Heroes

[DaVinci]

I mean the heroes described in the previews as fantasy units which can hold vs. a whole army.

Who wants this ?
Not me.
(I know such total fantasy is popular in the asian lands though).

Would be nice if CA can make it possible to have those fantasy contents optionally.
However, those units, if the game is properly moddable, will be the first thing what i'll change.

How are the opinions here about those heroes?

[Double A]

From what I gathered, they act like Spartan hoplites: able to hold a bridge against anything, but surrounded they're boned. And unlike Spartans, they don't stand up to arrows like Godzilla stands up to tank shells.

[A Nerd]

I like the idea of heroes. I hope the arise similar to the swordsman event in the original STW. Or perhaps as a man of the hour event in RTW and M2TW but instead of a general he can be of a samurai in a specific foot unit, never ashigaru! I hope they are not spawned like diplomatic pieces in ETW and NTW! :P Also, not too many per campaign, you woulnd't want an entire army made up of heroes! It might be fun to use them in combat and level them up accordingly. Like stated in the above, non immortal pieces that must be used carefully in case they might die. Hopefully they are vulnerable to fatigue, weather and on a lesser extent, morale, this, and with what has been learned from press write-ups might make the hero unit not as frown worthy as the kensai of STW. I always liked the kensai though. Except for the fact that he was 3 times larger than the rest of the samurai!

[Double A]

Yeah, it seems like Heroes would be extremely rare and valuable, like a First Rate in the time ETW took place (but not in ETW :tongue:)

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I heard the hero characters are attached to a unit. So now it's like a famous samurai and his elite troops. (Yoshitsune Minamoto and his small but elite cavalrymen. :D)

So it'll be better than the old Kensai. They're also supposed to be authentic people this time. :D Mushashi Miyamoto, Tadakatsu Honda, Inei Hozoin, Masamune Date, Yukimura Sanada... guys like this I'm thinking.... XD

I'm still not fond of super units, but I'll wait to I see how it's implemented I think. If my army is routed just because a hero was in the enemy army though..... I won't be happy. XD

[G. Septimus]

I mean the heroes described in the previews as fantasy units which can hold vs. a whole army.

Who wants this ?
Not me.
(I know such total fantasy is popular in the asian lands though).

Would be nice if CA can make it possible to have those fantasy contents optionally.
However, those units, if the game is properly moddable, will be the first thing what i'll change.

How are the opinions here about those heroes?
no no no...
Samurais oftenly fight with their army (except Mushashi Miyamoto, he's a lone warrior) so adding people like that being heroes is somewhat, pointless

[pevergreen]

I heard the hero characters are attached to a unit. So now it's like a famous samurai and his elite troops. (Yoshitsune Minamoto and his small but elite cavalrymen. :D)

CA copying off another game? (King Arthur: The Roleplaying Wargame)

I don't know what to make of them. Will have to wait.

[quadalpha]

I remember not being able to find my sword saint in a melee.

(Hi pever.)

[A Nerd]

Perhaps a small band of bodyguardlike followers would be good for hero units. They could also perhaps be uniquely decorated with striking armor and the like such that they are more easily recognizable on the battlefield.

[andrewt]

Clearly, you guys have forgotten what it was like to fight a 7-9 star Byzantine general in MTW1.

[quadalpha]

Clearly, you guys have forgotten what it was like to fight a 7-9 star Byzantine general in MTW1.

Oh, God. I used to make a point of bribing/assassinating generals just so I don't have to pack enough men around them so they don't run away.

[A Nerd]

Clearly, you guys have forgotten what it was like to fight a 7-9 star Byzantine general in MTW1.

Ha ha, that and some varangians in his army too! Seriously, if vulnerable to flanking and arrow fire (unlike kensai) it might not be such a immortal unit. I don't know about armor upgrades and the like and what they will do to his defense bonuses though. Armor didn't seem to make a great difference when guns, arrows and crossbow bolts were fired upon bodyguard units in
M2TW. Though I do remember a battle where my arquebus got two volleys off on a mongol general and failed to kill one of them! M2TW might not be the best example however.

