View Full Version : Played Any Classic Battles Yet?
Tomisama
03-22-2011, 16:17
Have any of you tried, or even been able to try any Classic Battles yet?
Is anyone finding people to play with there?
I am interested in the Classic mode for competition purposes.
:book:
Hunter KIng George
03-23-2011, 03:36
Master Tomi,
Yes we have played a few classic battles but 3v3 are buggy. Most of the time someone drops and its hard to setup games right now. We were successful in setting up 3v3 matches thru invites only. When open games were hosted we rarely had peeps join, maybe something to do with players being able to see games...I know I rarely see any.
Jochi Khan
03-23-2011, 14:23
The problem is the lack of an International Foyer/Lobby.
As the game is at present unless you are logged in to a Clan Chat room you cannot link up with people you know.
Even this restricts you to your dedicated clan players.
All the people on your Friends list do not show in Foyer or in Game List battle setups.
I have no idea Tomisama how you would be able to set up and run competitions.
As I understood it the Classic Battle mode was 'supposed' to allow you to play MP the way you did in other TW games.
(Look for/host a game by choice or name, join and play. That was so easy to do.)
The problem is the lack of an International Foyer/Lobby.
As the game is at present unless you are logged in to a Clan Chat room you cannot link up with people you know.
Even this restricts you to your dedicated clan players.
All the people on your Friends list do not show in Foyer or in Game List battle setups.
I have no idea Tomisama how you would be able to set up and run competitions.
As I understood it the Classic Battle mode was 'supposed' to allow you to play MP the way you did in other TW games.
(Look for/host a game by choice or name, join and play. That was so easy to do.)
Yes, I made a tread about this problem. All you can do is hosting games and invite people with steam, thats the only way to get teambattles going right now.
Unless you want to play for the ladder, than you have to play via MM.
The classic model will have a hard time, i doubt many will use it!
AggonyKing
03-23-2011, 17:07
Tomi today is my last final then off to vacations ^_^ so look for me after today if you want to try out classic mode extensively. I'll grab a few Aggs by the ear if we need guinea pigs.
Tomisama
03-23-2011, 17:11
Well with the Clan Wars Competition, all Matches are scheduled by the participant Teams days in advance, with Steam being the major method of summoning players from both Teams for Battle when they meet.
So although I believe that the current visibility problem will soon be fixed, the limitation of "invitation" would not present a problem at all..
We do always fight 3v3, and that may still need some attention, but this may also be solved by the above convention of "invitation" only.
Guess what I am really asking is about the Classic Battle mode its self.
Checking the Classic Battle box provides a set of nine game-clan choices with all units and their selectable upgrades available to all players (believe all are the same).
All of the Map Battle upgrades for Generals, Unlocks, Retainers, are gone.
What is left is very close to the format we had in the original Shogun.
With the Map and Leaderboard competitions in-game (so to speak), my thought was to make the Classic Battle mode the true battleground for community competitions (at least the CWC).
Player to player balance is my main reason for looking in this direction.
Thoughts?
Knowledge?
Tests anyone has made (I am very limited time wise atm).
Tomisama
03-23-2011, 17:12
Tomi today is my last final then off to vacations ^_^ so look for me after today if you want to try out classic mode extensively. I'll grab a few Aggs by the ear if we need guinea pigs.
Thanks King :beam:
With the Map and Leaderboard competitions in-game (so to speak), my thought was to make the Classic Battle mode the true battleground for community competitions (at least the CWC).
That's the way to go. :2thumbsup:
From what I have heard it should work exactly like you are envisaging, but I have not tried it myself.
Alas, the time limitiation (due to real life) is affecting me, too. But I'll be happy to help and support whenever I can.
OK, I gave the Classical Battle a try yesterday.
Have to say that it is still very buggy.
One thing that happened was that when I tried to choose the Oda clan, it started circeling through all clans on the set up screed. Had to quit and host again.
Another thing was that I could not set up an army. In the set up screen, when I selected the general, the "add to army" button was still dark. When I went back one step and selected a new map and went back in again it worked. This effect was reproducible (at least twice).
Did not get as far as to play, since no player joined (and I had no time to wait for one).
On the plus side : it looks very nice if it works as intended. You can select all units, can give them honour upgrades, can easily change the number of players without having to re-host, can add up to 6 spectators.
Very nice, I think if they fix the bugs, it could be what we are looking for.
But fix the bugs they must.
AggonyKing
03-25-2011, 17:36
we tried classic mode yesterday in an in-house game. One thing I was immediately disappointed about was not being able to add a spectator spot.
As far as gameplay, there's no loan swords which means you can bring mor samurai based builds. The gen unit costs a lot for the crappy bonus and abilities that you get with it! The game lasted way longer than on conquest mode. Seems like morale is higher or something and the units lasted longer. I'll upload the replay if anyone wants to see, was a good game :)
we tried classic mode yesterday in an in-house game. One thing I was immediately disappointed about was not being able to add a spectator spot.
