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View Full Version : Problem Factions/Rebels... A Solution??



ahowl11
08-09-2011, 00:17
Hey everyone,

I have been thinking alot lately.. Reading articles on how RTW is historically inaccurate, there has been one topic that has really annoyed me.. The fact that these factions:

Greek Cities
Gaul
Germania
Scythia
Britannia
Iberia
Numidia
and Now Illyria

NEVER EXISTED.. there never was a "Gaul kingdom" they were a bunch of tribes, clans, small kingdoms, loose alliances, and confederations..
Same can go for the other Barbarian factions listed above..

Also the "Greek Cities" never had a kingdom.. they were all independant or in leagues..

At first my thought was "oh well, we have to play with the cards dealt to us"...

BUT THEN today, while I was on a trip I was thinking..

EB and RS2 have a great "rebel" setup.. and I thought why can't we??

So check this out.. Instead of giving rebel settlements a huge stack of units we need to make them their own "sub-faction" similar to EB and RS2.

Now the problem here is on the strat map they would still look like rebels.. But, we separate them.. Brigands will be brigands, Pirates will be Pirates.. But you wont see a Roxolani army merge with a Bithynian army.. Instead you would see them treat each other as a completely different faction..

So all of the little kingdoms, city states and tribes will essentially be on their own..
We have:

Italian Rebel Culture with the Pitchfork Symbol
Barbarian Rebel Culture with the Three Connected Loops Symbol
The Hellenic Rebel Culture with The Pegasus symbol
The Eastern Rebel Culture with The Palm/Eye Symbol
The North African Rebel Culture with The Elephant
Another Barbarian Culture?? The Bug Symbol

So we have room to work with.. but now read carefully..

RS2 Did away with the Britons and essentially made them into another rebel faction..

Why cant we do that? If we can do that with the factions listed above it would be amazing.. making them all sub factions of an ultimate culture.. then we wouldn't have a unified Gaul or Greek Cities but instead the different Kingdoms and Tribes in reality..

I know we can do it.. It will take heavy scripting and coding but it can be done..
There are many possibilities with this idea... The Galatians, Pergamum, Parthia, Hasmonean Kingdom, and others can suddenly appear and be there own independant factions..

I believe it can be done.. It would work great with the AOR system and with the goal of unifying the germans, gauls etc..

We can also build off this with adding mini campaigns.. now wouldnt that be something?? Guys please dont write it off as it simply cant be done.. if there is proof of this idea being impossible i understand but from what i've seen this is possible.. it will just take hard work..

Please give me your thoughts/ideas on this

Skull
08-09-2011, 10:27
Good Idea,but it shoud be done in beta/final relese...

Macedon1an
08-09-2011, 12:41
I remind you that this is a game mod not a historical project.. so don't forget that the gameplay is most important... With losing playable barbarian factions we lose a lot, and playing a rebel campaign is the hardest thing in RTW (believe me... I tried it).
So why don't we instead make the factions represent one major tribe from them... Example: Gaul > Aedui or Arverni , The Britons could be the Iceni or Brigantes, Germania would be the Suebi, GCS > Sparta, Iberia > Lusitanians , as for Numidia they were a kingdom. We would give them 1-2 settlements, and the other towns will be rebel each acting as a different tribe.This is what EB made. Also, this opens the possibility of using a big map.

Daco-Roman
08-09-2011, 14:37
basicly what macedonian said

Skull
08-09-2011, 14:46
I remind you that this is a game mod not a historical project.. so don't forget that the gameplay is most important... With losing playable barbarian factions we lose a lot, and playing a rebel campaign is the hardest thing in RTW (believe me... I tried it).
So why don't we instead make the factions represent one major tribe from them... Example: Gaul > Aedui or Arverni , The Britons could be the Iceni or Brigantes, Germania would be the Suebi, GCS > Sparta, Iberia > Lusitanians , as for Numidia they were a kingdom. We would give them 1-2 settlements, and the other towns will be rebel each acting as a different tribe.This is what EB made. Also, this opens the possibility of using a big map.

Yeah...that is the thing...
But please don't make the map huge....please....:no:
And yeah...rebel camping is a pain in the butt,but once I played one for a mod called eastern camping and it was realy fun...:yes:
And realy funny when a bandit army swaped near egyptian capital,and then I besuged and played the battle and killed the egyptian king....
Egypt lost and I got all arabia and egypt...but the place soon got steamrolled by seleucids...:book:

ahowl11
08-09-2011, 17:30
well havnt you guys seen the multiple campaigns like in XGM? If you were gonna be the romans then my idea above should go into effect.. If you wanted to be barbarian.. a different campaign would be available.. you could start as any tribe/kingdom that you wanted and every other tribe and kingdom would be rebels.. we could script in a goal for unifying everybody:) i should of included this above haha

Macedon1an
08-09-2011, 18:04
We could have different provincial campaigns like unite the Gallic tribes, but there should be a main imperial campaign where you can take the barbarians into Egypt or the Numidians in Britain... and stuff like unite the German tribes are easily made in the Imperial Campaign as a victory condition for short campaigns.

ahowl11
08-09-2011, 19:22
thats true i like that

medievaldude
08-10-2011, 18:03
Illyria were loosely divided mulitple groups/nations or other words tribes. they were only two big enough tribes/nations that can be represented as a faction :S but Eleutheroi is fine :laugh4: as rome demands it :book:


Numidia

jsut call them the tribes of Massylii :D

eo9o
08-10-2011, 18:07
I would like to play a EB game with a huge map. Imagine the possibility to have borders with Han's dynasty? Or confort then in the battlefield!?

Skull
08-10-2011, 19:48
I would like to play a EB game with a huge map. Imagine the possibility to have borders with Han's dynasty? Or confort then in the battlefield!?
Yeah that's rather awsome,but VERY hard to do...
There is a mod like that...but it's still to be made...

Lord President of Gallifrey
08-11-2011, 04:05
Provincial Campaigns would be a good idea. (Caesar's conquest of Gaul comes to mind, unless this campaign has been done before?)

ahowl11
08-11-2011, 06:21
this mod wont expand past vanilla map for now.. and yes im really thinking about the provincial campaigns as they add alot of history and its fun

Skull
08-11-2011, 10:45
Yeah,provincial campings are great
My suggestions:
- Caesar in Gaul
- The Die is cast {baisicly the scriptles prologe camping that has a large roman army against a rebel Italy{Pompe}
- Germanic expedition {Varus in Germania}
- Warrior Queen {buddica's rebelion}
- Something else...

Macedon1an
08-11-2011, 11:42
Yeah,provincial campings are great
My suggestions:
- Caesar in Gaul
- The Die is cast {baisicly the scriptles prologe camping that has a large roman army against a rebel Italy{Pompe}
- Germanic expedition {Varus in Germania}
- Warrior Queen {buddica's rebelion}
- Something else...

-Trajan in Dacia
-Hannibal in Italy
-Cimbri Invasion (we can use the horde option for this)

And if we can get a map of sub-Saharan east Africa:

-The Source of the Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_expedition_to_Ethiopia) - This would be a lot of fun...

ahowl11
08-11-2011, 18:02
there is alot we can do guys.. lets wait to implement most of these until "after" beta as we have alot of work to do

Skull
08-11-2011, 18:25
there is alot we can do guys.. lets wait to implement most of these until "after" beta as we have alot of work to do
Yeah...
But we shoud definetly have someone to cut the map...
I hate "Provincial Campings" that have the same map as Imperial,but only some diffirent ownerships...:no:

Lord President of Gallifrey
08-11-2011, 19:13
For representing Independent Kingdoms, I would (for now) agree with Macedonian's idea of smaller tribes should be powerful rebels.

I think your onto something though Ahowl, maybe if we have the Celtic/Barbarian/Hellenic rebel Culture in conjunction with regular factions we wil have our answer.

ahowl11
08-11-2011, 19:55
we will have to really experiment with it

Magneto
08-14-2011, 07:05
You could try to give the shadowing/shadowed_by ability to some of the barbarian factions. Like:


faction gauls, religious smith
shadowed_by germans
denari 5000
...
faction germans, balanced mao
shadowing gauls
denari 5000


Basically, If a gaul army revolts, it won´t be a rebel one, it will be a german one, if germany isn´t extinct.

ahowl11
08-14-2011, 07:15
thats strange... that would be weird haha

Magneto
08-14-2011, 07:27
thats strange... that would be weird haha
Why?

ahowl11
08-14-2011, 08:50
like why would you have germans replace gauls, in a rebellion?