[DisruptorX]

Clearly, you guys have forgotten what it was like to fight a 7-9 star Byzantine general in MTW1.

My thoughts as soon as I heard the complaining start.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Clearly, you guys have forgotten what it was like to fight a 7-9 star Byzantine general in MTW1.

Lol. Oh yeah.... That was bad. Those guys were invincible! XD As Russia my Boyar were not quite a match for those guys. Byzantine generals, kings, and heroes were a nightmare to fight. XD

[KLAssurbanipal]

I don't like this idea. Total War are startegy series, not RPG.

[antisocialmunky]

Ninja all of them yourself then. -_-'

I wonder if they will be attach/detatch or just a special unit?

[Barkhorn1x]

I don't like this idea. Total War are startegy series, not RPG.

I disagree. Some RPG elements add immersion and foster attachment to the characters. I think that if heroes are used sparingly and are not too uber then their addition will add a bit more spice to the procedings.

Heck, the most hard core WWII boardgame - Advanced Squad Leader - had hero generation under certain circumstances. Heroes are cool - AND fun.

[pevergreen]

Depends how deep the RPG goes.

You could argue that V&V are already RPG. Or you could go and draw the line and say stuff that deviates too far from the hardcore RPG genre is not RPG...

Say the hero units in Warcraft 3. RPG element in an RTS or not?

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Those invincible Kataphraktoi generals were tough. XD You had to shoot from the front, right, left, and behind. XD And then maybe send in some infantry. Allow a hour or so and you get 1 dead Byzantine Emperor. XD

But the Sengoku is an appropriate age for heroes. Musashi Miyamoto, Tadakatsu Honda, Murashige Tachibana. Tough guys.... XD As long as they're not like the old kata-tanks or the Kensai from STW 1 then we should be okay.....

I know this could go horribly wrong..... but there were a lot of famous heroes in the Sengoku. XD And maybe it'll be okay?

Well we'll have to see when it comes out.

[andrewt]

Yeah, the old Byzantine jedis were really tough. I generally surrounded them with spears and sometimes had my archers just fire on them, even sacrificing some of my troops as well. Then I'd crank up the speed really high until they die. Hopefully, STW2's heroes won't be that insane.

[quadalpha]

Depends how deep the RPG goes.

You could argue that V&V are already RPG. Or you could go and draw the line and say stuff that deviates too far from the hardcore RPG genre is not RPG...

Say the hero units in Warcraft 3. RPG element in an RTS or not?

Any word on a return of the family tree?

[Barkhorn1x]

Any word on a return of the family tree?

Did Shogun have a family tree? I really cannot recall.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Shogun did not have a family tree. But it did inform you of the princes ages. (As for recording who their mother, brother, or cousins, etc.... it didn't do that.)

[DaVinci]

I referred to this article http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/109/1093664p1.html, which gives a good roundup of the upcoming S2TW, and i like it.

I have sceptic thoughts about the last paragraph of the 1st page about the heroes:

One particularly novel development is the introduction of hero units. These are warriors who have perfected a fighting art and can carve their way through enemy armies without much trouble at all. Based on mythologized historical figures like the warrior monk Benkei, hero units are a nearly unstoppable force on the battlefield, capable of holding bridge crossings against entire armies, or smashing through a battle line to engage the enemy general. You can counter heroes with the right tactics, such as filling them full of arrows, or by having your own hero units engage them in duels. The development team may even consider letting players use political manipulation to sway heroes away from each other.

Ie. the bold part, it'll offer clearly that the player (in SP) can exploit the AI a lot (for MP this is a complete other case).
While i like strong unique warrior (-units) of course, and it is also pretty realistic - but in this article this part sounds like a martial arts / fantasy movie content, and i hope S2TW won't be a satisfaction-game for the asian market, where exactly this is a common gameplay, just by concept a heroes game.
Naturally the player will focus on such units, and how will the AI compete with that? ... i'm tensed how CA will present/provide such contents.

[quadalpha]

I referred to this article http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/109/1093664p1.html, which gives a good roundup of the upcoming S2TW, and i like it.

