My thoughts after playing for a few days

[ShadeWraith]

Probably just a rehash of what I have read already unfortunately :( First of matchmaking as per a 1000 other posts, its pointless. After a few days play I have been matched with someone of my level once and someone slightly below once, rest of the time its level 8-10's....some people may find it fun but not for me really...kind of like playing chess against someone when you only have 20 pawns :)

I know you work your way up eventually but unlike a lot of FPS where this system is common..they are normally a 30 plus 30 game where the chances are someone on your side has maxed out weapons...on stw2 its one against one so its a rather silly system to use IMO.

Having to redo your army after every battle is also a pain...bit too much micro management for online play...if I wanted to fiddle with unit stats for hours I would play SP.

Apart from the above its good fun. See what I think after another few days...may stick to hosted battles in the future and try to get someone on my level :)


Wraith

[Magyar Khan]

yup i agree... howl wraith..... :)

due a bug is my avatar resetted and i had to start over again as if i was a new player..... versus a experienced level 10 player its almost impossble to win....

esp units like upgraded monks....

even after reaching level 10 imo the whole gamesystem takes away too much attention from teh abttlefield

like babysitting marching missile users, cooldowns, muskets not having line of sight and so on...... imo such a game shoudl emphasize on reading a battle not on clicking vetted units..... a bit too much hassle....

im sure a lot of people enjoy the fiddling u describe but i dont care...... reading battles is much more fun

[AggonyKing]

actually was kinda fun when I couldn't see water on sea battles. (pre-patch 2) I had to guess all the time about the range of my ships, especially the cannon bunes. That was kinda fun :)

I'm sure you can toggle the line of sight off magy somewhere on the prefs script.

[Graphic]

Everything is on point. But once you reach level 7 it becomes worth it. I'm finally having fun.

Just a note though, find someone (preferably a friend who has the game) to help you get vet units in custom battles. I don't know if that's considered cheap or taboo or what, but I don't care. Its absolutely necessary. You will never get experience for your units when they get slaughtered by other players' vet 9 units, and nine times out of ten the unit selected for promotion to vet status is some crap loan sword or something.

[ShadeWraith]

Hi Magy...long time no see :) If your struggling then there is no hope for me...in some weird way it makes me feel less useless though :) Just had a really close battle..like the old days, so if your evenly matched then the gameplay is great. Im sure when you get to the higher levels it becomes better Im just curious as to why the developers adopted this kind of FPS shooter model of unit unlocks for a strategy game...its a very steep learning curve for new players...even when its a level playing field :)

I've not got a buddy to 'level up' with, seems a bit wrong to me...but seeing as the alternative is regular rape by higher level players and their units I can see the attraction in it :) I'll just keep plugging away...at least Im up to lvl 5 now, the occassional victory keeps my enthusiasm going :)

Wraith

[Graphic]

It would seem wrong to me if matchmaking was nonexistent. That's not my fault. So I decided I wasn't going to lose 80% of my games to a broken system because I can't get anything above 2 or 3 vet. I paid $50, I think I'm entitled to have some fun.

[ShadeWraith]

Graphic, apologies... maybe I didnt make it clear in my earlier post Im not judging anyone who 'levels up' its up to the individual what they do or dont do :) Out of curiosity though if a friend was helping you level up by allowing you to beat them wouldnt that affect their win/loss ratio etc? The essence of MP TW is your ability to use your units to out manouvre and out think an opponent the fact that often opponents start with a huge unit advantage seems to render that part of the game a bit obsolete, last few online games I had, I hosted with a lvl five max warning on them..seems to work and I have been having some good battles...even managing to win the odd one or two :)


Wraith

[Graphic]

Don't worry, I was raging against the system (or lack thereof) that CA put into place, not you.

[Kocmoc]

I said this before the release already. It was obvious, that we gonna face this problem at some point. New player have a hard time and many of them wont stay till lvl 10, since they get their arse kicked half all the time.

Retainer, vets, clanskills, good gens… all those things makes a huge difference. Actual the setup is more important than the playskills.
If you lack vets, than you hardly can outplay anything. Try to run into some monkguns with full upgrades or try to win something, if you face 1-3 monk archer with 200 range.

Its obvious, you cant win (unless you face some real bad player).

Just look at the amount of time you need to get some vets. The good upgrades costs you 20 tokens, the normal upgrades costs 10.
You need about 4 monk bows to be able to field 2 each battle. Monk guns need 2 upgrades (rapid shot and range), this means 20 tokens each gun, I have 4 so I can field 2 each game. Now Im in the good position, that I win most of my games, still, I can maybe gain 20 tokens a night. A new player who lose a lot more, will need weeks to get some proper vets.

We did close the door. New people hardly will join us from now on. There has to be solutions.
The vet system itself is a nice idea, but it has to change to a more newcomer friendly system.

I suggested to give everyone who reach a new lvl 10 new tokens, reaching lvl 10 maybe 100, so those guys can at least bring some basic vets to stand a chance.


