I don\'t believe this....

[Rob]

Hop over to www.totalwar.com. (http://www.totalwar.com.) Go on, you can see their new clan league tournament in action!

Only its, well, awful. I can't believe that they've got so out of touch with what's going on in the Shogun community that they put this up and expect us to be thankful for it.

I answered a post in this forum a couple of days ago. It was called 'Can anyone explain the clan league?'. This question was based on the information released on Friday (honour day), about an official Clan League to be started this week. I replied that I didn't really know, but hoped that it wasn't based on the existing clan ranking structure. Well, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised any more, but I really didn't think that it would be. Well, I am proved wrong again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The clan league awards points to the Top 6 ranked clans every week. The number 1 clan gets 10 points, number 2 gets 6 etc.

This would be good, if it in any way reflected any achievement that a clan had made in that particular week. However, it is based on the overall rankings. These rankings, to my knowlege, have not changed significantly in the last few weeks, nor are they likely too in the next few weeks. As far as I can see, the top 6 clans contain one player each. They are not real clans, but individual players who are the only members of their own clans.

Which clans would you expect to see in a Top 6 Shogun clans? Fearful Ways? Chain Clan? Neither of these are in the top 6, in fact neither of these are in the top 30, because of the stupid manner in which the clan rankings are run. This is a well-known fact in the Shogun community; nobody pays any attention to the clan rankings. But it appears that this fact is not well-known to Dreamtime, or whoever runs this clan league.

Why have they not listened? It would be simple enough to exclude 'clans' with less than 5 players from the clan rankings. Probably wouldn't take more than an hour. But it has never been done. And we expect them to host an online campaign?

The eventual winner will be able to nominate a charity of their choice to receive $200, so I'm not going to criticise this as heavily as I might. But I sincerely doubt that this clan league will feature any real clans at all, let alone the ones we all know are the best.

But any 'clan' ranking system where the top clan has only one member, who has fought only 29 battles, has got to be screwed up.

[Obake]

I'm gonna take this one step further Rob

Here is the post from over at Totalwar.com:

The official Clan tournament starts today with the results looking like this, after the weekends bloodshed:

CLAN LEAGUE TABLE
POSITION CLAN DAIMYO POINTS
1 TexasBluesBrigade So takeshida 10
2 G-DOGG Yokota CHILLMACK 6
3 Clan Imperij Mori Imperij 4
4 Ajax Toda youssof 3
5 1530 Mori 1630 2
6 GRAVEDIGGERZ Tsuchiya SOZO 1

I did a little digging around on these clans.
First off, none of them have more than one member! Here are the results for these clans "after the weekends bloodshed"

TexasBluesBrigade- No Battles since 10/28
G-DOGG- No Battles since 11/17 (Chillmack is now known as ChilloFear!)
Clan Imperij- No Battles since 11/4
Ajax- No Battles since 11/11
Mori 1630- At least 32 battles!
(Mori 1630 is a very active player)
Tsuchiya SOZO- No Battles since 11/9
(normally very active also)

None of this information is posted to create any problems for any of the players mentioned here. All of these players deserve our respect for the positions that they have obtained.

The purpose in my post is to point out how out of touch the developers are with the community as a whole. They have taken our suggestions and implemented them in the patches, but what about the online community? They are so proud of the 25,000+ players they had they should be dedicating sufficient resources to support the online play. As it is enough attention can't even be paid to ensure that the clans competing in the league are even competing! (Let alone determining what constitutes a clan)

I am thrilled to death that a charitable donation will be made in the name of the league winner, but I would personally be embarrassed to have to ask someone what charity they would like the donation to go to and have them say "for what?"

I really don't want to bitch about this, but I was every bit as frustrated as Rob about how out of touch with the community CA/DT seem to be. I know I indicated that I hoped they would host/administer the online campaign we have been discussing on other threads, but I am more than a bit concerned about that now.


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Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

[FearOrBeSori]

This is so ridiculous that I can't help but laugh. I thought the clan tournament league was goin to be something different like an actual tourney. This is just too funny - Sori

[solypsist]

honestly guys, if i hadnt come across the .org early on, i'd have ditched the game months ago...

[FearOrBeSori]

Lol off topic but I finally began ashi scum!!! Obake feel free to throw me out! - Sori

[Rob]

I think that what this proves is that it's up to us to look after ourselves as far as proper tournaments are concerned. I really do enjoy playing this game, but the interaction between the developers and the community is not good enough. In this day and age there needs to be better interaction than this.

AFAIK Erado-San is still waiting for a reply to Question Time 2. Do the developers not realise that the STW community needs to be reassured that they are being listened to? This game could be huge online, but it isn't, partly because of lack of support for the community. We spend ages playing the game, making suggestions in forums like this one, working to arrange tournaments and make new maps and editing tools and what do we get? Some half-assed tournament that bears no actual relationship to reality whatsoever and, by the way, since we've been so busy working on this tournament, we probably won't get patch 1.13 out when we said we would.

I really really really don't want to say it, but things like this do not help at all.

[Widda]

After talking with SOZO on the weekend, seems he has started a new character with a new clan and his result will stay. Yet another problem with the player/clan rankings with discarded characters doing nothing and taking up positions in both ranks.

Our current rank 1 player Zandu Irobe hasn't played a comp game since the 28-10. No offense to Zandu hes a good player. But some thing must be done to penalise inactivity and or abandoned characters / clans.... Widda.

[Shimazu Tokugawa]

Amazes me that anyone is surprised about this whole new clan league thingi.

It is just right down the EA alley - CHEAP!

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"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

[This message has been edited by Shimazu Tokugawa (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Obake]

I won't argue with you about the level of support we have gotten from EA Shimazu, but I did expect more from CA/DT. In the past they have always worked hard to support the community and seemed to have listened to what we had to say, even if they were not the fastest on the block in getting back to us.

This league they are currently running shows a distinct lack of attention that is quite dis-concerting to me. We all bitch about the way online honor is handled along with a host of other issues, but this is different. This glaring lack of understanding about what is going on in the community has never been shown in the past.


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Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

[Shimazu Tokugawa]

Obake,
with all due respect we must have been in different worlds then (LOL) as we had this discussion before....

I believe when the server was down for two WEs in a row due to "maintenance".

I still stand for what I said then , I will not buy another EA game for a long time, probably not until STW II (if they unfortunately turn out to be the publisher again) and I do not need to as I will stay here as long as there is one other person to play this game with, which I consider BTW a great DT/CA game, screwed up by nonsupport by the publisher, EA.

This is just CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP, not to use more expressive french but I save that for the chatroom. How can they make up a league like that with one-man clans. Every clan has players that are not in the top 10/20/100 and will bring clan honor down, so what.

As you suggested for your campaign, clans in the league should have at least 5 active players that have played during the period they use for their stupid ranking.

Point is, that league doesn't mean crap, tournaments will replace these rankings at least for the serious player!

Humbley,
ST


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"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"


[This message has been edited by Shimazu Tokugawa (edited 11-20-2000).]

[The Daimyo]

Wow, that's pretty lame. I thought that the new league was going to be a NEW league, and not some carry over from the current F-Up of a league ladder.
I started doing the Tournaments at my site way back for this reason. I wanted to give EVERYONE the chance to honestly attain rank and climb a ladder(s) through the efforts that they put into it. That fell through for several reasons (but it's still there for those of you that want to participate!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif), and now here we are again, square one.
I have had over 15 clans and over 50 Ronin sign up for those tournaments, hell I'm still getting sign-ups for it from people who obviously just got off the boat. There's still people buying this game, and there's still at least a dozen newbies a day showing up to play on EA-Gay.
Server problems and peer-peer hosting problems are still a factor here. I have some friends who also play some other EA games of recent - via EA's service - and they have expressed some serious dislike for the SAME troubles that we have.
Rankings for RA2 are jacked, same thing with the Madden 2000/01 games, as well as a host of others that have been published in the last year. Disconnections and drops are rampant with these games as well. I smell fish here.
What I don't understand is why EA, which has been in the business forever, is screwing up something so basic and essential.
Another thing that's bothering me, as well as the rest of you, is the complete lack of presence by the developers. I'm referring not only to Richie, as of lately, but also to Ben, and the rest of the CA/DT team. It would be "prudent" of them to attend our site's forums, drop us an email or update about what's really going on, or even just show up online and say hello to the players. We are drooling at the bit for news and updates here, and we're getting a little worried.
OH By the Way - What's this I keep reading about - hmm..."Planet Total War's FIRST http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif Tournament"? WTH is that? Doesn't anyone remember that my site was the first to organize and run a Tournament outside of the Official League Ladders? (Hell, Richie should remember that, he posted up the news on it) We went 4 Rounds, with 2 different ladders, which lasted 6 weeks (2 weeks of noone being able to play due to the server f-up's!). That kinda chafes my hide. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif
Oh well, let's see what good we can all do on our own, seeing as to how some people aren't paying very good attention.

Bah! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif


------------------
The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@http://www.planettotalwar.com

[ShadowKill]

as a man said one time "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." It looks like it is going to be on us to make a system and form tourny's to see who is the better. I have been fumbling around with a few idea's but as it seem's we will not be able to count on the maker's of the game except for patches and F***** up reports as we see they spend no time in our community to see what is going on. anyway it is back to work for me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

[Methabaron]

I knew it,

I was suspecting that this new clan league was going to be based on the current "crap" clan rankings.

Oh-My-God.

They screwed up again, big time.

Let's hope they check these forums regularly enough so they find out and correct. But do not hold your breath guys. The kind of Tourneys the developers should support and organize are those similar to the one the Fearfullways clan did recently. You can also arrange for a "Gran Prix" style points method if they want and if a likely tourney is held regularly once every 1 or 2 weeks.

A REAL OFFICIAL TOURNEY

I think that one of the best options for an Official tourney Grand Prix would be to have a regular tourney once every 2 weeks or so. It should be a 1 day ONLY tourney to be completed in a go. The only way to keep this tourney short enough is to keep it simple and in single elimination as the Fears recently did.

The tourneys would have to have a standard format and repetitive patterns to be easy to track results and learn to organize better.

If the developers don't have the time/spirit to organize them, then I would strongly recommend let the community do it for them as the Fears did. The community organizers proposing a tourney then will get in touch with the developers who in return will decide to make it official or not in the official community website. Any tourney thus "officialized" would be validated and will enter the Grand Prix rounds.

Let's imagine that 3 or 4 different tourneys are organized by some different community members. If they become official (i.e. acknowledged by the community website) we could start a tourney rotation where every organizer takes care of a tourney in turns. and in every one of these official tourneys, points are awarded as per the "Grand Prix" system. After a couple of tourney rotations (that is after the 6 or 8 tourneys) then an overall winner is stated and the overall gran prix can start over again.

That would be the big scale Grand Prix event that I think is the most feasible at this point. Particular tourneys would have to be single elimination and in 1 day go to simplify (Fears style), that's key.

As I said, if the developers will not commit to organize such tourneys once every 2 weeks or so, then let the community do it !!!

Anyone can organize a Tourney and an owned website is not needed as long as the community website help publishing results.

What we need above all is a SINGLE POINT OF CONTACT http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif that would centralize all these tourneys to keep track of the overall Grand Prix.

I would volunteer to be responsible for the overall Grand Prix and also I would organize some of the particular tourneys myself.

Specifically I would like to hear from the Fears, from Miaow, the links and from Terazawa whos are the ones that I know that are interested in organizing tourneys. I would centralize all the results and transmit all data to the community website or any other that would help me publishing overall results.

Potential organizers will have to keep in mind that my idea is to standardize the tourney format, so all particular tourneys woukd have to be in that format to be in the Grand Prix scheme. The format that I would like to use in the Grand Prix is pretty much the one the fears used in their recent tourney. Other formats like the one of Terazawa are a bit long and/or complex to fit in the Grand Prix scheme and I would like to have their input first on the issue of standardizing the tourneys. Having said that I also acknowledge that we there is no reason why we should not be able to organize a Grand Prix where the different particular tourneys are of different formats (terazawa's, Miaow's, Fears's etc etc), as long as they are effectively organized and are fun.

Let me know what you think. I can start right away if I have the support from possible organizers.

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-21-2000).]

[Erado San]

MethaBaron, and all,

No, I did not expect a system based on a new ranking. I mean, blame anybody you like, but these are the only rankings around on EA's server. So they are the only rankings CA can work with. I don't like it that much either, but that's the plain facts really.

For improvements to take place, we'll simply have to make a very strong case. So, let's make one.

There's another two threads in this forum:


The online campaign can work - by Obake
A new batle scenario - by Magyar Khan
[/list]
These two threads express much of the views on online play that we have seen as long as the game has been on the shelves.

I intend to present such an online campaign as soon as possible. From that campaign we can get a simple ranking as well. If every legitimite Clan joins, they (Chain, Kenchikuka, Fear, Chaos, Ronin Alliance, Towashima and all) have the chance to prove they are the best. We can have an overall ranking and a ranking based on weekly or monthly progress.

This will do two things:


Prove that we want/need a better ranking system
Prove that an online campaign can work
[/list]

I suggest yo keep an eye on those threads and the developments that are quickly to follow from them.

[Methabaron]

Erado,

I honestly do not think that a multiplayer campaign online has something to do with the kind of tourney I am suggesting. They are two very different things and I for one hope that the official MP campaign is a reality some day.

By the way, if you speak some Spanish I can send you the set of rules we use in my campaign (turn based with army/koku equivalents).

This thread and my previous post in particular is about a tourney and not ladder ranks or MP Campaign.

Tourneys are fun because every one has a chance in it and because they will be held very often so everyone can try again. Further more, a Grand Prix style system is also suggested because that will make the tourneys have a common link.

A lot of interest has been shown by a lot of people in thses tourneys: Terazawa, Links, Fears and Planettotalwar have already volunteered to host one or admitted interest in doing so.

I think that organizing a serious Official Tourney is a goal in itself independently from the Multiplayer Campaign ideas shown in the 2 threads you mention. And it is also much more feasible... almost no developer time involved... no re-programming.. no re-calculation of ranks... just a couple of tourneys and some admin work (by me for exemple) to keep track of points. Much more easy and realistic than other long term and complex projects.

Of the 2 things we ALL would like to prove:

Quote a)Prove that we want/need a better ranking system

b)Prove that an online campaign can work[/QUOTE]

I thing that a tourney like the one I want to make happen will help with the first of those points: in showing the developers that we are really interested in ranks and competition.

The second point is a different subject and as you said is also under review in other threads in this forum

Methabaron

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-21-2000).]

[Erado San]

Hi Metha,

Yes, I speak some Spanish, but the rules have already been sent to me in English. And I find them very interesting and will take them into account in any further effort I am making.

Although your post did not deal with online campaigns, this thread has to do with Clan Leagues. Clan Leagues can and should be supported. From either a campaign based game where they are pitched against each other, or from a tourney style series of events. I will make an attempt at getting a campaign based idea going. Any other effort to do it with tourneys is welcome also.

The main thing is, while complaining about the fact that what CA/EA/DT do is not the way we want it, their resources at this moment (esp. time) are limited. So keep complaining if you want (not addressing Metha or anybody in particular here!!!) but we'll have to do it ourselves. That's a fact, sad but true.

Players make the community, and many dedicated fans have by now joined clans. I believe that the clans deserve some greater emphasis. I think that the Campaign idea will work to get them more involved and put some more emphasis on the clan based community. Not that players who don't belong to a Clan should deserve less attention. NO WAY!!!

[LinkEmperor]

Look at this ppl

if you reg. on EA playe, you should get a username...familyname, and a password.
And then you are a ronnin!

Yes thats right...
1) Thats eliminat one man clans, evrytime you get a new username.
Players have to cre8 a clan if they want.
2) And it should be ranking for singel players and 1 for clan-games, and you have to be 2v2 or more in a clanbattles, from the same clans. you can't join the clan-game if is has to difrent clans in the game.
3) -And not at last, haven't a player played league in 7 days he/she should lose 2 honour, and then 2 honouer for each day the player dosen't plate league.
4) -And Clans that haven't played for 14 days should lose the same.

IS THIS SO HARD TO DO?

LinkEmperor

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The members of the chain clan will unite all of the land.

[Methabaron]

Erado,

The rules you got from me where just the feedback to your reader !!!

The campaign I'm playing with some other fellow Spaniards are much more simple than that!!, lol

By the way, LinkEmperor is right (although you should be able to have a clan vs clan of 1v1...)

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Online games like Westwood's Tiberian Sun (yes, yes I admit it... I played TS) have a very good system for clan registration and online clan game set up and detection. Developers should take a look at those to improve the current sistem.

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-21-2000).]

[Link Shumeisan]

Metha,
Your idea is great (as always http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )
I think Chain can hold one of these Grand Prix tourney. You'll have an answer quick.
As you pointed I think too that these tourney should be standardized on some points. But can also be different on others as the amount of kokus, the map played (a flat one as there is not match/rematch), the units restrictions just to have differents style of games in the Grand Prix.

Erado I agree with you when you say
Quote
So they are the only rankings CA can work with. I don't like it that much either, but that's the plain facts really
[/QUOTE]
but I think that they can do better with the current rankings. I assume that the results are stored in a database, so why not create a Top 100 players of the week, month, top 100 attackers, Top 100 defenders, Top 100 players attacker/defender by map these are only queries and should not take more than a week (I think more less) to implement.

LinkEmperor suggestions are also good ones http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif but IMO they need much more work to implement.

[Magyar Khan]

i already contacted the webmaster of the .com site about this subject. i even rememberred EA CA promised SubudaiLives to solve this matter after the hassle with the first competition.

maybe some at EA are fan of Subudai too and want to see this Unbeatable back where he belongs?

i will contact Subudai about it....