I have sceptic thoughts about the last paragraph of the 1st page about the heroes:


Ie. the bold part, it'll offer clearly that the player (in SP) can exploit the AI a lot (for MP this is a complete other case).
While i like strong unique warrior (-units) of course, and it is also pretty realistic - but in this article this part sounds like a martial arts / fantasy movie content, and i hope S2TW won't be a satisfaction-game for the asian market, where exactly this is a common gameplay, just by concept a heroes game.
Naturally the player will focus on such units, and how will the AI compete with that? ... i'm tensed how CA will present/provide such contents.

I put that down to the hackneyed style of games journalists.

[A Nerd]

I like to think with all the complaints over the years about overpowered generals and the unrealisticness of kensai and the like that CA wouldn't make the same mistake in this 'going back to it's roots' STW2 game. I could be wrong though.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Well they're certainly going to be more powerful... but just how much matters. Cause a little is reasonable, and in the past they have made super humans.... (Sigh.) XD

Katatanks, and Jedi, and Kensai. My bro one time fought historic Nur Al-Din in MTW 1 and had to fight him across the entire battlefield. He wasn't even cavalry, he was just a spear unit guy. XD

[pevergreen]

I'd wait for official word on this one, really.

quadalpha: I remember your name but thats pretty much it. :no:

I've got the same level of info as everyone else at this stage. Hopefully they do another live Q&A, guess I'd take up that responsibility again.

[Nelson]

A hero would be powerful enough for me if I could just add him to a unit and thus increase that unit’s experience one level.

[Barkhorn1x]

A hero would be powerful enough for me if I could just add him to a unit and thus increase that unit’s experience one level.

C'mon man - that approach is for wimps.

I want:
- Hero unit to consist of ONE man - the HERO
- His mere presence on the battlefield will force peasants to route, samurai to quake and warrior monks to burn incense
- His sword should be LOOOONG and his B@lls HUGE

In short, give me UBER or don’t even bother.

;)

[Tsar Alexsandr]

C'mon man - that approach is for wimps.

I want:
- Hero unit to consist of ONE man - the HERO
- His mere presence on the battlefield will force peasants to route, samurai to quake and warrior monks to burn incense
- His sword should be LOOOONG and his B@lls HUGE

In short, give me UBER or don’t even bother.

;)

I agree these guys should be pretty impressive. But the ability to rout enemy armies by his presence will just get boring after a while. I like to fight, and if my hero is causing the enemy to rout before I get to... he's gonna have to stay home. XD

I just want them to be general units that are just a tad better. They could have unique models and abilities over regular generals. (Added bonus to attack or defense?) But if they're taking on armies by themselves and take your entire army to kill..... that's going a bit overboard. O_O

The Kensai from the original were too much, and so were the almighty Byzantine generals from MTW.

[A Nerd]

Imagine if heroes are slightly the oposite of what people fear? You get one hero after a number of turns, RPG him up well, send him into battle and he is cut down by archers or flanked by calvary and killed before he shreds those cowardly ashigaru! That would be quite funny and make the hero less desireable than an uber one! This probably won't be the case but still fun to consider. Will heroes have any abilities on the strat map? Duels and such? Or will dueling be done on the battlefield?

[quadalpha]

Imagine if heroes are slightly the oposite of what people fear? You get one hero after a number of turns, RPG him up well, send him into battle and he is cut down by archers or flanked by calvary and killed before he shreds those cowardly ashigaru! That would be quite funny and make the hero less desireable than an uber one! This probably won't be the case but still fun to consider. Will heroes have any abilities on the strat map? Duels and such? Or will dueling be done on the battlefield?

We don't know anything about the agents system yet, do we? That is one area which needs to be carefully designed because it can easily get bogged down.

[A Nerd]

Well if the Hero is on the strat map he could be placed in the army much like agents were in other TW titles and travel around with it, perhaps providing some unknown bonuses. Fight on the battle map if two armies met. On the strat map he could be placed on other heroes for duels or perhaps other agents or diaymo for other diplomatic purposes. The possibilites are endless! Well, they have their limits but you know what I mean.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I guess I just wanna see how this plays out lol.

A return to Shogun is very exciting though. :D

[seienchin]

Well the sword saints in the original were a step in the right way. Quite strong and they never rout, but they are no match for any units in the game in a one on one fight. It wasnt to unrealistic.
Still I hope the heroes dont die when hit by one musketvolley, that would be too much realism. But I guess you will have duells.

[hoom]

The OPness of Kensai in Shogun was dependant on the unit size.
1 Kensai vs 60 Yari Samurai on Normal = routed YS with significant loss.
2 Kensai vs 120 (or was it 160?) YS on Huge settings = good chance of dead Kensai.

I think a strong but low number unit representing the Hero & his guard/followers should be ok.
I hope to see them emerge from gameplay eg you need an individual soldier to reach a certain fairly high minimum honour rather than just being timed or purchasable.

Problem with a minimum honour level though is that you tend to get significant numbers of a unit reaching fairly high honour at once & you'd need these units to remain rare through a game.

[quadalpha]

The OPness of Kensai in Shogun was dependant on the unit size.
1 Kensai vs 60 Yari Samurai on Normal = routed YS with significant loss.
2 Kensai vs 120 (or was it 160?) YS on Huge settings = good chance of dead Kensai.

I think a strong but low number unit representing the Hero & his guard/followers should be ok.
I hope to see them emerge from gameplay eg you need an individual soldier to reach a certain fairly high minimum honour rather than just being timed or purchasable.

Problem with a minimum honour level though is that you tend to get significant numbers of a unit reaching fairly high honour at once & you'd need these units to remain rare through a game.

Maybe something like Civ's great people who emerge somewhat at random during battles between veteran units?

[seienchin]

The OPness of Kensai in Shogun was dependant on the unit size.
1 Kensai vs 60 Yari Samurai on Normal = routed YS with significant loss.
2 Kensai vs 120 (or was it 160?) YS on Huge settings = good chance of dead Kensai.

I think a strong but low number unit representing the Hero & his guard/followers should be ok.
I hope to see them emerge from gameplay eg you need an individual soldier to reach a certain fairly high minimum honour rather than just being timed or purchasable.

Problem with a minimum honour level though is that you tend to get significant numbers of a unit reaching fairly high honour at once & you'd need these units to remain rare through a game.

First of all. There were always only one Kensai per unit. No matter which unit size. And they werent able to beat a yari samurai unit one on one. Play Shogun again. ;)

[hoom]

You play it again. On the biggest unit size you got 2 per unit.

Though I concede a Kensai may not have been guaranteed to beat a YS unit even on Normal size.
I nearly always played the largest setting where you certainly couldn't trust a Kensai to beat a YS unit :shrug:
Which arguably could be described as underpowered in terms of value for money.
But a Kensai in the mix of a charge down a hill definitely gave a good morale penalty to the enemy & they could help to strengthen a weak part of the line where a YS might potentially suffer morale issues.

[A Nerd]

A kensai with low honor values (in my experience) would usually die after about 25 kills (castle gate rush experiement). Honor the fellow up however, and these guys became quite formidable indeed! They needed some micromanagement, they needed some resting here and there, but in custom battles if you kept your eye on them and with at least an honor of 4 or so they alone could inflict quite a few casualties. Seldom used them in campaign due to the amout of time to reseach and train them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oh, God. I used to make a point of bribing/assassinating generals just so I don't have to pack enough men around them so they don't run away.

Nice to see you here "old-timer!"

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I disagree. Some RPG elements add immersion and foster attachment to the characters. I think that if heroes are used sparingly and are not too uber then their addition will add a bit more spice to the procedings.

Heck, the most hard core WWII boardgame - Advanced Squad Leader - had hero generation under certain circumstances. Heroes are cool - AND fun.

August 2001...I am not worthy!!!

Glad to see you back here.

I used to love the old ASL heroes and leaders (wasn't your avatar one of the names in the game? I mean aside from the ace referant) system as well. It made it less "beer and pretzels" but did add a bit of spice.


I would actually like a couple of heroes and their retainers/dsiciples as a small unit. Like a second general's unit only combat only.

[Barkhorn1x]

August 2001...I am not worthy!!!

Glad to see you back here.


Oh I am king of the lurkers as I don't post too much. Perhaps that will change w/ this annoucement.



I used to love the old ASL heroes and leaders (wasn't your avatar one of the names in the game? I mean aside from the ace referant) system as well. It made it less "beer and pretzels" but did add a bit of spice.

ASL had some really great "chrome" rules; weapons breakdowns, sniper activation, squad experience level reductions, low ammo restrictions. But man did it take dedication to play.




I would actually like a couple of heroes and their retainers/dsiciples as a small unit. Like a second general's unit only combat only.

That sounds like a good approach.

[General Malaise]

Heroes should really be generated by in-games happenings rather than being based on historical timed events or, worse, simply recruited with proper money and/or tech. That is, if a soldier in a normal unit kills many enemies over time or in a big, important battle, particularly one where the odds were against him, then you should have the option to acknowledge his accomplishments and let him break off from the unit to become a hero unit with his own disciples or perhaps adopt him into the family and promote him to general also or instead.

[Nelson]

Heroes should really be generated by in-games happenings rather than being based on historical timed events or, worse, simply recruited with proper money and/or tech. That is, if a soldier in a normal unit kills many enemies over time or in a big, important battle, particularly one where the odds were against him, then you should have the option to acknowledge his accomplishments and let him break off from the unit to become a hero unit with his own disciples or perhaps adopt him into the family and promote him to general also or instead.

This is a good idea. I like the way subsequent games occasionally allowed a general to appear after a victory.

[A Nerd]

What do you think: should heroes fight on foot or on horseback? Perhaps both? Or should it depend on what background he came from (at this point in our understanding of heroes, that could be anything)? Though it could be from say a ND unit or a Yari Calvary unit using STW terminology.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

What do you think: should heroes fight on foot or on horseback? Perhaps both? Or should it depend on what background he came from (at this point in our understanding of heroes, that could be anything)? Though it could be from say a ND unit or a Yari Calvary unit using STW terminology.

I'd say horseback. But if it was both that'd be cool. :D

Like Musashi Miyamoto and Benkei fight on foot. Other guys use cavalry maybe? But Benkei and Musashi did use horses too. (I believe Musashi was in a cavalry unit in his role in the Shimbara rebellions.) Maybe just cav? : / Hmmm...

[hoom]

What do you think: should heroes fight on foot or on horseback? Perhaps both? Or should it depend on what background he came from (at this point in our understanding of heroes, that could be anything)? Though it could be from say a ND unit or a Yari Calvary unit using STW terminology. I'm hoping for it to be based on backgrounds so you'd get a variety of different Hero units eg Hero Cav, Hero Sohei, Hero Naginata, Hero Archers.

[Barkhorn1x]

I'm hoping for it to be based on backgrounds so you'd get a variety of different Hero units eg Hero Cav, Hero Sohei, Hero Naginata, Hero Archers.

I second that opinion.

[Togakure]

It would be nice if we were given the option to allow Heros or not in the game setup. This would allow those who like them to enjoy them, and those who don't to play without them. A simple check box which would allow or defeat the code that produces them would do the trick.

[Gregoshi]

It would be nice if we were given the option to allow Heros or not in the game setup. This would allow those who like them to enjoy them, and those who don't to play without them. A simple check box which would allow or defeat the code that produces them would do the trick.
I agree that check boxes for a number of game options would be fantastic, but I wonder at the impact of such things on the complexity of the AI programming. I guess it depends upon where the impact of heroes fall in the game: strategic, battle or both.

[O'Hea]

The best historical example we have of something like a hero fighting a whole unit was Musashi against the Yoshioka school, about 100 men armed with bows, swords, and spears. He won by fighting them in a forest, where their bows were ineffective and he could easily dart in and out of view, killing their leader, and then raiding the hell out of them until they ran off in confusion. In other words: micro.

Heroes will either be overpowered, or too much work, or only useful for roleplaying/strat map purposes.

[mic1402]

yeah i like that idea, they would have to be managed heavily or they would be killed quickly.