Too Slow ?

[LeftEyeNine]

Okay, I couldn't resist the tempting lure of my Nippon-o-philia and got my hands on ŞOOGÜN TUU TOOTIL VOOR.

After my first 3 attempts at Shimazu clan dominion having been way prematurely foiled by Shoni clan, in my 4th go, I preferred amassing an army without caring for the upkeep cost, forged a marriage-supported alliance with the Sagara, and then captured Osumi province from the Ito.

Based on previous experiences I waited for a Shoni invasion into Hyuga (had happened thrice), hence cutting off the breath of Ito clan but, I guess, flourishing on my trustworthy alliance that was ornamented with indefinitely-agreed military access as well, I saw Sagara, surprisingly, -'cause they were all peaceful before- erasing traces of the Ito clan, getting me locked away from any progress.

After replenishing the whole army, while being harrassed by Shoni warships at my bay, hence preventing me from naval trade, I set up an army of around 2000~ men and, woefully stabbed Sagara in the back. I can't say I was provocated by their revoking of military access rights though. Still their land was the only way to go. So I crushed a 1200-men defense at their capital, Higo, and captured it.

It's 1553 now and I got only 3 provinces: Satsuma, Osumi and recently-captured, wealthy and advanced Higo with two allied hostiles (Sagara + Shoni) on the island of Kyushu.

Do you think I'm too late for short-campaign dominance ? Especially considering that I can't support another army (the 2000 men is almost intact though) and have an income of around 800 koku (?), huh ?

[Naughtius Maximus]

Definitely too slow. You should be in a good position to get a leg up on the trade nodes; get as much money together as you can and start banging heads.

[LeftEyeNine]

Well I go down that route, I can't build an army even strong enough to stand up against Ito. My 1st game was demolished because of going Shogun 2 TW Civilization.

Now I got an army but economy is just on its toes already.

[Gregoshi]

I'm in a similar boat LEN. I'm trying to build up my economy to support a few armies, which leaves almost nothing to grow the army very fast - let alone the navy...and I'm Mori, I'm supposed to rule the sea. I'm finally getting some funds for the army, but not enough and the buildings are getting more expensive. I've got to try to grab a few more (rich) provinces. I've given up on winning my short campaign, but I plug along and try to learn as much this campaign and hold out as long as I can. My dreams of being Shogun are crushed by the reality of my situation. :shame:

[Kagemusha]

Well currently in my Hojo campaign.I tried my best to protect my back while I made short work off Ogigayatsu Uesugi, by forging alliance with Takeda. Shortly after Satake decided to declare war on me and just when i was about to destroy them.Uesugi who had grown pretty powerful by taking the Southern part of Mutsu and Dewa declared war on me, while Takeda backstabbed me by joining Uesugi, while they own Northern Shinano, Etchu. Noto, Hida and Kai. So now my alliance of my Clan, Imagawa,Satomi and Satake whom i had to make vassal are fighting alliance of Uesugi, Takeda,Kiso and Yamanouchi Uesugi. So to put it short Kanto is on fire right now and i cant gather enough forces against either Uesugi or Takeda to kick one of them out from the war.Im loving this game!:2thumbsup:

[LeftEyeNine]

That's WW Japan TW, Kage, not Shogun 2.

[The Black Ship]

You need to plunder some provinces...don't take control, just plunder. Try to spread the "love" if you want the big pay days as plundering the same provinces repeatedly leads to diminshing returns.

I tried keeping everything I could during my first campaign and found I couldn't afford it. Now, I keep only what my budget can take, and return the rest or puppet when allowed.

[LeftEyeNine]

But doesn't that backfire at you as a bad reputation which I GUESS would make one heck of a headache in future turns ?

[muha]

I had a good start as the Oda, took about 5 or so provinces in my short campaign, now its 1553, Im fighting a 3 front war vs Hojo, Takeda, and Hatorri, all three are bigger then I by now, and Im LOVING IT!

