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View Full Version : How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?



Kagemusha
09-02-2010, 02:55
Hi, I thought of posting this thread in order to ask, could there be something Org could do to better serve the needs of MP community,Clans and individual players? Could we create any features.forums etc. that would be helpfull? If you have any ideas, those are more then wellcome.:bow:

Sp00n
09-02-2010, 09:13
Kage after spending a fair few minutes reading a pointless thread in another TW Forum where they couln't comprehend why we could possibly need a separate MP forum for Shogun prior to release this is a breath of fresh air.

Andres posted a fair few good points which I've copied over some are already covered.

Things that pop in to mind:

- to already work on the organisation of the MP community, i.e. gathering clan leaders to work on projects like tournaments or general chitchat on how to do things (MP community events?);
- discussing MP related issues - making suggestions: balancing, chat foyer, unit stats, interesting maps,stuff to prevent cheating;
- better in a seperate forum so the discussion can go deeper;
- to build on the "community feeling", playing MP is a "social event", so to speak, so it can only benefit the community if people can already get to know each other better;

Recruitment may be another one although it probably is a little bit early atm.

:P

Andres
09-02-2010, 10:15
Something that is already possible now, is creating social groups.

I don't know a lot of the MP community, but I figure something like a social group for clan leaders only could be very useful.

Kagemusha
09-02-2010, 10:37
Sp00n thank you for your ideas.More we know about your needs, better we can develop the forum.:bow:

Monk
09-02-2010, 11:16
Recruitment may be another one although it probably is a little bit early atm.

Mentioned this elsewhere and privately, but I am gonna say it here so it's as out as possible. I don't have any problems running clan recruitment articles for the front page. If you'd like to advertise with us, send me a PM and I can make it happen.

If clans take advantage of this, what is likely to happen is I'll group all ads together to be posted on the same day (maybe once a week or as needed). ~:)

Andres
09-02-2010, 11:31
I already told Tomisama in private, but might as well throw this out in the open. We can also publish articles about tournaments, competitions and other MP events on our frontpage; so by all means, if you have TW MP news that needs to be spread, just say the word. Not just for S2 TW MP, but all TW MP news.

:bow:

Sp00n
09-02-2010, 11:31
TBH guys looking at the NTW Multiplayer section its got most of what I'd expect we need for Shogun 2, I'm sure Clan Leaders and other Multi Players have stuff to add though.

From my point of view I always used theorg as the place to get my MP news, patches and latest maps in Shogun and MTW MP days. The frontpage had all the latest news SP and MP wise and tournys were advertised. Pretty much what Andres is talking about above.

Not sure if we'll have all these options due to how NTWs run atm on steam with no user map creation etc.

drone
09-02-2010, 16:02
The Org has a wiki, this might be useful somehow.

AggonyDuck
09-02-2010, 19:24
The biggest issue is that the MP community isn't at the .org. It is pointless to try serve someone who isn't here. The MP community these days is largely centred around tournament forums, meaning that if you want to bring the MP community here, you need to start hosting tournaments here and promote them aggressively. That again is fairly hard due to the whole Junior Membership thing.

Tera
09-02-2010, 22:00
Thanks for starting this thread.

I think what Duck and Sp00n mentioned above, fused together, holds the key to make The Org the central hub for the multiplayer community. This is no pie in the sky - this website was extremely strong with the community for years. However, The Org needs to be aggressively pro-active in its approach:

- Have an organized forum structure which caters well for the MP community.

- Organize large-scale multiplayer tournaments on a regular basis and try to get official, CA-backed prizes for them (like the wallpaper competition). CA knows about us, CA loves the Org. Remember that we are by far the oldest fansite around and this website has promoted Total War games for over ten years now.

- Be the place-to-be for multi player news. During my two years as website administrator here there were almost daily news posts about the latest news (and sometimes even gossip) coming from the community. New tournaments, new clans, game updates, patch info, new websites, tournament updates, a 'Featured Website' every week - the works. This was part of what made people log to the Org mainpage everyday: there was a clear connection between the MP community and the website. I'm happy to see that the mainpage is up and running again now; but there is ample room for growth.

- Apart from its in-house tournaments, the Org can easily host or sponsor other peoples' ideas and websites. Instead of having the organizers creating their own forum for the tournament/event, they could host it right here. But the Org staff needs to go "out there" to get these people. They don't just "come". We need to hunt.

- Last but not least, to do the above, some of the key staff needs to be heavily involved in the multiplayer world: playing the game everyday, knowing the people and the clans, the ins and outs of the game and generally up-to-date with the daily happenings. If The Org doesn't have them right now, you need to recruit. Hiring some the "big fish" in the community is one of the keys to attracting the right crowd of people. It's the way the world works. For example, in STW, having Magyar, AMP or any of the other "cream" of the MP community posting here regularly gave prestige to the forums and almost automatically attracted the rest of the MP crowd.

People go where the buzz is.

Just some ideas.

Andres
09-02-2010, 23:15
- Have an organized forum structure which caters well for the MP community.

That, we can do. An idea that was mentioned a while ago to me in private was to provide "infrastructure" for new clans. Most clans that are already up and running have their own site and forum, but new(er) clans could start here in a dedicated subforum, partially hidden for non clan members if need be. They could use the .Org as their home until they have their own site or forum. Or they can just stick around here. Existing clans could have a subforum too, I think. The modding section has a subforum for each mod; so I guess this could be done for MP as well.


- Organize large-scale multiplayer tournaments on a regular basis and try to get official, CA-backed prizes for them (like the wallpaper competition). CA knows about us, CA loves the Org. Remember that we are by far the oldest fansite around and this website has promoted Total War games for over ten years now.

With a bit of cooperation of the MP community, this should be doable.

If there's a big tournament coming up, the people in charge can contact staff here and we can then contact the people at CA. A bit of back-and-forth e-mailing and the organisation of the tournament should know within a day or two if CA sponsors or not.

For smaller tournaments, we can work with .Org prices, like badges and such.

A lot is possible.


- Be the place-to-be for multi player news. During my two years as website administrator here there were almost daily news posts about the latest news (and sometimes even gossip) coming from the community. New tournaments, new clans, game updates, patch info, new websites, tournament updates, a 'Featured Website' every week - the works. This was part of what made people log to the Org mainpage everyday: there was a clear connection between the MP community and the website. I'm happy to see that the mainpage is up and running again now; but there is ample room for growth.

Indeed, there is. And growth is what we're working at right now. We made a start, but now we need to continue the work. Staff and community together.


- Apart from its in-house tournaments, the Org can easily host or sponsor other peoples' ideas and websites. Instead of having the organizers creating their own forum for the tournament/event, they could host it right here. But the Org staff needs to go "out there" to get these people. They don't just "come". We need to hunt.

:bow:

About the "hunting part"; that's true.The MP ers here can already help us with that.


- Last but not least, to do the above, some of the key staff needs to be heavily involved in the multiplayer world: playing the game everyday, knowing the people and the clans, the ins and outs of the game and generally up-to-date with the daily happenings. If The Org doesn't have them right now, you need to recruit. Hiring some the "big fish" in the community is one of the keys to attracting the right crowd of people. It's the way the world works. For example, in STW, having Magyar, AMP or any of the other "cream" of the MP community posting here regularly gave prestige to the forums and almost automatically attracted the rest of the MP crowd.

Good point, again.

Keep the ideas and suggestions coming :2thumbsup:

Magyar Khan
09-03-2010, 05:29
Get the attention of the non-org visitors on the other boards..... imagine you get online for totalwar and end up at .com.... where u make a post and in an hour its on page 3, pushed away by a lot of silly multidoubled posts if a tsunami is in the game and such. So how do we get them in here...... cant we have a sticky thread at .com pointing to us here?

What also would help us are posts from the CA staff..... how painfull this was for them in the past... how joyful we would have to make it for them now..... :)

Sp00n
09-03-2010, 11:18
The biggest issue is that the MP community isn't at the .org. It is pointless to try serve someone who isn't here. The MP community these days is largely centred around tournament forums, meaning that if you want to bring the MP community here, you need to start hosting tournaments here and promote them aggressively. That again is fairly hard due to the whole Junior Membership thing.

While I understand TW has changed as Tera said the Orgs got a long history with CA, CA are shouting loudly about how MP is going to be huge in Shogun 2, its already been mentioned about getting a link to theorg at the totalwar site and they are posting us updates on the game which is great to have.

I know its a long way off but what are the chances of engaging them about the possibility of theorg hosting a close to release launch MP tournament for Shogun 2 which they could sponsor (sure they did something similar with Shogun with a Sword prize?).

One thing theorg will have is the old Shogun/MTW veterans and Shogun 2s media coverage hasnt yet hit anywhere near the heights it will nearer launch meaning I'd expect a lot more to start returning.

IMO there is not a site out there that has the history or is as good as theorg for MP Totalwar, if you think the main problem is getting coverage then what better way to get the current community over here mixing with the old one than the first S2 MP tourny, that together with the clan and tourny tools/information that we have been talking about could help to keep them here once you get them.

TotalWar's 10th Anniversary Tourny at TheOrg has a ring to it.

Don't know how possible this is but just a thought.

:laugh4:

tibilicus
09-05-2010, 03:33
Much depends on how the game does. In all honesty, it's kind of hard to put forward ideas before the games is released. If the product is garbage, then there wont be a strong community to suffice.

Assuming the game turns out ok though, the basic idea has been suggested above. Scratch the MP community's back, and it should scratch ours. CA say they have "big things" planned for MP this time round and, if this is true, the .Org should do everything possible to pounce on such an opportunity. Far too much traffic has gone towards twcentre in recent years but I believe that if we offer the community something right of the bat, tournaments ect, the .org will be able to establish itself as the MP forum for S2TW.

I hope though no matter what comes up, the staff will be more than enthusiastic to get involved. I remembered being frustrated during my brief time as assistant mod in the way that no one really seemed to care about MP any more (this was around the time of M2TW). I tried to get some things done, like promote external tournaments but no one really seemed interested. Anyway, in my opinion, speed is key. We need to react to the game and organise ourselves before it hits. Worse comes to worse and it flops, at least we can say we tried to bring MP back to the .Org.

UglyElmo2
09-05-2010, 05:28
Well if Magy is taking the time to post here again, I guess I will add my 2 cents as well:

Some things which need to change here to attract the MP crowd:

1. A separate part of the forum, which has unlimited access to it. No introduction forum, where one has to prove oneself worthy before being allowed to participate in the rest of the forum. That is a bummer for a lot of new players coming here and you lose a great many of them because of it. I agree with them, it does make this forum appear anti-social, and a bit arrogant. I know most of the patrons are not so, but new players probably think we are a bunch of elitist snobs. As for the rest of forum, it can remain restricted, but the MP section should be full-access to new patrons.

2. The attitude must change for a few of the more opinionated members here. They need to encourage new MP players and not continually bombard them with old discussions of how lousy the current game is compared to past TW games, etc . . .

3. I agree with the above posters as well concerning who is allowed to moderate the MP forum. Maybe let the MP community select who they would like as moderators for the MP forum, and then make sure that only they, and Tosa are allowed to take moderating actions in this MP section. The moderators should be intimately familiar with the past MP community and the current MP community (Maybe one moderator each: An old veteran and a new veteran), with the other .org moderators/admins taking on an observation-only role, informing the MP moderators (and Tosa) of any problems. Allowing the MP moderators to be the sole guardians and policemen of the MP section will help reduce many of the problems occurring here in the past. The reason being, the MP section of a forum is a unique entity. By its very nature it is a bit more wild and unrestrained, than other parts of the forum. Competition leads to heightened emotions and arguments can get very boisterous. When moderators not familiar with MP interfere, it causes problems. As most of you have recognized the .org is sorely lacking in MP participation and I believe the main reason is due to unnecessary moderator interference. By having just one, or two MP moderators (and Tosa), actively moderating the MP forum, new players will be more likely to respect the rules, and any moderator actions, without leaving the .org and taking many others with them. The other mod/admins here can participate in discussions, just not take moderator actions or PM MP patrons with warnings etc . . That should be the sole duty of the MP moderators and Tosa.

3. Offering space for tournaments and leagues would also help the .org attract more of the MP community. There is no one place for MP players to go to discussion MP issues right now. In my opinion the current game TW lobby isn't set up to encourage such discussions and isn't really set up for hosting tournaments/leagues. The .org would make a good place for everyone to meet to set up matches, show results, and talk about MP issues.

4. If CA is serious about MP this time, they should have someone begin participating here, before Shogun 2's release. Even if it is only a few times a week, a post or two here would go a long way towards attracting MP players to the .org and it would benefit CA as well, helping improve its bad public image (with the MP community).

5. It would not take much effort to make the .org THE MP forum. With Shogun 2, and its imminent release bringing back quite a few old vets, now is the perfect time to improve the .org's image within the MP community. The problem is: Is the .org willing to change? Are its members and moderator/admins willing to give up a bit of their control as well as shelving their past grievances with CA and the new TW games, to allow new players (and the enthusiasm they ultimately bring) to flourish? I hope so, or these discussions are pointless.

I am sure there are many more things which could be done to help bring the .org up to its past glory days, but the above items are ones that first came to my mind, and ones I believe need be addressed first to insure success.

PS: Good to see a bunch of old men (and an old woman or two) back participating and playing TW again. :)

Togakure
09-05-2010, 09:11
Some counterpoint:

Regarding 2, above: a person's opinion is a person's opinion. As long as it is stated within the boundaries of the forum rules, it should not be censored, nor should a "negative" position taken by a group be censored simply because others don't agree with it--even if those others represent a majority or "elite" group. Without comparative discussions about what is and what was, good and bad, significant improvement is not likely. That one doesn't agree with another's "attitude" is not a good reason to censor on a discussion forum.

Regarding 3, above: I believe part of what is being suggested is already in effect: moderators are currently assigned to a given forum or forums, and only have moderator authority in those forums. The current moderators of these MP forums may not be heavily involved with MP now, but I know Gregoshi played some MP back in the day, and perhaps Kagemusha has intentions.

While I agree that the MP forum mods should be familiar with the goings-on of the MP community and MP history here, I don't think they need to be hyperactive in MP to be effective moderators. It's not such a big mystery, nor are the subtleties so hard to fathom, or deal with. Many experienced MPers here would not make good moderators because they do not possess the qualities that make for a good mod (me, for example). Though he may not have played as much MP as many others here, Gregoshi is intimately familiar with the kind of stuff that has gone down here before, and I can think of few who possess his fairness and shrewd judgment as to when--and how--to step in and moderate. Kagemusha has demonstrated good moderator qualities thus far. I can see no reason to criticize either at this point (not that there was any criticism implicit in the suggestion).

My two koku.

UglyElmo2
09-05-2010, 09:55
Togakure: Looking at your profile I see we are clanmates. I joined the Hunter Clan a few years ago, though my participation was limited due to work and family. :) Nice to meet you.

I agree with your point about opinions, everyone has their own unique take on things. Unfortunately, in the recent past, certain individuals here took it upon themselves to berate those who came here to discuss the latest game. These same individuals belittled the new patron's opinions and pretty much chased several of them away because they actually had the gall to enjoy the current TW game. Even though these .org veterans were within the forum rules, it still had the effect of chasing away individuals who were interested in participating in MP discussions here. Which is why I said the attitude needs to change, not be moderated or edited out, or censored. It's more the way certain patrons say things and not the things they say which become a problem. One can always be within the forum rules yet aggravate the heck out of people until they finally leave in distaste.

Concerning the forum moderators with each having their own forums to moderate, this may be true, I have not been here for awhile. My past experience here saw a few moderators (I'm not even sure if they are still here) interfering in discussions which did not concern them, since it wasn't the forum they were assigned. As far as Gregoshi and the other moderators, the reason we are discussing changes here is to attract new patrons for the MP forum. I think Gregoshi and most of the other moderators here do a good job of keeping things under control, however since they may not be very well known within the current MP community, I suggested the MP community choose who they would like to moderate their forum here at the .org. This would create a better environment for the reasons I stated in my previous post. Who knows, the community might very well choose Gregoshi and Kage. Just the fact they had a small choice in the matter would make MP patrons more likely to follow the rules.

Also, there ARE nuances to take into account when moderating the MP community. If a moderator is not familiar with them, there is a very good possibility of a mass exodus, like happened here before when the .Net forums were formed. Now is a good time to start anew. Since this MP section is to be a new subforum, I see no problem in having the MP community vote for whom they would like to moderate over it. It would not take away from any current moderators duties, but would be adding two more. If Tosa and the others do not like the two moderators chosen, they can ask for another vote . . or better yet, have the MP community here offer up a list of acceptable moderators and have Tosa and the other mod/admins here choose two.

The idea of having an old veteran and a new veteran moderate is due to the fact there is a schism in the MP community: The older veterans think the younger veterans should show a bit more respect given the older vets' long-time participation in the community, and the younger veterans think the older veterans look down upon the younger vets' opinions and skills. Having a moderator from each distinct group, might help alleviate this perception.

Feels good to talk about MP issues again with people who care about MP. :)

Swoosh So
09-05-2010, 10:41
The main thing for me is that the moderator whoever it is should be active in the game.

Tera
09-05-2010, 13:14
I think we should make a clear distinction between moderators and administrators.

A moderator's role is to in a way, 'police' his given forum. It is mostly a reactive/passive job since 95% of the moderator's actions are reactions to someone's else actions. Basic knowledge of the topics discussed in his assigned forum is critical because he needs to properly assess, judge and take action on any situation that might arise. However, above all, the moderator must possess good social skills, good judgement, common sense and leadership qualities. He does not need to have a deep knowledge of the matter or be very involved in the multi player world.

