Dynasty

[Franconicus]

PRELUDE

My name is Arnold of Graetia. I am Benedictine of the Friary Opatowitz and I am going to report some weird events for the glorification of the Lord and as warning for all living.

The roots of my tale go back to a period of disarrangement and dispute among the Christian fold. The Antichrist, whose arrival is getting closer and closer, had managed to disunite the two leaders of the Imperium Christianum, the Vicarius Iesu Chrsiti and the Romanorum Imperator. A dark period indeed, known as Interregnum, began in the year of the Lord 1245 when Pontifex Innocent IV deposed the Romanorum Imperator Friedrich II. Heinrich Raspe became counter-emperor, but he died A.D. 1246.

Wilhelm von Holland became counter-emperor in 1247. And although Friedrich died A.D. 1250, it took until 1254 that Wilhelm was accepted as emperor – and he also died in 1256. When there was no one left to claim to be emperor, the prince-electors came together to elect the new emperor. There were seven electors and two candidates - Alfons von Kastilien and Richard von Cornwall. Everybody expected that the council would end the Interregnum. However, Ottokar II, King of Bohemia and one of the seven electors gave his vote for both candidates – in return for money. And so there were two emperors, again, and the confusion continued.
In this period of disorder, everybody quested for his own benefit. Princes tried to increase their influence; cities fought against their masters, knights converted from law enforcers to robber barons. The strong ones trusted in their strength instead of the law and the weak ones suffered.

A man of honor with a strong will and a strong arm could make his fortune and so did Ottokar, King of Bohemia. With the death of Friedrich II of Austria A.D. 1246, the line of the Babenberger went extinct and for a period of several decades the status of the Duchy of Austria was disputed. With artfulness and violence, Ottokar finally gained control of the duchies of Austria, Styria and Carinthia. At this point, he was the most powerful prince elector and natural aspirant of the throne of the Holy Roman Empire.

In 1273, several electors tried to install a new emperor to end the Interregnum. Maybe they were annoyed because of Ottokar’s attitude at the last election or they were simply because of his ambitions, the electors met together with Heinrich von Niederbayern, who took Ottokar’s position in the council and in October 1273 the electors agreed on a new candidate: Rudolf von Habsburg.

A strange choice in deed, as Rudolf did not seem to have any talent to rule the Holy Roman Empire. Although an experienced military leader, Rudolf was inexperienced in diplomacy and he was already 55 years old. Many speculated that his failings were the reason for his election.
Needless to say that Ottokar did not recognize the result of the election.
However, Rudolf quickly strengthened his position. He promised to organize a new crusade – what he never did - and received the approval of the Pope, who was finally tired of the dispute, too.
Rudolf also reinstalled the old order and passed a law that all territorial changes during the Interregnum had to be undone. Ottokar was supposed to give back the provinces of the Babenberger and to accept his own kingdom as a fiefdom from Rudolf.

Ottokar was request to declare his position at the Imperial Council of Augsburg AD 1275. He sent his agent, Werner von Marsbach, the Bishop of Sackau. Werner attitude at the council was so provoking, that the Council declared, that all of Ottokar’s estates subrogate to the crown, while Ottokar was under the Bann of the Empire.
During this time, Rudolf demonstrated his diplomatic skills. With strategic marriages he formed alliances with the Dukes Meinhard and Albrecht of Tyrol and the King of Hungary Ladislaus IV. Rudolf also gained support of Phillip von Spannheim and the Bishops of Regensburg and Passau and the Archbishop Friedrich of Salzburg. Friedrich began to court for the support of the Austrian peers, which were unhappy with Ottokar’s rule. This was too much for Ottokar and he attacked Salzburg.
Rudolf managed to get the support of the Archbishops of Cologne, who anathematized Ottokar.

But I wander from the subject.

Rudolf’s strategy became clear when the King of Bohemia started his campaign with the support of his only ally, the Markgraf von Brandenburg. The peers of Kärnten, Krain and Steiermark backslided Ottokar. Hereupon, Rudolf changed the direction of his advance and moved quickly to the Duchy of Austria to gain the Austrian peers. Before this he had made an agreement with Heinrich von Niederbayern, a former supporter of Ottokar, so that Rudolf’s army could move by ship along the Danube. The Austrian cities and abbey welcomed Rudolf, who marched much faster than expected. He took Linz, Enns, Ybbs and Tulln without a fight. Ottokar expected, that the siege of the strong Klosterneuburg would stop the advance of his opponent, but Ludwig von Oberbayern took the town with artfulness. Rudulf hurried on and laid siege on Vienna. At the same time. Ottokar was still at the area of the Marchfeld. He could not prevent the backsliding of all Austrian peers. Further more Bohemian peers were on arms against him and the King of Hungary seized Ödenburg.

Ottokar’s situation was hopeless and he had to negotiate with Rudolf. In the following he lost all Austrian provinces and had to take the Bohemian kingdom as a fiefdom from Rudolf.

This is going to be another type of interactive history - a high speed, quickstep one.

Rules are simple:
Everyone can jump in and play and jump out again at any time!
I post a chapter which ends with different options. You can decide - the third post decides!!!
Just as simple as that!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Herr Franconius is up to something good.... Again!


:balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2:

[Prince Cobra]

Hmmm, interesting...

[Peasant Phill]

And here I was thinking that Franc didn't have enough time anymore.
Anyway, I'm in.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Maybe he got burnt out with CoE.


INTERESTING idea!

[Franconicus]

This is going to be another type of interactive history - a high speed, quickstep one.

Rules are simple:
Everyone can jump in and play and jump out again at any time!
I post a chapter which ends with different options. You can decide - the third post decides!!!
Just as simple as that!

[Franconicus]

Chapter 1: SET-UP

Ottokar did not forget the abasement of the defeat without battle and the coerced peace. He was waiting for an opportunity to repay.
One year passed. And really, time seemed to work for the Bohemian King. The prince electors from the Rhine distanced themselves from the Emperor, probably because Rudolf became too powerful. Ottokar renewed the pact with Brandenburg; he made pacts of mutual assistance with the Silesian dukes. He supported the crusade of the Deutschen Ritterorden, which drastically improved his relationships with the church and the clerical princes. Finally, he paid for the neutrality of the Duke Heinrich von Niederbayern.
Now Ottokar was ready for revenge and he was only waiting for the right moment.

It was middle of May Anno Domini 1277, when a messenger arrived at castle of the Bohemian King at Prague. He was let directly to Ottokar. Soon afterwards the King summoned his advisors, Wladislaw von Schlesien, Archbishop von Salzburg and Ottokar’s chancellor and Werner von Marsbach, Bishop von Sackau. The two men had already been waiting in front of the door. They entered and took a bow.
“Ah, my friends”, said the King in good temper. “I just received some news. Can you guess it?”
Werner, who often supported his master on diplomatic missions, answered:
“Sire, I guess it is the message we have been waiting for a while.”
“You’re right! I received news from Northern Austria. Heinrich von Kuenring-Weitra concentrated all those that are still loyal to me and began an uprising. He sent to me for support.”
Werner replies: “If you send soldiers to support him, Rudolf will be forced to react. Without any doubt he will rush to Austria with an army to clear the situation, just like he did last time.”
“Without any doubt! And he will get a nasty surprise! Werner, how strong will the army of the Hohenzoller be?”
“Correct numbers are hard to guess, but we know his allies. He will mobilize his troops at Steiermark, Kärnten and Krain. He will also call for troops from his powerbase in the realm, from Nürnberg, Schwaben, Elsass and Switzerland. And of course he will call for his ally, the King of Hungary.”
“So how strong will he be?”
“Maybe 30,000 men in total. The core of the army may consist of 4,000 knights, maybe 5,000. Rest will be untrained peasants and some thousands Hungarian horse archers.”
Ottokar turned to his chancellor Wladislaw:
“And what will be our strength?”
“Well, Mylord, of course there our Bohemian knights, about 2,000 plus 500 from the Austrian provinces. Our allies from Brandenburg, Schlesien and Poland promised to send another 2,000 knights. Most of our men have armors.”
“So we have about 4,500 knights and Rudolf has 4,000”, Ottokar sums up. “This time I will meet him on the battlefield and nothing will help him. Alright, Wladislaw, send orders to all Bohemian knights. They shall get ready and come here to Prague. It is no use to hurry. Tell them to prepare carefully for the campaign and also get enough food. Also send immediately Paltram with 500 men to northern Austria. Ans send spies to Vienna and Budapest!
And you, Werner, send messengers to our allies! Tell them that it is time to honor their promises.”
Werner made a small bow. “Yes, Mylord. What are your orders regarding Heinrich von Niederbayern?”
“We agreed, that he will stay neutral, but he will try to slow down the troops of Rudolf and report about their movements. Just send him a message that it is about to start now.”
The King gave a sign to show that the audience is over. However, Wladislaw hesitated: “Mylord, may I ask a question? You decided to support the uprising at northern Austria to provoke a conflict with Rudolf, right?”
Ottokar bursts out: “Sure, and this time I am going to shatter him!”
Wladislaw went on: “Our forces will be stronger than Rudolf’s, especially with our strong armed knights. Furthermore, Rudolf will need some time to mobilize his army. Especially the Hungarians will need some time to join him as well as the knights from the north.”
Werner: “Right. It will be an easy victory. My advice is not to wait but to take our Bohemian knights and rush to Vienna and take the town. Maybe Rudolf is already there and we can capture him,”
Wlasilaw: “Is this what we want? If we hurry, we may reach the town before Rudolf is there. It is likely, that he reinforced the city walls and we would be forced to lay siege on Vienna. If Rudolf is still outside, he would gather his army while we are tied to Vienna.”
Walter: “Although I still believe we can assault the town quickly, we can wait until he is at Vienna and then besiege the town.”
Wladislaw: “We could. Let’s assume, Rudolf is inside the city walls, be lay siege upon it and we manage to keep the relief forces away. So what? Rudolf will be forced to capitulate and make peace. He would be forced to give back all Austrian provinces.”
Walter: “Exactly! As I said, we can easily achieve our goals!”
Wladislaw: “Really? Are these our goals? We would have to set Rudolf free and don’t you think that the first think he would do is to join his army and gather so much support as he can? I think we have a better option. Do not forget the lessons from the last campaign. Rudolf may be old, but he moves fast and he will certainly not try to hide behind walls. It will be easy to lure him into a battle on open ground. Here we could play off our strength, our heavy cavalry.”
Walter: “Why should we risk a battle, if we can beat him without? And even if we beat him on the battlefield, what would be the benefit? Do you think he would accept this kind of defeat more easily?”
Wladislaw: “Well, we all know how brutal and chaotic a battle can be. Rudolf will be among his knights and easily he could be killed during the fight. Once he is dead, all of Austria will be ours. Furthermore, a new emperor would be elected. With the new provinces and the prestige of the victory in the battle, who else could become emperor but Ottokar?”
Walter: “I agree, it would be helpful, if Rudolf dies. But why rely on the fortune of the battle? If we capture him at Vienna, we can kill him easily!”
Wladislaw: “Do not forget that he is the rightful emperor …”
Ottokar coughed.
“… or at least most of the princes think he is. And he is approved by the pope. The prince electors would hardly support the murderer of the emperor. But what happens in the heat of the battle is a different thing.”
Ottokar tilted his head thoughtful to a side: “I see. We should carefully think about it. There is enough time to decide later.”
Wladislaw: “Maybe not. We should send a message to Bavaria and tell Heinrich to do nothing to slow the movement of Rudolf’s troops. Let them hurry; let Rudolf combine his forces, while we are still mobilizing ours. Rudolf will march as fast as possible to outmaneuver us. We can wait for him and build up a trap to catch him.”
Walter: “Do not listen to Wladislaw, I say. His proposal would give all our advantages away. I still say, let Heinrich block the Danube, then we can hurry through Austria and take Vienna. If we follow Wladislaw's plan, we give away initiative and Rudolf gets the chance to trap us!”

Ottokar listened to the proposals of his advisors.
Should he
A) Send a message to Heinrich von Niederbayern to block the Danube, so that the march of Rudolf's troops will be slowed down or
B) Tell him just to observe and report, but not to disturb Hohenzoller's army?

[Prince Cobra]

~:Cough:~

It seems the honour to open the discussion is mine. Here are my thoughts.

First, we do not know the exact number of the enemy and we only believe that we have advantage. Second, battle could be unpredictable and in complexed situation we can always risk some of our retainers to switch to the opposite camp as it seems our reputation is not very good. In addition, it would be foolish not to use an advantage we have paid for. And so I recommend A) slow down the gathering of Rudolf's troops. I am also tempted by the idea to wait until Rudolf arrives in Vienna and to trap him there, although I am not very sure if it is included in the orders for this turn. A captured enemy is a big victory and if we manage to achieve that, then we can discuss the fate of the... Emperor. If we decide to release the Emperor (which is not quite sure with the big diversity of slow-killing potions and other niceties :evilgrin: ), his authority will be seriously damaged. And we can always delay his releasing for a month or two so that we assure that his authority is additionally damaged.

[King Kurt]

Second up - I believe we should go for B. This is as much about confidence and bluff, as it is about surprise. If Heinrich von Niederbayern ( why do these Germans have such long names and titles!!) holds him up, his suport for us is exposed and puts Rudolph on the defensive. We want him concentrated at Vienna, so let's let him get there.

Franc - a side issue - the "3rd person wins" is a great idea - but I nearly did not post as I wanted to be 3rd!! Perhaps it could be one of the first 3 posts wins, but only you know the number before the episode is posted - you could decide by dice etc - just a thought. One last point I suppose you mean the 3rd different person to post to stop one person posting 3 times!!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I'm keeping this short since I'm in computer class at the moment.


I pick A) and argee with Cobra with this. Slow his troops down so he is more likely to make a mistake then. We won't be trap unless we are not careful.

[AggonyDuck]

Heh, I think for too long.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hesitant can destroy a generals hopes of winning a battle! :laugh4::skull:

[Franconicus]

Franc - a side issue - the "3rd person wins" is a great idea - but I nearly did not post as I wanted to be 3rd!! Perhaps it could be one of the first 3 posts wins, but only you know the number before the episode is posted - you could decide by dice etc - just a thought. One last point I suppose you mean the 3rd different person to post to stop one person posting 3 times!!
I would like to try it my way. If there are more players - let's say 7, there will be enough pressure to post in time! :inquisitive:

Chapter 2 - Preparations

Ottokar shook his head: “Although I would not be sad to see Rudlof dead, I am not going to sit and wait here for him. Go, send the messengers and spies and prepare everything for our campaign.”

