Mercs

[ReluctantSamurai]

Something I've seen very little mention of in campaigns here is the use of mercs. In R1, depending on which faction I played, mercs were a very important component of my armies at least in the early going. Even mid to late game, I used mercs just for the fun factor.

So my question is...are mercs just not that good or too expensive for what they might contribute, or are faction rosters good enough from start to finish?

[Hooahguy]

In my current campaign I hired about 5-6 units of mercs and it wrecked my economy. I had to disband them two turns later or I faced bankruptcy. As for effectiveness, Im not sure as I didnt really check their stats.

[AntiDamascus]

Bought a few but most of the time I don't bother. Mostly it's to get access to unit types I don't normally have yet.

[Quillan]

As Rome, typical italian spear unit costs about 85 per turn maintenance. The same unit as a mercenary costs 400 per turn maintenance. Recruiting (hiring) costs aren't outrageous, but the per turn cost is insane.

[AntiDamascus]

In my current campaign I hired about 5-6 units of mercs and it wrecked my economy. I had to disband them two turns later or I faced bankruptcy. As for effectiveness, Im not sure as I didnt really check their stats.


Yes to follow up on this. I would hire a few mercs to help take or defend a region and then basically disband them once the battle was over to save costs. It was cheaper to just rehire them again basically.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Recruiting (hiring) costs aren't outrageous, but the per turn cost is insane.


It was cheaper to just rehire them again basically.

I wonder why CA set up recruiting to basically discourage the use of mercs? Gameplay aside, Rome & Carthage both historically made extensive use of mercs, and I believe the Ptolemaics and Seleucids, as well. Seems counter-intuitive to have upkeep costs be higher than recruitment costs~:confused:

[Hooahguy]

If I had to guess its to discourage using a lot of mercs for ones army. Im not so sure about the historical validity of this, but it would make sense to keep the mercs hired for a short period, and the longer you keep them the more it will cost you, so recruiting them as extra manpower for that one assault on that city when you need more numbers is fine, but hiring them for a length of time more than one or two turns is really gonna cost you.

EDIT: I would actually love a system where the price which you hire the mercs for would cover two turns worth of service, so like if hiring some spearmen would cost 400 coin but the next two turns were upkeep free for those mercs, and after those two turns they would go back to requiring upkeep.

[Sp4]

I have only ever recruited two units of mercs in my Gaul campaign and decided they are too expensive to bother, especially early on, when I felt I needed the extra manpower. As Rome you get Auxiliaries. They are the same as mercs, just cheaper than for any other faction. Downside, you have to build a level two baracks in whatever region you want 'mercs' from but they literally cost nothing to upkeep. Like a tenth of what normal mercs cost.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Modern mercenaries (Blackwater etc.) commonly pull down salaries that are 4-5 times the total compensation provided for an equivalent soldier serving under national colors. In salary alone it is roughly an order of magnitude greater -- but the mercenary bears a far larger personal cost as equipage etc. is not paid for by the polity.

Since, given the game's engine, you cannot send your mercenaries off to sack Damascus before the rest of the army gets there in order to give them a bonus, it is likely that Rome 2 is factoring in their "share of the plunder" as well as a higher basic wage (mercs of the era were paid analogous to journeymen craftpersons at double the effective wage of a farmer/herder) in determining their higher upkeep. In addition, there is probably a play-balancing component to it, otherwise why would you develop anything economically or otherwise past a small initial area? Just rent an army and go plundering until all the other factions are dead, then go back and wax the wimpy rebels for the easy win. I recall doing more or less just that in Rome1 with its comparatively cheap mercs -- gamey as all get-out, but it worked.

[phred]

Carthage gets reduced upkeep for mercs. Their auxiliary barracks reduces fees also. Research may reduce the fees also; I can't remember exactly.
They may be the only faction that can consistently keep mercs in their armies.

There are even some objectives in the Carthage campaign along the lines of "Have 15 mercenaries in your armies."

[Bramborough]

Is there some terminology-mixing in this thread? Specifically, some of the comments seem to be substituting the term "merc" for "auxiliary".