If you got the vets, than the game is very nice and a lot of fun, but for new player its a nightmare.
I like the game, but I clearly see the problem coming up here. Its a lot more about what setup you got, than actual playing and moving on the battlefield.

[Nowake]

Oi there Wraith
I do not normally post to advise players on gameplay, I find that no matter how you write, you end up in a "do-it-like-me" condescending post. However, since the rest seem to agree with you, I thought a different experience is worth describing.
Basically, I began playing multiplayer last tuesday, when I got my copy, straight after the patch. My plan from the beginning was:
- get to know the units (I had played SP, but I had hardly used half of them)
- get to know the quality of the players
- get to know the maps
So I dodged match made encounters, and focused on Hosting myself. I chose Aki as my map of choice, because I thought, it's new for both me and my opponent. And this is how it went.
From rank one to rank six I only played Small 1v1s. From rank six to rank seven I played one Medium 1v1 and one Small 1v1 (resting my veterans for Medium). And now, advancing from seven to eight, I began playing Large 1v1s intercalated with Small 1v1s (for the same reason as above). That's it for now, I only played during two-three evenings. But once I reach rank eight, I will switch from Aki and play three-four other popular maps, all on Large.

Now, I must say that I never met a rank ten, but I routed plenty of rank eight, rank nine players since I was only rank two or three so I would say that, as long as you "read" those encounters properly, anything but a rank ten (since I never met them) is totally accessible. My tally resides at more than 50 victories opposed to 6 defeats or so, thus I probably have not simply struck out lucky. To give you my opinions on what I believe I am doing differently:
- Replays. I saved almost all my replays. A huge factor in the battle is played by the charge. Forcing your opponent to halt/delay his own charges and making sure your own troops go in without being distracted is the gist of it. Being able to watch it all again gives you quite a bit of info even from your own easy wins. Don't get me wrong, I don't watch them all, but quite a few.
- I played Small until rank six. Veterans do not count too much in Small, unless they're Ashigaru veterans, which everyone seems to neglect. Small thus means you outnumber and outmaneuver your star-spangled veteran heavy opponents easily.
- I play to my clan strengths. I went for a Sword clan, from the way players seem to relate to it in posts, I think it is one of the least understood clans for now. So I play with Loan Swords a lot. I use the three to melee defence for Swords retainer obtainable early on, the clan specialization one (I made a clan for myself around rank six for it) the two to attack for Swords and the -10% cost for Ashigaru one aswell. That allows me to always outnumber the Swords or Monks of my opponent, while actually my own units can fight on an equal footing with his elite. I only upgrade my Loan Swords to level three by the by, that is, two skill points into Melee attack and one skill point into Melee defense. I do not go further so as to not increase their cost unnecesarrily.
- I play with Ashigaru. Truly, my infantry is all Ashigaru, Yari and Loan Swords. There's absolutely no need to bring anything else, Loan Swords rip appart or at least stand their ground against other infantry when upgraded as described above. And, by always outnumbering my opponent, I can maneuvre, while the adversary cannot and is pinned down.
- I play to break the center. Indeed, if there is one way to trick these chaps is by playing for the center. Almost everyone slams some Spears and Katana Samurai plus/or Monks in their center, labels it decent and focuses on those brilliant Cavalry flanking maneuvers they heard of on the History Channel. They do not realize how much they limit themselves by focusing their creative maneuvres only on flanks, because those are so easy to counter or delay with Yari Ashigaru. When they finally charge in, their own center has been hacked by my Loan Swords; my cheap Swords, supported by proper retainers, are defeating their expensive Katana Samurais one on one, and they simply wear out Monks without that many casualties.
- Cavalry use. I again use it a bit differently. First of all, Cavalry is really fast, so even if the only forests where you can hide Cavalry in the beginning are really a lot behind the position you ocupy with your infantry, you should not approach with them until you engage or otherwise distract your opponent. Also, I see almost no one attacks the center with cavalry. But the most important thing for me is for my Loan Sword charge to have maximum impact. So I charge with Cavalry to cover that infantry attack, force the enemy missile troops to retreat after just one salvo and break the counter-charge of the enemy infantry somewhat. The cavalry I use to acomplish that is either Katana or... Bow Cavalry. No one suspects Bow Cavalry. You skirmish a lot with it and then you end up, almost as if by chance, exchanging arrows face to face with the enemy missile troops from in front of your infantry. Players assume that, since you're low on archers, you use them to engage in the arrow exchange which is so common. But at the right moment, you charge that Bow Cavalry straight into his archers. It doesn't mean everyone will be surprised by it, and players do retreat in time, but it matters not; you still have some sort of "boulders" rolling into the enemy line and your Loan Swords won't be made into pin-cushions during the initial charge. Even when muskets rout your Bow Cavalry, they were still a human shield for more than half the distance and they wouldn't have been of crucial use anymore anyway. Try to alternate. In one Small I can use one Katana Cavalry and one Bow Cavalry, in the next, I will use one Yari Cavalry and two Light Cavalry etc. If I am low on Cavalry, I use them as shock troops, one squad in one long line smashing into two or three of his units at once, followed four-five seconds later by the Loan Swords while the Ashigaru cover the flanks and rear. If I have more than him, I flank, he won't be able to cover against me with his own.