It was early December and a cold wind was blowing through the castle at Prague. Ottokar and his advisors sat by the fireside in front of the warming flames.
Wladislaw reports of the preparations for the campaign: “Paltram and our 500 men did their job. They arrived at northern Austria in June and attacked the estates of our enemies. The local piers were not able to keep the upraising down.
Here at Bohemia, our piers promised to arrive here at Prague next April, so we can start our campaign in spring. Everything will be ready then, arms, horses and food.”
“Excellent! What about our allies?”
“All replied our messages”, said Walter. “They will decamp as soon as the last snow will be gone. We expect their arrival end of April.”
“Good! Any news about our enemies?”
“Yes”, Walter answered. “Our spies have been very active. We have reports from Vienna. Obviously, the city expects an assault. The fortifications have been improved, the city guard is increased and the governor recruits mercenaries. It seems as if they also fill their magazines. We also see activities of the Austrian peers which make us assume that they get prepare for spring.
We also have a spy at the Hungarian court. Ladislaus gave order to mobilize his army in spring. He also recruited several thousand Cumans.
We received message from Niederbayern. Heinrich promised to block the Danube as good as possible. He already ordered to send all riverboats to Passau, so that Rudolf will not be able to use them. He also sent agents to Nürnberg. Rudolf is there and he is recruiting Franconian knights. Rudolf also sent agents to Swabia and Switzerland to enlist knights there. According to rumors he wants to gather his troops at Donauwörth and then marcha long the Danube.”
“Well done. I see that everything goes right. Go on with the preparations, Wladislaw, and keep an eye on our enemies, Walter!”
Wladislaw answered: “Yes, Sire. Just one more question. We will soon have a force with more than 4,500 knights and I will get the supply for them. However, I think it is time to wonder, if we also want to recruit peasants. Although they are worthless in the battle, they could help us with supply, build and guard the camp etc.. And we will need them if we have to besiege a city, for building the equipment, trenches and so on.”
Walter: “Well, I think that peasant will be a load we have to carry. They only slow us down and we will need much more food if we have a large group of peasants. No, we should try to relay on our mounted knights and be fast and flexile. Let’s keep them to a minimum, let’s say 5,000 – that’s one peasant for every knight. More than enough!”
Wladislaw: “Well, you might be right, if we were fighting Rudolf on open ground. But as far as I understood, we will have to besiege Vienna, maybe for months. I think we should have at least 25,000 peasants.”

If you were Ottokar, would you decide to recruit
A) 5,000 peasants or
B) 25,000 peasants?

[Kagemusha]

I would suggest for 25 000 peasants. While not so usefull, we need people for secondary tasks we should not occupy our knights with.

[King Kurt]

Second again!! - I go for 5,000 - let's be quick and mobile - we can always get peasants from around Vienna when we get there

[AggonyDuck]

I'd say A, as I don't think we should concentrate on besieging Vienna, but instead concentrate on defeating Rudolf before he can reach Vienna. If we can beat him in the open, we might even be able to acquire Vienna through diplomacy and no real siege.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Dang, I missed it. Curse you Ducky!! :laugh4::laugh4:

[Franconicus]

Chapter 3

The Iron King decided to enforce his army with 5,000 peasants and all winter long one could hear shouting of training as well as drone from the workshop of the armorer at the castle of Prague. Winter was cold and there was a lot of snow. At March, the sun came back and the annual competition between winter and spring began. April was a row of rainy days and at its end rained turned to snow again. Now it was beginning of May, the sun was shining and it seemed as if spring had finally gained upper hand.
The King and his advisors met once again in the throne hall. Warm wind blew threw the windows, carrying along the smell of spring and maybe also the smell of adventure and triumph.
Ottokar turned to his liegemen:
“I received message that Heinrich von Schlesien will arrive today. He is a brave man, in deed, and I appreciate that he is the first one that follows my call. I appreciate his advice and maybe we can go through our plan once again when he is near.”
Wladislaw replies: “Yes, my nephew will surely not put disgrace on our family. He must be 30 years old, the right age to lead men on the battle field.”
Ottokar: “Wladilaw, please summarize the state of our preparations!”
“Well, we recruited 5,000 peasants and tried to hammer some discipline into their heads, but they will never become soldiers. Our magazines are full. Every day now knights from Bohemia arrive to join our campaign. We have already 800 here; in the end, when Paltram returns, we will have 2,200 Bohemian knights; all with good equipment, maybe half of them with heavy armor.
The roads suffered a lot from frost and rain and therefore I sent 4,000 of our peasants to repair roads and bridges. We can call them back within two weeks.”
“Well done!”, the King turns to the Bishop of Sackau. “Now, Walter, tell me about our allies!”
“Yes, Sire! At first, our target, Vienna. The city obviously prepares for siege. They filled their magazines, destroyed all houses outside the city walls and recruited some 20,000 peasants. Furthermore there is the city guard and some companies of mercenaries. Furthermore, Vienna seems to be the gathering point for Rudolf’s army, just as we expected. There are already about one hundred knights from the Austrian peers there. We expect that soon there will be about 1,200 knights there.
Rudolf himself is not there, we heard that Ullrich II von Kapellen is the commander of this army.
Rudolf seems to be at Donauwörth. At least we received a message that from Niederbayern that he met with knights from Swabia, Switzerland and Franconia. In total maybe 1,500. Today he must be on the way through Niederbayern. We also heard the Ludwig von Oberbayern will meet him at Passau with 400 Bavarian knights. So Rudolf will come with an army of about 2,000 knights.
The third enemy is Hungary. The young Hungarian King Ladislaus built a big camp with 1,500 knights and 4,000 Kumans. They decamped mid of April and are expected to march to Vienna to meet Rudolf there.”
“Alright, let them come!”
At this moment the door was opened and a young men entered the room, Heinrich V (1248) von Schlesien, Herzog von Jauer. The three men got up and Ottokar went to meet him: “All hail to you, Heinrich! You are the first one that follows my call and I am sure you will be the first on the battle ground.”
“Milord, when I heard your call, there was no hesitation or rest. I am proud that I will get the opportunity to fight under your command to defeat your enemies and mine.”
“Sit down, my son. The servants may bring you some beers! We just discussed reports from our enemies. Rudolf is marching through Bavaria with about 2,000 knights, at Vienna the Austrian peers will wait for him with 1,200 knights and Hungary sends another 1,500 knights and 5,000 mounted archers. How many men do accompany you, Heinrich?”
“So Rudolf has about 4 and a half thousand knights and some bowmen? That’s a mighty army. Well, my contribution is only tiny. I bring you 800 knights.”
“Your help is more than welcome. And a brave leader like you are may be even more valuable than 800 knights. We have 2,200 knights from Bohemia and we expect more allies to come, don’t we, Walter?”
“Yes, Sire, we expect help from Breslau, from Oppeln-Ratibor and from Brandenburg. The first two may send contingents of about 700 knights each. Otto von Brandenburg may send 1,000 or even 1,500 knights.”
“So we will finally have some 5,000 men. Heinrich, we are prepared and this time we will make it.”
“Milord, what are your plans?”
“We are still discussing. And I would like to hear your opinion.”
Heinrich remained silent for a while. Then he lifted his head and said: “How many men can you gather in two weeks?”
His uncle, the Archbishop of Salzburg, answered: “In two weeks we have 1,700 Bohemian knights and 5,000 peasants. And your 800 Silesian knights.”
“2,500 knights in total. Then listen to my advice: It will take two weeks for my men to get ready for combat. Then I ask you to give me the command of your men and I will attack Ladislaus and his Hungarian before he can unit with Rudolf. I will defeat him and then turn to Vienna. On the way, I will meet with the rest of our army.”
Ottokar nods: “This is an idea. But the Hungarians are hard to get. Maybe it would be better to turn straight to the Hungarian capitol and to take it. Ladislaus would be forced to turn around and to attack you. Then you could decide when and where you fight.”
Walter adds: “Both ideas sound great. But do not forget that Vienna is our target. There are only 1,200 knights. Let Heinrich hurry to Vienna and assault the city. Then one third of Rudolf’s army is defeated, Vienna is occupied and his remaining armies are divided. Rudolf would be forced to negotiate.”
Wladislaw disagrees: “That is not what we want. I agree that each plan may work. But each plan also has risks. We should wait until all our allies arrive and then attack the enemy. We are stronger than they are. We should rely on our strength and avoid any risk!”

Which plan do you prefer?
A) Attack the Hungarians under Ladislaus?
B) Invade Hungary and assault the Hungarian capitol?
C) Go straight for Vienna?
D) Wait until your army is complete?

[Prince Cobra]

This is tough. I would exclude B and D. B is risky since we go to conquer Hungary, which will certainly rally the Hungarian nobles around their King, which means more forces and more problems. D gives the initiative to the enemy, I believe.

So we have 2 500 men for now

The dilemma is between C and A. Attack on Vienna is a risky option. If we want to win, we have to outsmart the Viennese garrison, lure him outside the walls and decimate him. And even then, the garrison is big and we will suffer a lot of casualties. We will also have to assault before Rudolf arrives with his 2 000 men. Heinrich will have to stay behind the newly conquered Vienna with few provisions and wait for reinforcements from the North. A risky option I believe.

A is also not perfect. The Cumans have supreme bows and will use their hit and run tactic which is deadly for the knights. Our only hope is to ambush King Ladislaus and defeat his knights decisively. At best, if we manage to capture him, the Cumans will simply disperse. So I vote for A and so we have to lay an ambush to Ladislaus. Another option is to attract the atention of the Cumans while simultaneously we move our main forces in the rear and try to hit him.


I am not sure whether the Viennese garrison is a threat for our rear while we ambush Laidislaulus. Perhaps not, since nothing is mentioned. But if it is, we can also deceive the enemy with a small/weak force (that should look big) so that he could think we are heading to besiege Vienna whilst our aim is to attack Ladislaulus.

The purpose of A in order to hit the knights of Ladislaulus and defeat them in ambush.


After so many words, I am still not very sure if A is the best option.After studying the map, if we modify C and decide to intercept Rudolf as Duckie suggested but before that we skilfully create the image that our purpose is Vienna, then we could ambush Rudolf somewhere around Linz. If Rudolf decides to decline the battle and pull back, their armies are split. So finally, I vote for C but we will not assault Vienna, definately.


http://maps.google.bg/maps?hl=bg&q=map+of+austria&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Austria&gl=bg&ei=7b6XTNftNsrGswafm4Vb&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ8gEwAA

[King Kurt]

Second as usual - no doubt the others are waiting to get the 3rd place

I agreee with Prince Cobra in that this is a hard choice. the attraction of defeating our enemies piecemeal is a good one, but it has its challenges. In some ways the most sensible option is to gather all our forces - but I am never one for sensible options!! We need to grasp the initative which means attacking the Hungarians or Vienna. The presence of the Cumans makes me nervious - it is difficult to see us ambushing a force with 4,000 light cavalry when we have none.

So I think I will opt for Prince's version of C - head for Vienna with the hope of catching the hungarians in an ambush - or any of the other enemies travelling towards Vienna. It would not be the end of the world to get there before others - we could catch them unawares.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Second as usual - no doubt the others are waiting to get the 3rd place



:yes:



I would say D. While I hate to wait, it is better in this case in my opinion then assault. You do not want to suffer to many dead and wounded only not to take the city and then have to face a relief force with a broken army.


D for me.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 4

The King reflected on the proposals of his advisors, but then he shakes his head:
“No, I know the Hungarians and it is difficult to catch them. I also want to avoid that you march to Vienna and get trapped by superior forces. No, we will wait. I have prepared this for so long; I will not take any risk. Go on with you preparations, we will decamp as soon as the others arrive.”

During the next weeks more and more allies arrived at the castle of Prague. There were Przemysl, Duke of Poznan and Heinrich IV, Duke of Breslau, with 900 knights as well as Wladislaus I, Duke of Oppeln-Ratibor, with 600 knights. Paltram returned with his 500 knights from his mission at Northern Austria.
King Ottokar invited all Dukes to a feast while the man camped at a meadow near the town.
It was already End of May and the troops of his strongest ally, Otto, Markgraf von Brandenburg, were still missing. The King became impatient and called for his two advisors and Heinrich von Schlesien.
“We are waiting our time! I am tired of sitting around, waiting for news from Brandenburg, while our enemies are obviously already active! Walter, any news from Rudolf?”
“Yes, Sire. He arrived at Passau on May 12th. There Ludwig joined his force. Rudolf rested four days. At May 17th he decamped with 1,800 knights and is now on the way to Vienna. We haven’t received any news from him since, but if he hurries, he may arrive there today or tomorrow.”
“What is the situation at Vienna?”
“The Austrians have a force of about 1,200 knight plus 22,000 peasants there.”
“And the Hungarians?”
“Well, frankly spoken, we lost their trace. We are waiting for news from our spies, but it could be that they were killed. However, we received a message that a group of Kumans was seen near Brünn two days ago.”
“Damned! What if Ladislaus marched straight to Vienna? Where would he be now?”
“Well, he could already be there, but we have to wait for more news from our spies at Vienna.”
“All right! How many men do we have ready for combat, Wladislaw?”
“Sire, there are 4,500 knights and 5,000 peasants waiting for your order. They can decamp immediately.”
Heinrich added: “And I say let them! The men are getting bored and it is getting harder to keep order. I say let’s not wait for Brandenburg, let us decamp and march versus Vienna today!”
Wladislaw: “Wait a moment, nephew! We do not know where Ladislaus is. He could have joined Rudolf, then Habsburg’s army is stronger than ours. We could be ambushed. We cannot avoid that Rudolf gets his army together, therefore it should be our aim to get our troops together as well. Brandenburg will send us more than 1,000 knights. I say let’s wait for them and then move with our joined force.”
Walter: “Maybe we should avoid a decisive battle until we have all our troops together. I agree with you, Wladislaw. But that does not mean that we have to remain in passiveness. First of all we must find the Hungarians and I propose that we send a small force of about 50 men to find them. Let Paltram lead them, he knows the area. Further more I suggest to move our army south, to get a better position. My proposal is to take Brünn. Then we are closer to Vienna and can keep an eye on the road to Budapest. When Brandenburg arrives, he can easily close in on us, because he has only knights, while we have 5,000 peasants.”

