Building Slots

[Naughtius Maximus]

I've noticed a problem, or what I think may be a problem.

The building slots are limited in what you can build there- 102 turns in and I have the middle tier of Imperium and four really good legions.

Unfortunately, Rome as a city is something of a hovel; I can't build anything there that matters- i.e. aqueducts. I have 3 cities with aqueducts, libraries, level 3 barracks etc but nothing in Rome.

I have conquered Magna Graeca and no aqueduct there, either.

On a side note maybe I'll come back in a month or two when these things are fixed.

Additionally I'd have to say that the squalor thing is completely out of control.

[BroskiDerpman]

Don't have Rome 2 yet but from what I've seen the slots are really limited forcing you to make a ton of compromises. Which can be quite weird when your Rome doesn't even have half of what it has in real life.

I'd just wait for patches since as of now the game isn't worth playing except for laughing at the funny glitches to be honest.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Are the number of building slots determined by faction accomplishments/fame, etc., or is it still population based as in the first RTW?

[BroskiDerpman]

Think it's population or something along those lines.

Max seems to be 4 slots.

[quadalpha]

There's a line of city/town buildings (like castles in previous TW games) and each turn, they generate x amount of growth. When growth fills up, it adds one unit of 'spare population'. Building slots are opened up by spending these units of spare population.

[ReluctantSamurai]

each turn, they generate x amount of growth

And what determines how much "x" is? The reason I'm asking these questions is that it seems like some actual thought has to go into what gets built and where (much like the original Shogun with its' provincial bonuses, iron sands, etc.).

[quadalpha]

And what determines how much "x" is? The reason I'm asking these questions is that it seems like some actual thought has to go into what gets built and where (much like the original Shogun with its' provincial bonuses, iron sands, etc.).

I believe x is strictly dependent on the tier of the city/town building. I don't think organic population growth is modelled.

[ReluctantSamurai]

So everything works on percentages? And after reading this comment in a different thread, maybe there are some things to like about this game~;)


With careful planning, I'm sure some of them are worth it. But a wholesale "No yellow up-tick arrow goes unchecked" approach definitely spirals out of control.

[quadalpha]

So everything works on percentages? And after reading this comment in a different thread, maybe there are some things to like about this game~;)

Not quite sure what you mean by percentages. Let me give an example.

Province is Germania Minor, with two regions, Vesontio and Bagacum.

Vesontio is the capital and has a Roman Colonia from the city line of buildings, which gives +5 growth per turn. Bagacum has a Roman Village, giving +3 growth per turn.
The empire as a whole has +72 food, giving +5 growth per turn in each province.
The province has +47 public order, giving another +3.
One of the techs I have gives +1.
And finally, a general I have in the province has the trait 'Fertile' ('This man makes excellent choices in bed partners. And then acts on those choices.'), which, somehow, gives another +1, leading me to believe that he not only makes excellent choices, but makes them very frequently.

All that adds up to +17 growth per turn. It also tells me that I need 70 growth for next population surplus. The next building slot for my city would cost 7 pop surplus points. My town is currently maxed out, but it probably took 4 points to unlock each slot.

Basically, having surplus growth doesn't have any ill effects. You control when to upgrade your city/town, and all the penalties from that are factored into the negative public order and food they take up.

[Lord of the Isles]

I believe x is strictly dependent on the tier of the city/town building. I don't think organic population growth is modelled.

Yes, organic growth isn't modeled - population is abstracted in the level of the settlement as you say. But other things affect it too.

Growth happens at a province level (2, 3 or 4 regions per province). It seems to be based on 4 factors (according to the tooltip):



Growth bonuses from the main settlement building
Growth bonuses from certain other buildings in the province
Spare food production generated in the province
Some techs increase growth


The food in 3. comes from fishing ports, agricultural buildings and a few other specific buildings. I *think* that, unlike earlier TW games, there is no population for the game to calculate what food is surplus to the province's needs and can therefore be classed as 'spare'. Certain buildings have a food cost every turn. I think increased population is represented abstractly by the increasing levels of the settlement main building and by higher levels of other buildings - higher levels cost higher fixed amounts of food per turn.

The growth bonuses come sometimes from the main settlement line of buildings but also from the sanitation line (e.g. an aqueduct gives +2 growth, a sewer +4 - numbers from memory). A few other buildings do as well - one of the religious temples for example. Once the province has maxed out its building slots (see below), growth becomes 0 in the province. I have a game now where Hellas has 0 growth but one region (Sparta) only has 3 building slots available. It is the same level as Crete which has the full 4 slots. This may mean that some regions cannot grow beyond 3 slots but I'm not sure.


Background (for those without the game)

Each region has a predetermined number of slots available in that region. One region in each province is the main one (the province capital or city) which is the one that gets a normal TW seige when you attack it (walls, gates etc). The other regions have Minor Settlements (towns with no walls when you attack it, just buildings/streets/single capture point). The maximum number of building slots are:

Cities: 6 slots
Towns: 4 slots - though some may be capped at 3 - not sure yet.

The first slot in both cities & towns represents the settlement itself. As these get upgraded (sometimes you need a new tech researched to upgrade) they increase growth bonuses (and, depending on the culture, other bonuses as well) and also increase the number of total building slots available (up to the max numbers above). You always start the game with 2 or 3 (maybe some start with 4 or 5?) slots available.

The remaining slots in a region are divided into various lines. Towns are limited: you can only select the religious line, the agricultural line, a restricted subset of the military line and, where it is a coastal town, the port line of buildings. Cities can build in addition the full military line of buildings, city centre line, sanitation line, industrial line. But no agricultural buildings in cities (though some city centre line ones produce food). NOTE: this is Rome & Hellenistic factions - there may be minor difference for other factions/cultures. All buildings can be deleted down to an empty slot and you can rebuild a different line next turn (or leave it empty but soon a slum will form and it will cost you 500 coins to remove it).

The constant battle in developing provinces is to balance food and public order (squalor). Money and military bonuses are important too but mainly: some buildings give public order bonuses but cost food, and some give food bonuses but increase squalor (in other words, they cost public order).

[CaptainCrunch]

... Towns are limited: you can only select the religious line, the agricultural line, a restricted subset of the military line and, where it is a coastal town, the port line of buildings.

Are there no limits to the port line of buildings in coastal towns vs coastal cities? I've found that I can't access the Military Wharf structures outside of coastal cities, at least for Hellenistic provinces (all requirements met of course). Seems that it may coincide with the restrictions put on the military line of structures. Can anyone confirm this? I have regions with coastal towns all over the place where I'd like to upgrade my naval recruitment chains, but can only access the Shipwright line of buildings, and I have strong treaties with the cities in the provinces so I haven't taken them as well.

[Spoonska]

Here is the encyclopedia online : http://dsi0fanyw80ls.cloudfront.net/en/home , if you want to take a look at buildings. I spent almost all of yesterday playing around with the economics of this game and city planning. I'm not surprised so many people are confused by the system. It's essentially the shogun 2 system blown up. In Shogun we had "Town Wealth", and in this game that is split into Agriculture, Livestock, Commerce, Maritime Commerce, Industry, Subsistence, and Culture. I find the best route is to specialize your provinces with their city hub. Almost every province has some sort of specialization whether it be glassware, iron, grain, wine etc... if you read the tooltip it will tell you what type of commodities you're dealing with.

So glassware for example; it gives you +150 industry wealth. Ideally you want to build : Docks (+60 industry / +%40 Maritime Commerce), Tile Factory ( +600 industry, 16% industry on edict), Anvil Shrine (+40% industry). That gives you 810 industry x 56% for 1264 industry to be taxed. That's not including agent bonuses or general bonuses. That takes up only 3-4 building slots. Then you can tailor the rest of your province to culture or agriculture.