Magneto
08-14-2011, 09:18
like why would you have germans replace gauls, in a rebellion?
That was just an example. And I think it would be quite logical: The army of one tribe changes his allegiances, because they think the other bunch of tribes got more strength and is more reliable. You could edit the text of the barbarian event of a rebellion to something that would explain it to the player, like:

"This Tribes stupid leaders betrayed us, to join a bunch of weak tribes! Those fools think we wouldn´t exakt revenge upon them!"

That would make a more dynamic tribe system.
You could also script a few things, like the departure of the Helvetii from their lands into gaul. I don´t think that would be very hard. You spawn an army of rebels with adequate units and leaders and send them per script to a city in gaul. The army will walk to this city, and besiege it. Of course, they can be attacked and exterminated before by the player or gaul ai. Some things like that would make a dynamic tribe system.

ahowl11
08-14-2011, 17:37
thats very interesting.. i like it.. do you have any modding skills?

Magneto
08-14-2011, 19:53
thats very interesting.. i like it.. do you have any modding skills?
I´m Primo. I could do the scripting.

Skull
08-14-2011, 20:04
That was just an example. And I think it would be quite logical: The army of one tribe changes his allegiances, because they think the other bunch of tribes got more strength and is more reliable. You could edit the text of the barbarian event of a rebellion to something that would explain it to the player, like:

"This Tribes stupid leaders betrayed us, to join a bunch of weak tribes! Those fools think we wouldn´t exakt revenge upon them!"

That would make a more dynamic tribe system.
You could also script a few things, like the departure of the Helvetii from their lands into gaul. I don´t think that would be very hard. You spawn an army of rebels with adequate units and leaders and send them per script to a city in gaul. The army will walk to this city, and besiege it. Of course, they can be attacked and exterminated before by the player or gaul ai. Some things like that would make a dynamic tribe system.
Sounds nice but will it slow the camping down?:-/

Magneto
08-14-2011, 20:14
Sounds nice but will it slow the camping down?:-/
Do you mean the expanding of the "barbarians"? Of course it will. But this is quite logical (and historically): A Nation never conquered europe in a few years. And it is not like you can´t do something like that for the other factions, too. You can also add in more historic events (and isn´t this mod called HISTORICAL rome total war?)

Skull
08-14-2011, 20:23
Do you mean the expanding of the "barbarians"? Of course it will. But this is quite logical (and historically): A Nation never conquered europe in a few years. And it is not like you can´t do something like that for the other factions, too. You can also add in more historic events (and isn´t this mod called HISTORICAL rome total war?)
I did not ment in gametime,I ment Lag.

Magneto
08-14-2011, 20:38
I did not ment in gametime,I ment Lag.
Of course not. If a few simple scripted armys would slow the game down, none Mod which is graphically changing the game would exist.
But if that would be your only problem :)

Lord President of Gallifrey
08-14-2011, 21:02
The scripted armies idea for people like Spartacus would be a good idea, but for the migration of tribes maybe we could implement the Horde system from Barbarian Invasion.

Magneto
08-14-2011, 21:13
The scripted armies idea for people like Spartacus would be a good idea, but for the migration of tribes maybe we could implement the Horde system from Barbarian Invasion.
Every horde is a normal faction, and uses a normal faction slot. There are just 20 (+1 for rebels) and they are all already used.

Lord President of Gallifrey
08-14-2011, 21:24
Every horde is a normal faction, and uses a normal faction slot. There are just 20 (+1 for rebels) and they are all already used.

I'm not sure why the horde ability would use a faction slot

But if a modder says it won't work, then it won't

Is there a limit to the amount of scripted armies?

Magneto
08-14-2011, 21:28
I'm not sure why the horde ability would use a faction slot

But if a modder says it won't work, then it won't

Is there a limit to the amount of scripted armies?
Well, I interpreted it as if you want to add a new faction as a horde. Sorry. But I am not sure If you can make the horde ability in rtw. I´ll look into that tomorow.
And no, there is no limit to scripted armys. Within reason, of course. If you would spawn full stacks all over the place at the same time, the game could get a bit laggy (and the turn very long)

Lord President of Gallifrey
08-14-2011, 21:41
Well, I interpreted it as if you want to add a new faction as a horde. Sorry. But I am not sure If you can make the horde ability in rtw. I´ll look into that tomorow.
And no, there is no limit to scripted armys. Within reason, of course. If you would spawn full stacks all over the place at the same time, the game could get a bit laggy (and the turn very long)

No prob.

Maybe we should compile a list of armies we should recreate with scripting/hording.

ahowl11
08-14-2011, 21:50
i like that idea

Macedon1an
08-16-2011, 11:59
You can make hordes in RTW if you run the game with the BI.exe ... Then we can also have legions being randomly named with the legionary_name attribute and we can have Shield Wall for barbarians !

ahowl11
08-16-2011, 18:32
but how do we run it with bi exe?

Macedon1an
08-16-2011, 18:54
If we make the mod modfoldered we can start it trough the Bi exe with the -mod: switchline.

ahowl11
08-16-2011, 19:56
well all of my work is based on a copy of rtw exe.. last time i modfoldered the whole mod got screwy

Skull
08-16-2011, 21:24
well all of my work is based on a copy of rtw exe.. last time i modfoldered the whole mod got screwy
So...total convension???:no:

Macedon1an
08-17-2011, 00:56
Then we will add this switchline at the end of a BI shortcut : -mod:Data (worked for me).

ahowl11
08-17-2011, 04:14
we can try it!

Macedon1an
08-17-2011, 14:34
So... I ran RTW with the BI exe using -mod:Data and made named legions and shieldwall
191319141915
But custom battles and quick battles don't work and I can't start a campaign with the Senate...So that is a big problem...

Fortunately, I found out that named legions are possible in RTW without BI.exe

Skull
08-17-2011, 14:47
Fortunately, I found out that named legions are possible in RTW without BI.exe
How?:D

Macedon1an
08-17-2011, 14:55
How?:D

Here is the tutorial: Part 1 (http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/sreply/558976/Naming-legions) and Part 2 (http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/sreply/558987/Naming-legions)

Magneto
08-17-2011, 15:06
Here is the tutorial: Part 1 (http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/sreply/558976/Naming-legions) and Part 2 (http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/sreply/558987/Naming-legions)
I have BI, but never played it, so I have to ask:
What makes the difference to have a named legion? That you just can recruit them in 1 Settlement - for example, Legio 6 in Segesta? That would throw the vanilla balancing completely away - Vanilla is balanced for 4 roman factions; rather bad, as Romans always take the maps quickly, but still. Having one Roman faction, which has recruitment limitations, Is just the other extreme - Rome would be wiped out like it is nothing.

Macedon1an
08-17-2011, 15:16
I have BI, but never played it, so I have to ask:
What makes the difference to have a named legion? That you just can recruit them in 1 Settlement - for example, Legio 6 in Segesta? That would throw the vanilla balancing completely away - Vanilla is balanced for 4 roman factions; rather bad, as Romans always take the maps quickly, but still. Having one Roman faction, which has recruitment limitations, Is just the other extreme - Rome would be wiped out like it is nothing.

The difference in a named legion and a standard legion is....the name... Its the same unit in Britania and in Italy , no different stats, just gives it a name based on where it is recruited like Legio V Britanica or Legio III Italica

Magneto
08-17-2011, 15:22
The difference in a named legion and a standard legion is....the name... Its the same unit in Britania and in Italy , no different stats, just gives it a name based on where it is recruited like Legio V Britanica or Legio III Italica
Ah. The Tutorial didn´t want to load, but I´ve looked at it now. The only mod I played with named legions till now made for every Legion another Unit, so you couldn´t recruit/retrain them in any other settlement. Can you do retrain those Legions in other settlements?