So once again,
A) March versus Vienna
B) Wait until Brandenburg arrives
C) March to Brünn and wait there for reinforcements.

[AggonyDuck]

Gah! So we have lost all chances of intercepting Rudolf and we have no idea where the Hungarians are....meaning we have lost the initiative and we risk being outmaneuvered. I don't like it one bit. As we have already lost the initiative we might as well be as strong as possible, so lets wait for Brandenburg. That way if the Cumans have set up some ambush, we will be able to overpower it. Now I'm just starting to regret that we didn't raise that 25,000 peasants as it looks like we can't rely on maneuver and initiative anymore to win this campaign.

Anyway my vote is B.

[Prince Cobra]

I use google maps again. Passau is not far from the Czech lands, Brunn (Brno now) is part of the Ottokar's domain, I think. I believe that the enemy is close/ even already on our land, perhaps the Viennese knights are also on our territory. Marching at Brunn means we accept a battle since I believe the united enemy is already on our territory. In my opinion, Rudolf accepted an aggressive tactic and is attacking us. He does not plan to wait for us in Vienna, he would rather come to Brunn! He knows we are eager to take Vienna and he will not miss the opportunity to intercept us before we could gather our army We have no other option but to wait for Brandenburg. Perhaps we have to prepare some kind of trap for the Cuman scout regiments that I believe will march in Central Bohemia to gain information.

So I vote for B. We should avoid battle until Brandenburg arrives. We should also disptach some troops to ambush the Cuman scouts (regiments) in Central Bohemia. The terrain is forested and mountaneous and it can allow us reduce (though not with much) the size of the enemy. The knowledge of the terrain, bows in the hands of those who can use them well or decent enough could help us deal with the Cumans.

[Csargo]

I like Prince's plan I say B as well. I don't know what the possibility of Brandenburg never showing up is, but if they don't it won't be good.

[Kagemusha]

I agree that there isnt much we can do right now other then wait. As there is no chance for us to have the initiative at the moment. I would suggest for us to start looking for a ground of our own choosing where to meet the combined armies of Rudolf. A place he must take to get to us. I am just bit worried if Brandenburg is going to come at all.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 5 – Waiting for Brandenburg

With heavy heart and against the protests of Heinrich von Schlesien Ottokar decided to stay at Prague and to wait for Brandenburg. He felt that something was going wrong, as obviously Rudolf grabbed initiative and he, Ottokar, had to expect an invasion. But there was no time to wonder what went wrong. The situation was getting more and more difficult and Ottokar had to get things straight.
“Fine! We will wait for Otto’s troops. But we will no longer remain dronish. You Heinrich, take 80 knights with light armors, chose those from the Brünn area and find those cursed Hungarians. I must know about their location and plans. I would not mind if you can ambush some of those Kumans in an ambush, but I entreat you to avoid a fight.
You, Walter, get me information from Vienna and Rudolf. I must know everything about his position and movements!”
“Yes Sire! I will put up a chain of gallopers to get a permanent connection to Vienna. However, please keep in mind, Vienna is far away and any news will take time to reach us!”
Two weeks passed by and it was already mid of June and at the castle of Prague one was still waiting for the allies from Brandenburg.
News came from Vienna. A galloper reported that Rudolf was still at Vienna 10 days ago. The galloper also reported that he had to bypass several patrols of the enemies to pass by. Since then no other galloper arrived from Vienna.
Heinrich von Schlesien returned on June 12th. He reported that he met small Kuman patrols north of Brünn. He had some minor quarrel with them and made two prisoners. They told him that Ladislaus’ camp was near Preßburg. He decided to ride further south to find out whether that was true. He found Kuman patrols almost everywhere. He could find Ladilaus’ camp at Preßburg, but he could not come close enough to confirm the number of is troops. To avoid combat, he had to retreat. He left 50 men at Brünn to watch the enemy and hurried back to Prague.
“We are too far away from the enemy. We must get closer to the front. Ladilaus’ riders could ride from Preßburg to Prague in six days. I made the distance in five days, so the Hungarians could already come tomorrow!”, Heinrich ended his report.
“Don’t worry! I doubt that Ladislaus will invade Bohemia with his riders. If he odes, he will wait for Rudolf, who seemed to be waiting at Vienna. You made a good job, Heinrich, but still I wish Brandenburg was coming.”
At this moment, a messenger entered the room and shouted loud: “They are coming! Brandenburg! He will arrive this evening!”
And really, before the sun disappeared in the west, Ottokar could welcome the commander of Brandenburg`s army:
“Welcome at Prague! I cannot say ho much we waited for your arrival!”
“Please excuse me, Sire! I know we are a bit late. My master Otto felt sick and was unable to lead the force and therefore he sent me. That led to some delay, unfortunately, but we used the time to recruit more men. Therefore I am glad to bring you 2,000 knights, which are burning to defeat Habsburg!”
“Your help is more than welcome. You and your men will get something to drink and eat immediately. Then rest, we will decamp as soon as possible.”
“Thank you, Sire. My men will follow your call. However, the march war long and exhausting. Our horses must be shoed and my men need some rest, too.”

He left the room and Ottokar turned to his advisors:
“Our force has now 6,500 knights, half of them with heavy armor. Additionally he have 5,000 peasants. The army will be ready to decamp end of June, finally. Now, what are your proposals?”
The three addressed person remained silent. Finally Walter began to speak: “Let me start with a proposal. Vienna is the price of this fight and still believe that we should go straight for it. We are much stronger than Rudolf. We should separate him from the Hungarians and then push him back behind the walls of Vienna.”
Heinrich disagreed: “That does not work. You forget that Ladislaus is much faster than we or Rudolf, because he has no infantry. Furthermore, the Kumans have patrols all over the country, so Ladislaus can react much faster. If we go for Vienna, we could either rush to Rudolf or he could attack our rear. No, that is too dangerous. As Ladislaus is far more flexible, we should attack him first. Therefore, we should attack him at Preßburg. With our knights, we are much stronger and we can defeat him before Rudolf arrives. If we drive him back to Budapest, we can turn around and attack Rudolf.”
The three men were reflecting the two proposals. Finally Wladislaw said: “Both plans are risky. And that only shows, that our position has becoming worse than we expected. I agree that it would be childish to attack Rudolf, who can retreat behind the city walls, while the Hungarians are in our back. Yet I think that it is impossible to force Ladislaus to fight. What if he retreats and marches eastwards. This would give Rudolf many options.”
Heinrich defended his plan: “We could lure the Hungarians with a small force of light armored soldiers. If they attack, they would run into an ambush of our heavy armed knights.”
Wladislaw: “Didn’t you say that the Kumans are everywhere? How do you think we could ambush Ladislaus. He will certainly not try to win a battle without Rudolf. No, as far as I see, there is only one option left. We have to improve our position slowly and try to find a way so we can decide when and where we fight. My proposal is to make the army march to Brünn as fast as possible. South of Brünn, there is a river. We should occupy all bridges and then clear the area north of the river from Kumans. Then we will wait for Rudolf.”

So again it is
A) Attack Rudolf at Vienna
B) Attack Ladislaus at Preßburg
C) Move to Brünn and clear the area from Kumans.
D) Any other proposals?
Homework: If you vote for C), try to find a location where the battle should be.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

A


Perhaps we can destroy him and attack behind us before we get outflanked?

[Kagemusha]

I definetely think we should not go to Vienna and march into a trap and I think we should not go as far as Brünn, as this gives Rudolph possibility of flank marching us by moving against Prague via Gmünd, while we are too far east to catch him before his troops would reach our capital. So i propose a plan D). We will clear the roads of Cumans and Zsekely to the South and East. Fortify bridges of Thaya/ Dyje river which runs at the border of Austria and Bohemia. The main crossings are at Břeclav, Znojmo and Gmünd. Meanwhile our main army will march to Iglau/ Jihlava and will act as mobile reserve, while we commit our peasants to defend and delay enemy forces with some portion of knights at the major crossing points of Thaya river. I am aware that our peasants cant hold a crossing for long against Rudolphs army, but the plan is not to keep Rudolph´s army South of the river, but force him to fight his way a cross and once our main forces arrive the river will be behind his back, which means he is trapped more or less, this will also hamper the horse archers ability of manouvering as they have to face our knights head on or drown in the river. This way we will either force Rudolph to fight on the ground of our choosing or stay idle, which will hamper his prestige. By keeping our mounted knight army at Iglau, we can move very fast to defend any crossing, because Iglau is at crossroads, which provides us fast movement to any direction Rudolph might take, while still we would be keeping our main force between Rudolph, the Hungarians and our capital. Also we should use some coin, so we can get information from either Pressburg or Vienna if our enemies will make a move.

Here is a map that makes my plan more easy to understand:

https://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8619/864a.th.jpg (https://img695.imageshack.us/i/864a.jpg/)

[Franconicus]

:inquisitive:No one dares to decide?

[Prince Cobra]

It's time for me to strike.

First, I thank Kage for the map. I don't think Rudlf will be able to march to Prague and assault it. He needs siege equipment and we may send few scouts to observe the area north of Gmund as well as the shortest road to Prague. We may also alert the governor of Prague to prepare the citizens of Prague and also to bluff that we have still some knights left there. I fear we will extend our line too much to stretch between Gmund and Breclav. Part of our regiments are slow and I won't give such an advantage. I put my life on smaller region between Svratka and Dyja with scouts on a larger area to prevent being flanked

Now the plan. I also go for C. However, I will concetrate on a smaller area than Kage with scouts patrolling a larger area (west of Znoimo + east south and North of Brno + the area Northern than Dije (southern than our camp)); this work could be perfectly done by mounted peasants). We can also make puncts with woods that should be lightened as a signal in order to ease the communications I choose the battlefield between the river Svratka and Dyje. We clear the barbarian scum between the rivers and occupy the bridges. We destroy the bridges so that the rivers could be srossed only in the area of Znojmo, Brunn and the area where the rivers of Svratka and Dyja cross (the road Vienna-Brunn). Yet we should have men to patrol around the banks of Svratka and Dyja. The bridge of Znojmo has a surpise it should be damaged so that the light troops can pass on him but the heavy troops will break the bridge and it will sunk. We will fortify it as the other main bridges of course, we may also surround the guarding camps with a wooden wall. We alert the population of Brunn and prepare its defenses, even gather some supplies and mobilise the local citizens and we may also leave a small number (400) of knights (300 light and 100 heavy) to strenghten the garrison + 1 000 peasants. The heart and the main knight forcesof our amry (the King's tent) is is sutated on 30-35 km from Brunn, about 25 km from Znojmo and 15 km from the bridges where Svratka and Dyja join and the road Vienna-Brno. Note that some regiments are closer than other to these places. Our amry will situate east than Znojmo and west from the road between Brno and Vienna. We should also cut some trees and get some tar/burning materials from the fortress of Brunn. We control the upper part of the river an it s easy to surprise the enemy by flowing burning materials (like tar) and burning woods to hamper the crossing of the river. Of course, we leave sufficient force to guard the bridges but I will not go in many details since I don't know so many details. ~;) I also think the peasants should guard the bridges supported by some knights + those who can ride can work as scouts (in which they can be supported by a small number of knights on the most responsible places)

I approve the idea of kage to work with the coin to gain info. After all Ottokar is also nicknamed as the Golden King (as well as being the Iron KIng).

The lot is drawn, friends. Amen! :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:

[Kagemusha]

I think Prince Cobra´s plan is solid otherwise, but the critical error in it is that it assumes that the enemy will behave like we would like for him to behave. First thing to do when looking for a defensive position is to make attacking it attractive for the enemy. It should not appear to be too strong or the enemy will evade it.
While you are right about the fact that Rudolph cant storm Prague atleast for now, leaving the door open for him at Gmund is foolish for other reasons. If we concentrate on a small area, it doesnt take a genius to understand that going head on against such position would not be wise.
While Rudolph could not reach our capital, gathering his whole army at Vienna and marching West crossing Dyje river at Gmund will give him several benefits over us. First there is not a single river pointing from West to East between Prague and Gmund. Second the area is more or less open, which gives the Hungarian light horse space to manouver. Third by moving North towards Prague, he will threaten our supply lines, thus most likely forcing us to fight him where he wants us to do so.
Also by destroying majority of the bridges south from us, will deny us the possibility of marching South against Vienna, not that we have enough peasants to besiege it successfully in the first place. Im quite afraid this decision will only result in us withdrawing back to Prague in bit of time, while the Habsburg will be ravaging our lands.

I cant help, but to hope he will attack our strong position and does not simply evade us, but like said before alea jacta est.

[Kagemusha]

double post.

[Prince Cobra]

Let me adress some of the critiscism. First, Znojmo is attractive enough I think since it offers a flanking maneouvre to the enemy. I deliberately did not want to weaken the defense of the bridge because this could only make Rudolf suuspicious. In addition, I believe Rudolf will try to take Znojmo in order to have a shortcut towards us. Sooner or later. Second, Gmund will is relatively far from the Hungarian knights and Vienna. Enemy will have to march a lot if he wishes to cross the bridge at Gmund and doing this means he accepts a battle with us. On our land with tired opponent. It is too risky to stretch our on 50-100 kilometres since it makes the coordination hard and makes it easy for the enemy to crush our army regiments one by one. . I hope FRanc will be able to bring as the next doses of theis Interactive soon.

We still have th bridges of Dyje-Svratka for offensive. ALthough in the current situation I prefer to lure the enemy inside our lands and crush him there.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 6 - Brünn

June 15th, the army of the Iron King and his allies finally left Prague. Before, they had attended Mass and the leaders of the allied troops took oaths to stick together and to follow Ottokar until his enemy is defeated.
It was a bright early summer day when the columns passed the gates of Prague. Ottokar watched them as they passed and the sight of so many brave and strong men increased his confidence, again. First he saw the 30 years old Heinrich von Schlesien, the nephew of his chancellor Wladislaw, on top of 800 knights, then there came 900 knights from Breslau, led by Przeml, Duke of Poznan, and Heinrich, Duke of Breslau, both just 20 years old, followed by the 50 years old Duke of Oppeln-Ratibor with 600 knights and the knights from Brandenburg, 2,000 by numbers, led by Ekkehardt von Ruppin. The end of the marching column was built by Ottokar’s own troops, 2,200 knights under the command of Wladislaw and finally Walter with 5,000 peasants.
Ottokar saw 6,500 armed knights passing by, the strongest knight force in Christian history. Now that his forces are finally united and on the march Ottokar is relieved. This time, Rudolf will be defeated, regardless of all his tricks and luck.