It seems every one is having trouble playing this game. Not just me... that makes me feel better about myself since I'm writing an AAR and am slowly but surely losing my campaign..

[Zarky]

What I've tried to do is set a goal when starting the game, such as Shikoku with Chosokabe, Kikkawa+starting enemy as Mori and Kyushu as Shimazu, then I essentially rush to that goal with heroic ashigaru victories. After my goal has been reached, I slow down and spend time setting up my economy and properly training samurais. Once you have a sturdy foundation for your economy, it's much easier to expand in any direction you choose.

[Diamondeye]

Well currently in my Hojo campaign.I tried my best to protect my back while I made short work off Ogigayatsu Uesugi, by forging alliance with Takeda. Shortly after Satake decided to declare war on me and just when i was about to destroy them.Uesugi who had grown pretty powerful by taking the Southern part of Mutsu and Dewa declared war on me, while Takeda backstabbed me by joining Uesugi, while they own Northern Shinano, Etchu. Noto, Hida and Kai. So now my alliance of my Clan, Imagawa,Satomi and Satake whom i had to make vassal are fighting alliance of Uesugi, Takeda,Kiso and Yamanouchi Uesugi. So to put it short Kanto is on fire right now and i cant gather enough forces against either Uesugi or Takeda to kick one of them out from the war.Im loving this game!:2thumbsup:

:2thumbsup:


What I've tried to do is set a goal when starting the game, such as Shikoku with Chosokabe, Kikkawa+starting enemy as Mori and Kyushu as Shimazu, then I essentially rush to that goal with heroic ashigaru victories. After my goal has been reached, I slow down and spend time setting up my economy and properly training samurais. Once you have a sturdy foundation for your economy, it's much easier to expand in any direction you choose.

I think this is the right way to go; an early brawl and then consolidation.

[al Roumi]

What I've tried to do is set a goal when starting the game, such as Shikoku with Chosokabe, Kikkawa+starting enemy as Mori and Kyushu as Shimazu, then I essentially rush to that goal with heroic ashigaru victories. After my goal has been reached, I slow down and spend time setting up my economy and properly training samurais. Once you have a sturdy foundation for your economy, it's much easier to expand in any direction you choose.


I think this is the right way to go; an early brawl and then consolidation.

It cetainly lends itself to Shimazu, Chosokabe or arguably Mori - clans where you can make the most of geography to create a contained fiefdom. Probably harder to implement the turtle phase when in the mess of Eastern Honshu.

I am kicking myself for my eagerness to continue the fight after capturing Kyushu as Shimazu. I played about 10 turns raking in the cash (controlling all 4 western nodes) but it all evaporated (as my trade partners disapeared/reneged on me) once I waded into the mire of conflict on Honshu.

Balancing development of the Chi and Bushido tech trees is also critical. The research specialisation reward mechanic really leads you down a bit of a rabbit-hole -either too militaristic or too civic. This means I've had difficulty ensuring I'm teched up and developed sufficiently to produce enough food and cash from within provinces. I've come to regard trade revenue as inherently fragile and susceptible to the consequences of actually going for the Shogunate -a (rare) peacetime bonus rather than a dependable source of income. There really is a lot to balance in this game!

And I'm only on normal :sweatdrop:

[LeftEyeNine]

Well that was what I did. An early fight with a huge army but since almost nothing was done to increase the income, recruiting new troops could only have halted.

[Kagemusha]

I have been thinking all day long at work how to defeat the alliance im fighting and lets see now can i do that or how bad things will turn for the Hojo.

[Lemur]

I'm playing a Date campaign on normal, and I tried to go the vassal route. As in, "Allies will stab me in the back as soon as the Shogun gets irate at me, so I'm only gonna have vassals."

This worked for about ten seasons after the realm divide, and then one-by-one my vassals rebelled. Bloody heck. Insufficient boot-on-neckism or something. I think the first mod I would like to see would be one that dials down the insane diplo penalties after the Realm Divide, or at least tones them down on my VASSALS. We're going to rule Nippon together, after all, the Date clan and its loyal vassals. Together! Arm-in-arm! Marching into the future!

[LeftEyeNine]

If a game makes you think at work or in bed, then it's darn good.

At last.

So back to my sluggishness. >:|

[xploring]

This worked for about ten seasons after the realm divide, and then one-by-one my vassals rebelled. Bloody heck. Insufficient boot-on-neckism or something. I think the first mod I would like to see would be one that dials down the insane diplo penalties after the Realm Divide, or at least tones them down on my VASSALS.

Not exactly sure how it works, but there's a mod for realm divide already to make it more playable.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=436082

There are mods for morale and unit speed reduction, sounds like they will make battles more like it used to be.

[LeftEyeNine]

Um, what is this "realm divide" thing, if you wouldn't mind ? Something that's hardcoded ?

[Monk]

Um, what is this "realm divide" thing, if you wouldn't mind ? Something that's hardcoded ?

If i'm not mistaken, Realm Divide happens when your reputation bar gets full. Once that happens the Shogun declares you a threat to the safety of Japan and asks all other clans to wage war on you - and they will. The only people who won't immedietly declare war on you are your allies/vassals.

[LeftEyeNine]

If i'm not mistaken, Realm Divide happens when your reputation bar gets full. Once that happens the Shogun declares you a threat to the safety of Japan and asks all other clans to wage war on you - and they will. The only people who won't immedietly declare war on you are your allies/vassals.

"Immediately" not. That's a stress more than a relief. >:|

[Ituralde]

The way I understand it, Realm Divide manifests itself in a huge diplomacy modifier. It starts out slow, so your vassals and allies won't declare on you immediatelly. The longer Realm Divide goes on the larger the diplomacy modifier gets until you get to the point where everyone's at war with you.

The mentioned mod changes this, so that you get a larger initial diplomacy hit, but after that the effect actually wears off instead of getting worse. So you don't end up loosing all your allies and vassals one after another.

[Nelson]

I began a long Shimazu campaign on normal difficulty as it was rated as easy. Having never played the game before (obviously) I didn’t want additional challenges without knowing how things work.

I can’t really say that it’s been all that easy. It’s about 1555 now and I have subdued all of Kyushu and 3 trade nodes. I have also put down 2 peasant rebellions. Taxes are normal. I am presently at war with no one, trading with 7 clans and am building post roads everywhere. The plan is to allow fast movement so that a smaller garrison will be needed to protect the island from naval invasion. The navy is getting some attention also because I rely heavily on trade.

One province, Bungo IIRC, is 100% Christian and these guys have already revolted once. In fact they killed my daimyo as he defended his castle. I built a Buddhist temple there but it can’t overcome the effects of the nanban port that is on the coast. To help control these people I decided to build a level 3 castle that uses 3 food. I overlooked the fact that Bungo produces only 2 food and now I must alter my arts pursuits to get to terraced farming sooner than I intended. I considered burning the nanban port but it is valuable and worth trying to accommodate. I may still end up destroying it if the rebellions continue. I have no plans to convert the daimyo to Christianity.

I have no allies but have married off a daughter to the Date who are both well to do and powerful. I have no idea how long peace will reign but while it does I will continue to invest in my infrastructure. I have a couple of ninjas, a couple of monks and a metsuke keeping an eye on things.

Tactically I have found the AI to be aggressive. It almost always attacks regardless of who the aggressor is on the strategic map.

A long campaign has many turns. The need to move expand rapidly and continuously just isn’t there. It looks like moving cautiously with an occasional bold move is the way to go. Of course, I haven’t finished yet either…

[Monk]

There are mods for morale and unit speed reduction, sounds like they will make battles more like it used to be.

Tested out both of them. The unit speed modifiers are nice if you choose the right ones. Some make them too slow, but there's a number of options to choose from so I give it a thumbs up.

Morale mod goes too far in the extreme imo. 50% increase to morale across the board means Ashigaru don't route until they've taken 90% casualties or more. Not what I expect from peasants...