There are probably a few things which deserve more nuance, yet I always seem to write more than I intended so I should stop now. Still, what I describe works and I am sure it works even if you vary from my setup, as long as the idea behind it is properly exploited.
Of course, there's a lot to learn and there are counters to everything. However, out of my six or so loses, one was lost because, being my first battle, I forgot to select Small when I hosted, so I went with 5000 koku against 10000 (funnily enough, I did the same in my second battle, but I was lucky to win by killing the enemy general) and five of them were lost due to me being surprised by the performance of certain units, namely Great Guard and Yari Cavalry. For three of those I blame Kocmoc by the by har har! :yes: I read his blog and posts in the MP section and totally mismatched my use of troops in a few battles. He was raving about melee generals being able to take on Yari Cavalry for example; well, I sent an Inspired melee General with Bansai up against a wounded thirty men or so Yari Cavalry (playing on Medium unit size) and lost my taisho's head in a snap. I also thought Yari Cavalry, being The anti-cavalry Cavalry unit so to speak, would be able to take on Great Guards if properly supported. So in this one battle I charge a Great Guard with a Yari Cavalry and from behind I attack with my general (a melee general with No penalty against spears already) and despite using Bansai and Inspire again, that Great Guard destroys both units, take's my general's head and remains with around twenty or so men out of forty. The rest were also just losing my general by risking too much, or simply not realising that sandwiching a Great Guard between two Yari Ashigaru units does not guarantee victory. Yeah, I really dislike that unit.
Anyway, that's how it went for me and again, I hope I am not coming across as someone who wants to dismiss your account, just, with the right steps you can make the rank difference irelevant. If you would not mind, I'd send you a PM with my Steam details by the by and maybe we can level some veterans together, I never could advance my Katana Cavalry no matter how much I sent them in the thick of it. Plus, I'd love to actually know anyone in that foyer, most players are very impolite, in general no one talks at all pre, during or post battles and very rarely they reply even to GL HF. It's as if they're savages; if they do write anything, it's usualy some negative comment when they lose.

[Zarobien]

Hang in there guys, theres light at the end of the tunnel. I'm a one man clan there, I have no teachers or backups...

I started by getting beaten 10 times in a row. Little by little I came closer to winning and one day it was more 50/50 change. I even beat one 10 star yesterday as a 6 star. So it's not that impossible; you just need to keep eye on the ball and hope your opponent drops it. And those 10 stars; they are used to the fact that they have elites that dont fail them. Even a good player makes error of judgement sometimes.

When I play; I lose a lot but after that I ask myself; why did I lose and how could I have won. When this goes on and on I learn to avoid certain mistakes and look for certain moves. It is this that makes the tide turn for me; not the elite units.

When it comes to elites; I started humble. My first 16 elites where all ashigaru units. I could have gotten 32 of those easy. I did this all in matchmade battles by manuvering certain units so that they last the fight and get lots of kills.

4 x bow ashigaru
4 x yari ashigaru
4 x light cavarly
4 x loansword ashigaru
- These where the ones I started with; I still play them every other battle; I have samurai army for every other. (It's still on the builds.)

If you see me online; I'm glad if I can help you out. I dont mind my lose ratio. GG means good game, those are the ones i'm after.

When you get matched with Great Guards or such. Thats CA's loss really. rock paper cissors tank. Dont get disheartened by those.

[CanCritter]

never say die..hang in there

[AMP]

Once you got alot of units unlocked there shouldn't be anything to complain about really because remember you both have the same starting funds (trading post -5% unit cost and the ashi retainer -10% unit cost is almost a must). No units or skills are really that OP most are spot on worth their cost.

If you complain about having to remake your army then this game isn't for you really. Building your army and messing with skills and going out onto the field with them into battle is one of the things that makes TW enjoyable. If you consider that to much micromanagement then RTS gaming isn't for you and this game compared to some other RTS games is really nothing in terms of complexity & micro.

And Rank doesn't = skill, so some of those lvl 10 guys you should be able to beat. Most of the people that play online are really just really horrible.

[East East Wild]

I don't know what most people here are complaining about this Avatar lvl system. Everyone all started from lvl 1 and we all had our arse handled to us by higher lvls and lvl 10s but we still keep coming back for more because its still fun.

Everyday, when I start up my com and play mp shogun 2, I keep seeing new players and alot of them are now at least lvl 7 or 9.

I started playing TW MP games since RTW and this is by far the most successful TW MP series and almost nobody bothered to play classic mode.

All that customising from veteran skills to redesigning an army is all part of the fun. As for micro management, definately less than most RTS.