How hard is modding just AI?

[dracop]

RTW2 has been getting me in the mood for TW and the engine looks amazing on the new Teutoborg walkthru. However, the game has gotten downright stupid in terms of AI (battlefield, strategy map, and diplomacy) over the last few games.

How hard is it to mod AI for these things in the previous games? I long ago figured out that if I simply scripted faction specific AI sequences I could create a mathematically driven AI that is FAR better than the garbage AI CA likes to put out.

Basically, I program the computer to weigh opportunities to take things important to a faction (setup a faction wishlist), create a running score in terms of desire to do something (+s) and costs/risks to do it (-s) to drive AI action. Funny thing, I can program it in Excel formulas using tables/arrays of commands based on state of the world, faction desires, etc. I just don't know what CA uses for AI (assuming there is more than 10 lines of behavioral scripting other than "Attack Player without regard").

I've also never understood the lack of a basic Battle AI - on defense, plant spears up front, have archers on skirmish in thin line up front, let them fall back behind spears. Swords in mid reserve, cavalry on flanks. Such a basic position yet the AI doesn't quite get the concept, choosing worthless formations that break morale and lose 3-4x casualties.

[Vuk]

It is a lot more complicated than that mate.

[Lemur]

How hard is it to mod AI for these things in the previous games?
Hmm, CA's line on this has always been that the AI of TW games is hardcoded. So modders can play with setups and conditions that bring out the behavior they're looking for, but supposedly modding the AI itself is a non-starter.

I seem to recall that this was the source of the big tiff between DarthMod and CA; didn't he claim to improve the AI, CA said "Nuh-uh," and he took his toys and went home?

Please feel free to correct and clarify everything I'm saying ...

[dracop]

It is a lot more complicated than that mate.

What a shame.

I was unaware of all of that history Lemur.

That really sucks, given they put zero effort into it, I wonder why they are hardcoding the AI.

[Lemur]

given they put zero effort into it
Well, that doesn't seem entirely fair. If they actually put "zero" effort into the AI armies would not move, soldiers would not attack, the campaign map would be static, etc.

It's one thing to say that you believe the AI needs a whole lot of improving; quite another to claim it doesn't exist.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Part of the problem, as I understand it, is that the AI has difficulty dealing with the complex campaign map. Now I haven't played STW2 as of yet, so I can't speak to recent developments. I do know that in the original RTW, something as simple as a counting algorithm was sorely needed to meet AI-led factions needs. It was so sad to see the AI creating huge naval fleets for a particular faction when that faction's cities were falling one-by-one for lack of ground troops.

The battlefield AI has also left much to be desired but I'm sure it's not an easy thing to program an AI to understand how to use all the myriad of troop types now available in TW games. In that respect, no AI will ever be able to compete with MP gaming......at least not yet:quiet:

[Myth]

Part of the problem, as I understand it, is that the AI has difficulty dealing with the complex campaign map. Now I haven't played STW2 as of yet, so I can't speak to recent developments. I do know that in the original RTW, something as simple as a counting algorithm was sorely needed to meet AI-led factions needs. It was so sad to see the AI creating huge naval fleets for a particular faction when that faction's cities were falling one-by-one for lack of ground troops.

The battlefield AI has also left much to be desired but I'm sure it's not an easy thing to program an AI to understand how to use all the myriad of troop types now available in TW games. In that respect, no AI will ever be able to compete with MP gaming......at least not yet:quiet:

The AI is much better in Shogun II. It can make amphibious landings, it uses massed fleets correctly, it marches stacks side-by-side and so on. It does still sometimes leave a good general alone whilst leading a stack with a newbie, but the game abounds in ninjas and geisha anyway so you don't see many generals surviving for more than 5 turns.

[ReluctantSamurai]

but the game abounds in ninjas and geisha anyway

I purchased the game....finally, and I have a new machine capable of playing it. Haven't installed it yet, but having geisha's again really pains me. They could be modded out of the original (of sorts) so hopefully there is a feature for turning this silliness off?

[Myth]

OK well the game doesn't really "abound" in geisha. The Ai will rarely have the tech and building to make one. Granted I've not played much S2TW that is. But ninjas - they are everywhere. I found ninja spam to be more enjoyable for me than assassin spam in M2TW or RTW, mainly because the death of fail percentage has been reduced very much, and they also gain levels.

[easytarget]

I've always thought one solution would be to expand the concept they already implemented with battles and the drop-in human player process they have in Shogun 2.

If that was expanded so that humans could take up the roll of the other clans in the campaign map, imagine the orders of magnitude more difficult that would make the game.

So if there was a feature where I could log in as I do now occasionally and surf for a game where I would take on the role of one of the other major clans in an SP game I'd find that quite a bit of fun. It would be on my own terms with regards to time frame, I don't have to be in the game for the entire campaign of course, and the person running their SP campaign would intermittently have human players playing the role of their competitor clans vying for control of Japan (and when no humans are available of course, the AI is in control). And picture how cool diplomacy would be, for the first time ever it would actually make sense. And picture how brutal and dangerous this other human controlled clan would be while they are in the game, talk about getting your attention, it would certainly get all of mine knowing all the behavioral ticks the AI exhibits and players abuse were suddenly not there and available for you to rely on, now the other clan fighting against you has true intelligence guiding it.

This is the true way to solve AI deficiencies, because in truth, there is no solution to AI deficiencies, because to call it AI even is to give it too much credit.