section.

ICantSpellDawg
12-11-2002, 20:34
paladin, i think bohemond made a good choice when he made all of the hospitaller, templar and teutonic units "creatable" (whats the word i want to use?)

i believe that these units should be able to be created at certain places after a certain amount of time passes and certain buildings are created

in his files, templar and hospitaller units are able to be created by any catholic nation who takes over palestine (for a high price after the respective buildings are made)

i would also allow the HRE to build teutonic units as well in prussia,lithuania and latvia, the papacy to build templars and hospitallers anywhere and the aragonese and castilians to build santiago knights (as well as temp/hosp). all of these units would be incredibly expensive of course (except for the papacy maybe who could have that advantage) but it would allow a more realistic feel to the game as the religious orders were very active outside of crusades at the time and held preceptories in almost every kingdom

after a certain point in history, the Spanish kings used to automatically become members (if not leaders) of the order of santiago - is it possible to make the royal troops santiago knights rather than royal knights? the could also be allowed to build royal knights as it would be NEAT-O

these are just suggestions cuz im not sure how to do this without crashing my game (not very good with even simple programming)

thanks - id really love it if someone was up for this, i use his crusade files with your game as it is right now and makes it pretty cool and pretty much the same as your game only with those units availabel

ICantSpellDawg
12-11-2002, 20:38
sorry for spam, but would it be possible to make the burgundians a playable faction as well? i think i heard that the textures are included in the game for some reason (they could hold the rebel provinces of province and burgundy)

AND ONE MORE THING - i cant figuire out how to make footknights available for spawn - ive checked the post about it but it doesnt work for them ergh - would it be possible for you to include them as well, im going to keep experimenting with the crusade file till i figuire it out, but all of those aforementioned things are a little overwhelming for me to put together myself

sorry if im being bothersome

RunAway!!
12-11-2002, 22:17
Did you happen to change the Papacy's AI? I wonder, because since I've been playing this mod, the Pope has a tendency to conquer Europe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Well, he doesn't go after the entirety of it, but he's done a good job of eliminating the Sicilians, Italians, and HRE. Kind of funny; he invades them, then he excommunicates them.

Also, the Papacy suffered a rebellion by Catholic bandits?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Rome is back in the hands of the mob now.

Anyways, the mod has been fun so far, works great, other than the Pope's bad attitude.

cugel
12-12-2002, 00:14
Paladin: "thanks very much for the info. By the way, do you know how to make the AI more aggressive?"

Hmmmn. Paladin: I've been thinking about that one. From my obvservation, the AI is aggressive enough, generally speaking. It often doesn't have enough money to expand though. For example, in the standard campaign, the Danes were notorious for sitting around and doing nothing. Why? They were Catholic_Expansionist after all My guess is that they were always so close to their support limit that they couldn't build or train the troops needed to expand. In my last campaign I set all the factions on expert to 10,000 florins to start. This gives the AI money to play around with. I would suggest modifying the start amount to about 12,000 florins, maybe try 15,000 and see what happens. The human player can always generate that kind of income eventually anyway (if he tries to do it). I play tested the mod last night as the Sicilians, quickly built a trade empire and had about 36,000 florins in the bank by 1024 (32 years) plus a large army of knights and mercenaries in Naples to discourage attack. It's the AI that suffers from the credit squeeze the most. If it can't generate sufficient income to build large armies or improve its provinces it generally just sits there.

My idea is that the more money, the more the factions will expand, and thus come into conflict with each other (and the player as well). It would be well worth testing the AI performance with different starting florin figures.
Anyone of you tried this?
I think I'll start the AI off with 15000 fl. and let you know what happens.

BTW: I was pleased to see the AI (French) quickly build some Order Foot - I modded the game to permit all the catholic factions to build Order foot if they had the chapter house + the spearmaker's guild. Now I think that I'll have to watch carefully or I might get hammered by some seriously badass troops in the first 50 years - something that just doesn't happen in the regular campaign (in my experience).
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

+DOC+
12-12-2002, 01:17
Quote[/b] (cugel @ Dec. 11 2002,22:14)]I think I'll start the AI off with 15000 fl. and let you know what happens.
That's exactly what i do. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

cugel
12-12-2002, 03:41
Quote (cugel @ Dec. 11 2002,22:14)
I think I'll start the AI off with 15000 fl. and let you know what happens.

That's exactly what i do.

