YOUR IDEAS

[Asgaroth]

I just wanted that you guys post your ideas here in these thread.What can we mod or add to the mod.

But before you do that I want you all to take a look at the thread -HRTW progress so you all can see what is added at the moment.

You can also tell what minimods could be added to the mod.

As I do not know what can I mod more.

And not ideas will be in.Just some of them.So the more ideas you give,the chance is bigger that more of them will be in.

[RomeTotalWar]

To be honest we could get everything finished, release it as version 1.0 and then ask the public after play the mod what could be improved or added... I mean we should at least be able to release it unbugged instead of trying to add everything in the first release??

[Asgaroth]

To be honest we could get everything finished, release it as version 1.0 and then ask the public after play the mod what could be improved or added

There will be no version 1.0 , 2.0 ,3.0. Just one version for now.



I mean we should at least be able to release it unbugged instead of trying to add everything in the first release??

It will go this way.We make the mod,we test it.So it means all of us on the team play the mod.We open a thread about the bugs,correct them and release the mod.

[hameleona]

Worked around the recruitment system in the long nights... (i'm boring you i know, but just bare a little, ok?)

Since we do not want EB (and even RTR) 35-turns-for-worthy-units system, and vanilla basic system does not fit well in the "H" for HRTW ( ;) ) i've got an idea (oh, yeah, again with my ideas).

To train units, you need some things - equipment, barracks and a military system, that fits it. So we have the 4 basic buildings form rtw:

Barracks
Stables
Archery range
Blacksmith

the only new thing is the building called Military Doctrine. It will be different for the different cultures. If you leave the native doctrine (or build it) - you'll have the AOR units of the region. If you build your own - you have your units (based on the level of the four building levels). I just need to see again the "or" description in the building requirement block, so that you can build the doctrine ether for yourself or for the local tribes.

It gives a lot of bonuses - it is simple (no scripting, not much coding), does not tweaks vanilla to much (you still don't need to rebuild the barracks from level one, so that you can train troops), gives a more realistic feel (no legions 6 months after you have taken the region) and has a game-play value. You want AOR units - pay the price. Leave the locals on their ways and they will rebel. Assimilate them - and you won't have warbands - you'll have legions instead (or the reverse if you are the barbarian).

The idea has it flaws tho - it keeps the RTR crash (hard to explain), witch although small is still a crash. And it will want a lot of code in the recruitment rows (i'll do it). Not to mention, that i haven't tried it yet in-game, so i have no idea if it will work at all.

But, i'll love you thoughts on it.


Bunch of small ideas:

vanilla stile marian reforms, but only legion cohorts, not early and late. No urban cohorts two. Praetorians recruited from the barracks!
government buildings should give a pop-growth penalty, so that you don't grow from 2000 pop to 24 000 in a few turns.
at least some law buildings, to keep the public order normal in the late-game.
thracian legionaries! (post-marian)
game-play temple balance.
better aiming ballistas/scorpions/repeating ballistas.
No crazy roman ships!

nothing that i can't live without, but stuff i would love to see :)

[Asgaroth]

the only new thing is the building called Military Doctrine. It will be different for the different cultures. If you leave the native doctrine (or build it) - you'll have the AOR units of the region. If you build your own - you have your units (based on the level of the four building levels). I just need to see again the "or" description in the building requirement block, so that you can build the doctrine ether for yourself or for the local tribes.


You want AOR units - pay the price. Leave the locals on their ways and they will rebel. Assimilate them - and you won't have warbands - you'll have legions instead (or the reverse if you are the barbarian).

Very,very nice idea. If you want it,so be it !


better aiming ballistas/scorpions/repeating ballistas.- Yes


government buildings should give a pop-growth penalty, so that you don't grow from 2000 pop to 24 000 in a few turns- yes


at least some law buildings, to keep the public order normal in the late-game.-Maybe, give the bonus to law to the barracks ? It makes sense,because the higher the rank of barracks the more order will be ingame. Traders could give happyness bonuse because people are happy that they have verious things to buy or sell- ?


thracian legionaries! (post-marian)- explain a bit. By the way we will have legions like roma surrectum after the marian reforms.


No crazy roman ships!-explain a bit as I don't understand.


game-play temple balance.-explain a bit as I don't understand.

[Asgaroth]

Double post,sorry !

[hameleona]

-Maybe, give the bonus to law to the barracks ? It makes sense,because the higher the rank of barracks the more order will be ingame. Traders could give happyness bonuse because people are happy that they have verious things to buy or sell- ?

Yeah, barracks is logical. The trader does that, but needs boosting.


- explain a bit. By the way we will have legions like roma surrectum after the marian reforms.
Never played RS, but i must say... do you have any idea how much models and scripting means that?
Not that this is a bad idea... just... RS already does that. And it ads a crazy complexity to otherwise simple game.


thracian legionaries! (post-marian)
Thracians adopted roman equipment and tactics for a while (after that while, they wore a roman province).


No crazy roman ships!
Qinqiriaknmkjbnafsd-remas from the temples. Romas used bridges on their ships in the first punic war, but that fleet sunks in a storm. After that, they use normal ships.


game-play temple balance.

Ok, an example:
+5 farming from temples for the macedonians is crazy. They have better farming, than Egypt! Witch leads to more money, witch leads to macedon overwhelming the map in 3/4 of the games. That is one example. (logic behind should be: They are crazy-ass in the military - they don't need a ton of money on top of that, not the opposed). Even thematically it fails - macedonians wore never much of a farmers.

Actually this leads to the question - what should temples do? My ideas:
They should give multiple bonuses, but not to high ones. happiness - yes. 5/10/15/20/25 (i think it is the same now). After that we can distinguish the following types:
1. War temples - give exp. bonus to the trained units (+1/+1/+2/+2/+3)
2. Trade temples - give trading bonus (and a good one)
3. Fertility - pop.growth bonus as in vanilla or maybe smaller pop.growth but also a trade one :P
4. Law - bonus law, and a good one.
5. Celebration - gives more happiness bonus.

There are some mix and match to be done for the exact numbers, but no farming input, no weapon upgrades (except maybe +1 for nations that don't have 3rd level blacksmith) to the skies. Small but many logical and theme-based bonuses. Currently vanilla have a lot of stupid things.

[Asgaroth]

Not that this is a bad idea... just... RS already does that. And it ads a crazy complexity to otherwise simple game.

Ok. Then we will have like in the vanilla. Just few legionnari units.


Thracians adopted roman equipment and tactics for a while (after that while, they wore a roman province).

I don't know about this one. I rather not use them. It is better to just make vanilla units.


Romas used bridges on their ships in the first punic war, but that fleet sunks in a storm. After that, they use normal ships.


Still don't understand. You mean you would like the romans not to have that third type of ships ?


+5 farming from temples for the macedonians is crazy. They have better farming, than Egypt! Witch leads to more money, witch leads to macedon overwhelming the map in 3/4 of the games. That is one example. (logic behind should be: They are crazy-ass in the military - they don't need a ton of money on top of that, not the opposed). Even thematically it fails - macedonians wore never much of a farmers.

Ok I get it- nice !



Actually this leads to the question - what should temples do? My ideas:

The same as my idea was. It will be like that,but I will tell you which gods to put.

[hameleona]

Still don't understand. You mean you would like the romans not to have that third type of ships ?


I mean THIS one :P
5508

For the thracian imitation legionaries... i can't prove that they would have them. In the mid 2nd century BC they recognized roman rule, and after that started legion-stile combat, retaining the warrior traditions they had. Not much is known for their army in the roman era, mostly couse some pesky diadochi tried to rule them over and over again.

I can't really suggest a rooster, couse i'm bulgarian, and i'm not very objective on the topic. So i'll shut up, unless someone wants to read my thoughts on the question. (but if you do - please say so :P)

I do have other ideas, tho :P

2. I think i can make many reforms with the Military Doctrine system. The script is not that hard but it is LONG, so if you don't decide that you really want it - i won't bother doing it. But i can do it. We will have to really cut the roosters down to the most basic stile, leaving some units for "if there is a place" time.

3. Also, i have no problem making ton of units. But i DO advise you as someone with deep interest in game-play theory to build the rosters the following way:

(tier = level of the unit. For the vanilla romans: 0 - pesant, 1 - town watch, 2 - hastati, 3 - principi, 4 - triarii, 5 - praetorians/urbans)

Infantry: 5 at most, with one per tire (don't think of tire 0 infantry. we need something like it, but we will see what will it be)
Cavalry: 4 at most
Ranged: 4 at most
Total: 12 at most.

This way we can have no more than 20*12=240 units total, witch is good, couse the DMB has 250 slots, 30 of witch already taken by stuff that can not be excluded. So, again - 12 units per faction. We can add more later, don't bother. Also game-play wise:
Yes, everyone had everything (ok, romans and some barbarians didn't had phalanxes). The question is: Should they have it in-game. Try not adding everything in a roster. For example - chartage used phalanxes and did had heavy swordsmen. So, how do a man makes a roster for them:

Phoenican Military Doctrine:
Infantry:
tire 1 - Libyan spearmen (nothing special)
tire 2 - Liby-Phoenician phalangites
tire 3 - Liby-Phoenician swordsmen
tire 4 - Sacred Band (temple-recruited)

Ranged
tire 1 - Peltasts, Slingers
tire 2 - Poeni Archers

Cavalry
tire 1 - Liby-Phoenician cavalry (light mele cavalry)
tire 2 - Poeni Citizen Cavalry (medium mele cavalry)
tire 3 - African Elephants
tire 4 - Asian Elephants

I would leave all other units out. Yes, they can get scutarii, craetarii, and so on, but only using Native Military Doctrine of the region. Also famous mercenary units should be what they are - mercenaries.

But, this is how I would do it. ;) I'm far away from telling you what to do and how to do it. I just don't want an EB-stile mod, where you have no idea what is what, and when and where you can recruit something. I want it vanilla-stile as possible.

[Asgaroth]

I think i can make many reforms with the Military Doctrine system. The script is not that hard but it is LONG, so if you don't decide that you really want it - i won't bother doing it. But i can do it. We will have to really cut the roosters down to the most basic stile, leaving some units for "if there is a place" time.


If I have to choose between the units and military doctorine I choose the units.Eventhough I would like to see that doctorine for me the units are important.


I really don't know what to say to all this. We must have 12-20 units and that is ok with me,but I don't like the feeling of just leaving space for units and then just going back to a faction and adding. I would like that we finish one faction at a time but for good,so in other words that it is done.

Also the names you have give to the carthaginian units are wery nice. They will be named in that way in the game.


The question is: Should they have it in-game.

No. I don't want barbarians to be able to recruit other units or romans carthaginian units and so on. It will be like in vanilla game.


[QUOTE]So, how do a man makes a roster for them:

Phoenican Military Doctrine:
Infantry:
tire 1 - Libyan spearmen (nothing special)
tire 2 - Liby-Phoenician phalangites
tire 3 - Liby-Phoenician swordsmen
tire 4 - Sacred Band (temple-recruited)

Ranged
tire 1 - Peltasts, Slingers
tire 2 - Poeni Archers

Cavalry
tire 1 - Liby-Phoenician cavalry (light mele cavalry)
tire 2 - Poeni Citizen Cavalry (medium mele cavalry)
tire 3 - African Elephants
tire 4 - Asian Elephants

Just like this hameleona,very nice roaster. One thing though - I want the scutarii and iberian infantry or in other name craetarii to be part of the normal roaster.

I want the roasters to be as the vanilla with as much low AOR units as it gets.

If you add scutarii and iberian infantry or in other name craetarii you will have 12 units roaster,so we need to make Carthage have at least 4 more units to make te game interesting and please hear my thoughts :

Instead of the Native Military Doctrine we can make Mercenary military doctorine and when you do that you will be able to recruit normaly all the mercenary units that faction used.So if you make Mercenary military doctorine you will be able to recruit :

Celtic swordsmen, Mauretanian archers,Samnite cavalry and Numidian skirmishes.

So the upper roaster that you made(Phoenican Military Doctrine) + the mercenary doctorine is a total of 16 units for Carthage and there are no AOR. What do you think ?

[hameleona]

I think we are going somewhere good.

I have another idea, so that we can keep the vanilla feel AND add the units you want. I can just give them a Mercenary Barracks. And from there they can recruit the mercenary units.
Example:
Tire 1: Craetari; Numidian javelinmen (or moorah javelinmen - having problems with that name)
Tire 2: Scutarii; Mauretanian archers; Numidian cavalry.
Tire 3: Celtic Swordsmen; Baelric slingers; Samnite cavalry (still don't know about the samnites... they fought with Carthage couse Hannibal was there)
Tire 4: No idea
Tire 5: No idea

It is balanced - couse it takes time and money to unlock the units, and in the same time, they have them.

I want to add something. When i said 12 units, i mean 12 faction-specific units. Even vanilla selucid have more than 20 units, but only one of those is adding a model. So, in theory you can give 100 units to a faction. The problem is that there is no real need - 35 phalanx units... yea, i really need them as a player.



I really don't know what to say to all this. We must have 12-20 units and that is ok with me,but I don't like the feeling of just leaving space for units and then just going back to a faction and adding. I would like that we finish one faction at a time but for good,so in other words that it is done.

Well, we can do it one of two ways - add later, or try putting everything we need and then remove later. I don't think any of us prefers to remove a unit (not to mention, that in that time they'll be implemented and ready for play).


If I have to choose between the units and military doctorine I choose the units.Eventhough I would like to see that doctorine for me the units are important.
Well reforms = more units = more models :)
Just adding the camilean reform ads around 5-6 new models to the DMB. That was what i meant. :)

[Asgaroth]

I can just give them a Mercenary Barracks.

Very nice, you got what I was trying to say. Well this is good as no mod has it I think so ?. So this will be something new to the TW in general.



Tire 1: Craetari; Numidian javelinmen (or moorah javelinmen - having problems with that name)
Tire 2: Scutarii; Mauretanian archers; Numidian cavalry.
Tire 3: Celtic Swordsmen; Baelric slingers; Samnite cavalry (still don't know about the samnites... they fought with Carthage couse Hannibal was there)
Tire 4: No idea
Tire 5: No idea

1.Craetari are iberian infantry which means they are Charthaginians.

2.Moorish javelinmen. The moors were berber tribes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

Just under the title History-overwiev and you will get the point.This link is just that you get informed a bit,so that I don't tell you to make units that you haven't even heard of.

3. Three tires are enough.


I want to add something. When i said 12 units, i mean 12 faction-specific units. Even vanilla selucid have more than 20 units, but only one of those is adding a model. So, in theory you can give 100 units to a faction. The problem is that there is no real need - 35 phalanx units... yea, i really need them as a player.

Some factions will have more units,some will have less. Yes,there is no need for 10 phalanx units,but if a faction has an army composed only of phalanx units,you can't give to a faction only few phalanx units,like three,right ? So, there will be no 77 phalanx units,and we will balanc the game.

Let us concentrate our minds on recruiting(which we have almost finish debating of) and on Carthage as the first faction we are making.


Well, we can do it one of two ways - add later, or try putting everything we need and then remove later. I don't think any of us prefers to remove a unit (not to mention, that in that time they'll be implemented and ready for play).

To sattle this- Rome, Carthage,Seleucid Empire,Ptolemaic Empire,The Kingdom of Antagonid Macedon,The Aetolian League & the Odrysian Kingdom wil MAYBE have 15-20 units, all other factions will have 15 or less units


Well reforms = more units = more models :)
Just adding the camilean reform ads around 5-6 new models to the DMB. That was what i meant. :)


Ohh nice !

So also with the reforms we will go faction by faction- Carthage is first,they didn't have a reform. So You don't need to do anything for them.

Rome had few reforms, Seleucids also had a reform.,but lets think of it when we come to a certain faction.


So for now :

We need to add that mercenary barracks. Which is in my mind a good idea.

[hameleona]

Hell the job gets heavier every day :lol:
Me and my big mouth :lol:

I'll start working on the stuff these days. It won't be fast, tho. I have to start making the Military Doctrine system, and add the barracks. Lot of work.

PS: Caetratii are iberians. Just as the Scutarii, that is why i send them to the mercenary pool ;)

[Asgaroth]

Ok. Take your time,no problem. So make the barracks and the doctorine system.

You are right. I didn't thought about them.

[hameleona]

Since i have some free time now, i'll work on the buildings. So, this is what i plan on doing: ("/" divides the building levels)

Add 0/-0.5/-1.0/-1.5/-2.0% to population grow for every city level.
Rewrite the whole temple system, making only 7 types of temples - War, Population, Happiness, Farming, Trade, Forge (as trade, but gives the final +1 weapon and armor upgrade), Law. Barbarians and esterns will have level 5 temples, but don't ask me who will do the graphs for them :P.

That is for now. I'll ask again witch MM map we will use, so that i don't have to rewrite two times the building stuff in descr_strat.

[Asgaroth]

How many mundus magnus maps are there anyway ? And didn't Ozman made a map for us already ?

Nice job hameleona !

Here was my big idea :

We will remove all the peasant units and instead of them we will put weaker units for every faction. It will look more historical, but it will be interesting for the gameplay.

For Romans we already have town watch.

For Carthage it will be town militia

For the Aetolian league,Bosporans, Seleucid & Ptolemaic empire we will make another weak hoplite unit.

For the Macedonians we will make a militia phalangite unit

For the Sarmatians we will make a weak horse unit.

Do you get the point now ?

[hameleona]

Yeah, basically we send the tire 1 unit to the peasants place.

And i know, that there was MM 4.0, witch implements, that there are 3 more :lol:

[Asgaroth]

If we dont have a map then I grant you the wish to choose the map on which are we going to build up the world. How sounds that ?

[hameleona]

Friggin great (sun)
I'll poke the maps around and see witch is the best.

[hameleona]

Big thing that i found, while testing for a map.

I think, that we should add the new factions last. And after extensive testing. The original RTW map is to small for more factions, and MM4.0 has another problem - it's too big to the east. No one can really harass the selucids. I suggest not touching the faction list, but waiting till the end for introducing them to the game (with the exception of the Illyrians, witch fit very well in the game-balance). Bosporians, the new celtic kingdom and nabateans should be the last made and implemented.

Couse, lets look at it from a practical point - if the selucid or some other faction just owns the campaign (similar to the Macedonians in RTR) couse they have no real enemies and great economy. That is all. I'm not saying that we will change the faction list. Just suggesting to wait till the end (not to mention, that two of those factions will be easy to make).

[ahowl11]

Why not use Philadelphos' map? My mod is using Mundus Magnus 4.0 and hameleona makes a good point about the Seleucids. The key is to make their eastern settlements weaker, and more likely to rebel because it will make it hard for the player, especially when Parthia is coming down. Also make the revolts consist of large stacks experienced troops that way it makes it even harder for the Seleucids. Thats what I am doing for my mod

[Asgaroth]

Why not use Philadelphos' map?

What is that map and where can it be found ?

Thanks for the advice.


However if we make Parthian,Armenian roaster a little better as we will make the Numidian one, so they are not so weak and that the Seleucids will have stronger enemyes.

[ahowl11]

Actually never mind that map. This one would be better for you as it is similar to Roma Surrectums and I remember you wanting Roma Surrectum's
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125577&highlight=Europa+270+BC

[Asgaroth]

Thanks ahowl11.

I like it alot. Because I just wanted the extended vanilla map.

But I will wait to see what hameleona has to say.

Thank you again !

[hameleona]

Didn't know that map. I'll test it tonight. I know MM 3.0 very well, so i can actually easily change the starting regions and stuff on it, while i'm lost on this one, but i do like the idea. I'll test the AI behavior on it, and post my thoughts. Realism is a great thing, but RTW's AI path-finding is not the best one.

That is all i'll say for now, having a lot of personal work, so it will happen, when it happens. ;)

[hameleona]

Well, i see a problem right away - Illyria has only two regions.

Actually, that map will be quite good, and probably won't have a problem with the strategic balance, so if Asgaroth likes it - we can use it. But i recommend playing on it a few times, so that you decide if you like it.

Only problem i had with the MM maps was the pretty big Selucid Empire, witch had a lot of small and (well, putting it bluntly) useless enemies. Armenia, Pontus, Parthia - they all didn't had the strength to match them. Egypt was the only threat. So, technically, if Asgaroth wants an enlarged vanilla map - we can use this one, and beg someone to add a few regions here and there (illyria is my biggest concern - to few regions is a bad thing for a faction, that will be between macedon, GCS, Celts and not long-after - the romans).

[Asgaroth]

Ok we can use this map and strat working on it.

I will try to hire someone.

I will contact Ozman to see if he is alive.

I think he already made a map for us,but after that he was lost somewhere.

[Cute Wolf]

Ozman is now lost inside ROTN...

[Asgaroth]

Ozman is now lost inside ROTN- what is that ?

[Cute Wolf]

Rise of the Nations http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=897

he said he's busy with that, but perhaps you could still try contacting him...

[Asgaroth]

Thank you for the explaination. I have contacted him before and he didn't respond so I will leave him to enjoy in what he is doing.

Thanks for the info.