Can someone explain internal politics to me?

[Sp4]

How does it work, how do I make my people more influential, why do I keep losing influence when I assasinate, bribe, denounce and whatever else, everyone else.

[Profound]

How does it work, how do I make my people more influential, why do I keep losing influence when I assasinate, bribe, denounce and whatever else, everyone else.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but some diplomat was up to like 94 gravitas and I would actually gain influence if I married them.

[nearchos]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but some diplomat was up to like 94 gravitas and I would actually gain influence if I married them.

Do you mean a dignitary?
I wan't undererstand the internal politics either.
maybe its just waste of time trying to keep high influence within your state, in order to engage in civil war during the campaign.
But thats not right.

[Bramborough]

I haven't been able to make much sense of it either. It costs a lot of money and senate influence to bribe/assassinate/etc other families' members. The downside of such moves is obvious...the upside is obscure and ambiguous. The target loses "gravitas" (or is eliminated entirely), which I presume means that their family will then gain senate influence more slowly in the near future. BUT...you have to give up immediate Senate influence NOW in order to affect their ability to gain influence LATER. Whether or not you come out ahead in the long run is completely unclear.

On a much more fundamental level, it's not clear to me that Senate influence means much at all in the first place. About 150 turns into first Rome campaign, my family has had a low of 9%, and a high of 62%, currently about 55%. I have discerned no tangible rewards/penalties across this range, other than the ability to get some political rank character perks (such as praetor, etc). These are very expensive to the treasury, however, so am not sure they're even worth pursuing. By the time your family's general ranks up enough to qualify for the higher political posts (e.g., consul, governor), he's old as dirt and going to die off soon anyway. Other than that, I haven't seen any impact from senate influence on my faction's public order, military or economic performance, etc.

I'm going to keep playing around with different aspects of the family power politics for the remainder of this campaign, just to see if some "a-ha!" moment comes along which reveals why it matters. As my campaign goes on, however, I'm getting less optimistic that's going to happen.

Final note. Although it hasn't happened in my own campaign, I did get the impression from a pre-release review that one family getting high enough Senate influence triggers civil war. I don't yet know where that trigger is (or even if it really exists). IF that's true and civil war can be avoided, then perhaps it's worth paying just enough attention to politics to avoid that occurrence, but no more than that.

[Jarmam]

Then you're the lucky one, Bramborough. I had 70% or so Senate control *just* when my army cap was going from 6 to 9 due to my expanding in the barbarian northwest, when BAM "Senate Loyalists" got 6 stacks of fancy Roman troops right next to Italia - one of them was my own! They proceeded to completely wipe out 3 entire legions, leaving me no choice but to pull everything from the front (had 1 military province and that was Rome - 3 units per turn is not fancy with 90 units barrelling down your door ^^).

I am still not sure *why* this happened, but I imagine I had a mixture of a high ambition general combined with too much power in the Senate - or something. Either way it saved the campaign from getting boring. If only I understood why it happens, I would happily approve this system.

[Bramborough]

Yeah, even though I didn't really know what might happen or why, that one half-remembered nugget I read has kept me nervous about letting my senate influence get too high. Every time I've edged above 60% or so, I've married off some nieces to the other families in order to get back down to the low/mid 50's. I suspect this might be only truly important aspect of Roman politics, along with the probability that I presume 0% means you get fired. So I'm guessing that 0 is bad, 70+ is bad, and therefore politics really only requires attention when one strays outside, say, the 10-60 window. Within those limits, however, I'm still unconvinced that there's really any point to worrying about it. Is there a qualitative difference between, say, 25% and 55%?

This is still totally conjecture as far as my own campaign goes, and Jarmam's experience seems consistent with it. Anyone else out there with corroborating (or refuting) evidence?

[Hooahguy]

Heres how someone at the official forums described it:


Gravitas gets you internal power.

To increase gravitas you need promotions...so a general can be promoted internally as he gets stars. However, the AI factions get random promotions every now and then.

If you're main general is not from your family the other family will keep promoting him giving him gravitas and giving that family more power.

Characters get traits like Healthy which give gravitas per turn. Always check the traits of your member and other family members so you know who is your benefit and who is theirs.