As far as gameplay, there's no loan swords which means you can bring mor samurai based builds. The gen unit costs a lot for the crappy bonus and abilities that you get with it! The game lasted way longer than on conquest mode. Seems like morale is higher or something and the units lasted longer. I'll upload the replay if anyone wants to see, was a good game :)
This sounds promising, the avatar builds whilst fun are annoying due to cost, on medium funds you tend to have predominantly Ashi armies,which isnt like it was in the original, its also going to be very hard to implement fair rules for tournaments using Avatars.
Having more of the higher graded units and longer battles in classic mode makes it more attractive now tbh.
AggonyKing
03-25-2011, 18:03
the prices are definitely fixed in classic mode. I still think the gen unit costs is a little high but you can easily field a nice big army with samurai inf on med funds. This is probably why the game lasts longer too as you don't have a billion ashi units running through the field, but more professional units. Your general also has rally, inspire, and stand & fight by default. The last one is a huge morale booster.
All the units also have all their abilities unlocked. Matchlocks have rapid fire, bows fire arrows, etc.
Swoosh So
03-27-2011, 00:49
Tried it and wasent very impressed tbh, too early to form a full opinion but the normal mode is so much more interesting than classic for the combos u can explore with armies.
Tomisama
03-27-2011, 02:35
The Clasic Battle provides nine levels of upgrade for each unit, raising attack, defence, and morale, to suit the battle you are fighting at the time.
I think that you may actully get more possible cominations with Classic than with Avatar games.
If you don't see the +/- upgrade selectors, you are in the wrong place.
PanzerJaeger
03-27-2011, 05:33
Managed to play one last night. It was really fun. And then it crashed.
Tried it and wasent very impressed tbh, too early to form a full opinion but the normal mode is so much more interesting than classic for the combos u can explore with armies.
Yes, the normal mode provides a lot more fun, vets are a nice thing.
Tomisama
03-27-2011, 15:43
Yes, the normal mode provides a lot more fun, vets are a nice thing.
Once you get to the top and everybody has access to the same units, it is the same as playing the Classic Battle mode.
Only the Classic Battle mode has nine levels of directly selectable upgrades for each unit, so you can fine tune your army before each battle.
Enjoy the Avatar games, conquer the Map, headline the Leaderboard, devastate all of the Battle List games you can make or take; and then when you want to really test your metal head to head and prove you are truly the best, come to the Classic Battles mode.
That’s ma story, and I'm a stickn to it :wink:
Once you get to the top and everybody has access to the same units, it is the same as playing the Classic Battle mode.
Only the Classic Battle mode has nine levels of directly selectable upgrades for each unit, so you can fine tune your army before each battle.
Enjoy the Avatar games, conquer the Map, headline the Leaderboard, devastate all of the Battle List games you can make or take; and then when you want to really test your metal head to head and prove you are truly the best, come to the Classic Battles mode.
That’s ma story, and I'm a stickn to it :wink:
Its more fun yes, but its also almost impossible to have players on a similar level playing field even at level 10 each person will have different veterans at different levels, it still rewards the player who plays more often due to the Vet Upgrades and Clan Upgrades.
Its more fun yes, but its also almost impossible to have players on a similar level playing field even at level 10 each person will have different veterans at different levels, it still rewards the player who plays more often due to the Vet Upgrades and Clan Upgrades.
Well, we had that last time in game already, i will explain it again.
Vets. You just host a game and than lvl your vets by killing your opponent. I never would lvl me vets in normal games, this takes too long and is pointless.
Missles are quicker than melee, but its pretty easy really, this has nothing to do with more playtime.
The clantokens, same as above, set up game, wait 3 min and rout it.... this are about 15-20 tokens a hour...
Well, we had that last time in game already, i will explain it again.
Vets. You just host a game and than lvl your vets by killing your opponent. I never would lvl me vets in normal games, this takes too long and is pointless.
Missles are quicker than melee, but its pretty easy really, this has nothing to do with more playtime.
The clantokens, same as above, set up game, wait 3 min and rout it.... this are about 15-20 tokens a hour...
You don't need to explain it, I know how to level them :), the fact remains whichever way its done you still have unlevel playing fields, even with every player having maxed out his/her vets they still wont be the same from player to player, thats the point and this is without taking retainers into account as well.
With classic mode everyone has the same toolset.
thats true, but with tweaking around my vets i can build me the army the way i want to play. If im a defensive player, i can get me the units the way i want.
I really like it and i think that the vets are one of the big steps in the right direction. Classic is one way to play, yes, the problem here is, that the game is bad balanced for classic. Normal play isnt better balanced, but i can counter some of the imbalances with some beefed up vets.
I create a save spot and people (unless 22k) have a hard time to use the advance of the high moral units, who never rout.
Tomisama
03-28-2011, 16:26
People love the Avatar game with its chain of gratifications, and they especially love their Vets.
The Vets are like children you nurture and grow, and if you did good, they take care of you in return by bringing victorys home.
And we don't want anyone to lose out on the experience of rising in power, and seeing their talored units succeed as intended.
That is the purpose of the Avatar game, and nobody wants to take that way from anyone.
In proposing that some competitions use the Classic Battles mode should not threten or interfear with Avatar life, any more than playing the Multiplayer or Singleplayer Campaigns.
These are all different aspects of the game, and all can be explored and enjoyed for their own sakes, without conflict between them.