June 22nd, the army arrived at Brünn. On the way, several Kuman patrols had been spotted, but they had not dared to come to close to the mighty Bohemian army.
Brünn itself was already crowded with refugees from the surroundings and from the south. More than three times as many people as usually living at Brünn were fill the streets. The city walls were well and would resist any assault from the Kumans. However, the town would hardly be able to stand a long siege.
Ottokar decided to leave Brünn immediately. He left 400 knights and 1,000 peasants as garrison and moved to his new headquarter at Rossitz. The main body of his army camped about 30 km from Brünn.
Heinrich von Schlesien along with his knights and 1,000 peasants was sent directly to recon and guard the western and southern approaches. His goals were to destroy all bridges west of Znaim and to guard those between Znaim and the road from Brünn to Vienna.
At June 29th, he returned to the head quarter to report Ottokar and the leaders of the detachments.
“Sire, I have reasons to complain! These foolish peasant made it impossible to execute my mission. I’d rather fight Rudolf all alone with my Silesian knights and further bother with these weak-minded, chicken heated peasants. Let me tell you what happened! We marched to Znaim, where I set up my camp. From here I sent mounted patrols north to Jihlava. I used groups of five mounted peasants for that. Oh man, these peasants sat on the horses like sacks of flour. Well, although I sent several patrols, none ever came back. Did they loose their way or just fell from their horses and broke their backs, I do not know. So I had to send mixed groups of peasants and knights, but in the end it showed that single light armed knights were suited best for this missions and I kept the remaining peasants at the river Thaya.
We destroyed the bridges as you told me and I placed posts all along the river. We also built barricades at the remaining bridges. However, we could not take control of the bridges of Drosendorf and Laa, as both places have fortified military camps with Imperial garrisons.
I left the peasants at the bridges we took and all along the river and kept my men as a mobile reserve. We had light signals everywhere, so we could be alarmed very quickly. And hell – alarmed we were. We had 52 alarms during the first night and yet we could not find one single enemy. Next day, the garrison of a bridge run away in terror by the sight of a travelling hawker. In total we miss about 500 peasants.”
“Any conflicts with Imperial troops or Kumans?”
“No, Sire. We saw some Kuman patrols and we know that they observed us carefully, but they kept distance. And no – no Imperial troops!”
“The camps at Drosendorf and Laa – I built them once to keep the Hungarians from crossing the river. How strong are the garrisons there?”
“Not too strong. With our army we could take them easily.”
“Walter, do we have news about Rudolf?”
“Well, Sire, we have a spy now inside Vienna, but it is still difficult to get the information from Vienna to our HQ. As far as we know, Rudolf and his whole army is still at Vienna. Our man tells us that he is waiting for knights from Alsace.”
“What about the Hungarians?”
“Err, he sent several reconnaissance patrols, but none returned. All we know comes from refugees from northern Austria. It seems as if the Hungarians are slowly moving northwards along the march, but we know nothing about their deployment or intentions. Maybe they want to occupy the rebel territories and demonstrate that we are unable to help them, maybe they want to bypass us or even lure us. We just know little about them.”
“Alright my friends and allies, what do you think would be the best plan to defeat our enemy?”
Wladislaw stood up: “Sire, I think it would be best to take a defensive position. We should attack first Drosendorf and then Laa. Then we control the river and it will be hard for Rudolf to cross it. Then we can wait and decide what to do. Maybe we can fight Rudolf at the bridges or lure him into our territory and attack him when the Thaya is in his back!”
Ekkehardt von Ruppin disagreed: “Gah, waiting! We have been waiting far too long. I did not come from Brandenburg to hide behind a river. This may be the way heathens and peasants fight, but not Christian knights. My man will fight with honor and rather rely on the strength of their arms and in God than on a river. I say we should do this in the old way, let’s find a wide and plain field and offer Rudolf a battle there!”
Heinrich von Schlesien: “Maybe we can combine both proposals. We could lead the army to the Thaya and assault first Drosendorf and the Laa. This would probably attract Rudolf. Yet, we will not wait for him but retreat across the river and destroy all bridges besides the one of Drosendorf and Laa, which we protect with some garrisons. This will slow Rudolf down. In the meantime, our army will hurry eastwards to the River March, which we then follow southwards to hit the Hungarians. The area there is plain and open and the river could cover our left flank. Marching south we would either meet the Hungarian army or at least drive her out of Northern Austria.”
Other men rose to tell their opinion, and it showed that most of the men preferred the option of an open battle instead of tactical maneuvers.
While the discussion was still going on, a servant came and brought the message that the guards brought a messenger from Rudolf. Ottokar called him in and asked him to tell his message.
“Well, listen to the message sent my master, the noble Romanum Imperator! We, Rudolf, Imperator by the Grace of God, inform Ottokar, King of Bohemia by the Grace of the Roman Imperator and his followers, that We, Rudolf, put the ban of the Empire on Ottokar, because he disobeyed and disturbed the order of the Holy Roman Empire. This means, that he looses all his ranks and titles and that no one is allowed to help him in any way. Further more We inform you, that the Holy Roma Church anathematized Ottokar because he rebelled against the authority of the God given authority.
Therefore we demand that Ottokar puts down his arm and comes alone to Vienna to knuckle down to the jurisdiction of the Imperator. We also demand that all his followers leave him immediately and return home peacefully.”
When he ended, no one said a word. Everybody was looking at the reaction of Bohemian King.

What will he do?
A) Follow Wladislaw’s proposal and build a defensive position at the river Thaya?
B) Follow Ekkehardt’s plan and offer a battle on plain ground?
C) Follow Heinrich’s plan and attack the Hungarians?
D) Follow the order of Rudolf?
E) Something else?

[AggonyDuck]

C for me.

[Kagemusha]

I say A. We dont know the position of Hungarians and attacking something we cant position on the map does not sound like a solid idea. If we can prove to other lords of HRE that Rudolph cant dislodge us at all and cant even attack our lands properly, will mean that he is too weak to be a an emperor. Small victories along the Thaya river should be used to create propaganda that Bohemia threw the Imperial troops from her area with ease.

What the Kaiser´s emissary said is not a news at all, just repetition of old with goal of making our determination more weak.

Do we have information about the where abouts of the Knights coming from Alsace? If Rudolph will remain in Vienna, maybe we should prepare to take the initiative from him, by preparing an well placed invasion against his lands after securing Thaya river? We could cut off the road between Regensburg and Vienna by taking either Linz or Deggendorf, thus we would cut off Kaiser from his reinforcements or even defeat those armies separately. If we could quickly secure either of those cities, it would mean that Rudolph would have to cross Danube this time to get his supply lines open as both towns are on the North side of Danube.

Lets have a good conversation about this before we make a decision.:bow:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

A also. Kage is right. Besides, do we really want to risk going on the offensive and have to be the first ones to cross the river? What happens if we get attacked then, then we be the ones in trouble.

[Franconicus]

Btw, can we discuss things in the thread without making a decision? I mean if I am the third poster and I say... I won't pick any option but my idea is so and so... Is this allowed?

Certainly you can!

[Prince Cobra]

Certainly you can!

Thanks for the answer, Franc. My idea is to pull out the 400 knights and the 1 000 peasants from Brunn (who should join the army as reserve) and also to make the population in Brunn to gather additional supplies. I am not very sure if this is not already included in the options, though.

I agree that we should monitor movement of the Alsace knights. Weshould launch an attack on Western Austria only in very specific conditions.

The supply line of Hapsburg comes from his nearest lands i.e. Austria. Expedition towards Linz should not be to take over the city (which as a sole purpose is unnecessary since we will have to march back to defend our lands) but to destroy/isolate the Alsace army. This is what our single purpose should be in case we opt to open our Bohemian lands for attack. I am also irritated we have to put to danger our allies from Northern Austria so we should have really a very very good reason to do that. We should also remember that our opponents (mainly the Hungarians) are a bit faster than us
----
We also need a good spy in Bavaria.

[Kagemusha]

Thanks for the answer, Franc. My idea is to pull out the 400 knights and the 1 000 peasants from Brunn (who should join the army as reserve) and also to make the population in Brunn to gather additional supplies. I am not very sure if this is not already included in the options, though.

I agree that we should monitor movement of the Alsace knights. Weshould launch an attack on Western Austria only in very specific conditions.

The supply line of Hapsburg comes from his nearest lands i.e. Austria. Expedition towards Linz should not be to take over the city (which as a sole purpose is unnecessary since we will have to march back to defend our lands) but to destroy/isolate the Alsace army. This is what our single purpose should be in case we opt to open our Bohemian lands for attack. I am also irritated we have to put to danger our allies from Northern Austria so we should have really a very very good reason to do that. We should also remember that our opponents (mainly the Hungarians) are a bit faster than us
----
We also need a good spy in Bavaria.

I agree that the conditions should be favourable incase we attack western Austria. I believe we could mask our movement West as we are behind a river, so information concerning our moves should be scarce to Kaiser also. Taking Linz would be a move to yet again try and force Kaiser to fight us at place of our own choosing, incase the Kaiser will just sit idle in Vienna, but lets see if he is willing to come to us without need for us to manouver.

[King Kurt]

I believe the time has come for some reflection here. We have a significant army concentrated at one place. Our enemy has a slightly smaller force split in at least 2 locations. It is not in his interest to attack us - I believe his approach is to wait until we are split by religious tensions - hence the appearance of his envoy. Time is on his side - it is already mid June. If autumn comes with no result, then our forces will disappate. So we should strike to bring the situation to a head - so that rules out A or D. So that leaves B - an option based on sitting on some open ground and hoping somebody turns up - not very likely as we have an advantage in numbers. So that leaves C. I believe that C has merits in that we will threaten part of our enemy's army - the Hungarians who we may catch and defeat. if that doesn't happen, then we march on Vienna - forcing the Kaiser to defend himself, giving us the battle - or seige - we want. So my vote is for C - it has some dangers, but we need to take the battle to them - I don't believe they will move against us because they have no need to - time is their strongest ally.

[Kagemusha]

I beg to differ. I cant see time being any more our enemy then our enemies. Each day the rebellion continues Rudolph throne looses prestige.Even when foreign allies are supporting them. As long as we can protect our area. It is him who has the pressure to defeat this rebellion. We have been successful so far and i think the pressure is with Kaiser.

[Prince Cobra]

In fact none of the options is prefect. The problem is that the Hungarians are a bit faster and Rudolf could hide behind a wall if confronted close to Vienna.

As long as there are rebels in Northern Austria (in his own domain) time is not working for Rudolf. As long as there are knights from Alsace time is not working for us. The move to assault the defenses of Thaya and to throw the glove at Rudolf's face is interesting. We also keep our central position. I approve the plan for now but we have to remember that passive defense should not be overdosed especially when a reifnorcement may arrive.

About the emissary: a nice speech from Ottokar should show who is the Iron King and neutralise the effots of this plotter who dared to involve such a Holy institution as the Papacy for fulfilling his ambitions

[Franconicus]

Chapter 7 – Waiting for Rudolf

Wladislaw finally interrupted the silence: “Lords. I hope that Rudolf message does not affect your loyalty. We all knew that our enemy is the Emperor, so the ban of the Empire is not a big surprise. We fix this, as soon as Rudolf is defeated. However, it is a surprise, that the church anathematized Ottokar. Frankly spoken, we did not expect this at all and I am almost sure that it is not true!”
Ekkehardt replied: “True or not, it does not matter much!”
Heinrich von Schlesien: “Yes, it does not matter! We stand to our oath and we will support you, Ottokar, until Rudolf is defeated.”
Most of the lords seemed to agree, but Ekkehardt said:
“Let me try to make some things clear. My master, Otto von Brandenburg, sent me to help you against Rudolf. He knew that the enemy is the Emperor himself and did not care. It may be true or not that the church banned you, Brandenburg will keep his word and so will I. However, most of the knights that came with me are volunteers and they may return, if they do not believe in your case anymore. The majority of them fought as crusaders in the past or will crusade next spring. They will not be happy if they fight against the church. This makes Rudolf’s message so dangerous. But there are other issues. We at Brandenburg have a lot of practice in warfare. Most of the time we fight pagans in the swamps and forests of the east. Our strategy is simple, we try to find the enemy, attack and defeat him. That is the way a Christian soldiers should fight. We do not hide behind rivers, our only protections are belief in Christ and our shield. Therefore, my men get bored and impatient. Another thing is that we certainly will return home before winter. We came here to fight Rudolf, not to wait for him. And next spring, most of the men are going to crusade, again.”
Wladislaw: “Ekkehardt, I understand your points and I can assure you we will end this conflict this autumn. No one wants to wait until winter. I am sure that decision is close. Rudolf will not wait forever at Vienna, and soon you will be able to show your experience in battle.”
Ottokar raised his voice: “Indeed! And until then, I will give you opportunities to keep yourself busy. Heinrich, you and your men will camp at Znaim. Call the troops from Brünn and build the defenses at the river crossings. Also patrol with your men along the northern bank between Drosendorf and Laa, but send the peasants to me. I will move with the main body of the army to Drosendorf. Ekkehard, you and your men may besiege the Imperial camp, there and then move further to assault Laa!”

Orders were sent and soon the detachments of Ottokar’s army were marching against the enemy – for the time being only against the rather small garrisons of Drosendorf and Laa. Drosendorf was encircled on July 18th. For a week, the peasants built equipment to storm the camp. When scaling ladders and battering rams were ready and the knights of Brandenburg got ready to assault, the garrison laid down its weapons and opened the gates. Ottokar’s army marched downstream and arrived Laa at August 5th and began besieges this camp, too.
However, at August 18th, news arrived at the HQ: Rudolf and his army left Vienna on August 13th. Now it is time for Ottokar to make a decision:

A) Gather his army south of the River Thaya and wait for Rudolf?
B) Retreat to the northern bank of the river and wait there?
C) Something else?