Well, +DOC+ don't keep us in suspense Let us know how well it works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

Paladin
12-12-2002, 16:03
cugel:


Quote[/b] ]Paladin: You should check out the entries for the various ships galley, cog, etc., included in Kraellin's unit_prod11 file from his EarlyRussiaQ mod (available from the downloads section) as well the revised entries for shipyards, ports, and merchants from his crusader_build_prod file from the same mod. I believe that these values were partly supplied by +DOC+ and then playtested by Kraellin.
The idea is to increase AI play by:
1. increasing resources available to all factions,
2. increase AI build preferences for port, shipyard and ships, leading to,
3. increased AI seabourne trade (increasing values for the merchants in the build prod).
If it works as suggested, it would greatly improve the AI's overall strategic performance by generating much greater income for the AI factions as well as making it much harder for the player to simply build a trade empire, rule the waves and generate so much income that he can build any army he wants and take over the map with ease by seabourne invasion.

I've been playtesting after inserting some of these entries one at a time into my mod of your 1092 mod to see the results. It does seem that the factions do build more ships and merchants, but sometimes you can lead a horse to water. . . . (the AI doesn't always use it's ships in the most logical fashion) . Still, it's worth a look. I will post my results here, and (I suppose if it's ultimately worth it) to upload the files as a mod to the downloads section.

Excellent, I will defintely start working on the changes. Thank you.



TuffStuffMcGruff:


Quote[/b] ]paladin, i think bohemond made a good choice when he made all of the hospitaller, templar and teutonic units "creatable" (whats the word i want to use?)
i believe that these units should be able to be created at certain places after a certain amount of time passes and certain buildings are created
in his files, templar and hospitaller units are able to be created by any catholic nation who takes over palestine (for a high price after the respective buildings are made)
i would also allow the HRE to build teutonic units as well in prussia,lithuania and latvia, the papacy to build templars and hospitallers anywhere and the aragonese and castilians to build santiago knights (as well as temp/hosp). all of these units would be incredibly expensive of course (except for the papacy maybe who could have that advantage) but it would allow a more realistic feel to the game as the religious orders were very active outside of crusades at the time and held preceptories in almost every kingdom
after a certain point in history, the Spanish kings used to automatically become members (if not leaders) of the order of santiago - is it possible to make the royal troops santiago knights rather than royal knights? the could also be allowed to build royal knights as it would be NEAT-O
these are just suggestions cuz im not sure how to do this without crashing my game (not very good with even simple programming)
thanks - id really love it if someone was up for this, i use his crusade files with your game as it is right now and makes it pretty cool and pretty much the same as your game only with those units availabel

I would be happy to take a look at doing it but where do I find those files to download?



Quote[/b] ]sorry for spam, but would it be possible to make the burgundians a playable faction as well? i think i heard that the textures are included in the game for some reason (they could hold the rebel provinces of province and burgundy)

Yes, but here is the question: HOW MANY PLAYABLE FACTIONS CAN WE HAVE BEFORE THE PROGRAM STARTS CRASHING? (I'm not yelling, just trying get my question to stand out more) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



Quote[/b] ]AND ONE MORE THING - i cant figuire out how to make footknights available for spawn - ive checked the post about it but it doesnt work for them ergh - would it be possible for you to include them as well, im going to keep experimenting with the crusade file till i figuire it out, but all of those aforementioned things are a little overwhelming for me to put together myself

I'm not sure, I would have to take a look at it.



RunAway:


Quote[/b] ]Did you happen to change the Papacy's AI? I wonder, because since I've been playing this mod, the Pope has a tendency to conquer Europe. Well, he doesn't go after the entirety of it, but he's done a good job of eliminating the Sicilians, Italians, and HRE. Kind of funny; he invades them, then he excommunicates them.
Also, the Papacy suffered a rebellion by Catholic bandits?? Rome is back in the hands of the mob now.
Anyways, the mod has been fun so far, works great, other than the Pope's bad attitude.

No, I haven't done anything to the Pope. And, yes, I agree, he's been alot more aggressive.


cugel:


Quote[/b] ]Hmmmn. Paladin: I've been thinking about that one. From my obvservation, the AI is aggressive enough, generally speaking. It often doesn't have enough money to expand though. For example, in the standard campaign, the Danes were notorious for sitting around and doing nothing. Why? They were Catholic_Expansionist after all My guess is that they were always so close to their support limit that they couldn't build or train the troops needed to expand. In my last campaign I set all the factions on expert to 10,000 florins to start. This gives the AI money to play around with. I would suggest modifying the start amount to about 12,000 florins, maybe try 15,000 and see what happens. The human player can always generate that kind of income eventually anyway (if he tries to do it). I play tested the mod last night as the Sicilians, quickly built a trade empire and had about 36,000 florins in the bank by 1024 (32 years) plus a large army of knights and mercenaries in Naples to discourage attack. It's the AI that suffers from the credit squeeze the most. If it can't generate sufficient income to build large armies or improve its provinces it generally just sits there.
My idea is that the more money, the more the factions will expand, and thus come into conflict with each other (and the player as well). It would be well worth testing the AI performance with different starting florin figures.
Anyone of you tried this?
I think I'll start the AI off with 15000 fl. and let you know what happens.

OK, that sounds good, I'll work on giving the AI some more Florins.



Quote[/b] ]BTW: I was pleased to see the AI (French) quickly build some Order Foot - I modded the game to permit all the catholic factions to build Order foot if they had the chapter house + the spearmaker's guild. Now I think that I'll have to watch carefully or I might get hammered by some seriously badass troops in the first 50 years - something that just doesn't happen in the regular campaign (in my experience).

What did you do to make sure that all Catholic factions can build Order Foot Knights? I thought they could do it as it stands?

ICantSpellDawg
12-12-2002, 17:52
actually the mastermind who made the norman mod also included these things in his new crusade file - he is on the board - but not all of the things i mentioned were included.

he basically made all of the crusade units available to create

MAD FUN YO

cugel
12-12-2002, 20:16
What did you do to make sure that all Catholic factions can build Order Foot Knights? I thought they could do it as it stands?

Actually not. See the crusader_unit file entry for order foot: "ARAGONESE, ENGLISH, FRENCH, GERMAN_HRE, ITALIAN, SPANISH" See? No Danes or Sicilians, nor any other minor factions anyone might add to make playable (like the Burgundians or Swiss). I added all the catholic factions to the entries for order foot, knights of Santiago, Hospitaller and Templer. Yes, I know all those orders were'nt available to all those factions, but it really doesn't make much difference, since they are all similar to chivalric knights anyway (mostly just different appearance, but that is a nice change). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

I just added { SPEARMAKER3, ARMOURER3, CHAPTER_HOUSE } to their entry to make it possible for any christian faction to build them (order foot that is), and the French promptly did (without a crusade, unless I missed it). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've just started a new campaign as the Sicilians with 15,000 fl. for all factions. It looks (so far) as though they all build a lot more ships and expand their shipping network. We'll see. I had to restart because I forgot to take the Byzantines off of ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST to start and put them back on DEFENSIVE. they and the Turks immediately start grabbing all of Russia. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

+DOC+
12-12-2002, 21:34
Quote[/b] (cugel @ Dec. 12 2002,01:41)]Well, +DOC+ don't keep us in suspense Let us know how well it works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
Okies then, here's the most obvious and noticeable improvements i've noticed since giving the AI more money. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

1. The main reason why i gave them 16K instead of their starting 8K is the AI is less likely to go bankrupt in the opening stages. Quite often for the more minor factions with small starting incomes (e.g. Denmark, Novgorod and Poland) a couple of bad AI decisions or unlucky breaks with rebellions meant they went bankrupt and simply just stagnated in their home province. Eventually, many, many years down the line they'd make a stupid and failed attempt to attack an adjacent faction which has been developing productively since the start. A fine example of this is the Danes attacking the HRE in Saxony once the multitude of heirs had bankrupted them. However, probably more important than a large starting income for the Danes was to double the annual income that Denmark, the province, produces. This then gives them a basis from which to expand at a constant, albeit still slow, pace.

2. It makes the AI play more aggressively as they're immediately able to spend more money on improvements and units in quite a few provinces. The human is still fairly restricted.

3. As a result of 2, they'll also improve tech-wise better than they did before, bringing them in line with the better-planning human player.

4. Finally, it's the only real way of making the game significantly more difficult for the human player as the human will start off with substantially less money. Just make sure you don't start on the Normal difficulty level though, otherwise you'll get the increased money levels too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

That's it really. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

+DOC+
12-12-2002, 21:58
Oh and Paladin i just emailed you all the details for modding shipping.

Let me know how you get along with it all and make sure you post your findings. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers

cugel
12-13-2002, 04:20
+DOC+, interesting. So you give the AI more money? I'm currently playtesting giving all the factions more money, (15,000 fl.) but I'm not sure I like the idea of shorting the player, because it's emotionally unsatisfying to me. It's like playing chess against a computer. You want the computer to win by playing better chess, not because it made you start a queen down http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif (Of course I always play on the expert level anyway because it gives the AI an honor advantage in battle (I think its 2, right?), and since AI battle tactics are generally dismal it's needed - but I don't think it makes any difference on the strategic level).

Maybe you're right, that its the only way of getting a decent game out of the computer, but I hope not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I still think that tweaking the Crusader_Prod and Unit files as well as the starting conditions can yeild better AI play. For example, reducing the AI preference for peasants can help (I think you said you did that, right? or someone did). The AI should generally build more high end units when they are available, maybe if it had more money it would develop more "super stacks", kind of like the ones that used to attack you in Shogun when you were playing Mori http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Some observations:
1. I not sure that shorting the player would ultimately make much difference. It would slow down your rate of expansion for sure, but unless the faction balance was upset by modding so that one AI faction emerged as a super-power and attacked the player before he could get untracked, a decent player is always going to have the most income anyway in fairly short order and the initial 16k isn't going to change that.

2. Contrary to 1, the changes I've made so far, and those I've seen suggested generally by others have (and are intended to have) the effect of creating GREATER balance between the AI factions and prolonging faction longevity. Thus, fewer AI superpowers will emerge, thus the player will have plenty of time to get going (generally speaking).

3. The increased shipbuilding activity from the modding efforts means that it's much more dangerous to go to war, since you're then likely to face sea battles throughout your trade routes, drastically cutting income. This does disadvantage the player, because its much easier for AI factions to make peace, the AI generally won't make peace with you in my experience. Plus, it's MUCH harder to launch seabourne invasions (a badly needed improvement - they're fun and should be an element of the game, but there should be enemy fleets limiting your ability to just attack anywhere).

Maybe I'll try lowering the starting income for my chosen faction just to see. Hmmmn. [Puts on thinking cap] http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

BTW: I gave Norway to Denmark and that seems to help the Danes a lot. Now they can conquer Sweden without too much trouble, which they seem to do and this gives them a better starting point. Now they generally give the HRE fits and sometimes expand into Russia. Once I saw them conquer Scotland and Ireland and take on the english. (They held Norway and the southern tip of Sweden historically from the 6th to the 17th centuries anyway). I dropped the idea of giving them Sweden to start because they only held the very southern part of the country and never conquered the northern 2/3, so it seemed a stetch to give it all to them.

+DOC+
12-13-2002, 21:28
Buuuut, Cugel, the human player is always short changed on the Hard and Difficulty levels?

All AI factions use the Normal money setting, which is by default 8K. Therefore if you play Hard you have 6K and Expert a pultry 4K. By setting all the Normal levels to 16K you simply increase the advantage the AI gets to start with.

As i said the main reason for giving them more money is to allow the AI to get started without going bankrupt. The Danes, Poles and Novs can go bankrupt very easily and in the Early campaign it can cost a lot to get up and running as a lot of the factions start with very under-developed provinces.

cugel
12-14-2002, 01:42
All AI factions use the Normal money setting, which is by default 8K. Therefore if you play Hard you have 6K and Expert a pultry 4K. By setting all the Normal levels to 16K you simply increase the advantage the AI gets to start with.


Well, I'll be buggered http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif So, the AI uses the normal setting?? Well, that would explain some of the difficulty I've been having http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif I thought the AI applied the expert values for each faction it was representing
I was about to conclude that it's hopeless to try and help out the AI after last night's experience. I've just about concluded that the AI just doesn't care a tinker's curse about developing a trade empire. I was watching the AI Byzantines, who had built about 8 ships. BUT the AI kept NONE of them in the Sea of Marmara, so the Byzantine trade empire was cut off at the source. One turn it either built or moved one into it's home port and income from Constantinople instantly shot up from 800 to 2200 florins. The ingame message announced that the Byzantines were the richest faction. Then, next turn, the AI moved the ship out again and trade income fell right back to nothing.

No matter what tweaks we make, if the AI is going to be as stupid as that it's just hopeless. I'm going to continue to try a few things to see before I just give up though.

I still stand by what I said about income levels not providing a real handicap for the human player. I believe that the real difference on hard and expert levels is the honor bonus the AI gets in combat (I think it gets a bonus of 2?). If the AI were smarter, maybe an income bonus would be significant, but the way things are it just delays the human's build up slightly, not significantly. As for the AI, as Mark Twain said when he glanced at his watch "I was shocked to discover that it had just been fooling away the time and not trying to get ahead any." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif If the AI can be kept from going bankrupt by a "rise in salary", all to the good. But I believe that a more significant advantage could be given the AI if one determined what faction one wished to play and then simply gave the other AI factions more buildings and troops, plus the income level to maintain them. In fact, if the AI's performance is really going to be as limited as I begin to believe it is, that would be the only way to achieve a level playing field. This would, of course, require a multiplicty of early.txt files which would not be easily distinguishable on the selection screen, however. Is it possible to edit the faction text message that appears during campaign selection? What file is that?

Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic, based on a limited number of trials, we'll see.

I'd be interested to know what you all think about this.