Just to take an example from the campaign I was playing yesterday. I took Macedonia a 3 settlement province that goes : Olive Oil - Market - Capital. Before I did any construction Macedonia was netting me about 1200 talents a turn. By switching that focus to Agriculture I pushed it up to 3100. I could probably squeeze out more with the right agents / talents etc.


This biggest part of trickeration comes in the balancing of public order (I always call it squalor), and your food supplies.

IMO too much food is a bad thing. Once you get your +5 Growth and 20% replenishment rate (usually around 20-30 food) you're good. Now, I might be totally wrong on this because the food portion of the game is my least studied area , but the keep it around 20-30 for that bonus has worked out really well so far. If you have a lot of excess food then you might want to consider changing up some of your buildings. IE LV4 Fishing post for a LV4 Trading post (Which adds 0 squalor). I might be totally wrong here, but it's worked out well for me so far.

For public order it's not as hard to swing as you might think. Agents specifically champions rallying your populace will add a decent amount of positive order. And you can build as many temples as you want (just not 2 in the same settlement). Foot shrine for example adds +4 order a turn while adding 10% wealth to all buildings. In a fully maxed town you're looking at having 40+ squalor so you need to plan for that.

[Lord of the Isles]

Are there no limits to the port line of buildings in coastal towns vs coastal cities? I've found that I can't access the Military Wharf structures outside of coastal cities, at least for Hellenistic provinces (all requirements met of course). Seems that it may coincide with the restrictions put on the military line of structures. Can anyone confirm this? I have regions with coastal towns all over the place where I'd like to upgrade my naval recruitment chains, but can only access the Shipwright line of buildings, and I have strong treaties with the cities in the provinces so I haven't taken them as well.

Ah, I forgot that restriction. You are right: towns can only build 3 of the 4 subsets in the port line: Trade port, Fishing port and Shipwright, but not the Military Wharf. The Shipwright subset is a kind of combination Trade/Military port with some warships but not as good as the ones from the Military Wharf. I found that out by trial and error when trying to get a Military Wharf in Neapolis (since Roma itself doesn't have a coastal port slot). Eventually figured out it was impossible and built the Military Wharf in the Sardinian Capital (Karalis?).

Edit: Also, towns just get up to level 3 in all port lines - only coastal cities get to build the level 4 upgrades.

[Lord of the Isles]

[snip]
The first slot in both cities & towns represents the settlement itself. As these get upgraded (sometimes you need a new tech researched to upgrade) they increase growth bonuses (and, depending on the culture, other bonuses as well) and also increase the number of total building slots available (up to the max numbers above). You always start the game with 2 or 3 (maybe some start with 4 or 5?) slots available.


I wanted to clarify that bit of my previous post. The level of the settlement (both in town and city) I believe increases only the potential number of slots available. But you do not actually get the new slots to build in until growth in the province has built up to the amount required to expand the settlement (create a new slot).

You get to choose which region to 'spend' the growth in (aka expand the city/town). The larger the city/town grows, the higher the level of growth you need for a new slot. So I might need 7 units of growth to expand to a 6th slot in Athens, but only 3 or 4 units of growth to get an extra slot for the town in Crete. When I reach 3 or 4 I can either spend it on the latter, or leave it to grow and wait to get the extra slot later in Athens.

On the last point about game start: most previous TW games gave you either empty, undeveloped provinces to start with or else ones with only one or two simple buildings. Rome II seems to start you with a lot more development already on the ground in the regions. Which, if you can afford it, you can change of course.

[Lord of the Isles]

Here is the encyclopedia online : http://dsi0fanyw80ls.cloudfront.net/en/home , if you want to take a look at buildings.

I think you are right about too much food being a waste and will try to spot at what point the food component towards growth gets maxed out.

Many thanks for that find of the online Encyclopedia. Since games get modified all the way up to release (and afterwards with patches) it isn't surprising when things like it have errors. One I just noticed is about the Workshop line:


Equipment
Civilised factions can explore the military equipment chain at their provincial capital, growing beyond the humble workshop towards production on a larger scale that improves the production of arms and armour.

Yet in the game you can build all levels of this line of buildings in towns as well as provincial capitals. The Training Camp line info is correct, however, since those can only be built in capitals.

[benjywa]

I would reiterate that the happiness is province wide but the food is factionwide
I am currently trying to juggle this with Sparta 50 turns in

Apolonnia has inf rax/ skirm rax and 2 workshop upgrades - pretty much everything else is trying to keep people happy enough
Pulpelona (Spelling?? is making food - lots of food wherever possible
Athens is making sanitation and city center stuff mainly with trade and cashola on the side - struggling to grow now but on reflection that may be because its already maxed

I would very much like to see how people are splitting their specialisations and keeping enough happy citizens - having a military sector is obvious but the rest is beyond me at the moment

[Spoonska]

Agents + Bread and games edict are the quickest way to boost your public order.

Deployed Champions can increase public order by up to +6.
Dignitaries can get a trait that will also increase it by +4.
Generals also have Virtue that increase it up to +6

Bread & Games starts off at +10 but can be increased with buildings like
Wine Town Center Lv.4 + 2
Wine Market (City Centre) Lv.4 +2
Temple of Zeus Lv.4 +4 (And +5 normally from the building)



There are also traits that your characters can get that will increase public order and also give a boost to B&G. Also if you have enough food consider building things like Trading Post that do not increase squalor but give you large financial gains.

[andrewt]

Cities are limited to 5 slots, including the settlement. Towns are limited to 3 slots. Ports do not count towards the limit.

[Bramborough]

Cities are limited to 5 slots, including the settlement. Towns are limited to 3 slots. Ports do not count towards the limit.

Ah...THAT explains something that's been bugging me. I'd been wondering why I couldn't get a 6th slot in Rome when I had other (coastal) provincial capitals with 6 slots. Likewise why some towns were 4 slots while others were only 3. Makes sense now.

[BroskiDerpman]

Interesting mechanics...

Essentially Shogun 2 blown out. Is population number any factor? Last time I saw it was in Empire.

[Lemur]

Cities are limited to 5 slots, including the settlement. Towns are limited to 3 slots. Ports do not count towards the limit.
Not entirely correct. Some towns have four slots, a minority have three. I think this may be an issue where a port counts as the fourth slot.

Likewise cities. If they have a port, they have six slots. Since we all know Rome never had a port of any sort (http://www.ostia-antica.org/), it has five.

[andrewt]

Not entirely correct. Some towns have four slots, a minority have three. I think this may be an issue where a port counts as the fourth slot.

Likewise cities. If they have a port, they have six slots. Since we all know Rome never had a port of any sort (http://www.ostia-antica.org/), it has five.

That's what I meant by ports do not count towards the limit. Think of it as a "free" building that doesn't consume a slot.

[Lemur]

Have to say, these limited building slots feel very "gamey" to me, and not in a good way. If I want to build Carthage into a sprawling mass of uncontrollable city, I should be able to do so.

Nothing epic about jugggling an artificially limited set of slots. It's anti-epic, in fact.

[AntiDamascus]

I haven't really checked but I assume that's to make provincial capitals more important?

[Lemur]

It's in the provincial capitals where I most mind it. Heck, my only real campaign so far has been as Carthage, so it's in Carthago itself where the anti-epic tendencies rub me rawest.

[CaptainCrunch]

Have to say, these limited building slots feel very "gamey" to me, and not in a good way. If I want to build Carthage into a sprawling mass of uncontrollable city, I should be able to do so.

Nothing epic about jugggling an artificially limited set of slots. It's anti-epic, in fact.

I agree, it could've been more involved. They spent time creating the animations for expanding cities, but actual development is oversimplified.

[Sp4]

Think it's population or something along those lines.

Max seems to be 4 slots.

No the max is 7 or 8 and Rome can have 7 or 8.. you just need to feed it more. I've had towns in the middle of the central European jungle with more slots than 4 =p

[Quillan]

Are there no limits to the port line of buildings in coastal towns vs coastal cities? I've found that I can't access the Military Wharf structures outside of coastal cities, at least for Hellenistic provinces (all requirements met of course). Seems that it may coincide with the restrictions put on the military line of structures. Can anyone confirm this? I have regions with coastal towns all over the place where I'd like to upgrade my naval recruitment chains, but can only access the Shipwright line of buildings, and I have strong treaties with the cities in the provinces so I haven't taken them as well.
The military shipyard line can only be built in provincial capitols, at least as Rome. The rest of them (trade port, fishing port, and docks) can be built in any coastal city. Some building lines are limited to provincial capitols only, some are minor cities only, and some can be built anywhere.

[Lemur]

The military shipyard line can only be built in provincial capitols, at least as Rome. The rest of them (trade port, fishing port, and docks) can be built in any coastal city. Some building lines are limited to provincial capitols only, some are minor cities only, and some can be built anywhere.
Not my experience as Carthage—in fact, I built a military dockyard in Lilybaeum so that I could quickly generate mega-fleets with the two military docks so close to one another.

[Lord of the Isles]

Cities are limited to 5 slots, including the settlement. Towns are limited to 3 slots. Ports do not count towards the limit.

Eureka! In an earlier post in this thread I'd speculated that increased level of settlement building (in cities and towns) allowed that 6th or 4th building slot to become available but since then I've realised I was wrong. And you have cracked it - a port gives the extra 'free' slot.

Except (possibly): I'm playing a game as Athens and Sparta's home region belongs to me. Not being coastal it only has 3 slots and now growth has stopped in the province so no more slots will appear. I wondered how tough that would make a start as the Spartan faction - no port and only 3 slots in home region - so I started a game as Sparta. While my home region only had 3 slots there was growth beginning which presumably would eventually lead to an extra slot.

Has anyone played Sparta yet for long enough to get growth to actually provide an extra 4th slot in their home region?

[Myth]

Using this (http://dsi0fanyw80ls.cloudfront.net/en/buildings/rom_Roman) I now have a much better understanding of what to build and where. It's interesting to see the differences in buildings between cultures. For example, the limited port options for Barbarians are compensated with expanded farming options, which in turn means that Barbarian factions actually don't suffer that much from being primarily landlocked, while the Romans and Hellenistic factions must seek the coastal provinces to make use of their great trade ports and temples.

OTOH some barb bonuses (iron/bronze smith) can stack up to create devastating melee infantry for example. The Roman tier 5 temple to Jupiter is something wondrous as well. The worst thing for me are the library line of buildings, and espcially Egypt's unique tier 5 Great Library. Speeding research by 50% means little if you can research everything you need in 50 turns.

I wish the research tree was expanded to something of the scope of Alpha Centauri (for those who have played it). That would really add a whole nother level of depth to the game.

[Spoonska]

Eureka! In an earlier post in this thread I'd speculated that increased level of settlement building (in cities and towns) allowed that 6th or 4th building slot to become available but since then I've realised I was wrong. And you have cracked it - a port gives the extra 'free' slot.

Except (possibly): I'm playing a game as Athens and Sparta's home region belongs to me. Not being coastal it only has 3 slots and now growth has stopped in the province so no more slots will appear. I wondered how tough that would make a start as the Spartan faction - no port and only 3 slots in home region - so I started a game as Sparta. While my home region only had 3 slots there was growth beginning which presumably would eventually lead to an extra slot.

Has anyone played Sparta yet for long enough to get growth to actually provide an extra 4th slot in their home region?

I can confirm with 100% certainty that it doesn't. If you have a town, but not the capital you still accumulate growth. Even if you're maxed out in your settlement. That accumulated growth can be spent once you take the capital.

In my campaign I took Segestica, and waited about 30-40 turns before taking Akink. When I marched on Singidun I had 11 total growth, and was able to expand my city twice once I had it.

[Spoonska]

Using this (http://dsi0fanyw80ls.cloudfront.net/en/buildings/rom_Roman) Speeding research by 50% means little if you can research everything you need in 50 turns.

I wish the research tree was expanded to something of the scope of Alpha Centauri (for those who have played it). That would really add a whole nother level of depth to the game.

The good thing about this though is Rome 2 has a great way of converting your buildings to something more useful once you don't need it. Town growth for example. Town growth becomes obsolete fairly quickly in a lot of towns. Aqueducts, religious buildings... all those that have modifiers that increase growth you can flip over to something like +food or +% wealth.

[Sp4]

Sparta wont grow beyong 3 slots, which is a little crap, seeing as your home region ends up being this little hovel of a town. Athens right next door is nice though ~D

[andrewt]

Isn't that historically accurate? Sparta was a hovel.

[quadalpha]

Suppose the city of Sparta to be deserted, and nothing left but the temples and the ground-plan, distant ages would be very unwilling to believe that the power of the Lacedaemonians was at all equal to their fame. And yet they own two-fifths of the Peloponnesus, and are acknowledged leaders of the whole, as well as of numerous allies in the rest of Hellas. But their city is not built continuously, and has no splendid temples or other edifices; it rather resembles a group of villages like the ancient towns of Hellas, and would therefore make a poor show. Whereas, if the same fate befell the Athenians, the ruins of Athens would strike the eye, and we should infer their power to have been twice as great as it really is. We ought not then to be unduly sceptical. The greatness of cities should be estimated by their real power and not by appearances.

3ch

[lars573]

Not entirely correct. Some towns have four slots, a minority have three. I think this may be an issue where a port counts as the fourth slot.

Likewise cities. If they have a port, they have six slots. Since we all know Rome never had a port of any sort (http://www.ostia-antica.org/), it has five.
psst Ostia-anitca was a seperate town.

[Sp4]

Isn't that historically accurate? Sparta was a hovel.

I must be one of the few people who doesn't give a shite about historical accuracy because I think the game is about rewriting history.. Right? At least that's what I like about it. I'd love a unit creation tool, where you could come up with new units for your empire and chose between weapons and armour and stuff and the game figures out a way to make them cost an appropriate amount of money.

On a sidenote, I think the unit descriptions in the encyclopedia is pretty lacking. In many cases, they just copy pasted stuff... Like anything about Hastati and Principes and their ship borne versions are like Paste text about manipular legions.. Then you get post Marius legions and it's like Paste text about Marius' reform.

Pretty much all of the different auxiliary troops description is the same and some descriptions have nothing to do with the unit they are about. This annoyed me since Fall of the Samurai, where the encyclopedia was stuffed with lots of useless and uninteresting information about... gun and the same thing was repeated for all different kinds of infantry.. with guns... ad nauseum.

[CaptainCrunch]

I must be one of the few people who doesn't give a shite about historical accuracy because I think the game is about rewriting history.. Right? ...

Mmm, I don't think CA does either :laugh3:

You're right though. 'Historical liberties' are part of RTW. The simple fact that we can take a faction to heights of power it never reached is ahistorical, why shouldn't we be able to develop cities beyond their historical limits?

On the other hand, it can be argued that it would greatly reduce the strategic & economic significance of capturing historically important cities from a gameplay standpoint.

[Sp4]

Mmm, I don't CA does either :laugh3:

You're right though. 'Historical liberties' are part of RTW. The simple fact that we can take a faction to heights of power it never reached is ahistorical, why shouldn't we be able to develop cities beyond their historical limits?

On the other hand, it can be argued that it would greatly reduce the strategic & economic significance of capturing historically important cities from a gameplay standpoint.

They seem to have taken a more cinematic approach to it, which I really don't mind. The game does look beautiful.