On the other hand, an administrator's role is active. They dictate website and forum policy, create & execute ideas and keep the website and forums up-to-date. Their actions and attitudes will directly translate into what The Org is communicating to the outside world. If the website leaders don't give a crap about multi player or do not properly cater for the MP world, it will show and people will leave the forum. As Elmo says, this is part of the reason TotalWars.Net was created and why almost everyone who played STW/MTW online migrated from here to there. On the other hand, if the administrators are deeply involved in the multiplayer world, the site will reap benefits. For example ...
- seeing continuously updated multiplayer news on the frontpage communicates that The Org cares about the MP world
- seeing TotalWar.Org staff in the foyer and in online games communicates that The Org is really into multiplayer.
- The administrators will be in a position to gain the attention & confidence of online players
- It will be far easier to organize tournaments and other events
- The Org will be relevant again when it comes to who's who and what's happening in the multiplayer world.

To sum it up, I think the Org seriously needs some 100% crazy, multiplayer addicts in their administration line-up, not in their moderator staff. Of course, this doesn't mean recruiting the first high ranking idiot that comes across, but rather taking a courageous step to break the status quo and recruit key, relevant leaders in the multiplayer world.

Togakure
09-05-2010, 16:33
Hmm. There is something to be said about an administration that remains neutral and relatively uninvolved--or at least, uninfluenced to any great degree. Ahem ... we all know what can happen when administrators get carried away ... *cough*

You are rather audacious, Mr. Tera, lol. I like that.

Administration approves and maintains policy, but doesn't necessarily set it exclusively. I especially disklike the word "dictate." An admin who is good at what s/he does rarely has to dictate anything. The administration here has ever been open to suggestions and has accommodated many. That it has also been cautious of anything that even remotely threatens stability, security, and overall purpose of the board--which is not limited to MP--is understandable, expected, even. I'm not so sure forum administration and community leadership should be one in the same. Division/balance of power can be a very good thing.

True leadership requires no title, no appointed power. MagyarKhan didn't achieve the level of influence he has because he ran a board or a clan--he became a clan leader because he is a leader, demonstrated by his skill in game, and his ability to attract and retain the respect and loyalty of others. Though he's arguably the most well-known leader in the MP community of old, he isn't the only one. There were many others like him, you, Tera, among them.

I agree that the community needs some 100% crazy MP fanatics to lead, motivate, plan, organize, control and execute. I believe that, if the MP game is good, these will arise as a matter of course. They'll use the Org as a resource as they see fit--or not. They have options now that they didn't have back in the day. What happened before that led to the creation of the .NET was unfortunate, but I don't think the blame lies on either side. Both have responsibility. If anything, we should learn from that whole scene and not let it happen again. Both the community leaders and the administration here have a stake in that. Build consensus, be willing to compromise. Don't cross those arms and jut that chin; don't run off and reinvent the wheel. Work together.

But let's not re-open that coffin too far (Krast might pop out). My point is, I believe community leadership and forum administration are two different things that might very well be better kept separate. As long as the administration here is supportive of reasonable initiatives brought up by community leaders, it should be fine.

Tera
09-05-2010, 17:47
Good one Toga :-) Perhaps I was a little too extreme in the choice of words. However, the gist of the argument is that The Org must work hard to build strong bridges with the MP community, and for that to happen, the website needs the proper tools, including human resources.

I wish to branch the discussion in a new direction: We're attracting all the oldies, but where are the new people who are excited about STW2? This forum is a tomb compared to the activity brewing at TWCenter in the STW2 forums. What's the story about that?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-05-2010, 22:14
Call me a fanatic, but I believe this for the past 6 years 3 months now. I always thought MP players should run their own stuff on forums as Moderators/Admins. Call me a 19 century militaristic Prussian, but as much as I enjoy and respect our SP crew, I just think MP players are better at handing their own problems since they can relate to it.



:idea2:

UglyElmo2
09-06-2010, 00:34
My point is, I believe community leadership and forum administration are two different things that might very well be better kept separate. As long as the administration here is supportive of reasonable initiatives brought up by community leaders, it should be fine.

Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.

Togakure
09-06-2010, 02:55
Good one Toga :-) Perhaps I was a little too extreme in the choice of words. However, the gist of the argument is that The Org must work hard to build strong bridges with the MP community, and for that to happen, the website needs the proper tools, including human resources.

I wish to branch the discussion in a new direction: We're attracting all the oldies, but where are the new people who are excited about STW2? This forum is a tomb compared to the activity brewing at TWCenter in the STW2 forums. What's the story about that?
I need to go over to the TWC and observe at length. When I went there some years ago I disliked it intensely, but I imagine much has changed since then. Are there a lot of MP enthusiasts over there? Does the TWC show enthusiastic support of their MP community? Do they have consistent recognizable community leaders like we do/did?

I'd never thought that the Junior Membership process might be somewhat of a roadblock until others criticized it here recently. I haven't really considered the implications of it but obviously others here have. That's something that should be looked at if it is having a negative effect on getting new people in here.

Regarding attracting new peeps: I remember vividly when I was new to MP, here and in the STW foyer. "Vets" and clannies can be rather intimidating to newbs, particularly when they're together in their social groups. I think many took pleasure in making newbs feel small and stupid. Even now, "oldies" still cling together, give each other shout-outs and pats on the back--while pretty much ignoring unknowns and SPers, etc.. I don't think any disrespect or exclusion is intended--but it happens anyway sometimes. We all know how cliques work, how they can effect others on the "outside." So, what will we do to balance that out? Org staffers make it a point to welcome newcomers directly--this is a good start. "Vets" would do well to do the same. Their acknowledgments carry a lot of weight ....

I think many SPers who might be quite good at MP avoid it because they are somewhat intimidated by the veteran MPers and their cliques. This is sad. I was one of those, but found myself with an excess of time on my hands and decided to subdue my "fear" and try it out. Luckily, I found some cool guys (or they found me) who befriended me, showed me the basics and helped me acclimatize. A HUGE shout-out to them; they know who they are and epitomize what "honor" is in a gaming environment.

I guess my point is, veteran MPers can help attract new talent by openly welcoming new players and encouraging them to participate, being consistently friendly, being considerate of their ideas--even when we know what they are suggesting isn't practical--and actively including them in what we do. I tend to climb up on my pedestal and shout angrily on the subject of "elitism" when I see elitist behavior and structures that support it because it alienates. Everyone should be included and respected unless/until they demonstrate consistently that they are not worthy of that inclusion/respect. Such judgment should not be made flippantly. If a new player felt welcomed and respected--despite their lack of knowledge or experience--then I think more would be inclined to get involved. In time, they too will become knowledgeable and experienced, and we all stand to benefit from their shared insights.

This doesn't mean we have to be weak and accommodating when evaluating skills and training newcomers on the battlefield. That is a separate matter. The cub-to-adult process is brilliant and has produced some fantastic players who wouldn't be as good if they'd been coddled "politely." But community involvement is different. We would do well to distinguish between the two.

This is a good topic to focus on now, being that a community is people, and we would do well to increase our numbers and active involvement.

Rambling ... sorry. It is indeed good to talk about things MP with others who have a passion for MP.

Togakure
09-06-2010, 03:00
Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.
I hear you, UglyElmo2. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I will say this: Often, to get, we must give. Often, to forget, we must forgive. Who will take the initiative? Who should doesn't matter ... who will?

With respect ....

tibilicus
09-06-2010, 03:19
Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.

This was done for M2TW I believe. Me and another person (the name slips me) were put forward to moderate the MP forum. Unfortunately, as total war history will tell us, M2TW was a bit of a let down and within a couple of months the forum was practically dead. If I remember correctly, the other nominated mod didn't actually turn up for work and I was kicked from the role due to a couple of months of inactivity without so much as a PM. Fair enough I was inactive, but it's not like there was a heavy flow of posts which needed to be moderated..

Anyway, back on topic, the one down side with such a nominated moderator system is that certain people from certain bits of the community would generally be put forward as names to moderate. Much then depends on how big the game is and how big the community is here. If we assume the community will be us plus a few others, then a nomination system would work fine. If it is bigger than we anticipate however, nominating moderators can often lead to cries of there being some sort of insiders "clique". It's kind of hard to explain but there was a debate in the watchtower a couple of months back where some people suggested the .org itself was a big "clique". This is of course a subjective observation and one I disagree with but it's also one some people perceive as accurate. Some people might be put of by this image of an inclusive .org clique but equally others might see it as attractive.

I do however generally agree with such an idea but I just thought it would be best to show the other side of the coin so that if such a thing comes about, it can be implemented correctly.

Gregoshi
09-06-2010, 04:46
Good discussion so far. :2thumbsup: Lots of good points to discuss and consider, both from the Org side and community side.