More gravitas per turn means more power per turn.

Adopt, bribe or kill high gravitas opponents. Kill anyone in your family making - gravitas per turn. Ideally you need multiple gravitas in your family. Wives can also give turnly gravitas if you get an ex-vestal woman.

Don't worry about losing standing for adoption if the character your adopting has + Gravitas per turn, in their lifespan they will make two or threes time the standing for you.

If you're main opponent gets 'Wounded' assassinate again, he is more likely to be killed. Try and keep your main family member away from commanding an army unless you're at war. It is best if he is kept as a Statesmen because + gravitas stats are more likely, of course if you're at war make him the main attacker so he goes up in Stars...he can be promoted very fast this way.

Ultimately who your generals are won't matter until a civil war happens. If you're main general is from the opposing family at the start of the civil war he will stay loyal to them and fight against you.

You will lose power if you only use generals from your family though so only do this if you're at war and expecting many Stars and Promotions. If at peace use the other family as generals - replace these when war happens.

Also the AI will keep trying to adopt high gravitas people from you. Always block this at whatever the cost is, even if the cost is standing because the dude is making tons of standing for you.

Lastly, when war happens go for the youngest members of your family as generals first. Always start with the youngest members because they will increase standing for longer.

This game is not about the management of the individuals, it's about family management!

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/83982-Explanation-of-the-Internal-Faction-Politics

[Barkhorn1x]

Thanks for the link/info. And after reading all I can say is REALLY CA!?!? What the heck were you going for w/ this stuff?

[JeromeBaker]

I am playing Romans/Jullii faction. I cant seem to keep any of my Jullii generals alive very long as the other factions and outside enemy agents keep bumping them off. This forces me to use other internal families/houses to lead my best troops.

How are you guys doing keeping your house generals alive? Is there something I might be doing that keeps getting them killed?

[andrewt]

Thanks for the link/info. And after reading all I can say is REALLY CA!?!? What the heck were you going for w/ this stuff?

I know. This feels like one of the tacked on features that should've been removed from the game. Doesn't seem to have much cohesion with the rest of the game.

[JeromeBaker]

Will the senate loyalists eventually appear no matter what you do or is there a posibility that if you keep things somewhat equal between houses that you can avoid this?

[Bramborough]

Will the senate loyalists eventually appear no matter what you do or is there a posibility that if you keep things somewhat equal between houses that you can avoid this?

Initially I thought that managing my senate influence so as not to let it get too high would avoid civil war. Early this morning I discovered otherwise, and the fight was on. I had 55% influence at the time, which I'd maintained pretty steadily for nearly 100 turns, so I had thought it was working. Nope, not so much. I'm not prepared yet to say either "it's totally random" or "it's inevitable no matter what you do", but if it IS triggered by a certain circumstance, then I remain baffled as to what that circumstance is.

One thing that occurred to me: while I had maintained a steady 50-60% range of influence for a long time, I had only crossed threshold to the highest level of imperium (12 armies, 4 edicts, etc) only a couple of turns before. Perhaps that's a factor...maybe the civil war doesn't trigger until you're big enough to deal with it?

[Seyavash]

More gravitas per turn means more power per turn.

My question is what does this actually mean in terms of your campaign? Is your populace happier? Units cheaper? Or simply you get closer to civil war?

[AntiDamascus]

I have also never really seen an option for marriage. I never see women really and my generals come of age and die as bachelors I guess.

[Hooahguy]

I have also never really seen an option for marriage. I never see women really and my generals come of age and die as bachelors I guess.

From the faction panel you can marry off certain generals. Why you cant marry off anyone is beyond me (like I couldnt marry off my faction leader despite him being single), but that seems to be how it is now.

[Bramborough]

My question is what does this actually mean in terms of your campaign? Is your populace happier? Units cheaper? Or simply you get closer to civil war?

The only tangible benefit I've found thus far to having substantial influence is that you can trade in some senate support in exchange for political promotions for your family's characters. Tribune, Aedile, Praetor, Consul, Governor (maybe some others?). These carry some pretty decent trait bonuses, especially the higher ones. BUT...

In addition to costing Senate influence, these promotions also cost money, so they're a pretty big hit on the treasury as well...so am not sure they're really worth pursuing. Most problematic is that there are rank/age requirements...by the time your general has been around long enough and fought enough battles to have sufficient rank to qualify for the higher promotions (e.g., Consul and Governor), well heck, the old fart is about to die off anyway, so you've only got a limited number of turns to enjoy those trait buffs.

I got one general up to Consul and was working to get him to Governor, hurrying his legion toward my next enemy to fight the battle for his required rank-up. Dude was in his 60's already, though, and he died on the way. Kinda stopped worrying about promotions after that.

[Sp4]

I've had some people get ridiculously old. My first faction leader made it to 87, one of my druidesses got to 85 and some other general or mine is nearing 80. My current faction leader (an admiral) is also 78.

[AntiDamascus]

That's way better that when I played MII and a general would get to like 60 and die.

[Sp4]

Yeah in M2, 60-70 was the most people got. In R1, I can't really remember but probably around the same, maybe a little older. It's just kind of funny that my unstoppable Gallic Confederation is essentially run by a bunch of old farts who probably can't get on their horse on their own anymore (yet, one of them charges into the enemy in every battle ahead of his bodyguard of Oathsworn ~:rolleyes:

[AntiDamascus]

R1 seemed to get people older than M2 I believe. I remember at the time thinking it was odd that generals in olden Roman times were living to their 70s all the time. I know it was possible but always seemed funny.

[Lemur]

R1 seemed to get people older than M2 I believe. I remember at the time thinking it was odd that generals in olden Roman times were living to their 70s all the time. I know it was possible but always seemed funny.
The Romans understood sewage, and the importance of separating your feces from your food. Boom! Old age.

Lifespans for citizens were much longer in 0 AD Rome than, say, 1200 AD Rome.

[nearchos]

Initially I thought that managing my senate influence so as not to let it get too high would avoid civil war. Early this morning I discovered otherwise, and the fight was on. I had 55% influence at the time, which I'd maintained pretty steadily for nearly 100 turns, so I had thought it was working. Nope, not so much. I'm not prepared yet to say either "it's totally random" or "it's inevitable no matter what you do", but if it IS triggered by a certain circumstance, then I remain baffled as to what that circumstance is.

One thing that occurred to me: while I had maintained a steady 50-60% range of influence for a long time, I had only crossed threshold to the highest level of imperium (12 armies, 4 edicts, etc) only a couple of turns before. Perhaps that's a factor...maybe the civil war doesn't trigger until you're big enough to deal with it?
Perhaps it has to do with the turn you are, in my macedon campaign, a civil war occured in about turn 130 and beeing to the high level of imperium with 9 armies, and a steady influence of 53%.

I think its inevitable to engage in civil war.

[SwordsMaster]

I'm 166 turns in, and no CW. Influence is around 30%, and medium Imperium.

[ReluctantSamurai]

It's just kind of funny that my unstoppable Gallic Confederation is essentially run by a bunch of old farts who probably can't get on their horse on their own anymore

:laugh4::bounce:

In RTW 1, it wasn't uncommon for me to have a Germanic or Gallic faction leader in his 70's, whereas most other fl's died at 60 or shortly thereafter. I did notice that family members who were in charge of the garrison in a fort tended to live longer, though I never empirically tested this. It just seemed common for fort-dwellers to reach the high 70's and often 80:shrug:

[Sp4]

Must be the quality latrines ^^

[Slaists]

Is there a way to tell the age of a candidate before assigning him a generalship role? Tried mousing over their faces in the choice screen: no info...

[Bramborough]

Is there a way to tell the age of a candidate before assigning him a generalship role? Tried mousing over their faces in the choice screen: no info...

Nope, there isn't. Has been bugging me as well. One also can't see the character's gravitas/ambition, which are a factor if one is trying to avoid (or start) the civil war.

[Mr Frost]

Want to bet the system is broken ?

[Jonoleth Irenicus]

At present the Politics is irrelevant, especially when playing Rome.

It can be ignored all the way up to the CW and once the CW is in play, the politics do not matter at all.

[Sp4]

I really like the idea, it was just pretty poorly done. I haven't done yet but I think I'm gonna go look for a no civil war mod and just get rid of it entirely. It isn't challenging, it isn't interesting it's just plain 'Oh, you're bored? Here let's slow down your game for a little bit! *spawns 9 full stacks of elite units that will starve away in three turns*'

I just watched a friend of mine deal with a CW in a co op campaign and they kept his capital occupied for 2 turns before being dealt with by 3 of his armies (originally it was 3 vs 9 but then 4 of the AI armies p*ssed themselves away assaulting some navy)

[phred]

Someone posted about trying to trigger the civil war by initiating a Stalinist purge of the opposition. They bribed and assassinated relentlessly until the civil war triggered.
Rome rebelled but there were no rebel armies. He just marched an army into Rome and the civil war was over.

I'm assuming that he eliminated so much of the opposition that they didn't have any generals left to lead the rebel armies.
But I don't know for sure.

[Myth]

Someone posted about trying to trigger the civil war by initiating a Stalinist purge of the opposition. They bribed and assassinated relentlessly until the civil war triggered.
Rome rebelled but there were no rebel armies. He just marched an army into Rome and the civil war was over.

I'm assuming that he eliminated so much of the opposition that they didn't have any generals left to lead the rebel armies.
But I don't know for sure.

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/3/6/2/7/1/5/5/Joe-Stalin-thumbs-up-113849714263.gif

[Sp4]

Yeah that's who he's talking about. Now go and write a guide on how to internal politics. And do one explaining how to raise Generals too while you are at it :whip:

[unseendeath]

Internal politics seemed bit too complicated. Sometimes I wonder how the AI would handle things like this?

[Seyavash]

Someone posted about trying to trigger the civil war by initiating a Stalinist purge of the opposition. They bribed and assassinated relentlessly until the civil war triggered.
Rome rebelled but there were no rebel armies. He just marched an army into Rome and the civil war was over.

I'm assuming that he eliminated so much of the opposition that they didn't have any generals left to lead the rebel armies.
But I don't know for sure.

I did something similar, but delayed the CW rather than triggering it. Instead of bribing and assassinations I adopted everyone I could and spread rumors for most of the remaining members of other families to keep their influence low enough. I also tried to avoid assigning other family members as generals, instead I appointed them as admirals when needed. The civil war didn't occur until I hit the 4th imperium level (12 armies?) and since I had most of the generals in my family the senatorial stacks were small and fairly useless. In fact some of the other family members stayed loyal too.

[Myth]

I decided to play my new Rome campaign on cruise control. I only ever denied enemy adoptions and did nothing much either. I don't know if I have been overly negligent, or unlucky (I didn't get the white fawn, child prodigy or other beneficial family events) but I only ever had one family member and those worth adotpting died in battle or of old age before I could set some funds aside (curiously, my wars with Carthage and Lybia and later the two African tribes left my treasury strained and kept 3 legions occupied)

So I own Italia, Corsica et Sardinia, Magna Graecia, Africa, Lybia and almost all of Aegyptus at turn 61. I'd say a pretty timid expansion rate according to my standards (at my first playthrough I also owned Hellas and Makedonia as well by that time). So right as I'm dropping the hammer on Rhodos (who had wiped out Egypt 15-20 years ago) I get civil war. I own 3 fullstacks, consisting mostly of preatorians, auxillary peltasts and light cav. Rome turned blue, and it spawned 6-7 stacks (so almost double my standing armies) of equal quality. Right a turn 1 they took the 2 closest minor settlments to Rome.

Now, since Magna Graecia is my primary recruitment center, I'll at most be able to scrounge up 6 or 9 units before they come knocking. So I'll have to work with 3 and 1/2 legions versus double the odds... We'll see how it goes!

But since I noticed that Alexandria can recruit quality heavy cav with a tier 4 Aux barracks, and the minor settlement directly west of Alexandria can recruit ellephants with a tier 3, I'll at least be able to raise up some minor stacks with quality auxilia units if push comes to shove.