Swoosh So
03-28-2011, 21:10
I think the CWC should move with the times tbh just my opinion NOONE plays classic mode at all.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
03-28-2011, 23:22
I think the CWC should move with the times tbh just my opinion NOONE plays classic mode at all.
I argee with you Swoosh.
sorry i think classic mode is the only fair mode stw2 has the rest is novelty and favors the already advanced player just like in wow and countless other games .
don't get me wrong it can be fun and i enjoy this new addition to the game but u cant really get a even match unless u same lvl and even then if u didn't read up and check all the combos and diff specs etc... so for honour there is only classic system imo
ps: how playable classic mode is right now is a another Q
AggonyKing
03-31-2011, 00:44
Tomi we tried classic mode today with some friends and here's how it went:
Attempt 1: 1 player got stuck and couldn't pick an army
Attemp 2: 1 player couldn't pick a faction
Attempt 3: Players dropped soon after joining the game
Attempt 4: We actually made it into the match, everyone dropped 2 mins into it
attempt 5: "**** it! lets go do normal mode"
thats how it went :P
Tomisama
03-31-2011, 02:52
attempt 5: "**** it! lets go do normal mode"
thats how it went :P
And I assume that the normal game went fine.
They have made "classic" mode games for 11 years, but now this one doesn’t work?
Trying very hard to be positive about this; maybe they will get around to making it useable in the future :grin:
Thanks AK!
Swoosh So
03-31-2011, 03:14
Tomisawa i suggest the following:
Normal mode for cwc (NOT classic mode)
No vets allowed!
All retainers and general skills allowed as normal
Imo at the moment thats going to be the best format along with any unit restrictions u may want to add.
We did alot of such games u know when and peeps loved it.
AggonyReborn
03-31-2011, 05:33
Normal mode would work if it werent for the general costs. unless everyone was level 10 in the tourny.
Tomi we tried classic mode today with some friends and here's how it went:
Attempt 1: 1 player got stuck and couldn't pick an army
Attemp 2: 1 player couldn't pick a faction
Attempt 3: Players dropped soon after joining the game
Attempt 4: We actually made it into the match, everyone dropped 2 mins into it
attempt 5: "**** it! lets go do normal mode"
thats how it went :P
Make sure you post a description of these problems (without the **** words) at the official forum.
At the moment they are still in the process of patching the game. In 6 month times I guess they will be hard pressed to release any more patches, so what does not get fixed in the next few months will most likely never get fixed. And what you describe is serious enough to be something they cant ignore, just as long as they have read about it.
After that we will be left with whatever game mode actually works and make the best of it.
And I am not saying that that is a bad thing, just now we still have the chance that they will get the Classical Mode to work as it should.
Chimpyang
03-31-2011, 19:33
Friends can't see when I have hosted classic mode battles, I presume a lot of other people can't see them either, since nobody has ever joined a game, no matter how long i leave it. The game will also CTD or lag badly even in the setup screen, but only if I have classic mode selected (self hosting Normal Mode causes no problems as far as I can see myself)
Also, more maps for classic mode please (I mean the ones without key buildings on them), when hosting, if you deselect key buildings, the number of MP maps drops by 1/2, the option to play those maps without key buildings would be very welcome and add longeivity and purity to the game.
So yeah, classic mode is pretty broken. Normal mode without retainers or vets would probably be the fairest thing.
Dionysus9
04-01-2011, 00:42
Just for the record, I'm having similar problems in Classic mode.
plz stop calling avatar normal mode its not !!! classic is and they screwed it !!! lol
We tried yesterday a classic battle, this is what happened:
1. colors are a problem still, we had 3 times red, its a nightmare! If we ever play on classic, we need to ensure, that we wont see same colors.... in 3v3 it will be impossible
2. Lag. heavy lag, already in the setup-phase, during game is was really bad as well
3. General. there seems to be no difference between the 300 and the 600 general
4. unitchoice, I checked all clans and i couldnt choose loan swords.
5. upgrades, as AMP already pointed out, upgrading missles isnt really an option.
Well, it was just one game, this need more testing, especially the lag (could be possible, that this isnt normal). Also we should invest some time to check out the stats and how its actual working. I myself have no idea whats going on with classic, never spend time into this.
If this is normal, than I dont see us playing classic, this is no fun and we hardly will find enough player, who like this.
The lag, the colors and the unit-system needs patching, else I see no point to play classic.
I will test a few more this weekend and will report here. One game is a not enough, so see this as my first experience, but not my final statement concerning classic.
Tomisama
04-01-2011, 12:54
plz stop calling avatar normal mode its not !!! classic is and they screwed it !!! lol
So true Jun :bow:
Classic is currently unstable; so many people are proposing a no-art, no-vets,
Avatar 3v3 contest.
If there is no relief or promise in the next week, we will probably go that way.
The recurring question is the balance of Generals.
I dont think that it will be possible, to balance it for the different styles.
Once vets come in, the balance becomes tricky, if you take vets out, it will change again.
Imo there should be one working way in the first place, after that we can work on other things.
The Avatar-MM is the way most people play and that should be the first thing to balance and work on. If its sorted, than we could go and fix classic.
I see many who like the MM way and I dont see classic becoming mainstream at all.
You can maybe get a tourney going on classic, but you will leave a whole new generation of TW player out.
I see many who like the MM way and I dont see classic becoming mainstream at all.
I am not so shure about that.
At the moment MM is the big hype as everyone is keen to level up and build their avatar.
But once most people have reaced level 10 and I understand that there is no more to go higher from there, it may become boring and people may turn (back) to Classical Mode instead.
That, of course, is only if CA get it working properly.
Jochi Khan
04-01-2011, 16:38
I see many who like the MM way and I dont see classic becoming mainstream at all.
As Nigel posted, I also am not sure about this quote.
Weren't we promised that, those who liked the original way of playing MP would still have the Classic Mode for playing online?
You can maybe get a tourney going on classic, but you will leave a whole new generation of TW player out.
Aren't they already left out by the fact that they still can't see games being hosted.
I have spent hours in the chat lobby trying to explain to 'newcomers' the complications of this so called 'new setup'
Some of them even begging to be invited to play if you will host.
This game is going totally backwards other than for the players arranging to play all hours together just to get to 10 Star Generals.
AggonyKing
04-01-2011, 17:10
well there really is no way to balance the cost of avatars unless everyone is the same level but we can at least have a minimum level requirement like 7 and up. There are also 2 discount retainers that come in handy for saving extra money and getting those extra units. My avatar currently costs me 1300 (not level 10 yet) but with the discount retainers I can easily field my favorite seup :)
Dionysus9
04-01-2011, 18:23
I guess I'm not too terribly worried about it. The higher level avatars are pretty over-priced. Right now I'm 6 stars and I've been routinely beating 8 star avatars. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, and my win/loss ratio isn't all that hot-- but my point is-- the glory and honor of taking out a higher star avatar (and the shame and humiliation inflicted) make a pretty strong incentive to fight avatars above ones level-- especially in a public context like a tournament. I guess, on the flip side, the higher avatar guys have only pride to lose by playing lower-star avatars...so... well I guess I can see the point that nobody was making, lol...
I know that this is a game and that tourneys are akin to a "sport" and therefore everyone wants to have a level playing field (although not necessarily a flat map) -- but on the other hand, this game attempts to realistically simulate ancient battlefield tactics-- When in ancient warefare were the opposing sides ever precisely "equal?"
And of course that is a rhetorical question because we all know it was never fair or equal. Anyway-- now I'm just repeating myself.
I seem to find the battle list empty most of the time be the battles avatar or classic I don't know if it is because I can't see the games hosted or no one is hosting still if others are having this problem would make it hard to find players for classic games.
Chimpyang
04-01-2011, 19:19
So summary of my other experiences with the MP
Manually hosting an avatar game seems to be fine, no lag, crashes etc...but I'm not sure whether people can see it in the list or not, since my friends insta-joined. Classic mode battles seem properly screwed atm, lags, crashes etc.., and I'm finding it hard to convince people who are new to TW to play on the avatar system, since they don't like the unfair playing field created. Also, classic mode needs a neutral faction, without bonuses, so tourney play can be carried out on an even playing field (i.e. they dont mind losing if it is all down to skill, but the purity of the win is diluted somewhat if there are variables such as retainers, general abilities, unit unlocks etc... thrown in, this is ofc until everyone gets every unlock available to them....)
MM can be a little bit borked when it comes to placing you in battles, but nothing that is insufferable. I see people saying that MM puts then into 3v1 or other imbalanced games. When this happens, so long as the host player is clued up, they can open and close spots so that people can juggle onto the right teams.
Community is ok so far, lots of people are polite and do the Gl hf, and gg etc...ran into some really immature kids around, but not more than expected or more immature than on CODBLOPSFiSt. Not much chat going on though, the people you play through MM often arnt in chat, so you can't banter about matches, make challenges etc...like in the good old days. If only CA would just put everyone into one room.
Drop in battles are a LOT of fun and work quite well, but because it's a default option at campaign startup, you can get some matches against very inexpereienced players, and more often than not, I feel bad about beating them, especially if the battle looks like it is quite significant (large armies, important characters)
Question - what effects are people noticing on unit sizes? Small gives lots of room for manoeuvre, but I'm undecided as to whether it favors Cav as seen before. 4v4 on anything above normal doesnt seem feasible on the maps currently, since i imagine it would just be line vs line warfare...also, what factors determines the unit size in a MM battle? Are people deliberately setting small unit sizes to force other people to play to them?
Are people deliberately setting small unit sizes to force other people to play to them?
No, MM team battles seem to automatically go to small unit sizes, which is a big area of concern and has been discussed at the official forum in some threads. In short, most people would prefer to play larger armies in MM team battles (e.g. on small sizes matchlock units can sometime kill or rout another small unit with a single volley).
Ive been involved in some Classic games since this weeks patch, not great news. Upgrades didnt transfer from army selection into the battle, games were very laggy and we had a number of crashes trying to create a game at all.
On top of that there seem to be many bugs, units not following commands etc.
jackie_fish
04-14-2011, 13:37
i have played classic battle but to be honest i think it is dead
Dionysus9
04-14-2011, 18:44
Spoon-- Hmmm... I played some last night and had fun but I didn't check valor upgrades to see if they worked. I'm wondering if your crashing and game creation problems might have been associated with a particular player's connection? I'll play a few more tonight and see how they go. As far as I can tell they are only "dead" because people want to rank up their avatar and vets by playing non-classic.
Swoosh So
04-14-2011, 23:15
The generals are well balanced tomi, and at the end of the day everyone has the same trees to construct their general from so no problem there. I actually think more and more each day that we should just do tournaments with vets as its getting more and more fun when were hosting clan v clan matches. i was a big fan of doing no vets games u know when but tbh it kinda feels like id be going back to some dusty stifled mode without vets ofc i will if the cwc is set that way which im sure it will be. Id say med or large funds with avatar mode and all retainers usable should be quite fun.
Tomisama
04-22-2011, 16:20
I am reposting this here for any who have not had the opportunity to see it.
Why do we need a Classic Battles mode?
The seriousness with which most Total War veteran Clans approach international long term Team competitions can be, and most often is extreme!
The commitment in man hours in practice and playing many Matches, and managing your real life around competition dates, can put a heavy price tag on participation in these events.
The smallest details come under the magnifying glass, and with everyone ramped with anticipation, and can often get blown out of proportion in importance.
And it can only take a single word like “cheater”, or a Match situation that is so close that both sides come back raving about how they were the actual winners, to blow a whole contest.
To minimize the volatile potential that these major Team contests have, both Teams must have access to exactly the same resources in both quantity and at the same time, not just potentially.
And here’s the hard part; everything must be completely up front and fully visible at the start; and completely reviewable after the Match is over, so that any questions as to the correctness of the result can be verified to be legitimate.
Avatar does not have the transparency necessary for contest administration to be able insure fair play for global level multi-partner multiplayer events.
Avatar is great fun and I have nothing against it at all. But there is no competitive sport anywhere in the world that would allow various entry levels of contestants, or a pre-accumulation of game advantages, for a definitive head to head test of skill.
Dionysus9
04-22-2011, 19:47
I know exactly where you are coming from Tomi and as a tourney admin (and the best tourney admin out there, mind you) you have to look out for your contestants. We all respect you for your fairness!
I'm sorry, though, I just can't help but be a gadfly, its part of my fundamental nature.
What about boxing? In boxing you have weight classes. Sometimes a guy is at the top of his weight class (almost in the next one) and he's fighting a guy who is at the bottom of the weight class (almost in the lower one). Their height and weight, reach, fitness and training will differ-- which of course makes a difference in the outcome of the sporting event.
Similarly, in the Olympics-- contestants from developed nations have a substantial advantage in training and equipment that athletes from developing nations don't have because they can't afford superior equipment and training. Again those advantages accumulate and make a difference in the result.
I understand it is your goal to minimize those sorts of differences and advantages - but try as we might, they will always be present. Someone who can play Shogun 2 full time 60 hours a week is going to have a massive advantage against me if I'm only playing 10 hours a week.
All of that said, I tend to agree that Avatar does not have the level of transparency neccessary. You can't tell in a replay what retainers the avatars both had. That alone is probably a deal-breaker.
Keep striving for the ideal, Tomi, it makes your tournies a success.
Jochi Khan
04-23-2011, 01:05
And here’s the hard part; everything must be completely up front and fully visible at the start; and completely reviewable after the Match is over, so that any questions as to the correctness of the result can be verified to be legitimate.
One thing that has not been mentioned.
In past CWC games there has always been the option for the Administrator to ask for the saved replay to be uploaded to verify any difference of opinion about a result.
As the game is now, a saved replay stops when the battle finishes. It does not show the result, game players names, total kills etc for each player.
There is no way that an adjudicator can judge whether or not there has been a misdemeanour.
So replays are no longer evidence of fair play.
CanCritter
04-23-2011, 04:11
hmm..outa the pot and into the fire...l say we hang them
AggonyKing
04-23-2011, 07:59
you can still tell who is who as the loading screen will tell ya :) and with CWC being a "no same clan" it won't be hard to always know who took what.
its still annoying though, why can we see the names on avatar mode replays but not on regular mode replays? :/
I suppose as they can not see it from a replay they could ask for a screen shot of the battle results screen from each player.
Tomisama
04-23-2011, 14:12
I suppose as they can not see it from a replay they could ask for a screen shot of the battle results screen from each player. Exactly (well not every player) :smile:
4. Results
The results must be posted with a capture by the winning Team of the Match. The replays must be saved for an optional public diffusion at the end of the Contest. The losing team must confirm the result as a matter of sportsmanship.
But "all" claims (wins and errors) must be documented acording to the Rules.
http://clanwars3540.yuku.com/topic/1622/Spring-2011-Championship-Regulations-v-1-0
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-24-2011, 10:36
If you ask me?
I don't mind hosting classic battles,(my computer can run classic MM battles)And I think I can host a team battle or a 3 vs 3.I don't know why they seperated it.
I mean you can't play like The Takeda vs The Chosobake,instead its avatar mode,and I'm not impressed with that. :!
Imagine if ,Lets say I am Takeda Shingen and I have my 2 Generals beside me Yamamoto and Nobutomo vs Chosobake and other players.
That would be good,anyone interested for that match or something else I dont know.
Since avatar conquest is a futile endeavor right now, I guess I'm down for some classic battles.
Just add me on steam and we'll play sometime.
Swoosh So
04-28-2011, 19:00
Cant believe cwc is gonna be ruined with classiic mode i was so looking forward to it :( i dont see any sense in using this crap mode, just go with no vets im telling u its way better than classic, if generals are different levels (most will be level 10 anyway) the lesser player gets more cash to spend so its all good there.... did u vote on classic mode v avatar mode or something? who the hell would vote for this mode? somone who hasent played much?
AggonyReborn
04-28-2011, 23:27
the main issue with playing avatar mode is the general cost due to retainer costs. Those retainers wont be used in this type of format. so technically the lower level players will have that money advantage. If avatar mode is used then all players should be level 10 in order to participate. Classic mode is buggy indeed, but its the best alternative to no advantages for any side. plus its interesting to play without the option of using loan swords, and monk matchlocks, can make for some different army builds.
Swoosh So
04-29-2011, 01:11
I mean play avatar mode with everything including retainers just missing vets.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-30-2011, 16:21
Since avatar conquest is a futile endeavor right now, I guess I'm down for some classic battles.
Just add me on steam and we'll play sometime.
will do.
Magyar Khan
05-03-2011, 16:31
We tried yesterday a classic battle, this is what happened:
1. colors are a problem still, we had 3 times red, its a nightmare! If we ever play on classic, we need to ensure, that we wont see same colors.... in 3v3 it will be impossible
2. Lag. heavy lag, already in the setup-phase, during game is was really bad as well
3. General. there seems to be no difference between the 300 and the 600 general
4. unitchoice, I checked all clans and i couldnt choose loan swords.
5. upgrades, as AMP already pointed out, upgrading missles isnt really an option.
Well, it was just one game, this need more testing, especially the lag (could be possible, that this isnt normal). Also we should invest some time to check out the stats and how its actual working. I myself have no idea whats going on with classic, never spend time into this.
If this is normal, than I dont see us playing classic, this is no fun and we hardly will find enough player, who like this.
The lag, the colors and the unit-system needs patching, else I see no point to play classic.
I will test a few more this weekend and will report here. One game is a not enough, so see this as my first experience, but not my final statement concerning classic.
will the banner colours be patched?
Cant believe cwc is gonna be ruined with classiic mode i was so looking forward to it :( i dont see any sense in using this crap mode, just go with no vets im telling u its way better than classic, if generals are different levels (most will be level 10 anyway) the lesser player gets more cash to spend so its all good there.... did u vote on classic mode v avatar mode or something? who the hell would vote for this mode? somone who hasent played much?
It is chosen by people who reject innovation and more strategy options. O wait, i cant say that otherwise i may get banned even on the .org. Instead of looking to find solutions (which are easy, you even give a good solution) and include the advantages of the avatar game, they went a step back, but well, thats CWC, walking 2 steps forward, and go 3 back in the end in the name of 'perfect balance'. Lets hope the other large tournament CWB got some sense though.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
05-05-2011, 01:40
It is chosen by people who reject innovation and more strategy options. O wait, i cant say that otherwise i may get banned even on the .org. Instead of looking to find solutions (which are easy, you even give a good solution) and include the advantages of the avatar game, they went a step back, but well, thats CWC, walking 2 steps forward, and go 3 back in the end in the name of 'perfect balance'. Lets hope the other large tournament CWB got some sense though.
Guess you have a point,Abu.
Swoosh So
05-05-2011, 11:11
All im saying classic mode is not "classic mode" the avatar mode with vets does the same thing but is much better - i really doubt theres some serious clan member out there less than level 10 thats gonna participate.
AggonyDuck
05-05-2011, 13:51
My take on the matter is that we had to choose between two bad options for the CWC and we went with the Classic mode as we perceived that it was more equal, which was more important than the limitations it had. The first tournaments with new games are always a test and this is a test on whether Classic mode is actually feasible for a big 3v3 clan tournament.
AggonyDuck
05-05-2011, 13:53
That said I wouldn't mind seeing the .org host a 3v3 Avatar clan competition. I'm fairly certain that the site has the infrastructure and the personel for it. There's isn't much competition out there in terms of 3v3 Avatar competition, so it would be easy to attract clans to participate, especially clans that aren't keen on classic mode. .
That said I wouldn't mind seeing the .org host a 3v3 Avatar clan competition. I'm fairly certain that the site has the infrastructure and the personel for it. There's isn't much competition out there in terms of 3v3 Avatar competition, so it would be easy to attract clans to participate, especially clans that aren't keen on classic mode. .
We gonna do that, I personal would like to see how the current 1v1 turns out before starting anything new.
Testing the tool and see how things turn out. Im happy so far, there are many people involved and all are very eager to get something running here.
I spoke with WOC about the CWB and I also try to help out Tomi with the CWC (well, he dont need much of help anyway).
There are pro´s and contra´s with classic mode. One real big problem are colors, if you go for red its a nightmare, if 3 red armies meet somewhere.
It also takes a big new thing out and brings other problems. On the other hand classic provides more fairplay.
But yes, If we are happy with the 1v1, I strongly suggest we get some kind of clan-3v3-campaign going here at the Org.
..... I strongly suggest we get some kind of clan-3v3-campaign going here at the Org.
Hi Kocmoc and AggonyDuck,
You may want to check out an idea of mine in this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?135239-Community-Clan-Competition
Let me know what you think.
Swoosh So
05-05-2011, 18:28
There are pro´s and contra´s with classic mode.
Just got the vision of Nicaraguan rebels being in support of classic mode :) Dont worry mike you are correct just its a word i rarely see.
i can tell CWB is gonna be avatar mode.
dinadan actually recently solved all fairness issues with avatar mode. the only hurdle was retainers, and if you mandate that only enemy debuff retainers can be played, and of those only ones with corresponding avatar map unlocks (which is a lot of them, but ones all level 10 players will have, especially in a month or two when it actually begins) plus a cap on veterans, and unique veteran names for each veteran you do bring, there are actually no conceptual hurdles to a 100% fair avatar mode among 10 star players, even with different total hours played.
of course there are other considerations. CWB is sort of slow and a joint venture between WoC, RTK, HG, IMP, and now Wolves. so the actual rules are still being worked on, so details could change. but they're drafting the rules with respect to avatar mode so i assume that is what it will be. they also wanted to wait for patches and wait for CWC to get started to reduce overlap between the two competitions. CWC avatar mode wasn't really possible because enough people aren't level 10 anyway. in a month that won't be an issue, and after solving the retainer question, there is no real reason not to play avatar mode and the increased diversity of game play that comes with it.
Avatar mode (implemented as outlined above) definitely slightly increases the need for pre-game planning and strategy at the expense of actual in game micro, and in that sense it is way different than any previous total war. some players may not like this as much and that is totally legit concern. but it is fair.
Tomisama
05-06-2011, 01:38
Just got the vision of Nicaraguan rebels being in support of classic mode :) Dont worry mike you are correct just its a word i rarely see.Really very funny Swoosh, thanks :wink:
And more power to the Clan War Belt, good to see some action there :charge:
A question for anyone:
I keep seeing this same complaint about banner colors in Classic Battles, and do not understand it.
Each Classic Battles faction has a very distinct banner and unique uniform colors, and if the Rules say that there are no same factions allowed within a Battle, where does the confusion come in?
I really wish and hope that they do make factions with selectable colors like the old days, but at the same time for contests it won’t make any difference, as most won’t allow same factions in a battle anyway.
Really very funny Swoosh, thanks :wink:
And more power to the Clan War Belt, good to see some action there :charge:
A question for anyone:
I keep seeing this same complaint about banner colors in Classic Battles, and do not understand it.
Each Classic Battles faction has a very distinct banner and unique uniform colors, and if the Rules say that there are no same factions allowed within a Battle, where does the confusion come in?
I really wish and hope that they do make factions with selectable colors like the old days, but at the same time for contests it won’t make any difference, as most won’t allow same factions in a battle anyway.
There are clans with almost same color (the worst example is "red"), I had this problem in two testgames now, where this 3 clans meet, there is a big confusion.
Its just the red color, nothing else, you simply cant see who is who anymore.
You can easy test it yourself, get 3 people in and choose the red clans, than try to move the unit together.
About the 3v3.
Generally, I like the CWC and the idea behind with classic mode. This is at least one way to involve this "old" kind of TW gaming, its good to have that!
I also like the avatar style, CWB will stick to the www.clanwarbelt.com, I spoke with the guy in charge of it. He is pretty nice and they did a real good job the last years, I fully understand why they want to keep it at the place.
Id like to see such an event here at the Org. My basic idea is to have (as long there are enough player online) 3 different tourneys running all the time. A 1v1, 2v2 and a 3v3.
It might be possible to get some speed with certain tourneys at some point and really get it done in 1-2 weeks only. Hard to say, but the Org is working hard to give the community a good home.
Tomisama
05-06-2011, 12:46
Generally, I like the CWC and the idea behind with classic mode. This is at least one way to involve this "old" kind of TW gaming, its good to have that!
This was just our first time startup competition for the "new" game (do what you know).
The CWC Council suggested that we shelve the map based Swiss extravaganza I had wanted to start with.
Needed to get the community built up again, and work out the kinks in the new game they said.
But watch for this new one in the Fall :smile:
Good Luck All!!!
AggonyDuck
05-06-2011, 12:58
As Tomi said, the CWC is a very adaptable tournament and who knows what the Autumn tournament will be like. :)
Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "Swiss extravaganza" ?
Tomisama
05-06-2011, 23:09
Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "Swiss extravaganza" ?
I thought you'd never ask :smile:
Most tourneys are Single Elimination knock outs, where only some make it to the end. The total opposite would be a Round Robin, where everyone plays everyone else in and for the length of the contest. The Swiss tourney is fast track Round Robin. In it everyone plays from the beginning to the end, but not everyone plays everyone else. The fast track part of it is in the matching, where only "like" (same skill level) players play each other in successive rounds. The process separates skill levels quickly, and reduces the length of the tournament.
The extravaganza part will take longer to explain...will be home soon and give it a try.
Tomisama
05-07-2011, 14:43
The extravaganza part will take longer to explain...will be home soon and give it a try.
Note: Contest Retainers (below) are not Shogun 2 game retainers, but are actual defeated competing Clan Teams.
Imagine a map of Japan, broken up into 32 provinces.
Each Province is the property of a real sengoku period Game Clan, noted by the Clan Moniker marker.
Contest Teams are assigned to these provinces, one each.
They assume Province ownership and the identity of the Game Clan.
Random Battle Assignments are set and fought.
The map is designed in such a way that every Province has sea access, so has access to every other Province, making the beginning random assignment and further developing assignments possible.
(No actual sea travel or battles necessary, this is just symbolic access)
The losers of the Battle take on the Game Clan identity of the winning Team; that is the Marker on their province changes, and the Contest continues.
Every time a Team wins a Battle, the province of their opponent comes under the banner of the winners Game Clan, the Team stays the same and in the same place.
Battle Assignments are actually being made on Swiss System format, but are being “displayed” on the map as changing territory ownership.
The Teams keep on competing until one Game Clan owns a majority of the property, even if this means only one more Province.
The essence of the display is that of the real situation. What everyone sees is that if you beat another Team, they then become Retainers of your Game Clan.
And in every Battle that they fight and win from then on, their winnings are added to that same Game Clan.
Of course if they loose, they come under the banner of the victors Game Clan, but all previous winnings (retainers gained) remain counted to their former Game Clan banner, and now under the control of their previous Retainers.
What is gained by displaying a Contest Map depiction of the Contest, (even though it is no different than a regular Swiss) is that all Teams are encouraged to continue, as they are then all part of something larger than them selves, even if they are not winning outright.
Ok, let’s just look at one of the situations above for explanation purposes.
We will just follow two Teams for simplicity.
Team 1 is Oda Clan.
Team 2 is Takeda Clan.
They are Battle and the following happens.
Team 1 wins and Team 2 becomes Oda also.
Four scenarios follow:
One: They go on and Team 1 loses the next Match and becomes a Retainer of the Hojo.
Team 2 is still Oda, and will continue to carry that banner to the end unless they loose to someone else.
Two: They go on and Team 2 looses the next Match and becomes a Retainer of the Usagui. Team 1 continues as Oda, and will carry that banner to the end unless they loose to someone else.
Three: They go on and neither one looses any more matches and the Contest ends in Round five. Team 1 will have five points, and team 2 will have 4 (having lost that first Battle). Team 1, the original Oda is the Champion Team, and with that glory is able to share their honors with other Teams that they have made Oda along the way.
Four: Both go on and are defeated, taking on the identity of their new Game Clan, and there is no more Oda.
The difference in thinking here is the difference between Clan Team, and Game Clan.
Clan Teams still win as usual, nothing has changed in that respect. The only thing different is that they change banners, as in the third case above, honoring the Clan Team that is the true Champion.
Loosing one battle more than any other Team makes you subordinate to them in score, even if you win the rest of your Matches, unless they loose to another Team and become equal to you in points. But then they would belong to the victorious Game Clan, and your Team would be head of the Game Clan that they were head of before.
The only thing that really changes is that no one is ever left out, all the way to the end. Being in the same Game Clan they can root for each other and achieve a sense of brotherhood, no matter what happens.
Below is the last of a few ideas on how to display the above, but not necessarily the final one :wink:
https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k57/tomisama/ShogunHeader17.jpg
Qualify as a Swiss Extravaganza?
Classic Battles of course :bow:
OUT4BLOOD
05-07-2011, 16:51
Love the graphic^
well they seem to have fixed classic upgrades soo back to normal mode (classic) hehe
Tomisama
05-10-2011, 17:25
Thanks Jun :grin:
Tomisama
05-13-2011, 12:14
Besides the fact that Classic Battles unit upgrades work now, and three more maps have been added, there were quite a few changes to the unit specs themselves.
The following units were changed.
Oda Yari Ashigaru
Bow ashigaru
Oda Bow ashigaru
Chosokabe Bow ashigaru
Bow Warrior Monks
Chosokabe Bow Warrior Monks
Uesugi Bow Warrior Monks
Matchlock Ashigaru
Oda Matchlock Ashigaru
Bow Cavalry
Takeda Bow Cavalry
Katana Cavalry
Takeda Katana Cavalry
Yari Cavalry
Takeda Yari Cavalry
Fire Projecting Mangonels
Hojo Fire Projecting Mangonels
European Cannons
Hojo Cannons
Fire Rockets
Hojo Fire Rockets
For the details download the PDF, the revisions are in blue.
http://www.filejumbo.com/Download/61907CD73AF6F864
Magyar Khan
05-13-2011, 13:34
and teh army banners colours? why cant CA adress that/
Tomisama
05-14-2011, 14:48
and teh army banners colours? why cant CA adress that/
To me at least the gold (for yours), blue (your allies), and red (your enemies), banner trims are no worse than those of Empire and Napoleon.
That doesn’t mean that the situation is good, just tolerable.
I really don’t expect a change (soon anyway), but having a selectable set of banner colors to chose from would really open Classic up for some same-game-clan big battle fun.
:charge:
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