[Kagemusha]

Lets not be hasty now, but think carefully. Any news about the Hungarians? Or the Alsacean knights?Also do we have any idea what direction Rudolph is moving? It seems Rudolph is cautious in his moves and he could be just marching West or East in order to link either with the Hungarians or Alsaceans.

In battle of Kressenburn our armies defeated Hungarians with tactics by luring our enemies across a river and then forcing them to fight on the river on their back. Here is a link to the battle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kressenbrunn

It could be that Rudolph will not fall for such tactics. Rudolph has left Vienna only five days a go. We have been at Laa for over an week, so we should be ready to take it. We could take Laa and invade Austria. March South and set camp in the direction of Vienna. While marching South we should secure any crossings of river Morava and secure our left flank by that. Sack Northern Austria and march to Danube North of Vienna. Then we would be positioned Danube on our South and Morava on our East defended by two rivers while we would have taken the war to the enemy. If Rudolph will be marching towards our direction we will meet him in battle without his Hungarian allies and crush him. If the Hungarians have crossed Morava and are marching towards here together with Rudolph or just behind him, we should use the original plan and try and lure them to cross the river. If he has gone East towards Bratislava we are in just as good defensive position as earlier a river to our South and East, this time on their territory and if he has gone West to join the Alsacians. We should forget this plan or revise it.

In order to have any real plan.It is crucial to know the direction of Kaiser is marching, direction of the Alsacaens and the direction of Hungarians.

Here is a map of Austria to better understand the plan:

https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7339/austriamap.th.gif (https://img824.imageshack.us/i/austriamap.gif/)

[King Kurt]

I'm with Kage on this one - We need to take the battle to Rudolph - my fears about our allies etc were sounded out by Ekkehardt - we need to take Laa and press on into Austria

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I'm also with Kage and KK here. Lets roll with this plan and push ourselves into Osterreich.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 8 – Where is Rudolf?

Ottokar knew that it was time for a decision and was finally willing to confront Rudolf. He still new nothing about the plans of his rival, he did not even know his concrete strength or position. Hell, Rudolf could be close, he could even attack tomorrow, while Ottokar’s troops were still spread all over.
Ottokar’s first step was to send a message to Heinrich to make him gather all troops left on the northern side of the Thaya and to cross the river as fast as possible. And he prayed to the saints that Heinrich would arrive in time.
Next he sent more patrols to scan the whole area between the Thaya and the Danube. Rudolf had to be there and he, Ottokar, had to find out where. He also sent out patrols to watch the Hungarians. It was likely that Rudolf would try to combine his forces. Yet, the Kumans made it difficult to reconnaissance. Ottokar had to admit that Rudolf could take advantage of better reconnaissance. But there was nothing he could do about this now.
Finally, Ottokar talked with the military leaders in his camp. He gave Ekkehardt the order to assault the camp of Laa immediately and told the rest to get ready for combat. In case of need, they had to give Rudolf the runaround until Heinrich appeared.
Next morning, the knights from Brandenburg began to charge. The low walls made of earth and wood could not resist the massive attack and the garrison retreated into the central tower, the only building made of stones. Ekkehardt goaded his men to take this last bastion. However, all charges stalled in the narrow and barricaded stairways, while the garrison threw stones and oil at the knights. Ekkehard changed his strategy and told his men to stack wood around the tower. His first attempt to defeat the defenders with fire failed due to strong wind, which carried the flames away. Yet, Ekkehardt was not willing to give up and the peasants had to rack up more wood. Finally the bastion was enveloped by flames and smoke and the garrison was forced to surrender.
Heinrich arrived on August 22nd and Ottokar thanked the saints that his army was united again. Several patrol returned without information about Rudolf’s route. Finally a patrol returned from the far east and brought clearance. Rudolf had left Vienna on August 13th. Obviously, he had put all his infantry and baggage on ships and sailed downstream the Danube as fast as he could. His cavalry travelled on the banks of the river. Rudolf urged his troops to speed up and he reached the mouth of the River March at the evening of the 14th. Here he met with the Hungarians. With his joined forces he began to march along the River March and assaulted Marchegg on 15th. He devastated the estates of his enemies and several peers from northern Austria, although loyal followers of the Bohemian King, had to surrender and to beg for mercy. Currently, Rudolf and his men were still heading north. It seemed as if the want to put an end to the rebellion and punish all rebels.
The patrol gained this information from refugees, which tried to escape the Kuman hordes. However, the patrol had not been able to get close enough to observe Richard’s advance.
Although the news was unexpected, Ottokar was relieved to learn where his enemy was. Now he could decide what to do:

A) March to Vienna; the city is undefended and could easily be picked up.
B) Hurry to the River March and attack Rudolf. The area is plain and ideal for a battle with mounted forces.
C) Move to Lundenburg (Breclav); there is a fortress, where you could wait for Rudolf behind the walls.

[Kagemusha]

I cant see how in our right mind could we move past our enemies and to Vienna and take the city before we get attacked by them? I dont think we should not race to March either, nor should we retreat to Breclav. Between us and Rudolph, but closer to us, is Mistelbach on the North shore of river Zaya, which runs from East to West between us and our enemies. We should take Mistelbach and secure the river crossings of Zaya and also any crossings of River March on our left flank. This would result in two things.First we would be protecting the rest of our Austrian allies there and force Rudolph to attack us on favourable ground now that his whole army is gathered. We should also put to sword any supporters of the Kaiser between rivers Thaya, Zaya and March. With this tactic we would have taken the war to the enemy country and secured a foothold there at favourable position. Rudolph is a sneaky fox and we should not act rashly now.

Here is yet another map:

https://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8707/mapan.th.gif (https://img801.imageshack.us/i/mapan.gif/)

[AggonyDuck]

A) March to Vienna. I don't think we can afford to sit idle and neither should we attempt to fight Rudolf on his terms. If we march for Vienna, we will force Rudolf to react and can hopefully separate his mounted troops from the slower peasants and baggage train. That would essentially be the best opportunity for us to defeat him.

[Seign Thelas]

Suppose we had a mix of A and B. Send a small force to delay Rudolph with guerilla tactics, or, even better, just dig in and defend the opposite banks at the River March, and at the same time send the bulk of our forces to swipe Vienna. Of course the delaying tactic could possibly be suicide...but the troops need not know that.

Final Answer: I say send a small group of men to fortify the bank opposite of Rudolph at the River March, dig in and commit to defense, while sending the bulk of our knights and army straight to the lightly defended Vienna. We'll take the rug out from beneath their feet all at once. And if we take Vienna quickly enough, possibly send notice to the delaying force to make a hasty retreat.

[Kagemusha]

Suppose we had a mix of A and B. Send a small force to delay Rudolph with guerilla tactics, or, even better, just dig in and defend the opposite banks at the River March, and at the same time send the bulk of our forces to swipe Vienna. Of course the delaying tactic could possibly be suicide...but the troops need not know that.

Final Answer: I say send a small group of men to fortify the bank opposite of Rudolph at the River March, dig in and commit to defense, while sending the bulk of our knights and army straight to the lightly defended Vienna. We'll take the rug out from beneath their feet all at once. And if we take Vienna quickly enough, possibly send notice to the delaying force to make a hasty retreat.

The problem with this one is that Rudolph is on the Western bank of March already moving North and so are the Hungarians. Let us hope he has not left any kind of garrison to Vienna, since we dont have enough peasants for proper siege and soon we will have more szekely and cumans harassing our rear we ever need, while marching South and the enemy army behind us cutting us off from our supply base.

[Franconicus]

Suppose we had a mix of A and B. Send a small force to delay Rudolph with guerilla tactics, or, even better, just dig in and defend the opposite banks at the River March, and at the same time send the bulk of our forces to swipe Vienna. Of course the delaying tactic could possibly be suicide...but the troops need not know that.

Final Answer: I say send a small group of men to fortify the bank opposite of Rudolph at the River March, dig in and commit to defense, while sending the bulk of our knights and army straight to the lightly defended Vienna. We'll take the rug out from beneath their feet all at once. And if we take Vienna quickly enough, possibly send notice to the delaying force to make a hasty retreat.

ST, Kage is right, Rudolf is on the left bank - on your side. Could you give more details? Where do you want to stop Rudi and hwhich units do you want to sent?

[Kagemusha]

Now that Franc affirmed my fears. Seign Thelas, please reconsider. Rudolph is along the March river, somewhere between Danube and Zaya rivers, so he is South from us. If we go to Vienna. We should somehow march twice the distance there faster then the imperial army. Rudolph only needs to choose a nice open defensive position between us and Vienna and we have committed ourselves in decisive battle on a ground not of our choosing, where the Hungarians can run circles around us untill we are exhausted.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Or we can just beat him to the punch and attempt to out run him,fighting though him if needed.


A).

[Seign Thelas]

Then just commit to battle. It's an urgent matter. You have to do something. You can't just wait.

[AggonyDuck]

Now that Franc affirmed my fears. Seign Thelas, please reconsider. Rudolph is along the March river, somewhere between Danube and Zaya rivers, so he is South from us. If we go to Vienna. We should somehow march twice the distance there faster then the imperial army. Rudolph only needs to choose a nice open defensive position between us and Vienna and we have committed ourselves in decisive battle on a ground not of our choosing, where the Hungarians can run circles around us untill we are exhausted.

Mind you that he is southeast of us, which does make a big difference. This means he is unlikely to be able to intercept us during the march, especially as his forces are larger and we will get some sort of headstart. In addition to this, the distance is hardly double of what Rudolf has. We have roughly measured around 50 kilometers to march, while Rudolf has around 35-40 kilometers. Add to this the delay that it will take for Rudolf to get the reports and react, we will be able to avoid being intercepted. In fact we will most likely be in an position to intercept Rudolf himself, especially if we utilise a fast moving decoy contigent to confuse him of our target.

[Kagemusha]

Then just commit to battle. It's an urgent matter. You have to do something. You can't just wait.

Why do we have to push head on to Rudolph? We could have done that months a go? We havent been doing nothing?We have pushed enemys raiding parties out of our own domain and successfully moved the war into enemy territory. Now we are doing exactly what Kaiser wants us to do.Move head on towards his direction and let him decide where to meet us. Well it is your call, so i guess alea jacta est.


Mind you that he is southeast of us, which does make a big difference. This means he is unlikely to be able to intercept us during the march, especially as his forces are larger and we will get some sort of headstart. In addition to this, the distance is hardly double of what Rudolf has. We have roughly measured around 50 kilometers to march, while Rudolf has around 35-40 kilometers. Add to this the delay that it will take for Rudolf to get the reports and react, we will be able to avoid being intercepted. In fact we will most likely be in an position to intercept Rudolf himself, especially if we utilise a fast moving decoy contigent to confuse him of our target.

Heinrich arrived to us at 22nd day. Kaiser took Marcheg and started marching North on 15th or maybe 16th. He has been coming North for almost an week and im quite sure that first thing our vanguard column will meet once the march South begins will be Cumans or Szekelys and we will not get peace from them ever after. It could be that Kaiser is already waiting us at Zaya even if he had only advanced 10 kilometers a day. But all i can do now is to wait with great exitement when franc will reveal the next chapter.:yes:

[Franconicus]

Chapter 8

While the army got ready to decamp, Ottokar called the leaders to his tent. Here he told them the news about the enemy: “Now we know where Rudolf is and that the route to Vienna is open. I think we should use this opportunity and rush to Vienna”

Ekkehardt did not agree: “What the hell do you think we can find at Vienna? Didn’t you tell us that Rudi is in the east? If you want to defeat him, you must attack him, not Vienna. At least, that is what we came here fore, all the long way from Brandenburg. We did not come here to lay siege on Vienna, a dangerous adventure that may take all winter long and leaves initiative to Rudolf!”
Heinrich tried to mediate: “Well, we could leave some troops behind, to slow Rudolf’s approach while we take Vienna by surprise.”

Ekkehardt: “By surprise? Didn’t you tell me, that Habsburg prepared the defense of Vienna since spring? And now that he left the town, do you think that he left the gates open? And should you be as foolish as to leave a rearguard? Rudolf’s army consists mainly of knights and Kumans. How do you want to stop them? They can bypass you at any time.”

“Maybe there is a better, less risky alternative. We could go to Ludenburg and offer the battle there. There we would have a strong defense!”, Wladislaw spoke out.

“I have to admit that I really do not understand your ideas. Our army is strong, stronger than the Habsburgian. Its strength lays in the number and strength of our knights – these countries have never seen such a force before. A knight army, ideal for a mobile warfare, ideal to attack. Yet, since I have been here, you hide behind rivers or besiege some outposts. Now your idea is to lay siege on a big town. I wonder if you are able to lead an army like this. I wonder if you are just afraid of Rudolf. And I wonder if that is the reason why you lost the last campaign without even fighting!”

“Enough!” shouted Ottokar. “I see that it is time to end this game. Get to your men and tell them that we will start for the March in an hour. Paltram, you know the terrain, you will lead the vanguard. Watch for Kumans and do not let you lure outside of the formation. Heinrich von Schlesien will cover our rear. Hurry men, Rudolf is waiting!”
The men stood up and left the tent.
An hour later, the vanguard left the camp and soon the whole army was hiking.
Once again Ottokar looked with pride at the long columns. Again he felt somehow invincible. How could Rudolf resist such an agglomeration of strength and courage?
The marching went on. It was a warm summer and the roads were dry. So they could advance quickly, although many knights complained about the heat and took off their helmets.
Kumans shadowed the procession, but did not dare to come close.
As they came closer to the enemy they heard news from the refugees. Rudolf was still marching along the River March. He had just taken Stillfried and was now marching towards Dürnkrut.
Ottokar made his men hurry to reach this place before the enemy. And so Ottokar’s army camped at Dürnkrut on August 24th, just a couple of miles north of the emperor.
During the warm and clear night Ottokar’s spies found Rudolf camping on a plain field at the March. This would be the ideal place for a battle. The river March was slowly flowing in some meanders in a south southwestern direction. The river was not very deep, but there were some muddy places, that could become dangerous for any rider. The field was on the western side of the river. It was limited on the western side by the road from Sierndorf to Dürnkrut and Waiderndorf. On the other side of the road, there was a vineyard and some smaller copses. The field itself was plain. It only dropped down to a flank of a hill in the south, at the Waidendorf.
Ottokar called Wladislaw and Walter.
“Well, it seems like we will soon fight against Rudolf. I assume that we are stronger than he, but we have to prepare the battle carefully. I know the area and I guess the battlefield is ideal for cavalry charges. My intention is to leave the peasant in the camp to care for the baggage. Peasants would only hamper us. I will divide the army in three groups. First group forms the first line of attack. The second group is the second wave, it is important that the commander has the right timing. Third group is our reserve. Now I have to decide how to deploy the troops and to nominate the commanders.”

Please make proposals for the deployment!
Here are your troops and commanders:
BOHEMIAN: 2,200 knights and 4,500 peasants
Ottokar,
Walter (agent), unexperienced in battle
Wladislaw, Bishop, but also experienced on the battle field; gradualist
Paltram vor dem Freithof, knight from Vienna

ALLIES
Heinrich V (born in 1248) von Schlesien, Nephew of Wladislaw, loyal and combative
He has 800 Silesian knights
Przemysl (1257), Duke of Poznan, and Heinrich IV (1256) Duke of Breslau, both unexperienced, commanding 900 knights,
Wladislaus I (1225) Duke of Oppeln-Ratibor with 600 knights
Ekkehardt, pugnacious, with 2,000 knights from Brandenburg

[AggonyDuck]

Chapter 8. First group forms the first line of attack. The second group is the second wave, it is important that the commander has the right timing. Third group is our reserve. Now I have to decide how to deploy the troops and to nominate the commanders.”

Please make proposals for the deployment!
Here are your troops and commanders:
BOHEMIAN: 2,200 knights and 4,500 peasants
Ottokar,
Walter (agent), unexperienced in battle
Wladislaw, Bishop, but also experienced on the battle field; gradualist
Paltram vor dem Freithof, knight from Vienna

ALLIES
Heinrich V (born in 1248) von Schlesien, Nephew of Wladislaw, loyal and combative
He has 800 Silesian knights
Przemysl (1257), Duke of Poznan, and Heinrich IV (1256) Duke of Breslau, both unexperienced, commanding 900 knights,
Wladislaus I (1225) Duke of Oppeln-Ratibor with 600 knights
Ekkehardt, pugnacious, with 2,000 knights from Brandenburg


First Wave:

Ekkehardt, pugnacious, with 2,000 knights from Brandenburg
Przemysl (1257), Duke of Poznan, and Heinrich IV (1256) Duke of Breslau, both unexperienced, commanding 900 knights



Commander: Ekkehardt
Total Strength: 2,900 knights

Second Wave:

Wladislaus I (1225) Duke of Oppeln-Ratibor with 600 knights
Wladislaw, with 1,000 Bohemian knights

Commander: Wladislaw
Total Strength: 1,600 knights

Third Wave:

Ottokar, with 1,200 Bohemian knights
Heinrich, with 800 Silesian knights

Commander: Ottokar
2,000 Knights

[Kagemusha]

So we are facing the Kaiser just where these two met in reality. One big question is where are the Alsacian knights? Marching towards our rear i presume? I agree with Ducky about the order of battle. Maybe we could atleast set a ambush for the Cumans and Szekelys by leaving our camp relatively open, while setting an ambush for them as there is little doubt they could resist such a prize? While atleast at the start of the battle we should have some advantage in Knights. Our two first contingents could hold the line, while our reserve with the peasants could set up an ambush for the Hungarian light horse around our camp. The distance is so small that our reserve could head back quickly to battle when needed, as if the Hungarians would have to dismount in order to blunder our camp. 4500 peasants and 2000 knights attacking from ambush could make short work out of them and then we would definetely have an advantage over our enemies.

[King Kurt]

I have to take advantage of being the third!!! - I am completely with Kage on our course of action, especially keeping the third wave as a flexable force to guard against attacks on our rear. perhaps the peasants could make some rudimentary defences - stakes for example. I'm English - I like stakes!! A 1,000 longbowmen would sort these amoured dandies out!!

[King Kurt]

By the way - I am so impressed I beat Warman to the third post - he must be off looking for women!!! - see the Frontroom

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

By the way - I am so impressed I beat Warman to the third post - he must be off looking for women!!! - see the Frontroom



I was at the doctors you evil evil man!!!! J/K. Yes, I was at the docs for hip problem. I did have the chance to post 3rd last night, but wanted to do detailed post now. Next time KK.... I'll get you! :laugh4:

[Franconicus]

Chapter 10 – Before the battle

The whole night through the King of Bohemia was wandering around and wondering about the deployment for the next morning. At dawn, he called the military leaders into his tent and told them his decision:
“My friends and allies, you know today is the day of battle, the day of decision. We are stronger than our opponent and we will attack him. I have been thinking about our deployment and this is my plan. We will form three groups. The first group, which opens the battle, will be formed by you, Ekkehardt, with your knights. At your side will be the Duke of Poznan and the Duke of Breslau. In total you will command 2,900 knights.
The second wave will attack the enemy as soon as it is tied by Ekkehardt and his men. You should bring the decision. This group will be lead by Wladislaw, who will be supported by the Duke of Oppeln-Ratibor and his knights as well as 1,000 Bohemian knights. The second wave will be formed by 1,600 knights.
Our camp will be guarded by the peasants, which will immediately begin to build obstacles against a potential Kuman raid.
Behind the camp will be the reserve, 1,200 Bohemian knights and Heinrich with his Silesian knights, in total 2,000. We will build an ambush, in case the Kumans attack our camp. Questions?”
For a moment it was quiet, but then Heinrich asked: “Why do you put the reserve so far away from the battlefield. Do you want to fight Rudolf on the battlefield or lure him into our camp? Did I misconceive, you will stay with the reserve behind the camp? Does that mean that you do not want to lead the battle? Who then will be the commander of our army?”
Before Ottokar was able to answer Ekkehardt shouted out: “This is your quarrel with Rudolf, and we promised to support you. Well, now it seems as if you do not want us to fight with you – you just want us to fight for you. Anyway, we came a long way to fight against Rudolf and I swear we will do it. You may hide behind the camp and wait for us bringing you the Emperor’s head!”
The other dukes seemed also not to agree with Ottokar’s plan. Everybody asked or made proposals. Heinrich suggested making the first wave weaker, maybe 2,000 knights with the majority of light armed knights. They would be pushed back by the Imperial army, which could be knocked out by a stronger second wave with 2,500 heavy knights.
Wladoslaw made a different proposal. His advice was to increase the number of heavy armed knights in the two first groups and to increase the number of light knights in the reserve. So the two waves would be more powerful and the light knights of the reserve could fight well against the fast Kumans and could also be used chasing the enemy once he begins to route. “Maybe”; Wladislaw said”; we could set up a special squad to chase Rudolf and to – err – arrest him.”
The discussion ended when Paltram entered the tent.
“Milord, I just returned from the reconnaissance mission you sent me on. And I bring you news about the enemy. Rudolf’s army is already deploying between Waidendorf and the River March. I could see two parallel lines of knights, each line may consist of 1,500 knights. As far as I could see, most of the knights in the first line wear only light armors. The second line is some hundred meters behind the first line. I could not see if the Imperial camp, as the ground declines behind the second line. The Kumans are on the left side, right at the river.”
“Did you see Rudolf?”
“No, but I saw his banner in the middle of the first line.”
“So Rudolf has 3,000 knights and 4,000 Kumans?” asked Ottokar.
“As far as I could see, yes!”
“Maybe he left the rest behind his camp!” scoffed Ekkehardt.
Ottokar pretended that he had not heard this shout: “Alright, then it is time to beat him. Get ready for combat, lords!”
The Dukes went to their troops. Ottokar left alone in his tent. Now it was time to meet his fate. He heard the men mounting their horses. He knew that unity was surely not the strength of his army, but loyalty had to suffice to keep it together. He left the tent and walked in front of the men, which waited for his final order to leave the camp. In the light of the reportedly anathema he renounced to celebrate mess. Instead he now asked his allies to repeat the vow of fidelity. All military leaders took the oath and the common knights followed.
Now it was time to give the sign for departure. Ottokar hesitated one moment. Should he change his orders? Was there anything he forgot to do?

[Kagemusha]

3000 knights and 4000 cumans is awfully small amount for their entire army. The numbers for Rudolph army sound real enough, but in the historical battle the Hungarians had 18 000 men with them, so we are missing almost the entire Hungarian army, so we can prepare to be flanked or attacked on our rear. About the ambush my intention was never to deploy our personal force behind our camp, but between the battle and our camp. To be honest i dont like where we are heading one bit, but we cant turn back any more as our army would probably disintegrate at that point.

As we dont have a map of the battle area.What really is the distance between Rudolph´s army and our camp? Do we have any idea about any other enemy formations moving into our direction, on our flanks or our rear,anything? If Rudolph really is alone on this side of the river with mere 3000 knights. We should crush him first. Without the Kaiser the morale of his army would surely collapse. If he has foolishly divided his army so.Our two first contingents should tie him up and our third contingent should strike him at the flank and rear. Still i dont think thats the case. Kaiser has studied the ground, hid part of his army from us and at the right moment he will flank or strike us to the rear. Or maybe the rest of his army is on that downward slope behind him, which we cant see, waiting that we will run out of steam.I cant see now other options other then to drop our visors and fight and most likely loose.

I wont comment on the micromanagement much. Its obvius that by putting his more light knights in front Rudoph wants to absorb our first strike and then countercharge with his own heavy ones., but if our reserve will be light armed.We dont stand a chance against a flanking force with superior numbers. Maybe our only real chance is killing the Kaiser by striking him with all we have, like i explained earlier. In a prolonged battle our changes are most likely to falter.

[AggonyDuck]

We need our knights at the battlefield, not at the camp. Simply, if we kill Rudolf, we will win the battle. Rudolf has some forces hidden somewhere and we need a reserve close by to counter it. Most likely his plan is to feign weakness, give up ground initially, suck us in and then launch an ambush with a hidden force to crush us.

I would suggest this alternative plan:

The two first lines: We deploy our heavier knights almost exclusively at the right side, while the lighter knights are deployed on the left against the Cumans. Both lines will have a similar division. This means that we will surely be able to crush their right and roll their flank towards the river, pinning them against the river. If all goes well this will pin the Cumans towards the river, neutralising their threat, as well. I don't think we need to adjust the sizes of the two lines, as even our second line is larger than their second. We just need to watch the inevitable ambush.

The reserve will be divided in such a way that Heinrich will be in the center, with his 800 to counter-attack the enemy flank when the lighter knights start giving away ground on the left or if the left is doing well, support the right. Ottokar with his Bohemians will be posted on the right flank, with the task to follow the two lines closely and counter the coming enemy ambush when it emerges. In addition he needs to actively scout the terrain on the right, because I have a feeling we might stumble on to the enemy. This is a battle that we can win, provided that we play our cards well.

[Kagemusha]

I skimmed throught the thread and it would seem we are missing only about 1500 knights and 1000 cumans from the Imperial host, so the Hungarian host seems weaker then it was in reality. I think your plan is solid Ducky and i support it in the light of these figures.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Does this mean I am the third poster!? If so.... HAHAHAHAHA King Kurt! :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Uh hum, Anyhow.....


I support Ducky's plan in it's entirley, however, I believe we should at least keep a few hundred light knights at the camp to ambush any Kumans that foolishly decides to raid the camp, then afterwards let them take part in the battle?

:pimp::mad::smg::hmg:

[AggonyDuck]

We need all the knights we have at the decisive spot. The battle will not be decided at the camp and if the Cumans feel like fighting our peasants in the camp, then that means they are not participating in the decisive battle. A few hundred knights can make or break us here, so we can ill afford to disperse our forces to protect something of questionable value for the battle itself. So Warman, I urge you to reconsider.

[Kagemusha]

I agree with Ducky. Once the imperials will launch atleast those 1500 knights, 1000 horse archers and possible further Alsacian reinforcements against us at some point.We will be needing every man we can muster. Now that our only possibility is to go to offensive tactically. It is better to smash the Kaiser with iron fist, rather then slap him with open hand. I was wrong in my tactic of trying to lure the enemy to attack us as he simply will not do that.Not operationally nor tactically.The enemy is too smart to fall for that, so we have to defeat him by using our own strengths as he doesnt allow himself to be defeated by making a critical error.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

We need all the knights we have at the decisive spot. The battle will not be decided at the camp and if the Cumans feel like fighting our peasants in the camp, then that means they are not participating in the decisive battle. A few hundred knights can make or break us here, so we can ill afford to disperse our forces to protect something of questionable value for the battle itself. So Warman, I urge you to reconsider.

Napoleon once said something about leaving no regiment out of a fight when you need every man you got. But you see, I am just worried that if they attack our camp, they could potentially outflank us.


But I will go with your proposal Ducky anyhow. May we achieve victory with your plan and our mighty troops.

[AggonyDuck]

Luckily, attacking our camp and flanking us are two different things. If they attack our camp, it will most likely tie up parts of their forces that could have participated in the decisive engagement.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 10 – The fighting begins

On the spur of the moment Ottokar changed his mind: “Messengers, to me!”
Several riders popped up.
“You, bring my message to Ekkehardt, and you, bring it to Wladislaw. Tell them to strengthen their right side. They shall shift heavy armored knights to this side and leave the left side to the lights. Try to break through at the right flank and do not with the left one. If the Kumans break through – leave this to me. If you manage to break the enemy on the right side, push to the river! That is all, now hurry!”
The messengers shot off and soon the groups of Ekkehardt and Wladislaw changed their orders. Finally, Ottokar gave the sign for departure.
Long columns moved out of the camp. The reserve was the last group, leaving only the peasants behind.
“Heinrich, I changed my mind. We will not hide behind the camp, we will look after a position closer at the battle field instead. I want you to go with your men to the left. In case our left side is torn apart, I want you to come into action. If our men will hold the fort, wait until I call you! I will stay on the right side. I will protect our flank and be ready to support the right flank. If everything goes well, we will break through on the right, then press the imperials against the river and annihilate them. However, I fear that Richard has something in mind. He must have some hidden reserve and we have to be aware that he is going to play some tricks.”
It was about one hour ante meridiem when the forces of the Iron King took their positions. The first group trotted towards the enemy followed by the second group. The Wladislaw gave the order to stop, Ekkehardts men were moving forward.
From his lookout point Ottokar could overview the maneuvers of his forces, and he also saw how the enemy on the left side disgorged a swarm of riders. Even Ottokar could hear the shrill screams of the Kumans. At first it seemed as if this would not affect Ekkehardt’s group, but then there were signs of disorder on the left and Ottokar saw single riders falling to the ground. Then Ekkehardt raised his sword and his force began to gallop. 3,000 horses made a sound like an approaching thunder storm. Ekkehardt’s men were now covered by dust and Ottokar could hardly see what was going on. But it looked as if the Kumans went back behind their lines and yes, Richard’s first force began to move and the two forces galloped towards each other. The sound of the drumming hooves ended with a loud bang when the two forces collided and then Ottokar heard something else – a sound he had heard on every battle field and which haunted him in his dreams – the cries of wounded and dying horses.
Now that the combat began, the combatants were wrapped up in dust. Ottokar became nervous, because he could not see what was going on. At this moment we wished he was on top of his men. Anything was better than to wait behind the lines.
Minutes passed but it was as if time was standing still. Nothing seemed to happen, at least from Ottokar’s lookout he could not observe any movement. Wladislaw, what was he waiting for. The right moment for the second wave was now, now that Richard’s men were pinned in close combat. But Wladislaw did not move. Ottokar tried to catch his eyes by waving the banner, but Wladislaw did not look at his king. Then Ottokar saw Richard's second line set in motion. It stormed forward and disappeared in the cloud of dust. The sound of beating metal and the crying was getting louder. Still Wladislaw hesitated. Ottokar called for a messenger when he finally raised his arm and his group began to storm forward. Like the opponents before, Wladislaw and the second wave disappeared in the cloud of dust and noise.
“All Saints!” Ottokar shouted. Still he could not discover which side was gaining upper hand. But now he felt the sweat running down under his armor. It was hot, one of the hottest days of the year. Ottokar took off his helmet.
“Sire, you should not do that. Think of the mounted archers!” said a knight of his personal guard.
“Mind your own business” Ottokar flied into his face. “Hurry back and bring me my tent!”
Two hours were gone since the beginning of the battle. From his position Ottokar could see several men leaving the cloud. Some of them going, some riding and some carried.
Ottokar looked at a group of men which came slowly closer to his position. He saw that two men carried the young Heinrich IV, Duke of Breslau, on a stretcher. Ottokar beckoned them over: "Heinrich, what happened?"
Heinrich raised his head and Ottokar saw by the expression in his face, that the mind of the duke was still caught in combat.
"How is the battle going, Heinrich?"
"It is just like hell"; Heinrich answered croaky. "Do you have something to drink?"
A servant brought some wine.
"Now, Heinrich, tell me what is going on!"
"Err - we marched against Rudolf, when the Kumans attacked us. We were covered with arrows, I heard four of them banging against my corselet, but I came through. However, many of the light knights were wounded, especially on our right. We lost more than 100 men, I guess, before we even got in contact with the enemy. And we lost even more horses."
"Alright, but then you hit Richard's knights."
"Yes, and they hit us. The clash was awful, many brave men fell from their horses. And then close combat began immediately."
"And how was it going then?"
"Have I already told you that it was hell? The imperials fought good. They did not have strong armors, but they are more agile. We were hammering as good as possible, but it was pure chaos. Everyone tried to find an enemy which he fought with. Although I guess we were more numerous, this was no advantage. We were pressed together and I could hardly use my sword. All around were dead horses and knights on foot and more men were pressing from behind. This would have been the right moment for the second wave, but we waited in vain. Suddenly I saw Ekkehardt trying to call me. Together with Przemysl and me he wanted to break through on the right side. We called some of our best men and united we attacked the enemy again. It was then when Ekkehardt saw Richard's banner. The Habsburgian moved from the center to the right side, as if he had the same idea as we had. Ekkehardt shouted out loud and galloped to get to the Emperor and we shouted too and followed him. Yet, Rudolf's guard threw itself between and intercepted us. It was as if we stormed a brick wall. Enemies surrounded us, we had to beat in all directions and it was so hot and dusty. I was hit three times, but that did not stop me. Richard's guard pushed us to the side, but we kept on attacking and finally we made it, we broke through their lines. Immediately something was drumming at armor and when I turned around, I saw the horse archers. I did not care, I did my best to follow Ekkehardt who tried to get to Richard's back. Then Ekkehardt disappeared and I did not see him again. And honestly I had to do my best to save my skin. I had not realized that Rudolf's second line charged until something hit the flank of my horse. I flew from the saddle and must have had a black out. It must have been only a couple of moments, but when I woke up again, I lay on the ground beside the corpus of a horse. My head was aching and I had lost my sword. I was surrounded by enemies. I tried to get up, but my leg must be broken. So I lay there quite helpless. For heaven's sake Wladislaw arrived in time. Our second wave drove the enemy back and so I was rescued. That is all."
"And how is the battle going now?!
"I do not know."
"Which enemies did you fight?"
"Most of them were Hungarian knights, I assume. Brave men, indeed, but most of them only with light armors. And Rudolf's guard, of course."
"Who is commanding our army now? Is it Wladislaw, and what about Przemysl."
" I do not know. If you want to know, you have to go there to find out. But please, give me a horse, I have to go back to my men!"
Ottokar was wondering if Heinrich already had temperature.
"No, bring him to the camp."
The Bohemian King turned and looked to the battle. He saw men leaving the battle, some went just a couple of yard, then they laid down, others went westwards and disappeared in the woods. Ottokar could not recognize if those men were friends or enemies.
Ottokar felt that he had to do something. This was the right moment. Maybe Richard's line were ready to fall. He had already four and a half thousand knights in combat, enough. It seemed as if there was enough crush. A flanking maneuver would be the right thing, but how? Ottokar was wondering if it was really impossible to bypass the enemy in the west.
At this moment he saw Heinrich von Schlesien coming.
"Ottokar, we must do something. Let me charge with my men. I promise to bring you Rudolf's head!"
Ottokar was uncertain. He knew he had several options and hesitate, because he feared to make the wrong decision.

A) Do nothing - it is too early to use the reserves
B) Allow Heinrich to assault and to attack Richard
C) Leave Heinrich as a reserve and try to bypass the enemy in the west.
D) Wait, but send a patrol to recon the western area.
E) Take the whole reserve and charge. Then you can decide this battle at once.
F) something else!

[Kagemusha]

d) Hold steady but sending patrols to recon would be a wise move. The enemy reserve is somewhere and we have to find out where. The numbers are on our side in the current battle and we should not commit our reserve untill enemy does so.

[AggonyDuck]

F) Allow Heinrich to assault and to attack Rudolf, but also send out a patrol to recon the western area.

From the sound of it our left is holding up and the fighting is concentrated to the right. Our first line has taken quite a beating, but the second line seems to have the advantage. Killing Rudolf is paramount to winning this battle and this seems like an occasion to commit a part of our reserve to take him out. In addition to this, we need to scout out the western area, to find out what is there.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

F) Allow Heinrich to assault and to attack Richard, but also send out a patrol to recon the western area.


Agreed with Ducky on the recon part. Attack Ricard now, and crush him and his force.

[Kagemusha]

So now our right or left will face the onslaught of 2500 enemies while we have reserve of 1200 our own men. Too hasty decision i think.Please reconsider Warman, once we have crushed the enemy reserve´s attack we have all the men in the world to take out Kaiser. In real history the Bohemian king did just what you are now doing, but Rudolph survived even partly because of luck and then his reserves decided the day for him.

[AggonyDuck]

With second thought, Kage might be correct here.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

So now our right or left will face the onslaught of 2500 enemies while we have reserve of 1200 our own men. Too hasty decision i think.Please reconsider Warman, once we have crushed the enemy reserve´s attack we have all the men in the world to take out Kaiser. In real history the Bohemian king did just what you are now doing, but Rudolph survived even partly because of luck and then his reserves decided the day for him.

You should be happy I'm not going to go with E like I was very tempted to. We can't keep our reserves out forever. You can yell at me and call me stupid if my move doesn't go though and if it does, you owe me a cheesecake.

[Kagemusha]

You should be happy I'm not going to go with E like I was very tempted to. We can't keep our reserves out forever. You can yell at me and call me stupid if my move doesn't go though and if it does, you owe me a cheesecake.

Im not calling you a stupid at all.What i am asking is to reconsider. Dont get carried away by the momentum, but keep a cool head. Reserves are for desicive moments and such has not yet to come.Once we commit our reserves we can hardly recall them back anymore. We need to force the Kaiser to commit his first as currently the numbers are on our side.

[Prince Cobra]

I think the Wladislaw's troops are still fresh and for now we should not bother with reinforcements. I agree that D is the best option for now. The area is already overcrowded with our knights and additional reinforcement won't have an effect.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 11: In the Heat of the Battle

Ottokar looked at the battle in front of him. The dust over the battle ground settled and he could see more details. More and more men on both sides stood some yards aside, leaned on their banners or swords. Others left the fighting and slowly walked back to the camp. Ottokar could see Wladislaw’s banner in the middle of the crowd. Most of the knights had lost their horses. Behind the fighting men there were mounted archers and again and again Kuman riders penetrated the formations and charged the Ottokar’s exhausted men. Ottokar also saw, that a b large group of Kumans gathered at the river to charge his left flank.
Heinrich was right – it was time to do something and some 800 fresh knights could bring the decision. So he turned to Heinrich and said: “Right, son, now it is up to you! Make the decisive charge and bring me Rudolf. Heinrich, our fate is in your hands.”
The Silesian duke put spurs to his horse and galloped to his men. Minutes later the charge of the Silesian knights began.
The Bohemian King gave orders to send a patrol to the west. Then he could not stand his impatience. He ordered his men to get ready for combat but to wait for his orders, and then he set on his horse and rode closer to the battle.
In the meanwhile, Kumans had overrun his left side. They swarmed out to intercept Heinrich. The Silesian knights drove their horses and soon Heinrich and his men arrived on the battle field. The Imperial knights could not resist their new enemies. Heinrich went straight for the banner of Rudolf, who was surrounded by his guard. Yet, the young Heinrich seemed to be irresistible and invulnerable. With a huge dart he came right in the middle of the guard, saw Richard and rammed his lance into the horse of the Emperor. The 60 year old Habsburgian fell to the ground. Heinrich pulled his sword to finish this fight. However, a young Swiss knight, Heinrich Walter von Ramschwag, threw himself between his emperor and the offender. The rest of the guard attacked Heinrich, who had to fight for his life, and when the rest of his knights closed ranks, Rudolf had already left the battle. Heinrich and his men shook the rest of the Imperial guard off and broke through the line of the enemy. They also pushed through the Kuman archers. Heinrich wanted to chase Richard, but he saw himself confronted with 1,500 Imperial knights moving to the battle.
Heinrich did not hesitate one moment. He rushed against the new enemy and his knights followed.
Ottokar was still watching, he saw Richard’s fall and the arrival of fresh Imperial troops. It was time for him to join in. He turned his horse over to get back to his men. Then he saw men appearing from a copse in the rear of his reserve, 50, 60 knights, roaring and yelling. They jumped at the retreating Bohemians and massacred them.

Ottokar reached his men, which were only waiting for him to enter the battle.

A) Lead your men south to help Heinrich against the Imperial reserve.
B) Turn north to defeat the Imperials there and then turn south.
C) Divide your troops. Make 100 of your men turn northwest, so that they can attack the northern enemy from the rear and lead the rest south to join Heinrich.

[Kagemusha]

C) Destroy the diversion force in our rear with 100 knights and defeat the the Imperial reserve with the rest. We cant leave that diversion force be, or the morale of our army might collapse.1100 best of our Bohemian knights together with Heinrichs men will defeat the Imperial reserve. The Kaiser has retired from battle, which will diminish their morale, specially when Iron King himself will be charging the enemy in front of his elite knights.What i have counted for they have now every man from their force on the field. Lets decide this battle here and now.

[AggonyDuck]

C) As well, we need to divide our troops at this point. According to my counting, Rudolf brought around 4,700 knights to the battle, meaning that with three lines of 1,500 knights, the ambush force could have up to 200 Knights. Thus I'd send 200 knights to counter that threat.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

C.

Great, we all agree! 200 Knights sound good.

[King Kurt]

A bit late, but I would go with C as well. looks like we don't have to long to go now - we are in danger of finishing an IH - I had better have a lie down!!!

[Franconicus]

A bit late, but I would go with C as well. looks like we don't have to long to go now - we are in danger of finishing an IH - I had better have a lie down!!!

The end is near! :skull:
:laugh4:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Kagemusha]

Come on Franc! We are dying here!(Atleast Bohemians are).:knight:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

RUHM und EHRE!!!!!!!!

[Ignoramus]

Great IH, Franconius! I'm disappointed I didn't stumble onto this earlier.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 12

Ottokar called Milota, a young knight from Dědice: “Select 200 men and attack those enemies behind our lines. Try to get into their back and hurry.”

While Milota separated his men, Ottokar looked at the battle in front of him. Heinrich fought a unit that was about twice as big as his Silesian force. Heinrich’s men fought well and the leader himself led the attack against the center of the enemy. However, both flanks were bypassed and pushed back. Then a group of several hundred Kumans appeared in Heinrich’s back, so that the Silesians were completely encircled. Ottokar could not recognize what was going on in this crowd, he could not see Heinrich’s banner any longer.
He turned around and told his men to hurry. Milota was finally ready and the Iron King sent him away. Milota led his men northward to get behind Richard’s men, which were still slaughtering the exhausted retreaters. Then the Bohemian King raised his sword as a signal for the remaining Bohemian knights to join the final attack.
Finally trotting against the enemy, Ottokar saw that the knights of the first two waves had almost completely interrupted the fighting and watched the combat of the Silesian knights. Ottokar sent a prayer that those could stand until he was there. Then he saw some knights coming out of the crowd, more followed and when then suddenly Ottokar saw Heinrich’s banner. Heinrich was alive and succeeded to lead his men through the circle of enemies, or at least around 500 of them. The Silesians hurried north to get back behind the own lines, pressed hard by Richard’s knights and Ladislaus’ Kumans. Ottokar reached the rest of Ekkehardt’s and Wladislaw’s troops. He saw some men pointing backwards, crying something which he could not understand. But he saw that Wladislaw’s men were caught by horror and heedlessly running from the battlefield.
They were chased by Richard’s men, which found new courage and strength and which were crying loud. Suddenly Ottokar understood what they were shouting:
“The Bohemian knights are running away! The Bohemian King flees!”
He turns around, but all he sees is Milota with his men, riding northwards. For the others it had to look as if he, the king, was leaving with his guard.
For a moment Ottokar wondered if he should try to help Wladislaw’s men and make them turn around and fight again. Then he saw Heinrich and his men getting closer, pressed hard by superior Imperial forces. He had no choice; he gave the sign to attack. He still had 1,000 fresh Bohemian knights, enough to decide any battle.

Soon Ottokar’s men were passed by the Silesian knights. They had suffered more casualties and were still on the run. Even the appearance of their allies could not make them stop, especially as the pursuant Imperials also shouted that Ottokar’s army is on the flight.
Then Ottokar’s reserve hit the Imperial reserve, 1,000 heavy armored knights from Franconia and Swabia. It was a terrible sound when almost 2,000 crashed into each others. The full impact made many horses and their riders fall. Soon the battle turned into a series of duels between Bohemian knights and their enemies from Franconia and Swabia. All the while the Imperials kept on shouting: “Ottokar’s army is on the run” and in fact the Bohemians worried about what was going on in their back. Ottokar himself had to beat toward all sides to get enough space. He had no time to look what was going on around him. Yet he realized that his men were loosing ground and he also noticed that some of his men turned around to run away. He sent a knight from his guard back to bring him news from the rest of the battle field. When he returned he shouted through the noise of the battle: “Sire, Wladislaw and his men are running away, pressed by the Imperials. The Silesians are gone. Haven’t seen Milota, either. But there are Kumans gathering in our back, at least 1,000.”
The Iron King turned around and saw the approach of the Kumans. Hastily he ordered his guard to follow him and turned against this new enemy. More men followed and actually Ottoakr managed to break through the rows of the Kumans. However, when the other Bohemian knights saw the Kumans and the maneuver of their king, they also turned around and tried to find rescue in flight.
Ottokar’s whole army was now in dissolution. Nothing Ottokar could do could make them stop. The Bohemian king was carried away by the fleeing troops.
The Imperials pressed hard, especially the Kumans. With their light armors they were faster than the Bohemians and Ottokar saw many of his men fall from the saddle. The Kumans drive them to the river. Ottokar lashed his horse, but he heard the sound of converging hooves. He turned around to counter an attack, his horse made a false step. Ottokar fell on the ground and immediately twenty Kumans were over him.
And so the story ends. And the moral, my dear reader, is, that false ambitions will end in a inglorious way.

[Kagemusha]

As bitter is the defeat, Still i would like to say a word on behalf of the fallen Iron King. Morale is not that false ambitions will end in a inglorious way, but that the weight of one´s morale is at the tip of one´s sword.This time it was the kaiser´s sword that was stronger, not that his ambition was any more justified then the ambition of the fallen Iron King.

Thank you very much Franc for this wonderful journey!:bow: Is there any chance there will be some sort of debriefing or write up from your part?

[Franconicus]

Why not. But first I want toknow your opinion.
How did you like this new type of interactive?
Did you like the speed?
Do you think the topic was well chosen?
Do you think the backround was historically correct?
Do you think the moderation was fair and the way the story went could have happened in real history?

[Kagemusha]

Why not. But first I want toknow your opinion.
How did you like this new type of interactive?
Did you like the speed?
Do you think the topic was well chosen?
Do you think the backround was historically correct?
Do you think the moderation was fair and the way the story went could have happened in real history?

I think i loved every other aspect of it other then the rule of third decides. Maybe with 24-48 hour voting period we could have created more discussion and with that possibly better informed decisions.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

What a terrible defeat for us! :embarassed:


How did you like this new type of interactive?

Great! Even though I still got a soft spot for MP style IH's, I love playing in a fast paced IH like this.


Do you think the topic was well chosen?


Hmmm, I preferred more modern era, but this era was good though.

Do you think the background was historically correct?

Not a expert here on that particularly case, I guess it is.


Do you think the moderation was fair and the way the story went could have happened in real history?

Probably. You can never say for certain how something could have went differently in hindsight, but I guess it could have.

:balloon2::book::book:

[Prince Cobra]

Epilogue


A murder of crows hid the sun and wind brought the reek of rotting flesh. The moaning of the injured had replaced the roar of the battle and the once pride knights lied in the dust. People with knives walked around the bodies delivering a merciful blow to those who had no chance of survival and were robbing those who could no longer care. On the near hill a small group of knights were watching the sight. Few hours ago, they would have looked truly magnificently: large plumes on their helmets and glamorous armour that demonstrated their superiority. The man in the centre looked down at his injured hand and calmed his new horse. As he looked up, he noticed a small group of soldiers wearing a litter. He rode forward and his old body started aching. Once again his steeled will was stronger and he continued to ride proudly towards his destination. As the warriors saw him approaching, they put the litter on the ground and knelt. He was acclaimed as the victorious and just Emperor of the Romans and told that he is presented with a gift from King Ladislaus of Hungary. The Emperor looked down at the lifeless body of his adversary. The man who was formerly known as the Iron King of Bohemia had died in a terrible but short agony caused by the blades of the eastern mercenaries. His crossed hands were in scratches and some of his fingers were missing. His tunic was all red around his neck. The face had preserved his ruthlessness and majestic arrogance that carved his way to glory and that also led to his ultimate downfall. The hatred of his adversary was also destined to outlive him as it also left its mark on the lifeless piece of flesh that covered the skull. Ironically, the body of his fallen enemy would serve the victor in his rise to power.

“I thank your master,” Rudolf said and noticed how the eyes of the eastern warriors shined, ”My people will treat this gift with the proper respect ” He then turned to his newly promoted count Heinrich Walter von Ramschwag and instructed him to prepare the body. He would expose the traitor's corpse for joy of the crowds in Vienna. And the Habsburg Dynasty will continue to shine…


Wonderful IH, though I truly did not expect such an end. I will try to answer your questions the following days. Keep up with your enthusiasm. You do a great work.


This is slightly loosely based on history epilogue of the IH. Just a flow of thought.

[Prince Cobra]

How did you like this new type of interactive?
Did you like the speed?
Do you think the topic was well chosen?
Do you think the backround was historically correct?
Do you think the moderation was fair and the way the story went could have happened in real history?

Sorry for double posting. It's time to fulfil my part of the deal.

1) This type of IH is definately a good thing, especially if you are getting increasily preoccupied with real life issues and other projects. I would certainly continue to participate in such a less-time consuming gaming format (though I could be not very regular).

2) Hmm, it was slightly short for my taste. The problem is not really the chapters followed quickly one after another, the problem was that the IH ended too quickly. On the other hand, it is always better to have a completed IH, so the IH should fit the taste of the host. Not a big setback, though.

3) Middle Ages are always an interesting topic. I am not an expert on Western European chivalry but I think it was historically accurate. I will be happy if the next IH is again in the same epoch (more or less).

4) I am happy with your moderation.

-----

Btw, Franc, where do you think we did the fatal mistake? Was it in the last turn or before that?

[Franconicus]

First, thank you for the flowers. I really enjoyed the game. :bow:
Prince Cobra, you are a much better writer than me, you should host the next IH!!
But you are historically incorrect: Rudolf brought the dead body to Vienna, where he was displayed 30 weeks long!:skull:

About wrong or right - how do you expect me to know? I just can give you my point of view.:embarassed:

First the historical facts. Ottokar had prepared the rebellion against Rudolf. He had made alliances with Polish dukes and appeased the church. He had a very strong army and thought he was ready to fight Rudolf, even though he knew that the Hungarians would help Habsburg. If Ottokar won this fight, he would have received the Austrian countries and maybe even become emperor. However, losing the campaign would mean losing his reign, maybe his life.
Ottokar had a very army of knights - peasants did not mean a lot. So his army was very mobile, but he had to deal with the drawbacks - knights had their own will and believes and were not very disciplined.
Ottokar had an advantage in numbers and he had the initiative, as he started the war and the campaign was near his own provinces.
Historically, Ottokar acted very slow and historians wonder why he did not attack Vienna when it was weakly defended. Instead he moved slowly and played around besieging some minor fortresses.
In real life, Rudolf gathered his knights from Austria and the rest of Germany at Vienna, while Ladislaus came from Hungary. Rudolf had the advantage of better recon with the Kumans. When he was ready and saw Ottokar hesitating, he made a very fast move to the March.
So far so good. You did exactly what Ottokar did. You waited. Of course you had a good reason to wait for Brandenburg, but it was probably wrong to stay at Prague, far away from Austria. News took far too long and you did not have a chance to intercept your enemies. When you finally decided to move, you tried to hide behind a river, still leaving initiative to Rudi. Fighting knights at rivers is the best choice if you have infantry. Here you have a surplus at knights. Furthermore, waiting was not good for moral and discipline. Your army was not a 20th century force, ready to wait in trenches for months. Knights want to fight!
Richard took the chance for a fast move - amazingly the story was still synchronal with history. He moved to the March field, united with Hungary and waited for you. And you came. Now Richard hold all the cards. He had chosen the battle field, he had prepared and he had had a good time to regenerate.
In history, Richard formed three groups with even numbers. First row, second row and reserve. Reserve was hidden behind a hill. Although all groups had the same number of knights, Rudolf left his best men in reserve.
Additionally, the Kumans covered his left flank. As a special trick, Rudolf left 60 knights hidden at your left flank.
I am not an expert in medieval warfare, but what I learned is, that heavy armed knights are a terrible weapon against infantry and unarmed riders. However, fighting against each other it could take long to really kill one. And they became quickly exhausted, especially if it was hot. In reality, most of the knights of the two first groups which died died from circulatory collapse.
Taking this in account, you should have left a stronger reserve. Another issue is, that you left Ottokar at the reserve. This had two drawbacks: First, he could not see what was going on and had little impact on the battle. This would have been even worse leaving him behind the camp. Second, it was disastrous for moral. After all this hesitation and avoiding the direct confrontation you still tried to save your skin. How could you expect those men fight for you? Wasn't it a dispute you against Rudolf?
So the battle went similar as it did in real life. The first two groups came in close combat and where exhausted soon, while little casualties were suffered. First knights left the battle field, on both sides.
You never really wondered if you could bypass the battle ground on the left or right.
You finally decided to sent Heinrich, still trying to keep yourself from the battle. Heinrich almost made it, Rudolf already fell from the horse, but he escaped - just like in history. Then Rudolf's reserve appeared. Now it showed that dividing your reserve was a mistake. Heinrich could not stand, he was lucky to flee. This brought your whole army in disorder. And now there were these 60 knights in your back. At this moment you had little chance to win. In real history, Ottokar sent some knights after those enemies at his back - and his army thought the reserve was running away.
In our case it was even more critical. Your knights were already wondering why you did not fight and they expected you to run like a coward. Then Heinrich almost won, but he was repelled and run away. The remaining knights on the battle ground were already wondering if this wasn't the right moment to say goodbye. When they saw parts of your reserve turning north, this was it. And Rudolf played his last card. His men began to shout that the Bohemians were running away.
At this moment, although both sides had suffered the almost the same casualties, the battle was lost, as your knights believed that it was. And now it was the time for the Kumans!

That's it. After all you should be glad. You played the game almost the same way the Iron King did. He is dead - you are alive and maybe ready to join soon another IH.:laugh4:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Was I at fault anywhere? :embarassed:

[Prince Cobra]

First, thank you for the flowers. I really enjoyed the game. :bow:
Prince Cobra, you are a much better writer than me, you should host the next IH!!
But you are historically incorrect: Rudolf brought the dead body to Vienna, where he was displayed 30 weeks long!:skull:



GAH! I read his tomb was in Prague and thought the Emperor was generous enough to send the body back. I did not really had the time to do a research and I was caught. :embarassed: Once I get time, I may re-edit it.

My own IH... I am too busy for that, unfortunately. For now, I am content to parasite on other people's work. :sneaky:

Edit: Now the text has been corrected in a more historically accurate way.

[King Kurt]

Great IH Franc - and for the first time in a long time - we finished it!! Like Kage, my only concern is the third choice wins - maybe we could use a number of choices - say 6 - then dice for the "winner" next time.

As for our choices - I had always thought we should have been more aggressive - but I am like that in every IH!!!

Hopefully we can have another one of these soon - I feel inspired to try my Midway IH in this style - I now I have threatened it for ages, but one day I may get the time!!

[Franconicus]

For those who love statistics:

There were 15 players with votes and 6 with decisive ones:

KK 1 decisive out of 6 votes
AKWC 7 out of 8
Kage 0 out of 9
Agonny 1 out of 8
Sign T. 1 out of 1
Prince C.1 out of 4
Csargo 1 out of 1


Was I at fault anywhere? Why do you think?

[Kagemusha]

For those who love statistics:

There were 15 players with votes and 6 with decisive ones:

KK 1 decisive out of 6 votes
AKWC 7 out of 8
Kage 0 out of 9
Agonny 1 out of 8
Sign T. 1 out of 1
Prince C.1 out of 4
Csargo 1 out of 1

Why do you think?

Thanks for the statistics Franc. As can be seen through the game i tried to convince others to support my point of view, not once force it to them. I am quite indifferent about the role of tactics and strategy in medieval warfare, for example i could give quite a number of battles over river crossings and examples of usefulness of infantry in certain roles. Still i understand that each game will reflect the views of the host on particular subject and should be played according to that.Once more i want to express that i enjoyed this game immensely.:bow:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

For those who love statistics:

There were 15 players with votes and 6 with decisive ones:

KK 1 decisive out of 6 votes
AKWC 7 out of 8
Kage 0 out of 9
Agonny 1 out of 8
Sign T. 1 out of 1
Prince C.1 out of 4
Csargo 1 out of 1

Why do you think?



Nice list. :balloon2: