Community call to arms: Naval guide

[Peasant Phill]

Naval engagements have puzzled and frustrated (some) ever since their introduction in ETW. And it has been hard to find a good guide ever since. The introduction of ramming, torpedoes, ironclads, ... will all make it more complex but hopefully also more rewarding after a good fought naval encounter.

So please post as much information as you can on naval strategies and tactics on here. Even if it's somthing you tried but failed to hail the success you wanted. No success is also a result and something the community can build further upon. I'll eventually make this into a guide (with full credits going to everyone involved of course).

My first question:
How will the introduction of ramming and torpedoes affect the standard crossing of the T. I especially see a problem with torpedoes as it's almost impossible to miss your enemy when they are neatly aligned.

[Nelson]

The torpedo boats are rather fast but small and don’t take many hits. It’s not easy to close without getting shot up. The torpedoes are not much faster than the ships so you best be close. They fire two at a time directly forward (despite the apparent angle of the tubes) and can reload at least once. You’d be lucky to survive one attack though if you’re under fire. Torpedoes do tremendous damage, even breaking ships in half. It would be very difficult to approach a battle line perpendicularly and survive in any one boat. Several might succeed.

If anyone plans to trade with America because they want a monitor with 360 degree gunnery arcs, forget it. The monitor turrets do not turn. The three turrets have guns on both sides and the ship can only fire broadsides. This was disappointing. I like the naval battles otherwise. The ships are nicely modeled

[Madae]

The British Warrior is one epic beast of a ship. I figured they would have a great ship to loan me if I sided with them, so I did and I was happy with that arrangement.

[rogerman]

The japanese version of the ironclad has the ramming ability and one potent forwardfacing gun. Ive seen large enemy frigates explode after 2-3 hits. Accuracy is unparalleled but they are slooow, can easily become swarmed with enemy ships. The american gun turrets do not turn, one big turnoff. I have yet to experience the mighty HMS Warrior!

[SalmonSoil]

I have not yet seen a ship survive a ramming. It seems the Kotetsu (Japanese Ironclad) is a good ship for this role as all of it's guns other than the forward facing one are gatling guns, allowing you to devastate enemy decks at close range, and of course the forward facing cannon can fire whilst you speed towards the enemy boat.

Explosive shells seem to be the best option against wooden boats, while I'm assuming armour piercing should be used on Ironclads?

[Peasant Phill]

I haven't done a lot of naval battles but the lowly gun boat does seem to have it's uses even when it's facing far superior ships.
With it's decent speed and it's forward facing gun it can fill in the role that light cavalry does on land. Harrass and chase off routers for a very low cost.

Especially the chasing off routers seems to be a role that needs filling. Ships seems to rout relatively fast but rally easily when out off combat for a little while. Keeping bigger ships from reentering combat with a dirt cheap vessel seems a very cost effective tactic.

[jepp21]

The warrior class is not worth 18000 in my opinion. Its range is poor and i believe the French L'Ocean is more effective here.

Anyway never get your ships caught facing their broadside away from the enemy ships, and remember to turn the other side when one side gets severely damaged

[Nelson]

I haven't done a lot of naval battles but the lowly gun boat does seem to have it's uses even when it's facing far superior ships.
With it's decent speed and it's forward facing gun it can fill in the role that light cavalry does on land. Harrass and chase off routers for a very low cost.

Especially the chasing off routers seems to be a role that needs filling. Ships seems to rout relatively fast but rally easily when out off combat for a little while. Keeping bigger ships from reentering combat with a dirt cheap vessel seems a very cost effective tactic.

Yep. Sometimes you just need a ship to ferry troops or agents around or to block a choke point/crossing. Gunboats fill the bill.

[Sp4]

Torpedo boats are fun. They ships themselves die as soon as anything looks at them, the torpedoes are really slow, so you need to either be close or box in a ship to hit them.

