S2TW campaign preview by IGN

[Kagemusha]

Here are the first shots and some description concerning the single player campaign from IGN:

http://pc.ign.com/articles/111/1119498p1.html

I am loving many things ive read from the article. Like options of marrying a general to your family in order to create a tighter bond with him and the Clan, or commanding for a general to make seppuku. The developing tree for generals seem interesting as well.

It would seem that the Metsuki has replaced Shinobi as agent, while it has pretty much the same function. I am not entirely thrilled abut Geisha´s making a come back, but it was quite expected. The screen from campaign map is looking like we are going to have an atmospheric surroundings to play our campaigns.

Here is a bigger version of the campaign map screen:

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2989/shoguniitotalwar2010090.jpg

From the campaign map screen i can identify the Takeda flag from immediately to the North and the yellow Bushi is carrying a Imagawa flag, while the screen is taken from Hojo Domain. What interesting is see more North is that it would seem that atleast Dewa province is splitted in smaller sections as Yamagata was the home of the Mogami Clan of Dewa and Kubo castle was further North in the same province. Shinano province seem to be splitted also and I bet Mutsu province has been given a similar treatment.

To guess the date of the game in that picture.I think it is hardly regogniceable as Edo is already in the hands of Hojo, which suggests that the date is after 1524. It could also be that im interprating the picture wrong and Edo is in "rebel" hands, which would suggest that its earlyer date and the possession of the rebels might only suggest that the Uesugi is still missing from the campaign. Supporting this is also the fact that Kozuke is in "rebel" ownership, while surely it should be in the ownership of Uesugi, either the Yamanochi branch in earlier dates or the late Uesugi under Uesugi Kenshin during bit later times. Even if nominally under Nagano, Clan, but still always an Uesugi retainer rather then "independent clan". But maybe we are looking at a work in progress, where all the clans are not yet set to the campaign.

Great job from the developers i must say!:bow:

[AggonyDuck]

The Date is 1555 as can be seen at the bottom right corner of the picture.

[Kagemusha]

The Date is 1555 as can be seen at the bottom right corner of the picture.

In that case we are definetely looking at work in progress as for 1555 Hojo had held Edo for more like 30 years.

[AggonyDuck]

I'm pretty sure we are looking at a game in progress.

[Kagemusha]

I'm pretty sure we are looking at a game in progress.

Yes its a game in progress, but while developing a campaign, nothing prevents you from playing while adding new factions at later stage. So i atleast hope its just a development level they are playing. If i pinch my eyes.The flag over Edo has the Uesugi love birds mon, which gives pretty confusing image as if Uesugi is a "rebel" faction, then is Nagao/ Uesugi of Echigo somehow separated from the Uesugi proper. Still Edo was not at the hands of either in 1555, so either we have a non historical starting situation or then the game has taken some pretty interesting turns, when some Hojo lands have turned into Uesugi rebels and Uesugi lands in Kozuke as "rebel" lands also.:sweatdrop:

[hoom]

Not really surprising but a bitter pill nonetheless that its still a Rome type campaign map :-/

[Togakure]

Yeah, my first reaction when I saw the map was, 'well, so much for shibumi on the campaign map.' It's what I expected though.

[Barkhorn1x]

Yeah, my first reaction when I saw the map was, 'well, so much for shibumi on the campaign map.' It's what I expected though.

Did you want to go back to the more traditioal STW parchment w/ the sliding pieces? That could be interesting if done right.

[Barkhorn1x]

Not really surprising but a bitter pill nonetheless that its still a Rome type campaign map :-/

I don't know, the campaign map appears to be much more "stylized" than RTWs. I kind of like it - basing my uninformed opinion on one pic. :)

[A Nerd]

The article made the game sound like it will be quite diverse and interesting to play. The seppuku aspect in neat, I just wonder if the general will always go rogue and never commit suicide due to and AI glitch. Perhaps loyalty, honor and the like will be in his traits, I don't know. Also, the campaign map is beautiful! I just hope the AI handels it better than the AI in past games. It doesn't look like you can play the game on a PC that played STW though. You know, and older PC that is past it's prime. All in all I am quite excited! Let's just hope it lives up to expectations!

