PDA

View Full Version : Faction Overview: The Republic Of Carthage



ahowl11
11-19-2011, 08:45
Unit Roster
Town Militia
Iberian Infantry
Scutarii Infantry*
Carthaginian Infantry*
Libyan Spearmen
Poeni Infantry
Skirmishers
Slingers
Archers*
Poeni Archers*
Round Shield Cavalry
Long Shield Cavalry
Sacred Band Cavalry
Elephants
War Elephants
Armoured Elephants
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard

*New Units

Ok, we can see here that Carthage does not have a lot of their "own" units. We see units from Africa and Spain. My question is, did they have many units that were Punic? Or did they draw most of their troops from the Libyan population? Also, I think they should have some native units from Sicily, and some native barbarian troops.

I'm probably going to get rid of the "Sacred Band Cavalry" unit because there was not even a Carthaginian Sacred Band Unit in 280 B.C.

After researching mods I have decided that Carthage's roster should be in two parts..

1. Their native punic roster
2. Their mercenary AOR roster

Here are some reskins we can do:
These units would all be reskins from the mercenary units
Numidian Cavalry
Balearic Slingers
Libyan Skirmishers
Barbarian Infantry

These skins can be for Carthaginian Native Units:
Poeni Skirmishers - Heavy Peltasts from Vanilla in Carthaginian Colors
Punic Hoplites - Did they exist? We can use the Greek Hoplite skin in Carthaginian Colors

These units are from other mods:
The Hellenic States
Iberian Caetrati - AOR unit
Liby-Phoenician Spearmen
Carthaginian Marines - Needs to be reskinned a bit
Carthaginian Scutarii - AOR unit, we need to call it "Heavy Scutarii"

Extended Greek Mod
Militia Phalangites
Libyan Light Infantry
Civic Light Infantry
Civic Infantry
Civic Cavalry


If I find anymore I will post.. give me your thoughts

hameleona
11-19-2011, 13:59
They did draw most of the units from other places - manly from conquered tribes and the like. I can just give some suggestions:

Carthage Unit List (Ham's vision :p)

Infantry
1. Militia.
2. Libyan Spearmen
3. Iberian Infantry (Scutiarii, at basic)
4. Liby-Phoenician Infantry (hoplites)
5. Carthage Heavy Infantry (sort of imitation legionaries, but not the way vanilia treats them - I can base them on the heavy peltast model, give them more armor and see how it works out. Post-Marian unit)

Cavalry
1. Numidian Cavalry
2. Iberian Cavalry (technically the same old Long Shields)

Ranged
1. Peltast
2. Poeni Archers (or Libyan Archers, i don't really care for the name)
3. Heavy Peltasts

Other:
1. African Elephants
2. Armored Elephants

Don't think they need more. One of the problems for them in the vanilia was the hard way of getting the good units. In the same time, they had too many units, without actually having any different game-play effects. So, that is how i see the Carthage Unit Rooster. We can always make an AOR system to give the factions more units ;)

Lord President of Gallifrey
12-19-2011, 02:32
A Carthaginian army consisted of mainly African -Numidian and Libyan- and Iberian soldiers. There would also be Gauls, Ligurians, and even Greeks in an army. However, Carthage was not usually a citizen army, suggesting Carthage used many mercenaries and some levied troops from outside of Carthage.


Unit Roster
Town Militia
Iberian Infantry
Scutarii Infantry*
Carthaginian Infantry*
Libyan Spearmen?
Poeni Infantry
Skirmishers
Slingers
Archers*
Poeni Archers*
Round Shield Cavalry
Long Shield Cavalry?
Sacred Band Cavalry?

[Red words are the ones we should definitely take out
Blue words represent the units that should be changing.]

I used Polybius’ Histories, but I will use Livy in a future edit.

TOWN MILITIA
I would advise changing the Town militia, as they were used in special circumstances.


They also set about collecting mercenaries; arming their own citizens who were of military age; training and drilling the city cavalry; and refitting what were left of their ships, triremes, penteconters, and the largest of the pinnaces.

*Polybius Book 1, chapter 73*

This was during the Mercenary War. Carthaginian citizens are not usually armed so the use of what might be considered “militia” is an exception.

Iberian soldiers have been referred to as being mercenaries.

LIBYAN SPEARMEN
The Libyan spearmen has historical basis, I think they were also the levied troops that fought in the second row of Hannibal’s army at Zama*, and accompanied Hannibal into Italy.

*This is according to “Roman Army in the Punic Wars” by Nic Fields

“The Libyans and mercenaries mistook the object of this movement, and imagined that the Carthaginians were panic-stricken and in full retreat.”

*Polybius Book 1 Chapter 76*

Polybius refers to the Libyans as being separate from the mercenaries so the Libyan units should be faction units. However, then again, there is evidence for mercenary Libyan soldiers as well. Polybius describes the main body of mercenaries to be Libyans.

I believe we should rename the skirmishers. They were of Numidian descent, and they may have been referred to as “peltasts”. I also think this should be an AOR unit/mercenary unit. I believe there were also Libyan javelin men (these were different to the heavier Libyan spearmen).

Round Shield Cavalry was the Iberian Cavalry, and probably should be an AOR unit/mercenary unit

I do not think Carthage had its own archers; it may have used other African archers.


Elephants
War Elephants
Armoured Elephants
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard

I would advise the use of only one type of bodyguard, and one type of elephant.




Ok, we can see here that Carthage does not have a lot of their "own" units. We see units from Africa and Spain. My question is, did they have many units that were Punic? Or did they draw most of their troops from the Libyan population? Also, I think they should have some native units from Sicily, and some native barbarian troops.

See above



I'm probably going to get rid of the "Sacred Band Cavalry" unit because there was not even a Carthaginian Sacred Band Unit in 280 B.C.

The Sacred Band phalanx existed before the time of the mod, but I am not sure if they were used during conflicts such as the 1st and 2nd Punic War, as I do not find reference to them.


After researching mods I have decided that Carthage's roster should be in two parts..

1. Their native punic roster
2. Their mercenary AOR roster

Here are some reskins we can do:
These units would all be reskins from the mercenary units
Numidian Cavalry
Balearic Slingers
Libyan Skirmishers
Barbarian Infantry

These skins can be for Carthaginian Native Units:
Poeni Skirmishers - Heavy Peltasts from Vanilla in Carthaginian Colors
Punic Hoplites - Did they exist? We can use the Greek Hoplite skin in Carthaginian Colors


A person playing Carthage should rely heavily on mercenaries, but an army should include small amounts of levied troops such as the Libyphonecian Hoplite.

Barbarian Infantry - we should remove this generic unit
Punic Hoplites - I do not believe these soldiers existed (Libyphonecian Hoplites did though)
Poeni skirmishers - I do not believe these units existed.


These units are from other mods:
The Hellenic States
Iberian Caetrati - AOR unit
Liby-Phoenician Spearmen
Carthaginian Marines - Needs to be reskinned a bit
Carthaginian Scutarii - AOR unit, we need to call it "Heavy Scutarii"

Extended Greek Mod

Militia Phalangites
Libyan Light Infantry
Civic Light Infantry
Civic Infantry?
Civic Cavalry

I do not think Phalangites were used by the Carthaginians as during the first Punic War, the Spartan General who helped the Carthaginians most likely used the Greek Hoplite Phalanx, as the Spartans had not adopted the Macedonian Phalanx yet. There is an argument for Hannibal using the Macedonian phalanx - but I do not think so, otherwise Polybius would have indicated so

Civic cavalry and infantry did exist, but see the information regarding Carthaginian cavalry and Town militia respectively
Take out the Marines, and Scutarii,
Keep the Libyphonecian spearmen, and as for the Iberian Caeterati, I will research them
We should also add Libyyphonecian Cavalry as well


With his brother Hasdrubal in Iberia he left …also cavalry consisting of four hundred and fifty Libyophenicians and Libyans, three hundred Lergetae, eighteen hundred Numidians of the Massolian, Massaesylian, Maccoeian, and Maurian tribes, who dwell by the ocean; with eleven thousand eight hundred and fifty Libyans, three hundred Ligures

Polybius Book 3 Chapter 33

CARTHAGINIAN CAVALRY
They did exist. They could be considered the citizen cavalry that fought during the mercenary war, and at Zama.


His wings he strengthened with cavalry, stationing the Numidian allies on the left wing, and the Carthaginian horsemen on the right.

Polybius Book 15, Chapter 11


While the front ranks originally engaged with the Carthaginians, after losing many of their men and inflicting a still greater loss on the enemy, finding themselves charged on the rear by the Numidians

Polybius Book 3, Chapter 65

This is during a cavalry engagement that occurs before Trebia (I believe) and the Gallic Cavalry (that the Romans use) are engaging Hannibal’s cavalry. “Engaged with the Carthaginians could refer to actual citizen cavalry, or perhaps it means the cavalry is under a Carthaginian banner.


Hasdrubal stationed the Celtiberes in the centre opposite the Roman cohorts, the Numidians on the left, and the Carthaginians on the right.

Polybius, Book 14, Chapter 8

In the Siege of Utica, Hasdrubal faces Scipio, and stations what I believe is Carthaginian Cavalry on the right

There were also Romanised Libyans, which were the Libyans in Hannibal’s army that adopted Roman arms.

Celtiberes were mercenaries from Iberia that the Carthaginians hired.

ahowl11
12-20-2011, 05:39
very good research! we will need to use it as a guide when creating the roster