One thing I tried with some success:

Send of a small fast ship (gun ship for example) after a big target (so it is behind the target and out of the way of its guns), all while the target is busy shooting one of your big heavy ships (ideally =P ). Get your torp boat closer and when you feel comfortable, tell your gun ship to board the target. The target will sit still for 20-30 seconds, no matter what happens, so happy torpedoing =D

2 Torpedoes that hit at the same time turn the Warrior into a ton of rapidly sinking scrap metal btw. (I tested this in custom battle, no idea how campaign difficulty affects this).

-E- One more thing... do not fire torpedoes into a bunch of ships that includes your own ones =p I didn't make any painful mistakes myself but I had one of my ships board an enemy ship and started losing the boarding, so I turned one torp boat to launch a torp that way while I still could but my own ship was between the torp boat and the actual target.... No matter.. my ship is going to surrender anyways >:D So the 2 torps slam into my surrendering ship that is right next to the enemy ship, blow up in an epic explosion and the last thing I saw of the enemy ship was a load of blood splattering out of the smoke from the explosion of my own ship XD

The enemy ship surrendered with 4 our of originally 70 some people left. Bit expensive for a naval shrapnel bomb but hey, it works really well. =p

Torpedoes have a potential to cause a lot of pain if stuff ever gets disorganised.

[Madae]

The warrior class is not worth 18000 in my opinion. Its range is poor and i believe the French L'Ocean is more effective here.

I believe its range is 800, which is 50 more than most ships, and only behind the Kotetsu, which has a range of 1000, and L'Ocean, which is 850. They also have 10000 armor, which is, I think, 7000 more than the next best, non-faction ship (again, the Kotetsu). I forget how many cannons it has, but I know its at least twice, if not three times more than a similar japanese vessel.

The only problem with the Warrior is that it's very slow... But, there is not a single ship, other than maybe L'Ocean, that could take its broadside and survive. I guess you could argue that the L'Ocean could do the same with a ram (and even sink a Warrior with it), but it's a totally different style of play. L'Ocean has to close the gap quickly or get chewed up by a Warriors' cannons.

Personally, I'll take the Warrior, because I love massive ships with dozens of cannons.

[Nelson]

I intercepted two ships (2 only) carrying a stack of troops toward my shore. I engaged them and sank them both. I remembered distinctly because they both sank like a submarine doing a crash dive. Upon returning to the strategy map one ship sailed away!

It was one of the two I had sunk, badly damaged but still transporting its dangerous cargo. Fortunately I had enough movement left to follow it and this time, blow it up.

This will need to be patched.

[Sp4]

I've always found it funny how a single ship, no matter the size can carry a full stack army ^^

[Nelson]

We are left to assume that there are some unarmed transports just over the horizon. We can allow such extrapolations. Games like TW are chock full of them.

Sunken enemies do not always sail away to be reengaged. I have had sunken ships get salvaged and become captured prizes, too! Astounding.

[Sp4]

We are left to assume that there are some unarmed transports just over the horizon. We can allow such extrapolations. Games like TW are chock full of them.

Sunken enemies do not always sail away to be reengaged. I have had sunken ships get salvaged and become captured prizes, too! Astounding.

I always try to do that =p Roleplay that there are some unarmed transports behind the actual navy =p

[Peasant Phill]

I've always found it funny how a single ship, no matter the size can carry a full stack army ^^

I think that is relic from earlier titles. In STW and MTW, you made a kind of ship chain where it was assumed that these ships guarded your ship lane.

[andrewt]

Sunken ships somehow surviving the battle has been there ever since Empire, I believe. I'm absolutely sure it happens a lot in vanilla Shogun and ROTS.

I find that its rare for corvette size ships to sink. It always seems to end in an explosion.

[Nelson]

About ramming.

The Kotetsu and the L’Ocean are the only ships that can do it so far as I can tell. It would have made sense for the construction of Kotetsu class ironclad rams to be contingent upon the research for ramming. Either that or remove ramming as a researchable tactic and just give it to the Kotetsu , a ship that would still require the dry dock to build.

The Kotetsu (modeled after the CSS Stonewall I believe) is powerful enough to still be useful without ramming but it really makes no sense to separate this ship from the tactic.

BTW, the Kotetsu’s Gatling battery erupts into action as soon as it comes to bear within range. Very cool.

[Slaists]

Gunboats: can be used as naval scouts. Frequently, you cannot see what is in AI's fleet stack when you click on it. If you attack too strong, the AI runs away (and you have wasted valuable move points on some ships that could be used elsewhere). If you attack to weak: well... you're too weak then. So, send a single gunboat to attack the AI's fleet first and retreat (without going into the battle). This way, full AI's fleet's composition is displayed. The gunboat will be stuck near the AI's fleet, but will be freed after you defeat the AI. This becomes quite valuable on VH campaign difficulty when the AI is able to spam fleets left and right and you have to budget your own response very tightly.

Kotetsu: due to their superior range (1000 versus 750 for frigates) gainst the AI, these can be used for 'pulling'. If the naval AI is defending, it just sits near the edge of the map with broadsides facing the attacking player. AI starts to move only if any ships comes into gun range (AI's or the attacker's). So, a tactic that seems to work for me is to approach with frigates, corvettes and set them up at a distance (outside their gun range) facing the AI with broadsides. Kotetsu then moves and pulls the AI's fleets towards the player's combined defensive broadsides. Of course, this would not work against humans.

[Vladimir]

A simple high-tech tactic I've been using is an L-shaped formation. I line my five heavies up on the enemy's left flank, at a 5 or 10 degree deflection and use the 1000 range Kotesus for my base of fire. I only have two per fleet but them, my two corvette flankers, and my torpedo boat secure the base. It's a real pleasure seeing the Warrior lead the charge as it wraps around the flank.

I agree, gunboats are excellent scouts but I wouldn't risk them against a fleet. My ships are teched enough that all I need to see is the total number to be sure of a win.

[Slaists]

A simple high-tech tactic I've been using is an L-shaped formation. I line my five heavies up on the enemy's left flank, at a 5 or 10 degree deflection and use the 1000 range Kotesus for my base of fire. I only have two per fleet but them, my two corvette flankers, and my torpedo boat secure the base. It's a real pleasure seeing the Warrior lead the charge as it wraps around the flank.

I agree, gunboats are excellent scouts but I wouldn't risk them against a fleet. My ships are teched enough that all I need to see is the total number to be sure of a win.

On harder difficulties it's frequently beneficial to send in the MINIMUM force sufficient to defeat the AI in order for the AI not to retreat (which would result in a waste of move points for the player's fleet). At times, AI is approaching with half a dozen fleets in the same spot. So, every move point (ship) I can save comes in handy in order to defeat them all (and not let them slip by to bombard my shores). That's where the gun-boat scouts come in handy.

[Vladimir]

True, to a point, but that's where strategy comes in. One fleet to make them run, one fleet to send them to the bottom.

Maybe I'll play a land game when I don't have so many fleets, but for now they run scared.

[Peasant Phill]

True, to a point, but that's where strategy comes in. One fleet to make them run, one fleet to send them to the bottom.

... one fleet to rule them all?

[Vladimir]

... one fleet to rule them all?

Rule Britannia!

Yes, even though I declared a Republic, I still sided with the British to get that wonderful Warrior.

[Voigtkampf]

The other night I went to conquer the small islands around Kyushu and found that I couldn't disembark my army; the assumption is that a port has a defense radius and one can't disembark the arm within that radius as long as the port is fully functional with coastal defenses? It was the first time I actually tried a beach landing so this came as some surprise to me. Can anyone confirm this?

[frogbeastegg]

Can anyone comment on ships and auto-calc? Are there any ships which perform particularly well in auto-calc, or particularly badly? I've mainly been using the ... ah, nihon maru I think it's called. The biggest ship you can build in a single turn using the starting docks, it's got 16 guns and a similar name to a 12 gun ship. I'm not at my desktop and can't look the names up in the encyclopaedia, gah! They are ok, not that good but I haven't found anything better so far.

I noticed that the American ironclad is a bit poor in auto-calc. I sent a fleet with 1 ironclad and 4 copper hulled nihon marus(?), all at full health, against a 3 ship fleet of 12 gun wooden hulled marus(?). All of my cheap ships survived, the ironclad sunk, and I captured the enemy ships. Not so impressed considering how much that thing cost! The British and French ironclads seem to fare better.

[Peasant Phill]

The other night I went to conquer the small islands around Kyushu and found that I couldn't disembark my army; the assumption is that a port has a defense radius and one can't disembark the arm within that radius as long as the port is fully functional with coastal defenses? It was the first time I actually tried a beach landing so this came as some surprise to me. Can anyone confirm this?

At Goto island, you also have to land your army within the radius of the port but I had no problem then. Perhaps this comes in play after the port has been upgraded to military port or trading port?

[Vladimir]

I've stopped using autocalculate for ship battles because I always get a much better result. Even against vastly inferior fleets at least one of mine takes moderate damage with slight damage to others, as opposed to slight damage to some.

I'm getting a little bored with the process, really. I shouldn't have tried domination in my first game.

[Voigtkampf]

Perhaps this comes in play after the port has been upgraded to military port or trading port?

My assumption as well, just not certain which upgrade exactly.

[quadalpha]

My assumption as well, just not certain which upgrade exactly.

It's military port. I know this because I always went with trading port and didn't get it. Enemy ships that end a turn in the radius of control also get attrition damage.

[Greyblades]

I noticed that the American ironclad is a bit poor in auto-calc. I sent a fleet with 1 ironclad and 4 copper hulled nihon marus(?), all at full health, against a 3 ship fleet of 12 gun wooden hulled marus(?). All of my cheap ships survived, the ironclad sunk, and I captured the enemy ships. Not so impressed considering how much that thing cost! The British and French ironclads seem to fare better.

Eh, can't take a pounding like a Victory, not enough cannons to be all that effective against ironclads, cant ram like l'ocean, no gattling guns, last one I used got shot up by wooden hulled corvettes without armour piercing rounds before it could sink one. It has a habit of dying a slow death on its own, it cant kill an advanced or numerous enemy quick enough to save itself but takes a long time to lose. My verdict is it's a glorified bullet sponge. Late game, it's best used to distract the enemy while you use your frigates and corvettes try and cross the T.

Not what you asked but I'm not sure what auto battle has against it.

[andrewt]

I believe auto-calc drastically underestimates the power of all ironclads. It's similar to what the Black Ship endured in vanilla Shogun. If you have one of those top of the line ships, you're better off fighting the battles directly.

[Sp4]

Can anyone comment on ships and auto-calc? Are there any ships which perform particularly well in auto-calc, or particularly badly? I've mainly been using the ... ah, nihon maru I think it's called. The biggest ship you can build in a single turn using the starting docks, it's got 16 guns and a similar name to a 12 gun ship. I'm not at my desktop and can't look the names up in the encyclopaedia, gah! They are ok, not that good but I haven't found anything better so far.

I noticed that the American ironclad is a bit poor in auto-calc. I sent a fleet with 1 ironclad and 4 copper hulled nihon marus(?), all at full health, against a 3 ship fleet of 12 gun wooden hulled marus(?). All of my cheap ships survived, the ironclad sunk, and I captured the enemy ships. Not so impressed considering how much that thing cost! The British and French ironclads seem to fare better.

In my experience, auto calculation seems to apply damage to your ships going by price, or size or whatever else there is that makes the biggest ship appear first on the unit scroll when you select a stack.

When you auto calc huge battles, it isn't unusual for a lot of large (first) ships to take a lot of damage or die, at least in my experience.

Also.. I think for what the ships can do.. the naval battle maps are far too small =S

[frogbeastegg]

Hmm, it may be worth testing some of the mid-range ships then. The ones which take 2 or 3 turns to build. I don't like naval battles in any of the games, and have previously managed to do better with auto-calc than I'm managing in FotS. I'm having to repair after every battle and that's not great when combined with the AI's habit of building loads of ships.

[Sp4]

At least repairing a navy no longer takes up a slot in your recruitment queue anymore.

I too rather dislike large naval engagements, I am absolutely horrible at them lol. In my current campaign, a friendly harbour came under blockade from a full stack fleet from our enemies and I decided to scrape togerther all my defensive navy and get rid of that stack..

I ended up attaking with 1 1/2 stacks of ships, consisting of 4 of the 200 crew frigates, a large number of ships in the medium range, with 70 something crew and a few gun and torpedoe boats.

The army power bar was hugely in my favour, at least 80:20 and the enemy had largely wooden hulls, while most of mine were copper plated..

I decided to fight it on the map anyways, because epic huge sea battle and all. I ended up nearly losing and only 4 of my ships survived that (3 medium and 1 heavy), the rest just diaf xD
The main problem with the battle imo was that (other than me being terrible at naval battles) the naval battle map is far too small to have 2 1/2 stacks of ships rampaging through it imo.

[quadalpha]

I think the naval battles are fundamentally flawed. They just copied the exact same mechanics from land battles. There needs to be a re-think about the kinds of decisions made by a naval commander in battle and how to convey those to the player, because they are not the same as those made by a land commander.

[Trithemius]

The absolute biggest problem with naval battles is that tactical events have a huge disconnect with strategic. I watched a proud enemy Kasuga-class gracefully sink beneath the waves in tactical battlespace - only to have it flee! No point in going in hard tactically and trying to sink or board enemy ships if the strategic results are random!

I rather like the way naval battles play out tactically now - but I simply cannot be bothered playing them out if the events of the battle bear so little resemblance to the strategic outcomes.

Anyway...
I mostly build Kasuga-class corvettes myself. Five of these make up my "fighting" squadrons for the early part of the game; and normally there is an admiral aboard racking up XP. I use squadrons of three gunboats for ferrying, exploration, and piracy. I also found, playing as the sole effective Imperial, that single gunboats could block the repair of ports most of the time which meant that the heavy squadrons only needed to come by and pound military ports into submission now and then. This proved very helpful as the Satsuma and trying to keep my trade lanes open and deny the enemy their trade income.

[Sp4]

It usually is not that random. It happens occasionally but most of the time, something that dies (sinks, burns and then sinks, surrenders or explodes) stays dead on the campaign map.

[Trithemius]

I reject the notion of my tactical genius being treated in such a cavalier fashion by mere mechanical processes even once! :P

[Sp4]

Well yes I see what you are saying but there are so many other things that need looking at =p

[andrewt]

Hmm, it may be worth testing some of the mid-range ships then. The ones which take 2 or 3 turns to build. I don't like naval battles in any of the games, and have previously managed to do better with auto-calc than I'm managing in FotS. I'm having to repair after every battle and that's not great when combined with the AI's habit of building loads of ships.


I have 2 roving stacks currently in my game (one had a 200-unit Kasuga, another 80-unit ship and 3 gunboats; the other has a 132-unit, an 80-unit and 3 gunboats). Both of these fleets are able to sink the 80-unit or so single ship stacks the AI likes to send to harass your ports and trading lines on autocalc while taking no damage. My generals were rank 4-5 already so I don't know if that affects it.

[Jungle Rhino]

I'm currently battling through a Legendary Chosu campaign and marching up Western Honshu has led to me fighting MANY naval battles. At first I had no idea what to do and would find myself struggling with the lack of pause in order to get all my ships pointing the right way and actually shooting at the enemy. But over time I have learned I think some quite effective tactics.

1. The Strategy Map - Knowing how to make your fleets work well on the strategy map is half the battle. The AI SPAMS ships - single ships, twos, threes, it is annoying having to fight all these battles so you want to autocalc but to autocalc you want a massive advantage but then the enemy will just run away... So you need to trap them - use single gunboats to do this. Move your battle fleet up to reinforcement range of the enemy, then launch the actual attack with a gunboat from an angle so that if the enemy flees they will hit the coast and stop moving. Doesn't always work and sometimes they just charge off in a random direction. The other approach to use is to go defensive and form a bottle neck. This often results in the AI ships 'piling up' nearby - if you can start your turn reasonably close then they can't flee far enough away to escape and you can run them down.


2. Ship Selection - I have experimented with most of the ships and I'll try and summarise each:
> Gunboat - primarily useful for Strategy map scouting/initialising battles and running down routing ships - can board enemy ships. PRO TIP: A single gunboat can usually destroy a heavily damaged (red) corvette in autocalc. Use them to run these down.

> Kanko - this ship only packs a measly 6 guns, and is one of the slowest - can not board ships. BUT it is in ALL my fleets because the cost and upkeep is half that of any other corvette and it is just as tough - it is the meat shield that takes up the position at the end of your line - you know the spot where each enemy ship fires their first volley when they turn? Use these guys they are expendable and cheap to repair.

> Kanrin - a real workhorse with 12 guns - can not board ships. I actually rarely use these - but they are very good value for money and reasonably small, good for somebody looking to save a few koku

> Kaiten - I think this is probably the best all rounder corvette, 14 guns and can board ships. The major thing going for this guy is that he is the biggest ship you can build in a single season, so great for emergencies.

> Kasuga - These things look dead sexy, and mount the most guns of any corvette, can board ships and are the fastest corvette in the game. Pretty much the Rolls Royce if you can afford them, big downside is the long recruitment time though.

> Kaiyo Maru - Frigate with tons o guns! These will form the centerpiece of your fleet until you can afford ironclads. Not terribly fast but mounts a huge number of guns that will decimate corvettes. Big downside is of course the price, upkeep for these on Legendary is close to 550 koku which is a lot.

A typical fleet for me will consist of a single Kaiyo Maru, supported by 1-2 Kasuga/Kaiten class corvettes, and usually 1-2 Kanko meatshields also. Finally a Gunboat will always be nearby acting as a strategy map scout.


3. Ammunition & Armour Types - I have not experiemented with this as much as I would have liked but I'll share my experiences so far:
> Solid Shot - default shot type, avoid at all costs

> Explosive Shot - research this ASAP as it will allow you to dominate early fleets of wooden ships - they will catch on fire or surrender very quickly. Remains effective even against copper plated hulls but of course slightly less so. Major drawback is the lack of range - and the AI knows this too - I've seen them try and get out of range which can cause you problems as you can only switch ammo types every 30s or so. Also - be wary of the AI using this against you - if you see them coming hard at you try and get away from them, especially if you are using AP.

> Armour Piercing Shot - this has been a life saver for me. The key thing with this is that it is super accurate, so you hit hard and often - it also goes right through the enemy ships - often starting fires in the process. This is my preferred shot type and is highly effective against Copper hulled - and still very good against wooden simply as it is more accuate at long range, which is where you want to be to avoid the enemy explosive shot.

> Wooden Hull - standard protection

> Copper Hull - slightly improved protection, hard to gauge the effect though - allegedly less likely to catch fire but I still see plenty of copper ships burning.

> Armoured Hull - I haven't managed to build any ships with this yet but I assume it would be pretty good.

Other key points about your hull is that you can see the damage state of this by the two bars at the bottom of your ship picture, and also visually by zooming in and looking at your ship. Be careful because a 'green' ship with high crew complement can still be carrying significant hull damage. From my experience once your hull bars dip into yellow you become vulnerable to explosion insta kills. So pull heavily damaged ships out of the line, or begin to repair them. Also if fighting a series of battles don't always line your ships up pointing to the left - or their right side will always be getting hits. Alternate the side of the your ships that you engage the enemy with.

[Sp4]

Yeah towards the later game, most of my fleets consist of Kaitens, Kasugas and 2-3 uh... frigates.