[Shigemasa Oyamada]

Interesting read, although the monks-countering-Metsuke thing seems a bit odd (Is there some kind of guilt factor? If so then why wouldn't that affect anyone besides Metsuke? I'm probably just missing something big...). The map doesn't seem terribly different from ETW-NTW, and it looks like they're keeping the same "settlements outside province capital" thing. A board like STW and MTW would just feel so antiquated to me as I feel like we've come a bit closer to reality than that with video games in ten years, so I don't see what is wrong with the "Rome" style maps. Overall though this just makes the waiting period worse :laugh4:.

[hoom]

I don't see what is wrong with the "Rome" style maps.Mainly its basically impossible to retreat. Nearly every time you just get chased & forced to fight to the last man anyway.
The old style let you strategically give ground. Also it allowed allied forces to be actually useful & I liked the relative simplicity, it can be a big drag trying to keep track of everything in the Rome style.

I really think the Rome style should be used at a new 2nd level of the strategic map. Just used in a province where you have opposing armies, with several sub-turns or even several mins of real-time per strategy map turn. That would give best of both worlds.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Mainly its basically impossible to retreat. Nearly every time you just get chased & forced to fight to the last man anyway.
The old style let you strategically give ground. Also it allowed allied forces to be actually useful & I liked the relative simplicity, it can be a big drag trying to keep track of everything in the Rome style.

That and the AI wasn't as bad because it had less to deal with. Sometimes less is more.

[Gregoshi]

I can't comment on M2TW or ETW, but in RTW (at least the way I played it) there was rarely a reason to leave the roads. This often meant the battles were fought on boring flat maps with little in the way of terrain. With the Risk style map of STW/MTW, you were forced to fight on a variety of terrain: hills/mountains/valleys, forests, rivers.

The map looks gorgeous, but I was a little disappointed that it was a RTW style map as well. However, I will reserve judgement until later. I like the return of the videos and the increase in possible outcomes. The family tree is a cool idea, but as I recall from RTW, it started getting too unwieldy trying to keep track of all your faction relatives and generals. Again, I will reserve judgement until later. I hope the geshia is toned down. They were an agent I would have loved to use more but they had such a powerful impact on the game. It was not fun when your daimyo had to play tag with an enemy geshia knowing that if she tagged you, you were almost guaranteed dead.

Overall, it was nice to see some more of the game, but I wish the reviewer was someone with experience playing STW and idealy all the TW games.

[Kagemusha]

Mainly its basically impossible to retreat. Nearly every time you just get chased & forced to fight to the last man anyway.
The old style let you strategically give ground. Also it allowed allied forces to be actually useful & I liked the relative simplicity, it can be a big drag trying to keep track of everything in the Rome style.

I really think the Rome style should be used at a new 2nd level of the strategic map. Just used in a province where you have opposing armies, with several sub-turns or even several mins of real-time per strategy map turn. That would give best of both worlds.

One way also would be to dramatically increase the range armies could move in the strat map, so your castles wouldnt be safe from attack from any province in vicinity. One thing bothering me ever since RTW has been that the short distance army can move per turn gives away them way too easily and gives the player all the time in the world to prepare his defences, or even counter march the enemy from longer distance, because the AI armies tend to wonder around bit and not move directly towards target.

[Magyar Khan]

i would think an area of influence could solve this....... depending on the number of scouts u carry in your army (or scout virtue of general) you are able to engage combat even if enemy is not adjacent but some distance away...

it represents the knowledge of scouts and terrain which can be used in your advantage.....

so lets say general A has scoutingability 5 and
general B has 2 than general A can engage combat when (4-2)+3 (default) = 5 squares/hexes away (area of influence)

general B has to be adjacent 2-5 + 3 = 0 which becomes 1 .... he must be adjacent

[Shigemasa Oyamada]

Well, NTW and ETW have something sort of like that, as long as you end a turn with "marching range" left you can intercept any enemies that move through the zone. I think how large the zone is corresponds to your amount of range left.

[LadyAnn]

Campaign map is getting fancy.

Annie

[Togakure]

i would think an area of influence could solve this....... depending on the number of scouts u carry in your army (or scout virtue of general) you are able to engage combat even if enemy is not adjacent but some distance away...

it represents the knowledge of scouts and terrain which can be used in your advantage.....

so lets say general A has scoutingability 5 and
general B has 2 than general A can engage combat when (4-2)+3 (default) = 5 squares/hexes away (area of influence)

general B has to be adjacent 2-5 + 3 = 0 which becomes 1 .... he must be adjacent
I really like this kind of thing in other games, where developing a skill (or not) had benefits or consequences (in this example, scouting).

[Shigemasa Oyamada]

I have to say, everything looks pretty basic. The unit cards, the castle icon to the next of it, and the Ninja portrait all look like something I'd expect from the days of the original STW.

[Magyar Khan]

i personally like that simple "iconizing" better and more clear than the stw ones .... the better spend time on gameplay and mp-hosting

[edyzmedieval]

Has anyone else noticed the bowing samurai icon in the low right side of the screen? That might be a return of the Throne Room if I'm allowed to take a guess.

Nevertheless, I like the campaign map a lot. Looking forward to more!

[lars573]

I can't comment on M2TW or ETW, but in RTW (at least the way I played it) there was rarely a reason to leave the roads. This often meant the battles were fought on boring flat maps with little in the way of terrain. With the Risk style map of STW/MTW, you were forced to fight on a variety of terrain: hills/mountains/valleys, forests, rivers.
The roads in RTW were more designed along Roman ideas. Only build them on nice flat open land. M2TW had roads that went into more winding and hilly areas. One of the first battles I fought in M2TW was on a road. Holding off a Crusader army heading for Jerusalem. In the foothills of the Lebanese mountains/highlands. The actual battle map had mountains to my right and a cliff to my left. My army was blocking the road. My generals bodyguard was standing right on the cobblestones. And since I only got ETW a few months ago I haven't a road battle yet. But using the roads isn't necessarily the best way to get around. For example getting to Tbilisi from the capital of Chechnya/Dagestan is fastest using the roadless pass through the Caucasus north east of Tbilisi. Rather than the roads which go the long way around the mountains.


The map looks gorgeous, but I was a little disappointed that it was a RTW style map as well. However, I will reserve judgement until later. I like the return of the videos and the increase in possible outcomes. The family tree is a cool idea, but as I recall from RTW, it started getting too unwieldy trying to keep track of all your faction relatives and generals. Again, I will reserve judgement until later. I hope the geshia is toned down. They were an agent I would have loved to use more but they had such a powerful impact on the game. It was not fun when your daimyo had to play tag with an enemy geshia knowing that if she tagged you, you were almost guaranteed dead.

Overall, it was nice to see some more of the game, but I wish the reviewer was someone with experience playing STW and idealy all the TW games.
The RTW style map is better in all respects. I had serious problems with that risk style map. If CA had stuck with it I'd have dropped TW years ago. It kills the campaign game's immersion factor.


One way also would be to dramatically increase the range armies could move in the strat map, so your castles wouldnt be safe from attack from any province in vicinity. One thing bothering me ever since RTW has been that the short distance army can move per turn gives away them way too easily and gives the player all the time in the world to prepare his defences, or even counter march the enemy from longer distance, because the AI armies tend to wonder around bit and not move directly towards target.
They already have done that. In M2TW they increased movement speeds a bit. In ETW they increased them a lot. Land movement was doubled compared to RTW/M2TW. And sea movement was I think tripled. Example: In RTW to move a fleet across the Med (from the Dardanelles to Gibraltar) would take ~10 turns. In ETW it takes 4 turns.

[Magyar Khan]

map as it is now is better than teh riskstyle one... where u knw that a certain map was always a bridge..... but what i generally dont like is managing all these armies i liked it in the boardgame samuraiswords where max 3 daimyo armies could move several provinces in a turn and province armies just one.... lik in ntw im so eager to fight battles that im more into hunting enemies than ensuring supplylines of new units and diplomats and such....

[quadalpha]

I really think the Rome style should be used at a new 2nd level of the strategic map. Just used in a province where you have opposing armies, with several sub-turns or even several mins of real-time per strategy map turn. That would give best of both worlds.

Yes! I remember saying this ages ago. Have an operational layer between the strategic and tactical layers.

[Magyar Khan]

i remember genghis khans II from Koei uses this,....

google search http://www.google.nl/images?hl=nl&q=genghis%20khan%20II%20koei&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1680&bih=869

worldmap
regionmap
battlemap

fun thing was that u could hide with ambushes on the regional maps and luring enemy towards u with a weak army of yours and when he was close in weak position jump out with your main army

[Gregoshi]

...One of the first battles I fought in M2TW...had mountains to my right and a cliff to my left...
That is much better and I'm glad to hear that.


The RTW style map is better in all respects. I had serious problems with that risk style map. If CA had stuck with it I'd have dropped TW years ago. It kills the campaign game's immersion factor.
That is going to be a matter of taste. For me, looking at a cloth map with pieces representing armies, felt very immersive as I would have such a setup in my throne room. Having the RTW satellite view of the map and watching 30 mile tall men striding over hills and cities wasn't very immersive to me. It was "gee whiz, isn't that cool", but it wasn't immersive. The RTW map does allow for much more potential in variety of battle maps. It failed in RTW, but from what you are saying, that has been fixed in the later games. :2thumbsup:

[hoom]

Yes, the battle map generation has come along tremendously since RTW :)
But the Campaign map really hasn't. This looks like an improvement in environmental effects but it clearly hasn't had the kind of quality bump that the battle maps have & shows very strong ties to the original RTW map.

But like you say Gregoshi, the immersion factor came from the Campaign map feeling like a map setup in a tent or throne room & you're the boss shifting tokens around the map working out your strategy with your generals.
Then when you hit End Turn, its like you've given the orders & dismissed the gathering then they leave your presence to send out riders who deliver the orders to the actual troops.
The pieces actually moving is kind of a sped-up version of reports coming in over the next several days/weeks: 'relocated successfully' or 'attacked & here is the battle report' <goes to a battle> or 'Sneak attack, a neighbouring clan has invaded this unguarded province!' etc.
Then the next turn is a new strategy session where you react to the new situation.

Only other game I've felt that kind of immersion is actually the just released RUSE (WWII RTS) where at full zoom out you're in a bunker around a table-top battlefield diorama with tokens for troops, progressively changing to increasingly life-like as you zoom in till you have near life size individual units at max zoom in.
Ultimately if CA aren't going to return to that Risk style they should be moving towards campaign map being zoomable directly into a battle like this.
I can think of some technical reasons why that isn't very likely to actually happen any time soon but they could at least make it a much less jarring transition.


i remember genghis khans II from Koei uses this,....
worldmap
regionmap
battlemapSounds like pretty much exactly what I'm wanting to see :)

[Shibumi]

Yeah, my first reaction when I saw the map was, 'well, so much for shibumi on the campaign map.' It's what I expected though.

What about me? ;)

I hope they will work on campaign AI, so the comp gets better on the strategy map, holding bridges and such :)

[Daveybaby]

I dont have a problem with the more detailed RTW style of campaign map in and of itself - IMHO what's really missing from the RTW/M2TW/ETW campaigns is simultaneous turns. Sequential turns really breaks immersivity for me and, i think, gives the player a huge advantage over the AI (i think this is also the reason that usefully retreating is next to impossible).

I think simultaneous turns could still be done with the current map style. You give units commands for the upcoming turn (e.g. guard, retreat, move to a location, patrol an area, wait in ambush, attack a unit etc), and when you click turn all units for all factions execute those commands. You still get popups for critical events (e.g. youre about to enter battle) with relevant options (attack or retreat?).

Other than that go for a pausable real-time campaign map. Probably not very popular i know but anything is better than sequential turns. Anything.