I have been pleasantly surprised at all the discussions that have popped up in the new forum. Comparatively speaking, the Dojo II has turned into a desert since this forum came to be. However, I too have noticed it is pretty much a retired veterans' club - where are the new clans? If we want this to become the focal point for S2TW MP, we must all become ambassadors. If you hear mention of new/unknown clans talking about S2TW, take it upon yourself to find them and engage them in discussion via email, chat, their clan forums, etc and invite them to join the discussions here. Welcoming of new players or new clans is a must if we want to grow the MP community. We will also have to be careful and not ram the "STW MP was soooo much better than the crap MP the TW series has now" attitude down the newer players' throats - the bitter old man syndrome if you will.

And as for moderation of MP forum(s), I recognize I am not well suited to moderating such forums and have said so to the Org staff. I volunteered to help moderate this forum with Kage for the time being in these early stages of the game's development until better and more suitable moderators are assigned.

:bow:

UglyElmo2
09-06-2010, 08:26
Don't get me wrong Gregoshi: I think you are very capable of moderating the MP forum. :) You have the personality for it, as well as Kage. The reason I stated the .org may want to have the MP community vote for the moderators in this new section, is to disprove what Tibiculus stated as a perceive clique. Though, I also understand Tibiculus' thoughts about how the voting could also be perceived in such a manner. It's quite a conundrum. :)

I think the first step which needs to be taken is opening up this section of the forum to new patrons without them having to go through the introduction/waiting period. Otherwise, I think you will find people will not be willing to join here. This is probably the main reason some people feel the .org is a clique and not an open forum.

Kocmoc
09-06-2010, 09:52
Since many speak about the past. The current situation, as far i can see, was caused by the general opinion of how this game has to played - SP.
I remember endless discussion about this matter and it was always the same, this of course did lead to the situation, no Tourneys, hardly some clear positioning.

Newer clans are not here, as far i can see, without them this cant/wont work. How to suddenly attract those player?
If i see Gregoshi ask where are the new clans are, i ask myself, why the ORG took that way?
I remember the "NET" times, people always since then wanted more room for the MP part of the game, but the ORG didnt deliver!

We become older, Im sure, that many of the old guys are more than willing to help to build something up here.

A good point came up with some good player becoming a moderator here, this is more than needed. It was always a big problem to argue with moderators here who maybe played a bit online, but was far away from being a real good player. I made a post about what i expect from the ORG concerning tourneys. As i dont know how other guys organize there tourneys, i guess that the current hosts still face the same old problems, at least i didnt found a tool on steam to help organize a tourney.

I brought up this tool and want to mention it once again.

You all surely saw the "Table" of the football WM, there you always see this windows where the names of the Teams are written in. The amount thins out more and more and in the end you see just 2 windows which remain the last 2 teams. (I hope that is good explained from me...). This tool i expect here at the ORG. Its pretty easy to work with, in the first line you enter all the names of the player who want to take part, this can be done by the organizer or the player itself.

Now the easy part, which usually takes ages to actualize, after the 2 player played their game, the winner (actual he is the guy who has still interest) come here and write his name in the "second line", if the loser found that the winner did cheat or whatever he can speak to the moderater od the tourney.
This tool would speed a tourney up like hell, my tourney back in mtw was 200+ player strong and we did need 4 weeks to finish it - here you found the tourney - www.kocmoc.de

You could play surely 5-6 games in one day, assuming that a game takes 1h, that would be 32 or 64 player.


That tool is just an example of what could be done. Also i have never used Steam before, so im not the guy who could say something about it, what i saw was an extra unit you can get,
if you join a certain TW group on Steam. If this is possible, why the ORG with the help of CA doesnt get a deal done with Steam?

Replay´s. If i did learn something in another game, than that the people love spectating, they love to watch the better player playing a battle.
The Org should install ( right now, you dont need to wait for Shogun2) a site here, where player can upload their games.
We also could stream tourney fights, the software is out and easy to use. It needs to get promoted.

If shogun2 will really hold what CA actual promise, than we will see tons of new player and the young people today love watching. I know some use youtube, other have their own sites...
Org need the traffic and the space to host this, if the ORG cant deliver it, you can use Youtube and kinds implement it here, so it look nice at least.

I doubt that this place has any trouble to be a big meeting point, especially as the old clans, if they really come back, will rule it. This is the big advance.
You got all the big player still, now you can mix up some old memories, i know that Mag still has the 3v3 Allstart replay, of AMP, Mag and me. This are memories, get something from the old spirits in here.

The mob always runs to the winner, if the ORG contains almost all the winner, the sheeps will follow.
This said, hold the hands of the top oldtimer a bit and you already won.

Without knowing what CA is planning, i personal would create an official playernote, which contains personal infos, but also a lot of statistics.
This infos can be used to get a quick look at the player, since there are Steam achievements, why not give some more? Won a tourney, won two tourneys... and so on, more MP marks.

If i met a player online id like to know, how many percent of his games hes winning, which maps he mostly play on, he defend? He use art?
How long his battles last average?

What about the old Clanwar belt? or other longrun "tourneys", we always made it ourself, there was no help from the ORG or other places, there could be each weekend the fight for the belt.
It has to get organised, it needs preparation. If help is needed im more than willing to support and help where i can.

I have endless ideas, this just would take too long now to bring em all up.

Koc


edit: In another tread we spoke about communication. I saw, that Steam offer some kind of Team Speak.
What about, if the ORG would host a TS3 server? Im not sure, how good the Steam TS is, i just know that TS3 cause some very small extra latency, which is more than important these days.

Within the "ORG-TS" you could give each Clan who register at the ORG their own clanchannel.


What about different languages? While it might be a problem in the first place, there could be a some room for different languages, i give you the german elite clan and the spanish celtiberos.
Both got many players at those times and with more player becoming active in MP, the different languages could be interesting.
Why not offer player who lack english skills, like me, some space to get help in their own languages?
Some basics maybe, some help, i personal would like to help german players, other might want to help people from their country as well.

If the ORG runs tourneys, it would be more than helpful to write the rules not only in english, just one example.

Sp00n
09-06-2010, 12:39
Good discussion so far. :2thumbsup: Lots of good points to discuss and consider, both from the Org side and community side.

I have been pleasantly surprised at all the discussions that have popped up in the new forum. Comparatively speaking, the Dojo II has turned into a desert since this forum came to be. However, I too have noticed it is pretty much a retired veterans' club - where are the new clans? If we want this to become the focal point for S2TW MP, we must all become ambassadors. If you hear mention of new/unknown clans talking about S2TW, take it upon yourself to find them and engage them in discussion via email, chat, their clan forums, etc and invite them to join the discussions here. Welcoming of new players or new clans is a must if we want to grow the MP community. We will also have to be careful and not ram the "STW MP was soooo much better than the crap MP the TW series has now" attitude down the newer players' throats - the bitter old man syndrome if you will.

And as for moderation of MP forum(s), I recognize I am not well suited to moderating such forums and have said so to the Org staff. I volunteered to help moderate this forum with Kage for the time being in these early stages of the game's development until better and more suitable moderators are assigned.

:bow:

Its early days we have no details on MP and I think the pair of you have done a fine job so far, basically atm all we can do is throw around ideas, I do think the number 1 priority in this time should be to get theorg promoted more hopefully by getting some sort of tie in with CA TW site and or steam.
Has gone very quite here again since since the initial Shogun annoucement apart from the handful of old vets still posting.

drone
09-06-2010, 14:33
I think the first step which needs to be taken is opening up this section of the forum to new patrons without them having to go through the introduction/waiting period. Otherwise, I think you will find people will not be willing to join here. This is probably the main reason some people feel the .org is a clique and not an open forum.
Just a quick point. A while back (a couple of years ago?), the Junior Members were given access to most of the forum, and not kept confined to the Entrance Hall. If I'm not mistaken, they have access to all game-related sub-forums. They still can't edit posts, and might have some other restrictions, but they can take part in the game discussions as soon as they join up.

Magyar Khan
09-06-2010, 20:59
I dont think clanleaders should be a moderator per say.... from what i see now the org mods do fine as long they stick to moderating, watching and reminding people to stay within some area..... I dont think it will be a good idea to make a clanleader a moderator here..... perhaps it would be better if the mods are not that much invloved in everything but i can imagine that they have close lines to the clanleaders or such.... but it should not be excaggerated.... if a mods role gets too important he may be on the wrong course anyway....

A like the idea of a place to upload replays.... where people can discuss them and rate them like in warcraft3 http://tft.replayers.com
I play warcraft myself and somethimes its nice to observe while im working or eating.... :o)

A different clan forum would be handy where rules are obeyed..... and a Warzone would be handy for all nasty stuff.... perhaps passworded to keep the accidential visitor out.... a simple pass but a pass...

What would be of very big help is that the org supports the members major voice when it comes to wishlists and patching.... this is what i missed many years ago... ofcourse much is debatable concerning this subject but its a challenge to try this time....