In the Roman case, the troops recruited from the Aux Barracks line in Italia or Magna Grecia (Socii Hastati, Socii Equites, etc) are auxiliaries, not mercenaries. They are obtained with the "Recruit Unit" button, not the "Hire Mercenaries" button. They require 1 turn (or more, for a longer queue) to recruit. Once in the army, the color scheme of their unit cards is the same as for the other (i.e., true Roman) troops. The upkeep costs of these troops are consistent with Roman units, and it's quite viable to maintain these units in the army long-term.

Mercenaries, by contrast, are obtained using the "Hire Mercenaries" button, are instantly included in the army on same turn, and have a different unit-card color scheme (kind of an olive-brown vice red). These are the troops with the high upkeep costs.

This seems a pretty clear distinction. I have not, however, built (or kept) an Aux Barracks in provinces outside Italy. Does this distinction get muddled elsewhere? Does the presence of military buildings affect the number and type of hire-able mercenary (vice aux) units?

In any case, for a while I tried a model of forming a standardized "nucleus" of Roman troops in my legions, like 10-12 units or so, with the idea of temporarily buffing up those spots with mercenary troops for attacks (primarily missile troops and cannon fodder), then letting them go. This idea didn't work out for me because I usually found that when I wanted to hire mercs, often the unit types and numbers I wanted were not available in whatever province my legion was located.

[Sp4]

No, they don't ever get mixed up but auxiliaries are kind of fancy. I have a bunch of legions that have a core of some Italian cavalry and legionaires, and then it gets wild XD Some German longbow hunters here, some African spearmen there, some elephants and what not. I've got one legion that started out conquering Carthage and Lybia and picked up some auxiliary Numedian javelins. Later, they ended up in Germania and picked up some auxiliary spear brothers and archers, then they ended up in Spain and picked up some auxiliary Iberian cavalry and some Celtic horses and now they're literally a really colourful bunch ^^

[AntiDamascus]

Why did you just define what we all already knew?

[andrewt]

Yes, Carthage gets a straight up 40% reduction in upkeep and a 15% reduction through technology. It's still very expensive, though, until I pretty much got enough income to support it. Even then, the only mercs I have right now are slingers and bowmen, which are unavailable to the faction otherwise.

[Bramborough]

Why did you just define what we all already knew?

Because when I initially read through the comments in the thread, underlying assumptions of what "aux" and "merc" meant didn't seem consistent. Upon re-read, however, I was wrong....so I guess I was the only one temporarily confused.

[AntiDamascus]

Well then apologies from me. The post was a nice summation of the discussion though.

[Myth]

A unit of merc cav I hired as Rome I kicked out as soon as I saw it costs as much as 3 units of Pretorian Cohorts. The costs are prohibitive for anything other than a band aid solution for right before a clutch battle.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I recall doing more or less just that in Rome1 with its comparatively cheap mercs -- gamey as all get-out, but it worked.

Cheap compared to what? The mercs I preferred to hire were mostly 1000+ denarii to hire and several hundred per turn to keep (Bastarnae, Elephants, Sarmatian Cavalry) although I always thought "Creeshan Arshers" @ 750 were a bit cheap...


the only mercs I have right now are slingers and bowmen, which are unavailable to the faction otherwise


a band aid solution for right before a clutch battle

I certainly used mercs for the 2nd reason above, especially when a siege-relieving army turned out to be much bigger then I thought....

....but I mostly used them for the 1st reason; to get a unit that was unavailable to me normally. And I used them for a 'fun' factor, as well. Loved Arab Cavalry, those scimitar-wielding maniacs that could chase down any routing cav unit in the game under desert conditions; loved Bastarnae because they just looked cool, could run across just about any battle map and arrive merely "winded", and they had a knack for killing enemy generals; loved "Creeshans" for obvious reasons besides hearing that ethic retort when you selected their unit; loved Spanish Mercenaries (when playing a non-Roman faction) as a spear-chucking skirmisher unit that could switch to melee when needed......

And besides:


and now they're literally a really colourful bunch ^^

This!:laugh4:

[nearchos]

I used mercs in the begining of the campaign to conquer and fight battles with the ods against me and dispand them after.
I only keep the Cretan archers units, and later in the campaign, with the economy flourishing, any merc elephand unit i could get and scythian and parthian horse archers, as i think these are worth having in an army mostly Hellenistic as Macedon.
In general i agree with the point that as historicaly happened, you use them for a period of time and when you have achived your objective, you dismise them.

[nearchos]

Since we are talking about mercenaries, has any one noticed if there are dacian falxmen units in the game?
I think there are not any merc units but are there units available for the factions that originaly start at Dacia?
Just curious.

[Wilbo]

I think the Blackwater argument above is entirely valid, and it's much the same for IT companies when they hire a private contractor to do a specific piece of work - it's often cheaper in the long run to hire and disband a group of expensive contractors (often on 24hr notice periods), than hiring and then having to maintain (or make redundant) permanent employees.

As such, I often hire mercs 'in the field' shortly before a large battle or siege. I send them in first, and disband them afterwards. Wouldn't you expect higher pay for that kind of service?

[Sp4]

I either never have room in my armies to use mercs like that and if I do, I have no money.

[Bramborough]

As such, I often hire mercs 'in the field' shortly before a large battle or siege. I send them in first, and disband them afterwards. Wouldn't you expect higher pay for that kind of service?

How do you get around the problem that there often are very few, or even zero, mercs available in whatever province you've invaded? This is the dead-end which led me to stop trying to use this practice.

Finding mercs when/where you can use them for a turn or two seems more difficult in R2 than it was in R1.

[Myth]

I've stopped using mercs as I got better at TW games. I now plan my wars and fill up my stacks well enough to not need "oh damn!" troop reinforcemetns. Maybe if I meet more enemies than I expected and thus suffer casualties, I'd get them in R1 or M2, but since units magically auto-replenish here and one does not need to merge them to fiill their ranks, I can't do this and instead just wait for a turn or two (depending on how much food surplus I have).

[Sociopsychoactive]

I played through a Carthage campaign and used mercs a lot. THe initial costs are no problem at all, and while the massive upkeep costs hurt my econamy the reason for using mercs at all was simple. They appear instantly. Therefore I let my main armies go on the rampage with 10-12 units in them, the core units I need and no specialised ones, then hire whatever mercs fill the role the night before the battle and go on a killing spree. With carthage getting more mercs than most as well as local mercs it meant my 12 unit stack just bacame a 18 unit stack in the blink of an eye without the initial cost being that bad.

I tended to keep most of them around, but disbanded the specialised ones like chariots and elephants or shock cavalry.

On the note of auxiliaries...

Having the auxilia barracks in the right province allows you to hire units that are normally mercs as auxilia! Thats the entire point of it in my opinion! I made my legions up with cretan archers as the main ranged compnent as soon as I was able by taking Knossos and building ranged buff buildings and auxilia barracks. Sure, it took a while to recruit them all there and ferry them back to the main army staging grounds in italy, but it was definately worth it. Carthage can do similar things with it's version of the barracks, but still I found mercs filled their role very well as them.

As the barbarian factions I've hired a few mercs when I took unexpected losses, but on a very small scale and always just for the duration of that spate of conquering. My celtic army currently burning britain down has 5 merc units after an embarassing defeat and my units constantly dying of frostbite.

[Sp4]

I've stopped using mercs as I got better at TW games. I now plan my wars and fill up my stacks well enough to not need "oh damn!" troop reinforcemetns. Maybe if I meet more enemies than I expected and thus suffer casualties, I'd get them in R1 or M2, but since units magically auto-replenish here and one does not need to merge them to fiill their ranks, I can't do this and instead just wait for a turn or two (depending on how much food surplus I have).

Yeah it's a little silly right? I don't think units should replenish this quickly.

-E- Especially very specialised and 'high tech' units you recruited someone on the other end of the world.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Having the auxilia barracks in the right province allows you to hire units that are normally mercs as auxilia! Thats the entire point of it in my opinion! I made my legions up with cretan archers as the main ranged compnent as soon as I was able by taking Knossos and building ranged buff buildings and auxilia barracks. Sure, it took a while to recruit them all there and ferry them back to the main army staging grounds in italy, but it was definately worth it. Carthage can do similar things with it's version of the barracks, but still I found mercs filled their role very well as them.

This is what I am talking about. Mercs should cost you plenty, no questions there, but if the approach to mercs is hire/fight/fire, then maybe mercs should come with some buffs like exp. chevrons or upgraded weapons/armor (in R1 some mercs actually did come with one & sometimes two exp. chevrons). In R1 I kept certain types of mercs (Bastarnae, Elephants, Sarmatians, Spanish Mercenaries, Cretan Archers, Arab Cavalry) and used them extensively to get them exp. chevrons. It added to the flavor of the game for me, like playing the Scipii and landing back in Latium at civil war times with my desert forces from N. Africa. It was great fun to stuff my Ellies down the cohorts throats and have my Arab Cavalry trash any cav the other factions wanted to throw at me:devilish:

[antisocialmunky]

Man, a VH merc only variant would be a pretty entertaining to read about.

[hoom]

The auto-replenishment & especially the rapidity of replenishment makes mercs largely irrelevant for me so-far.
You can have a bunch of units knocked down to only a couple of guys in a hard fought battle, yet no matter how far from your main recruitment base they'll be back up to full strength in 3 turns max.

eg In my Sparta campaign, I've only got T4 barracks in Sparta yet my Heroes of Sparta, depleted heavily while taking the most Eastern town were fully recovered in 2 turns.
I did lose about 6 units outright in one battle & had to hire whatever mercs were available to avoid disaster while sending a new stack.
Also did hire a couple early on partly while just experimenting on how recruiting works.

Back in Rome1: RTR/EB a deep campaigning army would often wind up heavily supplemented with local mercs as my faction units were depleted & merged.
Supporting long range operations could be quite expensive as you would need to be both fielding a large army and significant reinforcement forces on their way to the front or risk your force petering out.

Perhaps if the auto-replenishment was a bit less aggressive ie took longer like 4-5 turns + extra length the further from nearest base you are, then mercs would be a lot more useful.
I haven't even bothered to test if you can still merge units within an army...

[Hooahguy]

On a slightly related note, anyone able to merge units? I tried to a few times but no luck.

[Veho Nex]

I think a decent way to balance mercs would be if you had them sitting in a province playing police force then you could expect higher corruption and lower upkeep. If they were constantly on the attack then you get lower income from sacking a city while again reduced cost. The only time when you have the stupid high upkeep is when they arent in a city or on the attack.

[Sp4]

So paying for them in other ways than simply upkeep lowers their cost? Interesting, I'd like to do business with you.

[Kamakazi]

I have a few merc units I consistently keep just to have them. My economy can sustain them so I might as well keep em around. Ill pick up extras if I need more ass in an assault but after that its back to the woods for the little mercs

[nearchos]

On a slightly related note, anyone able to merge units? I tried to a few times but no luck.

I tried too with the same results, nothing.
I believe there isnt such option at all.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Perhaps if the auto-replenishment was a bit less aggressive ie took longer like 4-5 turns + extra length the further from nearest base you are, then mercs would be a lot more useful.

An excellent idea, IMO:2thumbsup:

[Myth]

On a slightly related note, anyone able to merge units? I tried to a few times but no luck.

Can't be done because of the Shogun 2 auto replenishment feature. I hate both of these. I'd rather merge units and recruit new ones than having double gold chevrons Pretorians replenish in the Sahhara desert.

[Hooahguy]

Can't be done because of the Shogun 2 auto replenishment feature. I hate both of these. I'd rather merge units and recruit new ones than having double gold chevrons Pretorians replenish in the Sahhara desert.

Apparently you can now, its ctrl-m.

[Slaists]

1. There are technologies, buildings, faction features, army traditions and generals' skills that lower the cost of mercs
2. Without the above, mercs seem to be a cheap option to boost your assault armies (or any armies before a battle). Their hiring cost is low, but upkeep is huge. So, hire them, fight the battle and disband

As to merging, CTRL-M works. Need to select the two units that you want to merge, then press CTRL-M. Unfortunately, does not seem to work with the whole army selected.

[Sp4]

Why would you ever want to merge if it takes literally 2 turns for even an elite stack to replenish fully after a crushing defeat around mid game?

[Myth]

Yes, if you have the food surplus to support it. If not, and you need to win a do or die battle, you want to merge. Also, i'd rather defend a major settlement with 10 full units who have experience chevrons than a 20 stack of mostly depleted units.

[ReluctantSamurai]

As far as merging merc units is concerned, I would rather see a system where you can only merge units that were recruited from the same province.

For merging organic units, any two alike should be ok.

And this is insanely stupid:


having double gold chevrons Pretorians replenish in the Sahhara desert.:crazy:

[Myth]

Or having Royal Spartans replenish on their own in the Alps as my latest campaign can attest :laugh4: