wealth in TW:S2

[RedKnight]

Attached, find a simple analysis of wealth from provincial buildings (farms, metsuke, and ninja building lines).

This is based ONLY on the wealth involved, and directly related items like, turns to build, cost to build, and the difference in income before and after. It does not take into account the other very important factors in the game such as food produced or consumed, agents that a line makes avilable, province happiness, etc.

In the attached spreadsheet, a short normal Chosokabe game (see the Farms and WealthBuildings tabs) strongly supports the following. However, it should be noted that Chosokabe get more wealth from farms, according to their metadata. Also, data is from late in a game (turn 85) and my Arts may be reducing building prices or increasing farm income slightly.

This is a simple prioritization ordering, based only on wealth returned. All times include the time needed to construct the building, and let's call Rice Paddies level 0 for farms:

1. First, improve all farms to level 1, Improved Irrigation. This pays off in 5 (Very Fertile) to 8 (Barren) turns, and of course, also supplies food.
2. Then improve all Market buildings, all the way from Market to Kabunakama. All pay off in 7 to 12 turns. Watch that you don't run out of food.
3. Make Sake Dens, which pay off in 10 turns.
4. Then improve farms to level 2 (Terrace Farming). This pays off in 10 (Very Fertile) to 21 (Barren) turns.
5. Now improve Sake Dens as high as you can. Gambling Dens and Criminal Syndicates pay off in about 18 turns. However, the Infamous Mizu Shobai District is based on 25% tax, so you have to do some math on the province income to see if it's worth it. (It's best in Gold provinces, ones with high-level Market buildings - check your province info.)
6. Finally, improve all farms to level 3 (Land Consolidation). This pays off in 19 (Very Fertile) to 40 (Barren) turns.

There is some overlap with the farms (Very Fertile is much better than Barren), and I only have data from one Chosokabe (wealthy farms) Normal Short campaign.

A way to remember this is farm a little, market it all, drink a little sake. Farm some more, finish all the sake, then finish farming.

Comments on my simplistic analysis invited.


RK

* Edit *
Updated spreadsheet (thanks, Therother!); added examples for Infamous Mizu Shobai District

[HopAlongBunny]

Thank you for this RedKnight!:bow:

[therother]

Nice work. :bow:


In the attached spreadsheet (why doesn't TW allow xls?)...It does now. Feel free to reattach.

[Tamur]

Wow, that's a lot of great data, very nice. It was enlightening to see how huge the investment is vs return on barren land -- hardly worth the effort.

If only we could boil the lesson down to something as easy to remember as CMYK...

[RedKnight]

Thanks, folks! Glad to hear it's useful... I just updated the spreadsheet a little (see OP). Next campaign I will try to get data from a new game; I think my Arts are slightly affecting some of the values in the spreadsheet, for the better. But then, they probably do the same thing for most players, eventually.

Tamur, it's true that Barren farms take twice as long to amortize their cost versus Very Fertile ones. But that's only looking at the wealth involved. Once you reach Realm Divide, it's really nice to have lots of extra food increasing the growth of every single one of your provinces. Still, you'll want to improve the farms at a given level that have good soil, before you improve the ones with crappy soil.

Honestly though, now that I'm grabbing a new province every turn (after Realm Divide), I can hardly get past "wealth step" #2 (making metsuke buildings) across my kingdom before I run out of money each turn. (On top of all the costs of units, fixing up a new province, etc.) :dizzy2:

I actually only have about 4 provinces producing units - a warhorse province making katana cavalry, a crafts province making bow samurai, a hallowed ground for naginata monks, and a nanban port for matchlocks. Most of the other provinces, I gut everything as soon as I take them, and make metsuke and ninja buildings. If it has 3 slots, I'll also make a temple... but only the temple (since it's the best bang for the buck for chi arts), unless there's some pesky christianity around.

[therother]

Concerning the value for money of the market chain, MCM did quite a bit of work on this in this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?134068-Where-to-build-markets-only-in-fertile-lands&p=2053285446&viewfull=1#post2053285446.

[RedKnight]

Huh, thanks Therother, that's a very interesting thread. Especially message 29 from MCM where he says, never make a Rice Exchange (or higher market building); the building is broken.

Of course, my wealth spreadsheet and "rules" in my OP above, only consider wealth at a superficial level. Now in hindsight I see it's a lot more complicated. Also I didn't take into account the real returns, once taxes are considered.

I will definitely have to think about what MCM and others said in that thread. Hmm.

[Leptomeninges]

Yeah, it's harder to gague the impact of the buildings when you consider the food surplus. I was arguing with some guys the other day about when Land Consolidation becomes a worthwhile investment. Some of it depends on how you intend to play the game. I tend to push fairly quickly and I'm not convinced that in my games the food surplus is worth the return on investment especially when considering the opportunity cost of research as well as conquest you deferred by building your economy rather than pushing. On the other hand, I've never crunched the numbers to see how valuable the food surplus really is.

[RedKnight]

Right. Now that I'm aware of the issue, I don't know if the other thread mentioned the related issue of: if you improve your castle to make a Market (not Rice Exchange), the castle level itself cost another food.

Of course, if you capture a castle that already has slots, well, you can't reduce it, so you may as well make a Market.

Also, I am surprised MCM didn't at least argue for improved markets in your top five wealth towns (with Metsuke installed)...

I am still cogitating this whole issue.

[Reapz]

2. Then improve all Market buildings, all the way from Market to Kabunakama. All pay off in 7 to 12 turns. Watch that you don't run out of food.

I don't think this is possible. After building one Kabunakama I lost the option to build any more. Anybody else got to this stage in their infrastructure development? If there is only one to be built does it matter which of your provinces it is placed in or or is it a straight 1000 bonus regardless of location?

[RedKnight]

Huh, I did not know that, Reapz. I wonder if it applies to Infamous Mizu Shobai District also - that you can only build one. Anyone know?

Note that I withdraw that item #2... Rice Exchange+ looks to be broken and should not be made. See message 6, 7, and 9, above.

[Rothe]

Having done some crunch, it seems that maxing out your top 5 wealth provinces may be worth it (i.e. it sometimes is, other times it is not) , at least since you get some of your wealth up front and if you are looking to turtle a while in 15 provinces (i.e. pre-RD).

If you ignore Metsuke, I agree that you should not build rice exchanges or merchant guilds, but the metsuke tax effect makes it worthwhile for me, unless I am already at over 20 provinces or so.

If you are not sure about the profit, not building rice exchanges is the safer bet...

[RedKnight]

When I have things understood better, I may try to crunch it all

I don't read many threads unless my attention is drawn to them but,

I am trying to work out whether it's worth building up any castle level (in vanilla), since every single one involves more rice, since you're going to take over plenty that are built up. Exception: a small handful that will build your primo troops.

I like TWS2 as a "TW Lite", but I'm wondering if it's a little too lite... just as your economy is strting to have endless dollars, nobody can touch you. Maybe I should play on something more than Normal difficulty. But then I'm only just starting my third game (the first not completed), after 3 weeks.

[guineawolf]

Attached, find a simple analysis of wealth from provincial buildings (farms, metsuke, and ninja building lines).

This is based ONLY on the wealth involved, and directly related items like, turns to build, cost to build, and the difference in income before and after. It does not take into account the other very important factors in the game such as food produced or consumed, agents that a line makes avilable, province happiness, etc.

In the attached spreadsheet, a short normal Chosokabe game (see the Farms and WealthBuildings tabs) strongly supports the following. However, it should be noted that Chosokabe get more wealth from farms, according to their metadata. Also, data is from late in a game (turn 85) and my Arts may be reducing building prices or increasing farm income slightly.

This is a simple prioritization ordering, based only on wealth returned. All times include the time needed to construct the building, and let's call Rice Paddies level 0 for farms:

1. First, improve all farms to level 1, Improved Irrigation. This pays off in 5 (Very Fertile) to 8 (Barren) turns, and of course, also supplies food.
2. Then improve all Market buildings, all the way from Market to Kabunakama. All pay off in 7 to 12 turns. Watch that you don't run out of food.
3. Make Sake Dens, which pay off in 10 turns.
4. Then improve farms to level 2 (Terrace Farming). This pays off in 10 (Very Fertile) to 21 (Barren) turns.
5. Now improve Sake Dens as high as you can. Gambling Dens and Criminal Syndicates pay off in about 18 turns. However, the Infamous Mizu Shobai District is based on 25% tax, so you have to do some math on the province income to see if it's worth it. (It's best in Gold provinces, ones with high-level Market buildings - check your province info.)
6. Finally, improve all farms to level 3 (Land Consolidation). This pays off in 19 (Very Fertile) to 40 (Barren) turns.

There is some overlap with the farms (Very Fertile is much better than Barren), and I only have data from one Chosokabe (wealthy farms) Normal Short campaign.

A way to remember this is farm a little, market it all, drink a little sake. Farm some more, finish all the sake, then finish farming.

Comments on my simplistic analysis invited.


RK

* Edit *
Updated spreadsheet (thanks, Therother!); added examples for Infamous Mizu Shobai District

from my experience,i would suggest to build :
1.sake den first always,why? coz they pay 200 at gambling halls and 350 at criminal syndicates and most importantly they give 2 happiness that means plus 2 public order,
2.then second the level 1 market only,yes! just level 1 market,dun go to rice exchange,coz it cost you 1 unit of food surplus to 1 town growth to all provinces ,each food surplus go to 1 town growth,yes!that means you got 10 food surplus you got 10 town growth,lowest the tax,then you got the highest town growth!you can get beautiful income in the future!!,i always own 100,000 koku income in the late period and 50,000 income in the medium period of campaign,
50,000 koku for oda,that can be upkeep for 220,000 yari ashigaru!!!for ikko,that can be upkeep for 176,000 yari ashigaru,for others clan,that can be upkeep for 147,000 yari ashigaru...

3.build farms,why build farms at the third,coz it can be sabotage by enemy army,it is outside te city!!cannot protect by the walls!!at this period,build to terrace farming,coz land condsolidation are too expensive for us at the starting period!!!

4.then at the starting period build temples for chi art,after chi art are all researched!then demolish the temples,build encampmentssss,yes!save 10% cost to recruitment,and add 10% replenishment!!!if you upgrade them to barracks,then it will be saving 20% cost of recruitment and have 20% replenishment rates,

5.then the others is up to you guys then...save the money for the cheapest!!ASHIGARU!!!,then you can win the campaign in no time!yes! i win 3 normal difficulty campaign in oda,mori,shimazu,all with yari ashigaru,the cheapest! troops in shogun!QUANTITY can counter QUALITY in this shogun2!!!try it !!

if yo must have samurai,then i suggest build them and upgrade them to yari master dojo and mix it with monastary(to own warrior monks!),bow master dojo,sword master school and bajutsu master dojo,why??? coz they can build samurais in 1 turn!,yes! 1 turn instead of 2 turns,the you can recruit huge quantity of samurais in short time!!for defensive policy,this is important!!!!

ok then,this is all!!enjoy!!! i insist!!!