UglyElmo2
09-07-2010, 01:58
Just a quick point. A while back (a couple of years ago?), the Junior Members were given access to most of the forum, and not kept confined to the Entrance Hall. If I'm not mistaken, they have access to all game-related sub-forums. They still can't edit posts, and might have some other restrictions, but they can take part in the game discussions as soon as they join up.

You may be right Drone. I haven't been here for awhile and I am not sure what changes have been made since. :)

Kagemusha
09-07-2010, 13:08
Thank you guys for a tons of great ideas coming out.:bow: I am also glad that again and again issues that are currently talked in the staff, pop up also in the talks here. That tells me that atleast we are picking up some signs correctly from the community. I also wellcome any ideas concerning moderation/ moderators. Like Greg mentioned currently we are a temporary solution at the moment.
Concerning moderation in this forum right now. Telling is that i havent had to issue a single warning here after this subforum was opened. So basically you veterans are self moderating this forum, which is an ideal situation. All i see is fruitfull and constructive discussion about several issues and i see my role in all this as someone listening and trying my best to pass those idea´s forward, so we can create a best enviroment possible for the MP of the featured title.

Magyar Khan
09-07-2010, 13:27
well the current group vets here are a cosy bunch i think...... :o)

it would be nice if the org made a list of the raised ideas and invesitigates in whats possible or whats not..... the most simple feature for instance is the upload option for replays... like i posted as example...

Kocmoc
09-07-2010, 14:53
we are all old mens, Mag with his 45 years is quite old and has no energy left to fight on a board. haha.

UglyElmo2
09-07-2010, 14:57
I'm 48. Magy I tell you what . . . . . I will hold that youngster Kocmoc while you kick him in the shins! :) We'll show him to pick on us old men!

Magyar Khan
09-07-2010, 17:46
44 koc :o) while the rough edges get smoothened over the years maybe other things got stronger in return... and elmo i have the body of a 34 year old so to me, qua visual, koc is older... :o)

UglyElmo2
09-07-2010, 20:33
44 koc :o) while the rough edges get smoothened over the years maybe other things got stronger in return... and elmo i have the body of a 34 year old so to me, qua visual, koc is older... :o)

LOL I have the apetite of a teenager, the height of a garden gnome, the reflexes of a three-toed sloth, the body shape of a small Buddha statue, the bodyhair of a large Italian Mafia Enforcer, and the face of a punch-drunk retired amateur boxer. It's an interesting combination, but it works for me. hehe

Magyar Khan
09-07-2010, 20:39
we are hijacking a thread but explain to me in what way it works for you.... women? scarrying kids?

Kagemusha
09-07-2010, 20:43
You guys are in danger of getting a new thread in the frontroom or maybe it should be counted as backroom material.Hmmm...What the name should be..:painting:

Magyar Khan
09-07-2010, 21:01
darkroom? with a 18+ rated pass? dunno what elmo is going to reveal next... ;)

Kagemusha
09-07-2010, 21:06
I guess we can only wait and fear the worst.:boxedin: But anyway as many of you can see by looking at your user information, some strange rambling about tournaments won and tournaments joined has appeared, so there is work in progress for some new features based on ideas proposed in this thread.:bow:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-07-2010, 21:10
darkroom? with a 18+ rated pass? dunno what elmo is going to reveal next... ;)



Wolfroom! :laugh4:

UglyElmo2
09-07-2010, 21:18
You guys are in danger of getting a new thread in the frontroom or maybe it should be counted as backroom material.Hmmm...What the name should be..:painting:

Ooops! Sorry Kage! I will go back on-topic. Sometimes I get a little distracted. hehe The good thing about looking like me is I don't have to spend much time in front of the mirror or much money on grooming. If I did, I would just be wasting my time and money, since I would still be an Ugly man, just with a shave and a haircut. When you are Ugly, if you "let yourself go" nobody notices. :)

Another thing the .org could do to interest the future TW MP community would be to create it's own team of expert MP players. Maybe call it the Orgs, b0rgs (as a parody of an old insult. Turn a negative into a positive! Show that you guys can laugh at yourselves.), the OrgASMs, or whatever else the .Org can come up with.

What I envision is a 2v2, 3v3, and a 4v4 team, or possibly several depending on interest. It could consist of a team of newbies, a team of average players, a team of better than average players, and a team of expert players. Maybe an expert team of newer players and one of "Ancients", or a ModSquad team (Who wouldn't want to beat up on mods/admins!!!).

The "Borgs" teams could be promoted in all the other forums as accepting all challengers. Veteran players could challenge the elite "Borgs" team to see their skill level. New players could ask questions of the "Borgs" to learn more about why they lost. As long as those chosen as "Borgs" are willing to help players improve their skills, it could work. My Ugli community did that very thing for awhile and we were able to almost double our membership because of it. The players saw how we were not only fairly decent at the game, but a lot of fun to play with.

If the Borg teams get beat, the winners could be offered a unique icon for the forum, and/or their name on a .org page listing those winners.

The b0rg teams could be rotated around. Or you could make the winners of a b0rg match the new b0rg team to beat . . . Like an ongoing King Of The Hill tournament. Lots of way to handle such things.

The replays of the matches could be used as teaching-aids for newer players. Maybe some of the more expert players could offer up a critical evaluation of when and where the battles were won or lost.

Lots of things one can do to increase interest. The most successful have FUN as the main emphasis. You want this game to be challenging, but FUN for everyone. Sometimes you have to SHOW people how to have FUN, or that it is ok to have FUN. Especially when they see the Borg teams are both good players and are having FUN playing.

I think that about makes up for my off-topic-ness don't you think Kage? I know it was written in a sort of Stream-of-consciousness way, but hopefully it is enough to get others to add some input and ideas. :) hehe

Kagemusha
09-07-2010, 21:53
Not a bad idea, not a bad idea at all, Elmo.:bow:

UglyElmo2
09-07-2010, 22:24
You, me and Gregoshi could be the b0rg team called "Team Rout". Professional victims to make the new players feel good about their abilities. :)

Magyar Khan
09-08-2010, 10:30
Good idea elmo. Let new players be able to get some training from org vets....

vartan
09-09-2010, 18:24
As someone without S:TW experience or any Shogun history knowledge, I'll keep my post simple as I can. Tera's posts, starting with #10 in this thread, hit the nail on its head. It all boils down to the distinction of the various roles, from players all the way up to mods and admins. Probably more important, even than that, would be the attraction. Why do some people buy a specific newspaper of their liking every day? They go there to read those headlines, to find those interesting stories. These daily (or other frequency) ticks are what would solidify the Guild (or the 'Org') as the place to go for the multiplayer community (at least for S2:TW, to be specific).

Call me a fanatic, but I believe this for the past 6 years 3 months now. I always thought MP players should run their own stuff on forums as Moderators/Admins. Call me a 19 century militaristic Prussian, but as much as I enjoy and respect our SP crew, I just think MP players are better at handing their own problems since they can relate to it.
AKWC88, you know what I'm thinking. :laugh4: Although, I'm more for an integration of SP and MP, a hybridisation, an interweaving, not a segregation (of course SP and MP need separate forum sections, I am referring to another sense of community). And another contrast, AKWC88, also falls back onto what Tera has mentioned. That is, roles need not be vague but specific in their descriptions. The player should be one thing, the mod another, yet the admin another. The mod/admin would almost necessarily be one who has plenty experience in the field, though, of battles, tournaments, and so on. Even some web management would be handy (case in point). In any case, good luck to the S2:TW community, including SP and MP.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-10-2010, 17:04
As someone without S:TW experience or any Shogun history knowledge, I'll keep my post simple as I can. Tera's posts, starting with #10 in this thread, hit the nail on its head. It all boils down to the distinction of the various roles, from players all the way up to mods and admins. Probably more important, even than that, would be the attraction. Why do some people buy a specific newspaper of their liking every day? They go there to read those headlines, to find those interesting stories. These daily (or other frequency) ticks are what would solidify the Guild (or the 'Org') as the place to go for the multiplayer community (at least for S2:TW, to be specific).

AKWC88, you know what I'm thinking. :laugh4: Although, I'm more for an integration of SP and MP, a hybridisation, an interweaving, not a segregation (of course SP and MP need separate forum sections, I am referring to another sense of community). And another contrast, AKWC88, also falls back onto what Tera has mentioned. That is, roles need not be vague but specific in their descriptions. The player should be one thing, the mod another, yet the admin another. The mod/admin would almost necessarily be one who has plenty experience in the field, though, of battles, tournaments, and so on. Even some web management would be handy (case in point). In any case, good luck to the S2:TW community, including SP and MP.


:smash::angel:


We need to make sure new people want to come here. I know that the CCS players hate .Org for several reasons, one being the s-called elitist attitude here. One vet needs to make sure he/she does not act arrogant with new players or that will drive them off.

AMP
09-10-2010, 18:40
The elitist attitude here is nothing compared to other gaming forums that I've been to. I haven't seen vets rip apart new players here like I have at other places... then again I don't read every post here, so I wouldn't know, but I haven't seen anything horrid yet. :)

Sp00n
09-10-2010, 21:30
The elitist attitude here is nothing compared to other gaming forums that I've been to. I haven't seen vets rip apart new players here like I have at other places... then again I don't read every post here, so I wouldn't know, but I haven't seen anything horrid yet. :)

Have to agree with AMP i've never found this site Elitist at all, the only issue is that in general the older generation of TW players consider the newer TW games to be a pale shadow of the first 2 TW games in Multiplayer, now WOW hardcore raiding guilds omg there's elitism for you.

Togakure
09-10-2010, 22:38
I think it's more that newer TW fans like the newer games, and here, many liked the older games and tend to criticize the newer ones. It's not so much players giving players a bad time, but old players giving the new games a bad time, and maybe putting down players who like the new games by association. If the newer players defend the new games and then get put down, I can see how they might leave in a huff for sites like the TWC (which caters to the newer games--look at its forum structure and tell me what's missing ...).

When I think "elitist," it has little to do with skill level and more to do with groupie attitudes and behaviors. It's a certain arrogant snobbiness associated with those who see themselves as members of an "in" crowd, excluding or at least dismissing others who aren't--basically like in high school. I know some highly skilled players who aren't elitist at all. Conversely, I've know many clannies--mediocre players at best--who could be very elitist. Elitist and elite are not the same.

How can the Org better serve in this context? Assure that discussions stick to criticisms of the games and moderate instances where it becomes criticism of the people who like those games. Downplay elitist behavior and things that encourage it when it comes to what gets posted on this board. Don't cater to the "in" crowd. Be as fair as possible to everyone. Generally speaking, the Org has been pretty good at this.

New players (that like the new games ...) come to sites that have what they want. What do we have that they want? How do market that? If we don't have it, how do we create it? And don't flaunt what they don't want ....

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-10-2010, 23:49
The elitist attitude here is nothing compared to other gaming forums that I've been to. I haven't seen vets rip apart new players here like I have at other places... then again I don't read every post here, so I wouldn't know, but I haven't seen anything horrid yet. :)

Go on Battlefield 2 forums, Not bad, though I seen some gruesome elitism there.


Well, I think .Org has to find that bridge between the older and newer players so we can have a better MP community.

vartan
09-11-2010, 00:07
Go on Battlefield 2 forums, Not bad, though I seen some gruesome elitism there.


Well, I think .Org has to find that bridge between the older and newer players so we can have a better MP community.
I have found that bridge in A Nerd. He is an oldie (that's not meant to be offensive) and we enjoy socialising here at the Guild. I'm finding it less uncomfortable to socialise with people twice my age or thereabouts, since we all have similar interests, us people who come onto these forums.

A Nerd
09-11-2010, 02:00
:) I'm flattered! But I can't do it myself! Not to sound all high and mighty or anything! :)

Togakure
09-11-2010, 02:55
Interesting. Actual age differences and the awkwardness it can sometimes bring is not something I'd thought about. It's true that many of us oldies are literally--oldies, lol.

vartan
09-11-2010, 03:04
Interesting. Actual age differences and the awkwardness it can sometimes bring is not something I'd thought about. It's true that many of us oldies are literally--oldies, lol.
It's awkward IRL, but on here it's in the back of our minds. Next thing you know, the guy you were conversating with about some TW game is actually twice your age, but a really cool guy/gal. It makes you reconsider a lot of things.

CanCritter
09-11-2010, 17:15
The "Borgs" teams could be promoted in all the other forums as accepting all challengers


PeRk................ and this from Elmo...go figure.....what this will do is give the ORG. a opp to get thier site out there (posting in other forums to premote) without stepping on any hoofs and createing traffic for the ORG ......knew Elmo was good for something but didnt think it'd take us this long to figure out what

UglyElmo2
09-12-2010, 06:21
The "Borgs" teams could be promoted in all the other forums as accepting all challengers


PeRk................ and this from Elmo...go figure.....what this will do is give the ORG. a opp to get thier site out there (posting in other forums to premote) without stepping on any hoofs and createing traffic for the ORG ......knew Elmo was good for something but didnt think it'd take us this long to figure out what

It must have been that Sangria I drank. :)

Swoosh So
09-12-2010, 13:35
Dont worry worry about competing with the twc for the multiplayers they dont make any effort at all for multiplayer, simply bringing up a thread asking for a shogun 2 multiplayer forum brings the single player trolls on that site sniffing around. TWC is a single player dominated site and is popular because of mods and quite rightly so as the effort they put into supporting modders was immense. Go logon there any time and you will see 130 people in the Third age totalwar forum. Ive seen that some admin staff at the TWC got an interview with CA about the campaign. Maybe the org staff should be pushing for the multiplayer preview/interview.

Swoosh So
09-12-2010, 13:38
Also with regards to tournaments, most tournaments are run through clan sites now, so get the active clans on board then in future perhaps host the tournaments here. Get links up to their sites and tournaments then in future once bridges are built we can get some org hosted tournaments maybe with tools people are talking about here (sounds just like a spreadsheet btw).

Kocmoc
09-13-2010, 09:16
Many of us stopped once Rome came out, so actual its obvious, that many of us didnt like the games after MTW. Nothing bad about, if someone like something you dont like, than you have differences, thats logical.
You can be nice to each other and still have a different opinion about a certain matter.

Elitist behavior i hardly see here on this forum.

I dont see a single problem to push the Org, thats easy done and could have been done years ago.
I remember our Clancampaign, with this selfmade rules, countries and so on, this could also be a nice way to make it attractive. With a moderator and turns to play it on.

Magyar Khan
09-13-2010, 12:17
I suggest .Org gets in contact with CA for an interview-alike thing.... or we present them our summarized wishlist and they answer if the addition will made, or is already part of the release or not...

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-13-2010, 12:49
Should set a up poll for our wishlist Maygar so we can summarize it better.

Gregoshi
09-13-2010, 14:37
With regards to an interview, I am figuring, i.e. making an assumption, that we may only get one shot at an interview. Because of that assumption, I personally would rather get an interview later down the road once game details are better defined. As for the wishlist, the sooner the better. I would love it if CA would give us a rep like GilJaysmith who was very active here during the development of...RTW? I'll see what we can do about that.

Tera
09-13-2010, 19:53
I'd completely agree with someone from the Org staff taking up the combined wish list and presenting it to CA in an official manner. Give it some pomp with lots of newsposts and flashy bling :-)

Andres
09-14-2010, 11:16
Maybe the org staff should be pushing for the multiplayer preview/interview.

I like this idea. We'll contact CA and see what's possible.



I suggest .Org gets in contact with CA for an interview-alike thing.... or we present them our summarized wishlist and they answer if the addition will made, or is already part of the release or not...


Does something along the lines of "10 questions from the MP community" as a basis for the interview sounds good?

Swoosh So
09-15-2010, 19:09
yes andres that would be great but you would probably have to let ca select the questions from the list or we end up with 10 things theyre not willing to discuss yet as still in development.
Our questions will be quite in depth and CA will know this so best let them choose form a larger list the ones they comfortable with, i remember seeing an interview for rome totalwar where the guy asked ca will multiplayer be in rome totalwar? EPIC fail. The essential question tho is will there be a fully functional chat foyer where all players online are listed and the community is auto logged into to chat?

Magyar Khan
09-16-2010, 00:04
i suggest that they could pick 5 points of our list every month and tell something about it....

Magyar Khan
10-20-2010, 21:54
please org get CA towards our wishlist thread....

Swoosh So
10-20-2010, 22:01
Magy ive no doubt CA have seen it whether they agree or not with the ideas presented or even if theyre willing to discuss them is another matter.

Gregoshi
10-21-2010, 01:05
CA told us they would be taking a look at this forum. How much they are willing to participate any discussions is not known as of yet.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
10-22-2010, 00:53
please org get CA towards our wishlist thread....

Remember, you may want to talk with CA, but CA may not want to talk with you (right now anyhow).


:balloon2:

Kagemusha
10-24-2010, 11:43
CA has had a large presence in the Org of lately. We have atleast three of them including the lead designer looking at our humble dwellings and giving answers to our questions here and then. I wouldnt be amazed to see them also commenting these issues when they are ready. This is a big positive difference compared to the development of some earlier titles.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
10-25-2010, 15:21
All we can do is.... wait for them to start posting more Kage.


:yes:

AggonyReborn
11-06-2010, 05:06
As this has been an ongoing thread I scanned most of the 3 pages, fairly quick, but I didnt see anything about a steam operation. As Shogun2 will be through steam is there a Steam profile for the .org? If so im not aware, but if there isnt then you can invite all active players that participate in discussion here at the .org. With this everyone can see who is online or offline, and then schedule events. you can schedule friendly games set dates, clan vs clan dates. All in friendly appetite. Obviously you can do this here at the .org but just the 2nd option of another .org home to go to, could help in the MP community. And allways tournaments brings good people together. A good example clan hunter scheduled a clan practice for a weekend Aggony volunteered to participate for the fun. I acted as representative for Aggony as i was that day, and in the end I heard from my clan mates that it went well and a good amount of games were played that hour scheduled by the Hunter clan :) It helped in relations with Clan hunter and to this day we still have good fun games afterwards :)

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-06-2010, 17:14
.Org should do more of a PR campgain when the time comes to bring more people, MP and SP, in.

Nikodil
12-12-2010, 22:00
Start an open steam group for TW MP. Promote it heavily. Market it as the official .org MP chat channel (instead of IRC). Lobby with the several thousands or so other total war steam groups to join and/or merge with it. Will solve the missing chat lobby problem.

[EDIT]

Now CA has announced that there will be a lobby, which will probably be a better solution than using steam chat. But I still think using steam could be valuable as a community tool, for news announcement, chat (instead of irc), etc.

UglyJun
03-03-2011, 21:54
I'm 48. Magy I tell you what . . . . . I will hold that youngster Kocmoc while you kick him in the shins! :) We'll show him to pick on us old men!

count me in elmo hehe
I beat ya all just about to turn 50 :)

UglyJun
03-03-2011, 22:04
[QUOTE=UglyElmo2;2053206892]
What I envision is a 2v2, 3v3, and a 4v4 team, or possibly several depending on interest. It could consist of a team of newbies, a team of average players, a team of better than average players, and a team of expert players. Maybe an expert team of newer players and one of "Ancients", or a ModSquad team (Who wouldn't want to beat up on mods/admins!!!).

The "Borgs" teams could be promoted in all the other forums as accepting all challengers. Veteran players could challenge the elite "Borgs" team to see their skill level. New players could ask questions of the "Borgs" to learn more about why they lost. As long as those chosen as "Borgs" are willing to help players improve their skills, it could work. My Ugli community did that very thing for awhile and we were able to almost double our membership because of it. The players saw how we were not only fairly decent at the game, but a lot of fun to play with.]

Awesome idea again you can count me in, but don't fall asleep on your Hill ok :)
by the way where is that old Ugli Obake?

Kocmoc
03-08-2011, 11:31
Well, I worry a bit about new player, player who never touched the MP-part of TW.
From what i have seen so far, the game has many mechanics hidden and some are very hard to understand.
If your completely new, you have tons of stuff hidden your brain, alone the moral is some unique thing in a game.

What I could imagine is, to create replays, either as real replay in game or on youtube with fraps.
To create a step by step workshop for new player. It could look like this:

1. How to setup your army, getting some good setup
2. How to create grps and set the different units - ctrl + 1-9 and F* keys
3. What are the different formations - open formation, why are missles in low ranks?!?
4. How flanking works, how rear works
5. show the flags and what info you can get....

.... and so on.

We could create different replays and show easy how something is done an what certain things mean.
Alone the fact of the general, the difference .... there is a lot.

In the first place, it would draw people to the org, it would get used and it could be some valuable recourse.
It also could prevent new people to leave the game early again, since they dont stand a chance online.

UglyJun
03-08-2011, 16:15
Kocmoc :)
i like to help you with that will be fun :) could even fraps it !!!

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
03-08-2011, 16:26
I posted a VI MP battle I did with Barocca up on YouTube, so we can do this me thinks :yes:.

gollum
03-08-2011, 17:34
Making the transition to multiplayer in TW games is difficult indeed and it has a steep learning curve both in terms of psychology as well as in terms of skill.

There are a number of ways to aid this;

1. Battle video commentaries in which army selection, main army component elements (melee infantry/spears/cavalry/missiles) and their correct/wrong uses are discussed relative to the engine workings.
A good example of this are videos like those of Cluny the Scourge for RTW - his comentaries are pretty good for that game, but also for TW in general to a certain level (they won't help most people in this thread but may help new players) and people coming into the game can learn by seeing them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuJXms-rgh8&feature=related

2. Written guides, like the one St Louis de Colombe had made for MTW/VI and is still here in the org (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?32936-Medieval-Total-War-Beginner-s-guide-for-Multiplayer). Its outdated of course about money levels, army selection etc, but its still relevant in describing the 3 basic phases of an mp battle, that is missile skirmish/melee phase degenerating into skirmishes (if opponents of equal skill)/depleted units regroup end game, as well as discussing to some extent how army selection can be loaded to achieve a certain battle plan (more melee infantry=rush army ie avoid shootout altogether and go straight for the kill, more missiles=win shootout so avoid engaging too quickly to weaken enemy with missiles, more cavalry=aiming to harass missile line during shootout to tip the missile duel and/or flank locally or globally during the main melee).

The same can be done in writing/discussing the basics of team tactics/strategies; ie how 1v1 is different to 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 respectively.

For example, in 2v2 the distances between allied armies are so small that the two armies can fight litteraly as 1 and there is little space for double teaming unless you are facing very inexperienced/new players.

In 3v3 space between armies is bigger and double teaming tactics work especially if the terrain has features that aid to this (large unpassable rock in the middle of one team side, say).

Its important also for new players to know that this (double teaming) is the dominant tactic and also how to counter it - ie you need to compress enough in order to mesh with your center team mate but not too much because you both may take massive casualties if the opposition shifts to shooting the massed formations OR you may act as an anvil for your centre teammate by setting melee units to hold formation, missiles behind to avoid them being picked off by cavalry but also add to numbers and so avoid rout by local outnumbering due to the double team and so enable your centre teammate to hammer by hitting the double teamers in the flank.

In 4v4 knowing how to do/deal with double teams is even more important as distances between armies are so large that local superiorities/double teams at the flanks are even more easy to pull off.

Also the importance of how to play according to which side in the battle line people take/appear ie a player that plays center in a 3v3 team game should be an experienced player/leader and should dictate the pace/plan/strategy of his team because his army can reach either flanks andall the major decisions are practically his.

3. (and this probably the most important one:) Learning by regularly playing on a conistent basis with a regular group of people one can suit in. Obviously clans are the best such group of people, but there is no reason why less "coloured" groups be organised by members of various clans. This is the most effective way, because unless you go through the experience yourself you can't really learn by just watching others play or by just reading guides and posts. If however you do ply consistently, then reading can help very much as you can relate what you read to what you experience every week/day. Esecially at first that there is a need to deal with repeatedly being beaten and make mistakes, a sense of acceptance and belonging is key. Such relationships are partially "random" and "chemistry" - certain people will match with some and not so much with others due to temperament and character, but its important that theoverall spirit of the communnity is tolerant, friendly and humorous to a certain degree.

The keys are companionship, fairness and regularity. If people feel comfortable, they are treated properly, are having fun and find common interest they will take root - otherwise they will never last the long and snaggy process for mastering the game, and let's say things as they are: TW mp can be tremendoulsy fun after you know what you are doing, why you are winning and why you are losing, and this may take (depending on how often and how much you play) from 2 months to 6 months :)

Also important is to mesh new/inexperienced players with more experienced players in non-competitive team games. In that way there can be in-battle assistance and learning on the spot and games are more interesting overall for all participants - if on the other hands you let the noobs team up and just get trashed all the while, the vets get eventually no(?) satisfaction and the noobs don't know what hit them, so become dissapointed and leave and that's it.

4. As outdated as they may be, engine workings revealed for MTW by CA may also help. I am certain that bonuses may have changed and that the engine is somewhat different, but not that different that the then information at principle level is obsolete as it is fundamentally the same principles/workings even if the numbers aren't exaclty the same.

Here are the morale TW engine workings from MTW/VI:
Morale States:
--------------

Impetuous: 10 and above
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less than -6

Rout point is -18 in MTW/VI for MP.
Routed units will keep routing until their morale rises to -6 or above.
Hitting the rally key pumps +8 morale into the unit.

Impetuous units will pursue enemies for longer, and may disregard orders to hold position. #Some troop types may charge without orders.

Uncertain or wavering units which are not fighting are less likely to charge, and those who are fighting are more likely to fall back.


Negative Morale Effects:
-----------------------

Loose or disordered formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: up to -4 (range = about 75 meters)
Outnumbered 10 to 1: up to -12 (range = about 75 meters)
Outclassed in quality and speed: modifies the outnumbered penalty.
One flank threatened: -2 (range = about 60 meters)
Two flanks threatened: -6 (range = about 60 meters
Charged in flank: -4
Infantry charged by cavalry in flank or while disordered: -6
Charged in flank by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (for first few seconds): -8 to all his units except highly disciplined units
General's death (after first few seconds): -2 to all his units except highly disciplined units
Routing Friends: up to -12 for seeing 2 equal or higher level friendly units routing. #Elite and disciplined units consider lesser types as 1/2 a unit for this calculation.
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking casualties from enemy missle fire: -2 for a duration less than the reload of the firing unit (additional -4 for gunpowder weapons)
Unit is very tired: -2
Unit is exhausted: -6
Unit is totally exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)
Skirmishing without ammo: -6
Skirmisher pursued for a long distance by equal speed unit: -6


Positive Morale Effects:
----------------------

Two flanks protected: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Two enemies routing: up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: up to +6
Unordered charge: +4 (such as when impetuous knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General's unit: +2
Within 50 meters of general: +1 morale per command star
Beyond 50 meters from general: +1 morale per 2 command stars

5. And of course that the gameplay is actually enjoyable and allows for a continual rotation of different army styles without too many artificial rules and restrictions and that an appropriate money level (that accounts for upgrades and morale levels) is selected. For the first, there is nothing or little to be done as its up to the developer. The second however rests with the community. In general, there is an optimal or quasi-optimal level of money the game is played at for balance purposes.

This is because if too much money is used units become unroutable and the match up relationships are skewed to the point that unit selection/upgrades/flanking only are the determining gameplay factors. If on the other hand too little money is there can be no significant end game as depleted battle-fatigued units after the main melee can't fight it out and outnumbering penlties in large team games may give insta routs in double teams and prevent having time for succesful counter maneuvers which means the game is more of a first-come-first-served type of gameplay with the initiative overexagerated resulting in rush moves/strategies dominating.

Nigel
03-08-2011, 21:54
These are very nice suggestions, Kocmoc, Jun and Gollum.
Let me know if I can do anything to help - even if it is just beeing your guinee pig noob to try our your teaching and tutoring ... ;)

Nikodil
03-08-2011, 22:59
3. (and this probably the most important one:) Learning by regularly playing on a conistent basis with a regular group of people one can suit in. Obviously clans are the best such group of people, but there is no reason why less "coloured" groups be organised by members of various clans. This is the most effective way, because unless you go through the experience yourself you can't really learn by just watching others play or by just reading guides and posts. If however you do ply consistently, then reading can help very much as you can relate what you read to what you experience every week/day. Esecially at first that there is a need to deal with repeatedly being beaten and make mistakes, a sense of acceptance and belonging is key. Such relationships are partially "random" and "chemistry" - certain people will match with some and not so much with others due to temperament and character, but its important that theoverall spirit of the communnity is tolerant, friendly and humorous to a certain degree.

The keys are companionship, fairness and regularity. If people feel comfortable, they are treated properly, are having fun and find common interest they will take root - otherwise they will never last the long and snaggy process for mastering the game, and let's say things as they are: TW mp can be tremendoulsy fun after you know what you are doing, why you are winning and why you are losing, and this may take (depending on how often and how much you play) from 2 months to 6 months :)

Also important is to mesh new/inexperienced players with more experienced players in non-competitive team games. In that way there can be in-battle assistance and learning on the spot and games are more interesting overall for all participants - if on the other hands you let the noobs team up and just get trashed all the while, the vets get eventually no(?) satisfaction and the noobs don't know what hit them, so become dissapointed and leave and that's it.

I'm thinking about these ideas about training. How about setting up a Dojo?

The purpose would primarily be tactical training, organized similar to that of clans, but open for all to join. Training sessions could be tailored to focused on a single tactical aspect, say how to use bows or cavs, there could be kata-like performance excercises, or more free form sparring sessions.

A Dojo could provide the same benefits as clans for both new players (but with a very low barrier of entry, basically just a stream group) as well as more experienced players, there's always room for sharpening techniques and learning by teaching.

Napoleon The Emperor Of Europe
03-09-2011, 15:54
Mate.that is excellent,it would be good to upload your replyas on this site,that would really do.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
03-10-2011, 15:28
I'm thinking about these ideas about training. How about setting up a Dojo?

The purpose would primarily be tactical training, organized similar to that of clans, but open for all to join. Training sessions could be tailored to focused on a single tactical aspect, say how to use bows or cavs, there could be kata-like performance excercises, or more free form sparring sessions.

A Dojo could provide the same benefits as clans for both new players (but with a very low barrier of entry, basically just a stream group) as well as more experienced players, there's always room for sharpening techniques and learning by teaching.

That could very well help the newer MP players out mate.

Succi
03-11-2011, 15:59
Let me summarise my hasty appraisal and apologise in advance if i've missed the mark. I also have little understanding of the leadership structure here.

totalwar.org

Strengths:

- One of the oldest total war fansites, complete with over a decade of history
- Links to CA, however I'm not in a position to say how strong or broken down these are
- Existing (largely) mature community, with many skilled individuals willing to help
- 2nd fansite listed on a search for 'total war' (although description isn't effective : simply the first sentence of blog post)

Weaknesses

- Appears isolated from the large influx of new players
- Existing community / memories retain current community. There is little pull (as identified in this thread) to bring new players here.

Threats

- Totalwar.com has it's own multiplayer forum, the new multiplayer community will naturally be pulled towards that. The forum also has the benefit of CA employee replies
- Lots of other fansites / clan sites will no doubt be springing up, as the hype around S2 seems considerable. Failing to push the org forward will see it buried in obscurity
- Migration of existing community towards new emerging forums which have more content / relevant discussion

Opportunities (what can be done)

- With lots of new players emerging, it would be helpful to create a 'pull' towards the org to avoid it becoming stagnant with an existing community. Gollum, Kocmoc and others had some great posts on how to do that, so I won't go over what exact content could be created. However it's not enough for this content to simply exist, it somehow needs to be marketed. Initially this presents itself in my mind as greater integration/partnership with CA. Why? :

- CA will obviously want their forums to be popular, but will also recognise the need for fansite communities for S2 to survive until they release to next in the series
- CA will (or should) view the org as a success story. It's stuck around for the entire TW series length. S2 represents success for CA in 10 years of gameplay and I'm sure they would want to recognise sites that have helped them along this journey

Regardless of support from CA, the following would be helpful:

.Org Youtube Channel

- Footage of key fights from high-esteemed players. There is a huge following of live streams/replays of SC2 games, although S2 isn't seen to be an e-sport in the same light as SC2, there is no reason why people wouldn't be interested in watching some high profile e.g tournaments games. This leads me onto my next points:

- Commentaries on tactics, fights, army selection etc. Again this would have to be from players with credentials.

- There are lots more potential ideas for video content here, I'm not a very creative person so I'll hang this one out there for others.

.Org Thread on official forums

- Hopefully this would be allowed (even stickied) by CA as essentially it's creating content/marketing/community for their own game.

- Thread would primarily act as a linking device for letting people know what content has recently been uploaded onto the org. It would have to be supported by the existing .org community on the official forums.

.Org networking

- I'm not entire sure what I mean by this, however I'm confident there are opportunities to represent the org either on steam, or ingame in the multiplayer foyer.

- Could be in the form of 'challenge an org member' or 'lesson from org member'. This is assuming that the org has some higher profile / high ranked players that people would be interested in.


Now this is all potential a lot of work, and would be dependent on just how much people want to push this site. I think it's all rather realistic though, especially if links with CA are already existing.

CanCritter
03-12-2011, 19:16
some good ideas Succi..good work

Nigel
03-12-2011, 23:24
A very nice SWAT analysis, Succi, and good thoughts on how to keep the .org alive and up to date.


I also very much like the idea of a Tashio Dojo :


I'm thinking about these ideas about training. How about setting up a Dojo?

The purpose would primarily be tactical training, organized similar to that of clans, but open for all to join. Training sessions could be tailored to focused on a single tactical aspect, say how to use bows or cavs, there could be kata-like performance excercises, or more free form sparring sessions.

A Dojo could provide the same benefits as clans for both new players (but with a very low barrier of entry, basically just a stream group) as well as more experienced players, there's always room for sharpening techniques and learning by teaching.


That sounds actually like a lot of fun to run.
Perhaps some of the veterans could act as Sensei and offer training sessions to interested players.
I also think that many players, certainly myself, could benefit a lot from kata-like exercises, i.e. just the maneuvers without an opponent putting pressure on you. This would be great in getting some help in how to control your 20 units army more efficiently and avoid all those typical micromanage mistakes.

Krasturak
01-31-2012, 01:57
I need a technical guide to help me with the basics, such as: what is the current patch version? How do I join a multiplayer game? The basic stuff is not available, and this could be isolating the stuffy guys like me that can't figure it out for ourselves. Not much use to talk about tactics or fun tournaments or wahtever until I can get to play this.

Andres
01-31-2012, 10:02
About the patch: the game runs on Steam and it patches automatically, so you don't need to worry about that.

About your other questions, well I'm not exactly an MP player, so I'll leave that to others.

Krasturak
01-31-2012, 22:11
About the patch: the game runs on Steam and it patches automatically, so you don't need to worry about that.

Oh. It alwys tells me that I can't join, I have the wrong game version.

Does this mean I have to buy the game expansion modules?