Macedon1an
08-17-2011, 15:28
Can you do retrain those Legions in other settlements?

Yes... We just need to make Legionary first cohort recruitable in every settlement not just Rome.

Magneto
08-17-2011, 15:31
Yes... We just need to make Legionary first cohort recruitable in every settlement not just Rome.
Is this a first cohort only feature?

Skull
08-17-2011, 15:44
Yes... We just need to make Legionary first cohort recruitable in every settlement not just Rome.
No.
I say just in some realy important regions,like Brittania,Germania Superior,Athens,every region in italy,Charthage...

Alos thanks for the tutorial,I realy appriciate it :yes:


Is this a first cohort only feature?
Nope.
You can have this legions features given to barbarian pesents if you whant....

I have BI, but never played it
Why?It's awsome :yes:

Macedon1an
08-17-2011, 15:47
Is this a first cohort only feature?
No. You can add this to every unit in the game, but its best used on first cohorts.

No.
I say just in some realy important regions,like Brittania,Germania Superior,Athens,every region in italy,Charthage...
Agree!

Magneto
08-17-2011, 15:54
No.
I say just in some realy important regions,like Brittania,Germania Superior,Athens,every region in italy,Charthage...

Alos thanks for the tutorial,I realy appriciate it :yes:


Nope.
You can have this legions features given to barbarian pesents if you whant....

Why?It's awsome :yes:
Well, I have it for 2 days and this 2 days I was occupied with HRTW.

But now I understand how it works. How is it displayed ingame?

Skull
08-17-2011, 16:00
Well, I have it for 2 days and this 2 days I was occupied with HRTW.

But now I understand how it works. How is it displayed ingame?

Okay...

See,when you recrute a unit with named legion attribute,the unit will be named by the name of the "Legion" entery in descr regions,for example,if you reicrut a firts cohort in rome,it will be caled Legio {Legion enetery} I.
If you reicrute another first cohort,it will be called Legio {Legion entery} II,Next one III,next IV and so on...

Also,when you get time to play BI,play as Saxons,AXES RULE :knight:

Magneto
08-17-2011, 16:08
Okay...

See,when you recrute a unit with named legion attribute,the unit will be named by the name of the "Legion" entery in descr regions,for example,if you reicrut a firts cohort in rome,it will be caled Legio {Legion enetery} I.
If you reicrute another first cohort,it will be called Legio {Legion entery} II,Next one III,next IV and so on...

Also,when you get time to play BI,play as Saxons,AXES RULE :knight:
Ok. So, if I recruit a first cohort in Rome, and have it the whole rest of the game stay in Londinium, and retrain it there, its still the Rome Legion? Sounds very logical.

Skull
08-17-2011, 16:15
Ok. So, if I recruit a first cohort in Rome, and have it the whole rest of the game stay in Londinium, and retrain it there, its still the Rome Legion? Sounds very logical.
I don't know.
I don't play with Rome in BI.:yes:

ahowl11
08-18-2011, 01:13
i like running the mod on the bi exe... i like all the features of bi.. also it doesnt take anything away from rtw exe does it? like phalanxes and testudo?

Magneto
08-18-2011, 07:43
i like running the mod on the bi exe... i like all the features of bi.. also it doesnt take anything away from rtw exe does it? like phalanxes and testudo?
I´m pretty sure that not. However, if we make it running on bi exe, we should make it that way that it is running on rtw with Optional running on bi exe.

ahowl11
08-18-2011, 08:02
explain?

Magneto
08-18-2011, 08:08
explain?
So, we make the Mod now as for normal RTW. If I add the Shieldwall, and Can_Swim Attributes in the edu, in normal RTW doesn´t happen a thing, but if you use it on BI.exe, those Features are implented. It´s just that I want to Have RTW as a base, because everyone here must have RTW, but not everyone BI.

ahowl11
08-18-2011, 09:09
i see

Magneto
08-19-2011, 15:14
1959
I have just let the ai play 40 turns in the game, using the -ai modline switch. Note: Macedon is destroyed. Scythia is almost destroyed, and will definitly won´t conquer anything anymore. The scipii are destroyed, Germany got a quarter of greece (yay, Germans rule!!!) What you can´t see on the map: Thrace is attacked by lots of stacks of the Senate, more lots of stacks of the greek cities, and tons of stacks of germany - It is wonder they have survived 40 rounds. Dacia too is destroyed. Parthia got just 1 settlement left.
Britannia does nothing.

I used my unit files, so the Units used by the factions are done, even if some miss a nice Texture/UI Card.

I propose we do something about the balancing. :yes:

Macedon1an
08-19-2011, 15:27
Oh nooooooooo !!!!! My country is destroyed !!!! :bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:
Sword in hand men ! Its time for a rebellion !!! :charge::charge:

Magneto
08-19-2011, 15:33
Oh nooooooooo !!!!! My country is destroyed !!!! :bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:
Sword in hand men ! Its time for a rebellion !!! :charge::charge:
Yes. By my Country! Your Rebellion will be crushed! :yes:

Skull
08-19-2011, 17:21
1959
I have just let the ai play 40 turns in the game, using the -ai modline switch. Note: Macedon is destroyed. Scythia is almost destroyed, and will definitly won´t conquer anything anymore. The scipii are destroyed, Germany got a quarter of greece (yay, Germans rule!!!) What you can´t see on the map: Thrace is attacked by lots of stacks of the Senate, more lots of stacks of the greek cities, and tons of stacks of germany - It is wonder they have survived 40 rounds. Dacia too is destroyed. Parthia got just 1 settlement left.
Britannia does nothing.

I used my unit files, so the Units used by the factions are done, even if some miss a nice Texture/UI Card.

I propose we do something about the balancing. :yes:
LONG LIVE TRACE
They survive,eaven if they get constantly attacked by ther more powerful enemyes :knight:
I will do some thracian units...we can't let these evil Germans take all,they MUST DIE :evil3::leer::evil3::

HEAVY CAVALRY CHARGEEEEE :turtle:
PHALANKSES,HOLD THE LINE :boink:
INFANTRY,CHARGGEEEEEE :pirate2:
CATAPULTS,FIREEEEE :viking::wall::soapbox: :surrender: :flame: :horn:
CAVALRY,CHARGEEEEEEEE :charge:
And finaly:The searce{t/d} Thracian wepon - THE G{R}EEK FIRETHROWER :creep::scared: :flame::flame::flame::flame::flame::hmg:

Magneto
08-19-2011, 17:44
we can't let these evil Germans take all,they MUST DIE :evil3::leer::evil3::

You do know that I´m german, do you?

Skull
08-19-2011, 21:34
You do know that I´m german, do you?
I ment germanics.:P
No offense realy.

Magneto
08-19-2011, 21:49
I ment germanics.:P
No offense realy.
None taken. Just wanted to see how you´d react. :yes:

Skull
08-19-2011, 22:17
None taken. Just wanted to see how you´d react. :yes:
Okay.:S

ahowl11
08-20-2011, 00:56
yeah we need to change the faction attitudes to make the game more balanced

Magneto
08-20-2011, 16:06
This thought just crossed my mind:

If we are going to implent AOR in the beta, we could implent it for rebels, too - It would be worth a try, and then the Rebels would use sub-faction-correct troops all the time. If we then give them Heavy Starting Forces, our problem might be solved:

In descr_strat assign rebels the cities with correct overworked subfactions.
Overworking descr_rebel_factions in order to have them spawn correctly.
AI recruits automatically the right troops through AOR.

Not that complicated.
Scripting is also always a possibility - Apart from attacking each other everythings doable.

Skull
08-20-2011, 16:12
This thought just crossed my mind:

If we are going to implent AOR in the beta, we could implent it for rebels, too - It would be worth a try, and then the Rebels would use sub-faction-correct troops all the time. If we then give them Heavy Starting Forces, our problem might be solved:

In descr_strat assign rebels the cities with correct overworked subfactions.
Overworking descr_rebel_factions in order to have them spawn correctly.
AI recruits automatically the right troops through AOR.

Not that complicated.
Scripting is also always a possibility - Apart from attacking each other everythings doable.
Nice Idea,I like it! :yes:

ahowl11
08-20-2011, 21:45
we can try it