[LeftEyeNine]

I began a long Shimazu campaign on normal difficulty as it was rated as easy. Having never played the game before (obviously) I didn’t want additional challenges without knowing how things work.

I can’t really say that it’s been all that easy. It’s about 1555 now and I have subdued all of Kyushu and 3 trade nodes.



*commits seppuku*

[Lemur]

Not exactly sure how it works, but there's a mod for realm divide already to make it more playable.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=436082
Grabbing that immediately. I love this game, but the everybody-against-you thing with the realm divide makes me want to give up on my campaign. There goes trade, since I'm not allowed to trade with other nations, and there go my vassals. IRRITATING! I may re-start a campaign, since being able to have long-term allies and vassals would make a massive difference.

[al Roumi]

Grabbing that immediately. I love this game, but the everybody-against-you thing with the realm divide makes me want to give up on my campaign. There goes trade, since I'm not allowed to trade with other nations, and there go my vassals. IRRITATING! I may re-start a campaign, since being able to have long-term allies and vassals would make a massive difference.

I feel the same. My very friendly ally the chosokabe declared war on me only about 4 turns after everyone else, causing my revenue to go through the floor. Not only had I not really developed my markets and castles properly yet but with the whole world and his wife on my case, what resources I have will be going on troops. I'm a little irked by my readiness to give in and try again but I can't really see much of a long term future on my current revenue base and with so many enemies.

Now that I know the lay of the land a bit better I'm tempted to start anew and either play the game as CA delivered it (anticipating the mob's response -in a gamey way no doubt) or using this mod to play something arguably more consistent and satisfying.

I think I'll do the later as I'd rather not get too gamey.

[Lemur]

Yeah, I don't mind the challenge of everybody getting angry at you and declaring war, it's the inflexibility of the arrangement that bugs me. I should be able to pick off clans, make them outrageous promises and either buy them out of the war or pull them to my side. Having a permanent -200 diplo penalty that never goes away is too much. I'm a big fan of divide and conquer, so that game mechanic takes away a great deal of my strategic joy. Mod installed. New campaign begun. I think I'll go to the other end of the island and try the Shimazu next.

[LeftEyeNine]

Which one is historically accurate, is any comparison viable ? Vanilla or modded ?

[Lemur]

Well, for example the Odas and the Tokugawas managed an alliance that lasted for the lifetime of both warlords, even when Oda Nobunaga tried (and sort of succeeded) to seize the Shogunate. Other alliances and vassal/lord arrangements survived just fine. So the game mechanic, as it's set up right now, is ahistorical. Even people seeking ultimate power still had friends.

[LeftEyeNine]

So, CA followed a MTW-esque Pope (excommunication/crusades) route in this ? Why, I wonder.

[crpcarrot]

If a game makes you think at work or in bed, then it's darn good.

At last.

So back to my sluggishness. >:|

the only games that invaded my dreams

STW
MTW
Football Manager
STW2

[LeftEyeNine]

So my 4th attempt had to end because it was too late to put an end to Shoni's or Sagara's existence on Kyushu.

I tried something new in my 5th go:

I piled up an army, skipped despite Osumo province being set as a quest target and went right to the heart of the Ito clan, Hyuga province. I wanted to make sure that I'm not stuck with progress. Osumo province was grabbed with ease. By that time the island was already occupied by the Otomo. They had severely weakened Shoni at the northern part of the island, so giving a push to recently-captured-by-Shoni Higo was no problem.

I took some time to replenish and go economical while all during these warfare years, I had gone Chi way of martial arts so that I could balance out economy/happiness/growth a bit, which yielded fine results.

As my trade partners fell one after another and since making an alliance with Otomo to feel safe was not received favorably by its opponents such as Matsuda and Chosokabe, my income was severed to a point of bankruptcy, but some fiddling with clans and another thrust towards the northern town of Tsukushi turned out to be a success.

It's 1555 again, 5 provinces in hand.

One clan starting with "O" with "feeble" power to the east coast, last hold of the Otomo in the northeastern town, also the last existence of Amako in the northwestern part.

Practice makes better, if not perfect. Now it's time to dominate whole Kyushu while I'm considered at war with Matsuda, who are "strong" owning 6 provinces and not far from "here.

I never thought this island would be such a mess of clans but it actually worked in my favor.

[Rothe]

I did not get to the divide yet, so I'd like to know how many provinces you can take before it triggers?

I expect that I'd want to capture almost that amount and then begin optimizing for the divide and anticipating attacks.

For me, the hard mode was ok for the battles, but for the campaign it felt a bit too limited as the economy only really allowed ashigaru units to keep the upkeep high enough.

I guess one part of the game is to try and pick out good provinces to conquer before the divide so they still will produce enough income and also have defensible bottlenecks in the map to allow defending with small number of stacks.

I also guess that it is a good idea to save up koku for the divide, so that you can run with a small income and still do some critical repairs/builds/recruits.

[Zarky]

I did not get to the divide yet, so I'd like to know how many provinces you can take before it triggers?


There is no exact number. I'm not sure if campaign difficulty or estimated clan difficulty affect this, but great victories and high daimyo honor also increase clan reputation.
Best you can do is not get great victories after "Shoguns Ire" message and capture couple provinces.

[LeftEyeNine]

1557 Summer and I own all of Kyushu. I've slowed down the conquests to improve the homeland for now.

Having met Takeda clan, I have a question for you:

Those guys own almost most of Central Japan with 11 provinces and I have brought a daughter of the daimyo into the family through marriage, hence building a "Very Friendly" relationship.

The Takeda are currently in war with Ashikaga Shogunate and they are "high"ly likely to accept a Military Alliance.

Does making a military alliance with Takeda at this point automatically make me waging war against the Shogunate ?

[Gregoshi]

Who is the bigger threat? The Takeda or the Shogunate? What is the advantage of an alliance with the Takeda at this point in the game? Isn't trade with them enough? Who else is dominant (a threat) and how close are they to you? If you abandon the Takeda, you at least got a wife from them to continue your line.

[Monk]

Does making a military alliance with Takeda at this point automatically make me waging war against the Shogunate ?

No i don't believe so. The Takeda would need to petition you to join in on the war. It's a dilpomatic option, look for it next time you're dealing with an ally/vassal you've setablished post war declaration.


Who is the bigger threat? The Takeda or the Shogunate? What is the advantage of an alliance with the Takeda at this point in the game? Isn't trade with them enough? Who else is dominant (a threat) and how close are they to you? If you abandon the Takeda, you at least got a wife from them to continue your line.

Proximity is the major thing i'd worry about in this instance. The Takeda sound like the emerging powerhouse in this game - so much so that they're already warring for Kyoto. If they have that sort of power would you really want to defy them? If you're sitting pretty on Kyushu far from the epicenter.. maybe so! Though i'm not sure what happens if another clan takes the capital. Do they become shogun and you lose? :confused:

[LeftEyeNine]

Who is the bigger threat? The Takeda or the Shogunate? What is the advantage of an alliance with the Takeda at this point in the game? Isn't trade with them enough? Who else is dominant (a threat) and how close are they to you? If you abandon the Takeda, you at least got a wife from them to continue your line.

Shogunate, after my 8th province capture, took me "prominent" and I was told that I should expect a call to arms against me by them in the future.

But this Takeda who are already in war with the Shogunate makes me wonder:

I made Matsuda, who are neighbors to me from Kyushu's connection to the main island, enemies for quite some time now despite the fact that only 1 naval battle took place between us so far. Actually they pose more of a threat to me right now with their 4 province and other 2 being under their threat and I wondered if I could use Takeda alliance to dodge Realm Divide and giving more to Matsuda to think about while their hands are already full with Ouchi and another faction right now.

Actually, if I'm not automatically against the Shogun itself once I'm in the pact, I'm seeing allying with Takeda beneficial for the moment, so as to spread to the mainland.

What do you think provided a clearer situation of things now ?

[Gregoshi]

Apart from meta-gaming the Realm Divide, it seems like the Takeda alliance would be beneficial to you. What are the prospects of taking Shikoku? Or is Honshu the better option? The Honshu provinces near Kyushu are fairly poor (I know, I own them in my campaign).

[andrewt]

I'd say ally with the Takeda. If you're allied for a long time, they stay with you through realm divide. The Shogunate is really harmless aside from that event.

[LeftEyeNine]

I thought of that today, too, Greg-sama. But Chosokabe on that island are a good trade partner of mine and they are not so feeble to overwhelm.

Also, I just can not peace out with Matsuda. Should I open a war front at Shikoku, I'll always be on my toes about Buzen because of the threat from the Matsuda.

You're absolutely right about the expansion given equal terms but Matsuda's vile existence is bothering me much right now.

[Gregoshi]

Well, that settles it then. The Matsuda...must...die! Didn't seem like there was much of a decision in this. I think you let the Realm Divide intimidate you into indecision. The course is clear - go for it! May Honour and Victory follow your armies. :bow:

[antisocialmunky]

Take Osumo first turn by ambushing the reinforcement army on the eastern edge of the map. Then just push as hard and fast as you can after securing the marriage alliance with the Sagara.

Its beneficial to have vassals for trade in my experience iwth Legendary Chokosabe(Legendary Shimazu is hard).

[LeftEyeNine]

@antisocialmunky

Uh, actually, Osumo was my 3rd conquest also Sagara have made it to our history classes in Shimazu schools already. I own Kyushu as a whole to be precise.

@Greg

I just proceeded as I thought but with very unexpected moves.

I infiltrated the Matsuda lands with a metsuke and a ninja so as to approximate what kind of an army would I encounter after my thrust. I had explored 3 of their 4 provinces where the journey had a rest at Bingo province. I right-clicked the town for fun and saw that for a mere price of 1500, the province could be bribed for %50-75, I can't remember correctly. I clicked "yes" out of boredom and tata! I cut Matsuda lands in half which was neighbors to fithy Amako to the north as a bonus.

"What the daisies have I done over there ? :inquisitive:" was the question as I was trying to make up my mind. The closest province I could support that absolutely unintended invasion was Buzen where the royal army itself was piling up for a war. But the problem was you had to march through Nagato (rebels), Suo (Matsuda) and Aki (later-to-be-Amako Matsuda). I had an ungarrisoned province in hand, I spammed some Ashigaru but a Matsuda recovery in bingo was inevitable and so it would happen had my "resourceful" metsuke not intervened again. I bribed the Matsuda army sent next turn for around 2500 koku generating a bunch of troops for the garrisoning of my forthcoming conquests.

Royal army pushed towards Suo, capturing it without any real casualties hence bringing Matsuda to the point of being a vassal because Aki, as I messed all over that place was overtaken by Amako.

I don't know what to say but the very same metsuke knocked Aki doors, to be honest for the first two times in vain, three times, eventually bribing them into being Shimuzan as well.

Next step was capturing Nagato and the neighboring province, the last hold of Amako and all of a sudden by 1560, I had 13 provinces which triggered Shogunate to be terribly aware of my expansion.

And I call it a day.

:bow:

[Gregoshi]

LEN, you are giving a new meaning to the name "Golden Horde" (cha-ching!).

[Reapz]

"Definitely too slow. You should be in a good position to get a leg up on the trade nodes; get as much money together as you can and start banging heads."

Trade nodes are for noobies. Real Generals just get straight into the fight and start grinding.

[LeftEyeNine]

LEN, you are giving a new meaning to the name "Golden Horde" (cha-ching!).

:beam:


"Definitely too slow. You should be in a good position to get a leg up on the trade nodes; get as much money together as you can and start banging heads."

Trade nodes are for noobies. Real Generals just get straight into the fight and start grinding.

I own 4 out of 5 trade nodes right now. The last one providing warhorses is too far and completely irrelevant to my policies right now. ~:)