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williamsiddell
07-29-2014, 08:54
Greek Cities is a breeze. Lots of early ports with Colossus. Many Greek culture cities to take. Early access to a bunch of wonders.
Gaul starts with some very good cities.
Egypt ditto and again early access to a bunch of wonders.

For my style of play Britons and Germans don't seem suitable because of city promotion limits (but still considered).

Otherwise which faction is the most difficult to win with?

ReluctantSamurai
07-29-2014, 13:59
I'd like to remind you (kindly, of course~;)) that this forum is for faction specific discussions, or other aspects of gameplay. Topics like this one really should be posted in the main forum.

That said, Parthia is the most difficult, IMHO. Crappy infantry inherently, and no other way to get any except mercs. Only get one temple, and not a very good one, at that. Starting position is precarious. Except for Susa, starting cities are poor and slow 'growers'. Seleucia gets you a good city and the "Hanging Gardens", but gets you into a war with one of the richer, and more powerful factions. The Big E will be on that list shortly.

When I've played them, I go straight for Seleucia, abandon Sakae (it's just too far away to control, and too poor to be of much worth), and concentrate on getting cavalry barracks developed, ASAP. Persian Cavalry are a decent horse archer, but not in the same class as Armenian CA's or Scythian Nobles. Heavy Cats, Ellies, and Persian Cavalry are your mainstays.

Scythia is difficult, as well, but you get serviceable infantry, and the second best horse archer in the game...Scythian Noble Archers. You also get a decent heavy cavalry in the Scythian Nobles, and the Head Hunting Maidens are no pushover, as they use an axe as their main weapon so get an armor-piercing attack. The Scythian Noble Women have a decent missile attack, but the unit is too small to be effective and are not as good as the Noble Archers. The Chosen Archer Warband has to rate in the top 3 for foot archers...equivalent to Germania's/Dacian Chosen Archer.

Distances are huge, and Scythian territories have the highest rates of brigands, in my experience. You pretty much have to have a roving army of generals and horse archers to get to them quickly. When I play them, I abandon Alanni and Sarmatae for the same reasons I let go of Sakae for the Parthians...too poor, and too far away to control. I take those troops, capture Chersonesos, and take Getae from the Thracians in preparation for expansion into Greece. It's a difficult campaign, but not as hard as the Parthians.

Numidia is also pretty difficult mostly from the starting position. Whomever on the dev team that started the Numidians off with Siwa, needs a history lesson. But it's easy to stay away from the Big E for awhile by abandoning Siwa...take those troops and capture Lepcis Magna before the Romans get there. Speaking of the Romans, Numidia needs to get a strong navy up and running, ASAP, because there's no way you can deal with the constant stream of Scipii landing in NA with Desert Infantry and Militia Cavalry. Easier to sink them enroute until you get Long Shield Cavalry and Ellies. You eventually get a Legionnaire clone roughly equal to the Principes, and they become your mainstay later on. It goes without saying that Carthage has to be booted out of Carthage and Thapsus. Again, a difficult campaign to start, but if you can overcome Carthage, and sink anything remotely Roman that gets near your coastlines, you can start to roll.


Germans don't seem suitable because of city promotion limits

Germania is easily the best barbarian faction to play, IMHO, and the one I play the most. Excellent infantry roster (Spear Warband, Bezerkers, Chosen Axmen, Night Raiders, Naked Fanatics), the best foot archer in the game (Chosen Archer Warband), and an excellent selection of Cavalry (Barbarian Nobles, Gothic Cavalry). You get decent temples one of which is a good 'growth' temple (Freyja). The choice for the other two (Donar, and Woden) depends on what troops you want, as many of those choices are temple dependent. You are far enough away from the Romans to not have to deal with them right off, and can set about crushing Britannia and Gaul. Eventually you will have to deal with the Romans, but Germania has the roster to fight well against post-Marian Roman troops (Zerkers, when jacked up with bonuses and a good general, can shred even Urban Cohorts). Anyway....I love these guys~:grouphug:

williamsiddell
07-29-2014, 18:07
this forum is for faction specific discussions

Finally, I've got it! I should discuss a specific faction here. But if it's factions in general discuss elsewhere :) This forum thing is complicated.

You're a walking Wiki RS.

Your Parthia description paints a picture opposite to my preference (fast growth and never upgrade barracks). OK it's next on the list.

Germania after that. I've never fought a strong Germania so was unaware of the strengths.

Numidia and Scythia. Don't fancy plodding the desert and facing Roman hordes, nor trudging long distances in Scythia (I hate giving up cities).

ReluctantSamurai
07-29-2014, 20:02
Your Parthia description paints a picture opposite to my preference (fast growth and never upgrade barracks). OK it's next on the list.

Whatever you do, stay away from the Big E for as long as possible. You have neither the starting roster, nor the money to fight them off for long. I once had a very nice Parthian campaign going (so I thought) until Palmyra went rebel on them and booted the garrison out. Much to my surprise, I had a boatload of super-peasants and some horse archers flying the Parthian banner:no: I considered just taking the entire stack and heading for Seleucia (which was under my control at the time) but the city was still mine, and when Egypt sieges and captures it, we're still at war. So I fought off the initial siege until another stack showed up and wiped out what was left. Suddenly, they make peace with Seleucia, and turn their full attention on me. Guess what Seleucia does with their temporary reprieve? Yeah...bad enough to be fighting the 'Golden Horde' but now the Seleucids want their city back.:sweatdrop: Needless to say, I got crushed. So when Egypt captures Palmyra, make sure you save your game and reload if the same thing happens (most of the time the city remains rebel if Egypt gets tossed out). Also make sure you grab Phraaspa before Armenia gets there (you are closer and can do it your first turn). Then...make sure they leave. You start with two heavy Cats to their one, and have a better general, so if they offer battle, you should win. I know Phraaspa is piss-poor, but it becomes too tempting for Armenia to be that close to your capital not to attack, and you need Seleucia ASAP.


Germania after that. I've never fought a strong Germania so was unaware of the strengths.

I think you'll have fun with them...I know I do. What's not to like about their roster?

Numidia is pretty boring, but Scythia is actually quite fun. If you follow my suggestion of abandoning Alanni and Sarmatae and going for Chersonesos and Getae, you can be in Greece proper before the Romans get rolling, and once you get to Scythian Nobles/Archers, the Romans can't stop you. Too bad I deleted my only Scythian game-save (accidently:shame:) or I could show you some screenies. I owned all of Greece and was preparing to invade "The Boot" when it happened, and I didn't feel like replaying the whole thing. I haven't played them since, but it's been awhile and I just might have the patience to have another go....:whip:

If the long distances get to be a pain (I just used older generals and 'retired' Scythian Horse Archers to clean up brigands), you can always leave the steppes to the brigands. You should have all of Greece by then (kinda like Visigoth invasion:shrug:) and be heading for Italy, so it's not like you need the income from those places....

Oh, and btw...Carthage can be a handful. Everyone and their grandmother wants a piece of you (Gaul and Spain in Iberia, Numidia in N. Africa, and the Romans and Greeks on Sicily) but you gotta use your Ellies and have a strong navy, at the start, or you won't survive.

williamsiddell
07-29-2014, 20:57
From the outside looking in it seems everybody (including Egypt) attacks the Seleucids. They have several tasty cities ready for picking. So already I have been thinking of heading North at the start as Parthia and leave/take Seleucia depending for me on how things are panning out. What you say explains why I've seen Phraaspa in the hands of both Parthia and Armenia - It'll be Parthia in my game :)


you can always leave the steppes to the brigands

That would suit. If I can't afford to bribe I tend to leave them til I have an army passing on other business. A brigand killer posse sounds interesting.


Carthage can be a handful

That explains why I always find it easy to get a ceasefire with Carthage - they're already under heavy pressure.

ReluctantSamurai
07-30-2014, 01:30
So already I have been thinking of heading North at the start as Parthia

What in the blazes for~:confused: There's nothing up there but long stretches of open steppe, brigands, and really poor cities...

You should abandon Sakae immediately (put them into the single bireme that you own and will ever need) and head them South. If you want to play a waiting game with Seleucia, take out the Armenians. Pontus will either attack Seleucia or you, in that case. Both are good things...your horse archers will run circles around eastern infantry, and they won't have enough Pontic Heavy Cav at this point to matter much. You'll have to get into it sooner or later with the Seleucids...better to make it sooner when they are weaker:shrug: Susa takes a looong time to reach the point where you can train Persian Cavalry and then Cats & Ellies. Seleucia (the city) gets you there much, much sooner.

williamsiddell
07-30-2014, 08:34
What in the blazes

I did say I was looking for a test. High level: take Armenia, Pontus and Asia Minor. Then attack in three different directions - Scythia, Greece and Egypt. I don't know if this is practical but that is the plan (flexible of course). Then south through the little cities to Memphis and the pyramids.


Susa takes a looong time to reach the point where you can train Persian Cavalry

I wouldn't know that, would I? I'm not keen on attracting attention early by taking Seleucia unless I have no option.

ReluctantSamurai
07-30-2014, 16:27
I did say I was looking for a test.

Aye, you did. And tested you will be Jedi....:sweatdrop:


I wouldn't know that, would I?

I would've thought with your attention to detail that you'd have looked to see at what city level you get to build which barracks......~D


I'm not keen on attracting attention early by taking Seleucia unless I have no option.

I have seen Seleucia target Susa while in the midst of getting pounded by the Golden Horde, so keep an eye out for a backstab.....they are Greeks afterall:quiet:

williamsiddell
07-30-2014, 18:01
Ha ha.

They don't know what's coming their way. And I'm trying to play Parthia as an innocent.


they are Greeks afterall

You just don't understand them.

I'm gonna start Parthia tonight. The GC VH/VH is too familiar. This might surprise you - it's playing easier. The AI seems to be eh, absent. I'm well ahead of where I would expect to be - mind you I've had to change strategy.

ReluctantSamurai
07-30-2014, 20:30
You just don't understand them

Oh I understand them, alright...scheming, dishonest, backstabbing S.O.B.'s:stare: Never, ever, trust a Greek faction. People like to comment that the Romans are never to be trusted...and that's true. But....

....the Greeks have backstabbing down to an art. I had a Carthage campaign awhile back where it seemed convenient to keep them around. I figured to use them as a temporary buffer against the Romans until I had completed my campaigning elsewhere. I gave them a couple of cities, some cash, and granted movement rights through my provinces so they could get from one to another of their split holdings without having to stop next to one of my cities. All well and good. They behaved themselves quite remarkably for perhaps a decade, and were actually doing what I had set them up to do....keep the Romans occupied for awhile.

When the backstab came, I guess I wasn't too surprised but what pissed me off even more was the way it was done. Not in a warrior act of courage by besieging a city, but a little chicken$%#@ port blockade by a single bireme that ran away the following turn. Needless to say, you can guess what happened next~:wave:

williamsiddell
07-31-2014, 09:52
Oh I understand them, alright

Naw, naw. You just don't understand them - cos they speak Greek :)

Those dirty, sneaky, underhand, thick Greek gits!

Played the first five turns of Parthia VH/VH. Avert your eyes if you're finding this too radical :)

Spotted right away I was short of cash and lumbered with poor units. I'll explain my setup and then not bore again unless summat interesting happens.

Turn one. Largest costs associated with the army being too big. Disbanded all cavalry and slinger in Sakae and built a peasant. Left the general there for public order and 90 admin. Similarly in Susa. Formed my main army at Arsakia and headed for Phraaspa. Sent the spy north and the diplomat south. Emphasis on cash buildings and sold unneeded military buildings.

Turn end: Got rebels outside Susa so reloaded.

Turn two: Took Phraaspa. Concentrated one roads, ports, traders and markets. Built other peasants for Sakae and Phraaspa.

Turn end: Both Armenia and Scythia offered trade and maps for nowt.

Turn three: As above. Cash improving. Disbanded the boat. Kept my army in Phraaspa. Trade rights and alliance with Seleucids.

End Turn: Leader died so reloaded, but have to live with a rebel outside Susa that appeared. New general in Phraaspa. Built diplomat in Arsakia.

Turn four: Moved toward Artaxerta. Spy showed barracks no better than mine. Moved diplomat toward Armenia.

End turn: Armenia moved an army to block access by my troops.

Turn five: Bribed Armenan army and got two units then assaulted Artaxerta - gates open and taken. They had built a better barracks so now I can build hillmen. Oh joy. Enslaved and boosted Phraaspa, Sakae and Susa. Will now move my generals out and start building watchtowers. Heading for Kotais soon.

ReluctantSamurai
07-31-2014, 12:50
They had built a better barracks so now I can build hillmen.

Yeeesh. Hillmen are worthless, IMHO. All of the disadvantages, and none of the advantages of Eastern Infantry.


Bribed Armenan army and got two units then assaulted Artaxerta

I take it you snagged their Cataphract unit? It's what I do, if that's the case. Better to have the unit fight on your side than against....

williamsiddell
07-31-2014, 17:19
I take it you snagged their Cataphract unit?

Nope. I take it because I didn't own a qualifying stable. 262bc - Armenia long gone and making 4k per turn. Abandoned the idea of attacking Pontus so aiming south instead. Two things - I've built a large number of watchtowers to cover the huge area those few cities cover, and interestingly there is a group of rebels causing no devastation in Sakae. I think they were there from the start and they keep more away - so they stay.

ReluctantSamurai
07-31-2014, 17:36
Armenia starts with a single Cat...you should have started with two--designers decision. Has nothing to do with available barracks. You can't replace losses, of course, until you have the appropriate barracks.


Abandoned the idea of attacking Pontus so aiming south instead.

Keep an eye out (watchtowers or spy) along the road from Sinope to Kotais. It's Pontus' favorite invasion route if they don't try for Tarsus first. They will attack you sooner or later, but it will be later if they join the Seleucid feeding frenzy. After that, watch for a Pontus-Egypt alliance. Happens more frequently than not, so if you decide, at a later point, to attack them (or they attack you), watch out for Big Brother:sweatdrop:

williamsiddell
08-03-2014, 14:08
Parthia VH/VH 244bc

Parthia: The towns around the inland sea only sea trade with one other town, so no need to upgrade a port. Susa the top city with 22000 and zero growth (courtesy of slave boosts).

Armenia: Long gone, but against them I won my first horse to horse battle.

Selucids: I'm used to them disappearing like a Cheshire cat, but they've expanded this time. They allied with Pontus, Scythia and eventually Egypt, then attacked me. Their troops back off as though not keen on fighting my horse. Selucia and two small towns taken.

Pontus: As predicted they sent a bunch of armies against Kotais. I was forced to build a small army and had 3 heroic victories before taking Sinope (20k size, enslave boosted other towns, can now build cataphracts).

Egypt: Have three large armies just inside my borders but not doing anything. My assassins are busy. Getting ready to attack them starting with Palmyra.

Scythia: No activity.

ReluctantSamurai
08-03-2014, 16:51
:2thumbsup: Sounds like you are having fun with it.....

williamsiddell
08-03-2014, 22:26
Aye, It's highly entertaining. The long-lasting horse archers are deadly in battle. Highlight so far - watching an Armenian scythed chariot running amok and killing the enemy leader, forcing another scythed chariot to go amok and both decimating their own troops :)

ReluctantSamurai
08-03-2014, 23:22
Highlight so far - watching an Armenian scythed chariot running amok and killing the enemy leader

Now that would be a highlight...except Armenia doesn't get scythed chariots:quiet:

~;)

williamsiddell
08-03-2014, 23:41
Armenia doesn't get scythed chariots

Ooops, Pontic outside Kotais.

williamsiddell
08-04-2014, 15:42
Seleucids and Egyptians are continually backing off. Example: Egypt has 5 full armies in the Palmyra area (inluding 2 on my territory causing high devastation). So I plant my own size 20 army adjacent to the two hoping to be attacked at turn end. No attack and one of the armies backs off. When I attack the other it retreats and I follow up.

It seems I should be using half size armies to see some action :) That means a complete change of strategy, so instead of feeling I've been wasting conquering time, I'm gonna restart the game (and take account of other minor things like port upgrades being unnecessary in some cases). I also feel short of generals and several of the ones I have are rather elderly - so I'll be looking at that too.

ReluctantSamurai
08-04-2014, 22:10
I also feel short of generals and several of the ones I have are rather elderly

I've found the game to be extremely stingy with family members, at times. I had a Seleucid campaign once where I had conquered some 15 territories beyond my original 5 and I had exactly 3 family members left. I hadn't lost any in battle, none to plague, and none to bribe. All the potential husbands for my daughters were in their late forties or older, so I passed on all of them. I considered bribing a few, but there weren't any brigand generals, and most of what Egypt had left was crap. The AI does make adjustments, however. I got three consecutive "Man-of-the-Hour" events in three rather insignificant battles. MotH generals tend to be very good (3-star, usually) so I could finally get my family tree up and running again....

williamsiddell
08-04-2014, 23:09
I had exactly 3 family members left...and none to bribe

I couldn't handle that - I've certainly been spoiled by Greek Cities. I need 'spares' for my nefarious slave boost activities and I accept all proposals in the hope they'll start breeding immediately :)

MotH seems like a good option for Parthia - I'll have a go.

Vincent Butler
08-06-2014, 00:56
Just hope the rebels do not take the towers over. If they move onto the tower you will lose the sight that tower gives. I don't know if that works for opposing factions as well. I don't remember, I thought Hillmen were better than Eastern Infantry. Why else would they be in a better barracks?~:confused: One thing about Parthia, you don't have to invest in barracks, stables and archery range, just stables and archery range. That saves some money. Merc Hoplites would certainly come in handy for garrison duty.

ReluctantSamurai
08-06-2014, 13:21
Just hope the rebels do not take the towers over.

Is that even possible? I have never seen a watchtower change hands except if a different faction other than the tower builder occupies the province. I don't think you can even move into the coordinates occupied by the tower:shrug:


I don't remember, I thought Hillmen were better than Eastern Infantry.

Don't ever recruit Hillmen unless it's a dire emergency. They have all of the disadvantages of Eastern Infantry, and none of the advantages. Eastern Infantry get a bad rap, IMHO. They get a bonus fighting cavalry, and have a base defense of 10, and in desert conditions, they get a movement bonus. Granted an attack value of 3 is pretty paltry, but don't overlook the bonuses granted by a good general. In the hands of a 5-star general who is, say, a Legendary Infantry commander, that 3 attack value becomes 13. I'm certainly not advocating they become an army mainstay, but their mass, speed, and cavalry bonus make them more useful than you might think. Early in the game, I like to use them to spring traps by luring opposing cavalry towards them with my horse archers. Even cataphracts can be overwhelmed by a massed EI attack.

Besides, as Parthia, once you get to your Ellies and Heavy Cats, you won't need them any more~;)

Vincent Butler
08-06-2014, 17:08
I have not really examined the units, so I fully acknowledge my ignorance in that matter. I just know EI rout very quickly. And right, as Parthia, better to sally forth and wreak havoc with the cav than let the enemy assault the city. As factions such as Greece or Macedon, it is easier to let them assault and fight them in the streets, with help from your walls. Phalanx are a lot easier to use when the enemy is marching through narrow streets. Rome can go either way. As for the towers, I have had rebel units move onto the coordinates of towers in the campaign map, and I lost the line of sight that tower provided. I can attack them and drive them away, and I get the line of sight back. Is there a thread about how a general's attributes affect his units?

ReluctantSamurai
08-06-2014, 19:59
Is there a thread about how a general's attributes affect his units?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?37001-CA-what-do-command-stars-do

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?44549-Research-Effects-of-Command

My appreciation of generals attributes went up dramatically after reading those two threads. The bonuses granted to troops often becomes the difference between victory and defeat. You asked me once how I could charge my Heavy Cats frontally into phalanx. The answer is in the commanding general's bonuses. I would never do that with a fledgling general unless I was desperate. But in the hands of a Legendary Cavalry/Legendary Attacker/Legendary Commander (bonuses stack)......SPLAT!

Vincent Butler
08-06-2014, 20:15
Thanks for the links.:hail:
Back to the Parthian infantry, I did some research. Somebody on the Total War Heaven forum did a one-on-one on Medium difficulty. It took an experience+2 unit of his Hillmen to beat a standard unit of AI EI, and then it was close, the extra men make the difference. By the screenshot he posted, Hillmen vs EI: Attack:5-3 Charge Bonus:2-1 Defense:9-10. Eastern Infantry have 120 men, poor morale, can sap, bonus vs cav. Hillmen have 80 men, bonus fighting cav, can sap, can hide in long grass, fast-moving, may charge without orders, good stamina. The one-on-one says it all, though. EI also did better against all other units tested: Barb. Cav, Swordsmen, Scythe Chariots, Archers, Militia Hoplites. So yes, EI are better. They cost 40 more, but upkeep is 20 less, so you get more for your money. He also tried 3-3, and EI still won.

williamsiddell
08-06-2014, 21:52
Quotes from other threads:


I've never had problems with Scythia

This current game I'm playing is very different to the first. A medium Scythian army toddled toward Phraaspa and back, and a Scythian general with a horse archer army moved in and out of Sakae several times. I knew the writing was on the wall and shortly after the general appeared on my northern border and the army that had been loitering besieged Kotais. Luckily my army that had stuffed Armenia was still around and with a few reinforcements and heavy touch and go fighting I was forced to take Alanni. Fighting Scythian HA is a painful experience :)


But my way is certainly not the only way

I just don't like giving up cities so I keep Sakae.


It may or may not be a bad idea to take Alanni

If Scythia attacks you probably don't have any option.


It won't take long till you have public order problems there (Sakae) anyway

In my previous Parthian game by 240bc Sakae has a 15k population and 2 peasants to hold it at 70% - showing a net profit and contributing 700 to army costs. It is poor in trade but generates nearly 900 farming with irrigation built - more when I take Selucia. When I move capitals it will no doubt give me trouble but that is expected.


nobody goes after it (Sakae), meaning you don't need much of a garrison

Even Scythia thinks it's too remote :)

Finally, this time Egypt has taken Selucia and currently has a full army heading for Arsakia and another moving into Susa from the south (war not declared yet). My army from Alanni is pelting south and I'm building units hand over fist :)

Vincent Butler
08-06-2014, 22:46
Do you prefer to fight in town or open field? As Parthia, probably better to fight in the open field, though in the town their chariots will be next to useless. I find slingers to be effective against chariots and light infantry, RS may have something to say about that~D. Also, they can serve as fodder for their bowmen. How much have you fought against Egypt, if you have been Greece probably a lot.

ReluctantSamurai
08-06-2014, 23:03
The one-on-one says it all, though. EI also did better against all other units tested: Barb. Cav, Swordsmen, Scythe Chariots, Archers, Militia Hoplites. So yes, EI are better.

I never did any empirical testing like the folks at TWH, but my battlefield experiences told me that EI were better against most other units than Hillmen, and, as you pointed out, they are cheaper to keep.


I just don't like giving up cities so I keep Sakae.

Can't fault you there. However.....in one of my early Parthian campaigns, I ended up at war with Scythia, Seleucia, Armenia, AND the Big E. Not much fun when you run out of money because you have to keep so many armies in the field to fend them off. So I greatly reduce the possibility of war with Scythia by removing their closest target. Even if they send an army south to attack you in Colchis or Media, crush it and they will be hard pressed to send another for a very long time.


and a Scythian general with a horse archer army moved in and out of Sakae several times

........what I said......:creep:


When I move capitals it will no doubt give me trouble but that is expected.

Once I take Seleucia, Hatra, and Sinope, my capital goes to Hatra, so I just anticipate the inevitable.....you don't have a good enough law-and-order temple to swing it, and getting it to ZPG is verrrry difficult.


RS may have something to say about that

Your a horse archer faction here, not a bunch of stone-chuckers:bounce:

williamsiddell
08-06-2014, 23:11
Do you prefer to fight in town or open field?

Open field unless heavily outnumbered when I take as many with me as I can. If it's open field I always go out the side door. You get all the time you need to organise your troops (the AI mostly stays where it is).


I find slingers to be effective against chariots and light infantry, Also, they can serve as fodder for their bowmen

I never build slingers but do use mercs if needed. The idea of using them as a cheap distraction for enemy archers sounds like a very good idea - I'll try that.


How much have you fought against Egypt

A lot. My assassins are usually very busy and as Greek Cities you can often bribe a fair sized army. Not impressed by their troops but I know I'm in for a fight if I see Pharaoh's Guards and Archers.

Vincent Butler
08-06-2014, 23:16
Your a horse archer faction here, not a bunch of stone-chuckers

Get the horse archers on the infantry. If you don't have other infantry, you don't want slingers. How do HA's do against chariots, I have not used them much. I know foot archers do a good number on them. Parthia gets a decent foot archer unit, right? I guess it all depends on how you want to fight. Also, I have little experience with HA's, so you know more about that than I do.

williamsiddell
08-07-2014, 00:01
crush it and they will be hard pressed to send another for a very long time.

After taking Alanni there is no sign of another Scythian army (I now have some watchtowers on the border). Interestingly, when that general appeared in Sakae I though it prudent to start building some units. I had built 2 HA when it disappeared - but later when they attacked it was those 2 HA that actually took Alanni with my main army coming up. It's something we talked about before - I besieged with a small army, they attacked from the city (an HA and two ground units) and my HA destroyed them from the high gound outside.


my capital goes to Hatra

I was planning on Jerusalem, then Rhodes, then Sparta.


you don't want slingers

You know slingers disappear into the distance under attack. That could be useful if they take a couple of Scythian HA with them (for instance). They won't last long, but long enough for you to badly damage the rest of their troops with your main army.


How do HA's do against chariots

In my experience not very well - chariots are too spaced out and seemingly unpredictable. Luckily against scythed chariots you only need to kill a few before they go amok.


Parthia gets a decent foot archer unit

I can't think of a good reason for building them when you have HAs. Bribed units seem to be handy though.

Vincent Butler
08-07-2014, 00:22
If you have other infantry, and with Parthian infantry why would you train them, other than as garrison troops, then you don't want archers with your army. The slingers can actually do a pretty good number on the HA's, at least until their numbers get whittled down. If the enemy is sitting, run the slingers to attack the HA's. They will take casualties, but should be able to inflict quite a few themselves in that situation, I don't know how quickly HA's take them down. If they do last till they run out of stones, yeah, turn them on skirmish and distract the enemy HA's. (Personally I think slingers are underrated. If you play the Europa Barbarorum mod:2thumbsup: you will find them even better, even against armour.) You will probably get some of them back anyway, against the HA's. I don't like to do much fighting in the open field, at least not if I think I am in for more than one battle. I like to be able to replenish my losses quickly, so I like to be in a situation where if I take heavy casualties, I can withdraw to a town within two turns, retrain, and then strike again. The enemy can't build a new army that fast, just bring one in from elsewhere.

williamsiddell
08-07-2014, 01:11
Personally I think slingers are underrated.

You clearly know more about them than I do. Currently as Parthia I'm struggling to work out how to use them in an army of HAs whose ammunition lasts to the end of most battles. That's the reason if I used them it would be as a distraction - on the other hand if they are as capable against HAs as you say then they have to be considered against the likes of Scythia.

Vincent Butler
08-07-2014, 01:54
I actually will use them as part of my army if I can't field archers. Depends on who I am fighting, I will hire Balearic/Rhodian Slingers. Running some Rhodians behind Armoured Hoplites as a desperation attempt, I decimated the Armoured Hoplites. I know that Slingers decimate Spanish units and skirmishers such as Velites and Peltasts, and they do very well against chariots (how I found out about that was as Parthia against Scythed Chariots). With some experience and elevation they can hurt armoured units, but not before they have some experience. Slingers target individual soldiers in a unit instead of targeting the unit itself like archers do. Don't put slingers behind your troops (at least at the same or lower elevation), you will suffer from friendly fire. Putting them at a higher elevation is fine. If I do move them behind, I turn them off fire at will. For archers/Chariot Archers, and probably works for Horse Archers, I tell them to attack. Their max range is before the HA's start moving away due to skirmish mode, so they will be hitting them. Of course, they will be firing back. I can't say how effective they are vs Pharoah's Bowmen.

ReluctantSamurai
08-07-2014, 05:26
H-O-R-S-E A-R-C-H-E-R-S!!! Guys...you have to think like Mongols here:inquisitive: Foot infantry, slingers, and archers are for set-piece sieges of cities where cavalry is of little use. For Parthia, it's all about Horse Archers, Elephants, and Heavy Cats. That's what wins field battles, and field battles are what allows you to expand your empire.

Once Egypt gets to Desert Axmen, no amount of slingers, archers, or Eastern Infantry is going to win your field battles. You are going to see a constant diet of Desert Axmen, phalanx of some sort (Nile Spear & Pharaoh's Guard), and hordes of Chariot Archers. The Axmen will eat EI for lunch, and are fleet of foot enough to run down skirmishers. You will not be able to flank them with slingers because the Chariot Archers roam Egyptian flanks and will either shoot the slingers to pieces or rip them apart in close melee. As Parthia, your only good counter is Elephants to break their infantry, Heavy Cats to kill them, and Persian Cavalry to deal with the Chariot Archers.

@ Vincent---One thing you are overlooking with an all-cavalry army is the distance they can cover on the campaign map. Where an army containing infantry might have enough mobility to fight one or two offensive battles, an all-cavalry army can fight three, four, and sometimes five battles on the same turn, depending on general attributes. Check this out:

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/aussiebirdman/BSS_12.jpg

The army standing on the bridge was back at Campus Lazyges last turn (and it destroyed a Roman army along the way just across the bridge where all the devastation is)...and that's a dirt road the general took his army along; the other army was standing near Bylazora the previous turn...thank you for the highway, Roman dogs~D Yes, both generals had movement traits and as many movement-bonus ancillaries as would stack giving both a huge range-of-operation...which would have been significantly smaller had either of them been toting foot soldiers along.......

And btw, on the next turn one general destroyed that Julii army and the other stood next to Segestica without laying siege and was attacked by one of those nearby Brutii stacks. After wiping out all the units (paying particular attention to not allowing any town garrison units to survive), Segestica rebelled on the Brutii, forcing them to recapture it and buying me enough time to get a siege army out there to relieve the poor peasants of Illyria of their Roman oppressors~D The tactic of standing right next to a city but not laying siege when there are free stacks about is a great way for a horse archer faction to destroy a city garrison without having to actually siege it. A case where the usually timid AI should just remain so.....

Think like Mongols...move fast, hit hard, and move fast again.........

williamsiddell
08-07-2014, 08:17
You're speaking to the converted here.


Foot infantry, slingers, and archers are for set-piece sieges of cities

I think Vincent is posting about these because he's currently playing Greek Cities.

A point about slingers. I've never noticed casualties caused by slingers placed behind my front line because enemy archers or heavy cavalry will inflict many more. I've seen it posted I should place slingers ahead of my phalanx. I think that not a good idea because they move backwards into your lines where they will cause significant friendly fire losses. I think you should always place slingers where they are most use irrespective of the minor casualties they cause.


Persian Cavalry to deal with the Chariot Archers

Aye - they have longer range and better armour. Shame they have less ammunition than HAs.

I use a variation of your tactics for Parthian sieges. I separate out the foot soldiers (usually 3) and they tag along behind the faster horse. I can then siege with the horse and build rams so that I can immediately assault when the foot solders come up next turn.

ReluctantSamurai
08-07-2014, 13:37
I've seen it posted I should place slingers ahead of my phalanx. I think that not a good idea because they move backwards into your lines where they will cause significant friendly fire losses. I think you should always place slingers where they are most use irrespective of the minor casualties they cause.

Slingers are a direct line-of-fire shooter. As such, they need to be in front of your main battle line. When you retreat them behind the line, you remove the fire-at-will option and they cease shooting...unless you are sitting on a hill high enough to allow them to continue firing over the heads of your front.

And where exactly would you place them 'where they are of most use'? On the flanks? Now you tie down your cavalry to protecting them from enemy cav...and if you have seasoned and buffed Baleraeic Slingers, I doubt your friendly fire casualties will be "minor":shrug:


I think Vincent is posting about these because he's currently playing Greek Cities.

He certainly does like his "stonechuckers"...~D As the GC, I prefer Cretan Archers; longer range, higher damage, and no need to micro-manage for direct-line-of-fire...and being the GC's, you have access to them in three different areas so it doesn't take too long to accumulate a pile of them...

williamsiddell
08-07-2014, 14:30
Slingers are a direct line-of-fire shooter. When you retreat them behind the line,

I don't retreat them if they're ahead of the front line - the AI does when the enemy advances. The slingers then back into your phalanx where, because they are firing amongst your troops, losses are likely to be higher, and additionally the enemy fire aimed at the slingers will hit the closely packed spearmen. So I would not place slingers in front of my troops.


'where they are of most use'

That depends on the person fighting the battle and the situation. My default is just behind the front line.


I doubt your friendly fire casualties will be "minor"

In a test with Rhodian slingers just behind 2 phalanx they were exactly that - minor. The test was against non missile troops and considering there were 160 slingers casualties after several turns were in low single figures. Meanwhile those Rhodians were dishing it out - so I therefore ignore friendly fire chances and concentrate on optimum positioning.

BTW I haven't built or used slingers as Parthia :)

williamsiddell
08-07-2014, 15:24
I've remembered more detail on the test I ran to get an idea of friendly fire casualties. It was early in a Greek Cities campaign. There's a group of rebels near Halicarnassus that I bribed (2 hoplite, a Rhodian and a Cretean). I added a militia phalanx and left the Cretan behind and went looking for trouble. The line was the militia hoplite an 2 hoplites with the Rhodians stretched out just behind. The militia took the most casualties and the hoplites less. The conclusion I came to was that the better the troops in the line the fewer the casualties. That's why with my default armoured hoplite front line I don't notice friendly fire casualties.

ReluctantSamurai
08-07-2014, 15:26
The slingers then back into your phalanx where, because they are firing amongst your troops, losses are likely to be higher

Perhaps I need to clarify a bit further...remove the skirmish mode during deployment. Then they stand their ground until they receive orders to move behind the infantry, where you remove the fire-at-will....no friendly fire casualties. I use archers the same way except that once they are tucked safely behind the front line, removing the fire-at-will is not necessary.

I find it highly suspect that you could be shooting your own men in the back with an armor-piercing projectile, and not suffer significant casualties. I've seen the rapidly, red-blinking unit card because a unit was getting hosed in the back from missile fire, all too often....and from the way Vincent describes how he uses his slingers to shoot AH in the rear to kill them, makes me even more suspect that casualties could be "light".


There's a group of rebels near Halicarnassus that I bribed (2 hoplite, a Rhodian and a Cretean

Yep...and IIRC, none of those units have experience chevrons or equipment upgrades....a missile attack of 4 is pretty paltry....when it gets jacked to 9 or 10 the friendly fire casualties will increase accordingly.

In any case, I never use slingers anymore, so however you use them is the best way for you~;)

williamsiddell
08-07-2014, 16:21
I agree with just about everything you say except:


Vincent describes how he uses his slingers to shoot AH in the rear to kill them, makes me even more suspect that casualties could be "light".

If I remember right those were against an already engaged phalanx by slingers actually aiming at them :)

I like using Rhodians and Balearics with factions where missile options are limited and mostly against generals.

Vincent Butler
08-07-2014, 18:00
If I remember right those were against an already engaged phalanx by slingers actually aiming at them :)

Almost correct, they were advancing on my main line, but they were not yet engaged. I have not experienced horrible slinger friendly fire casualties yet, but that is because I used Balearic/Rhodian, who open fire at longer ranges, with more of a trajectory, so there were less stones at a trajectory to cause FF, and the one or two casualties I did take made me turn fire at will off. I know RS likes Horse Archers, but I am an infantry general.

shooting your own men in the back with an armor-piercing projectile
I don't know that Slingers are AP in RTW. They certainly don't seem like it.


He certainly does like his "stonechuckers"
I have posted numerous posts mentioning my use of slingers. It always draws the same reaction.:bounce: They are more effective in Europa Barbarorum than RTW. By the way, slingers were very much a part of the Assyrian army (I know, ancient, but they had HA's and CA's as well), they even had Armoured Slingers, part of their Heavy Infantry category. But I digress. Against light infantry, for non-horse archer factions, slingers work better than foot archers, in my opinion. As Parthia, I would not use slingers much other than in garrisons, my Parthia campaigns were when I was just getting into the game so I had no clue what I was doing. Bear in mind Carthage, Spain, and Britannia don't get foot or cav archers, Britain does have their Light Chariots and Carthage their War/Armoured Elephants. Different purposes. I have yet to try Slingers against HA's. Of course, even if that works against AI, I could just as easily turn the tables and decimate Slingers with HA's. AI is just that, artificial. For me, slingers hit light infantry, archers hit heavy. My cav plays a supporting role, so I don't commit them to hit missile units unless they are a real bother or the unit has isolated itself from its lines.

williamsiddell
08-07-2014, 21:58
I don't know that Slingers are AP in RTW

Guaranteed to wind up RS :) What I can say is they have little FF effect on well promoted AH.


I have posted numerous posts mentioning my use of slingers. It always draws the same reaction. They are more effective in Europa Barbarorum than RTW

Don't know what EB is, but I've seen a post on another site about RTW2 - 'slingers own horse archers'. Sounds right up your street.

ReluctantSamurai
08-08-2014, 05:15
I don't know that Slingers are AP in RTW. They certainly don't seem like it.

I assumed, because stones are classified as a blunt weapon, that the main attribute for slingers would be AP like all the other blunt weapon types. I looked in the descr_projectile.txt and the export_descr_unit.txt files in the RTW directory, but couldn't find any wording suggesting an AP attribute. Lots of players swear to the AP attribute, but it's not stated in any game file that I can find...so who knows:shrug:


I've seen a post on another site about RTW2 - 'slingers own horse archers'.

Horse Archers are so badly modeled in R2, that I refuse to play the game. They don't even get a "Parthian Shot" anymore, and have their fire restricted to an arc. Really? The Parthian Shot was the most deadly feature of horse archers, in the game and historically. Of course there are a lot of other FUBAR'ed features to that game that keeps me from playing it, but....that's another story.

ReluctantSamurai
08-08-2014, 05:15
removed dbl. post

Vincent Butler
08-08-2014, 06:12
Europa Barbarorum is an awesome mod for RTW, more realistic. You can hire regional troops out of a levy barracks (hoplites, Celtic Archers, or Peltasts, for example), or train your troops out of your own, sometimes the levy troops are better. Phalanx on defense is less effective. Rome can only train their regular troops in Italy until the Marian reforms, when they can train their troops anywhere. There are actually three reforms for Rome: you start in Camillan era (Hastati, Principes (as spearmen), hoplite-style Triarii, Leves (skirmishers), Ascensi (slingers), Rorarii (light spearmen, actually called reserve skirmishers), Campanian Cav (skirmisher cav) and Equites Romani (light cav). You go to the Polybian reforms, with Principes now swordsmen and Triarii normal spearmen. The Leves and Rorarii are gone, and replaced by Velites. Oh, if you don't advance your barracks, they still build the old units. You get the Marian reforms once certain conditions are met, and you can get the Imperial reforms, though that is not a given. Hoplites are not phalanx, they and most other spearmen fight overhand. Each turn is one season, so stuff costs more and takes longer to build. There are many regional wonders instead of the seven. Peltasts are actually good, the RTW equivalent is Heavy Peltasts. What was Peltasts in RTW is Akontistai. Those are just a few of the changes. Rome is one faction, no senate, and Egypt is more realistic. I will stop for now, but it is AWESOME.

Vincent Butler
08-08-2014, 06:17
As someone who uses slingers, I would say that they are definitely not AP in RTW, they are in EB. EB Roman and Hellenistic (Macedonian, Epeirote, Seleucid, etc.) generals are AP as well. Greek Cities generals are hoplites, if the general is from a Spartan family he is a Spartan Hoplite. Several other generals are infantry as well. I understand that RTW2 was pretty bad because of bugs, no concern for me because I don't think my computer could run it anyway.

williamsiddell
08-08-2014, 12:34
in R2, that I refuse to play the game

I think RTW is a great game. The battles are so well done, and terrain actually seems to have a realistic effect. You'd think the only way was up (it's not perfect, as we sometimes point out). It was a player created video of RTW2 I saw and even though it's clearly been fancied up I don't think I'd enjoy RTW2 as much as this game - even if it didn't have the documented bugs and unsuccessful mods.


AWESOME

That's a fair description of your little essay. I think there are a dozen words in there I've never heard before! Certainly explains your interest in the historical side of this game. EB sounds satisfyingly complex - it's considered, and I like the idea of a bigger set of wonders.

In my current Parthia game: Another Scythian general is coming my way and I'm weak up there. I've broken the back of Pontus and in the process one of my generals got +4 defender and +3 Cavalry leader. I've beaten back the Egyptians (as usual they hung about while besieging Arsakia and my Alanni army had time to arrive). I've taken Selucia and I think I'm now in easy street.

ReluctantSamurai
08-08-2014, 14:36
and in the process one of my generals got +4 defender and +3 Cavalry leader.

Don't ever let him see the inside walls of a city...at least not until he and his wife will not have any more children. I'm a heartless b@$tard, I know:whip: The next generation from him will have a pretty good chance of being awesome....(all the +/legendary stuff has to be earned on the battlefield, but you should get a good jump start in that direction).


Another Scythian general is coming my way and I'm weak up there.

:creep:

williamsiddell
08-08-2014, 16:29
Don't ever let him see the inside walls of a city...at least not until he and his wife will not have any more children.

I like the title 'Cavalry Commander of Genius', but I'm taking the credit for myself. There are some worrying aspects - he has only a sixteen year old daughter and he's 'scarred'. I hope it isn't in an important place. Plus the daughter is married to Soligdinus the Mange - not very promising is it. :bucktooth:

Vincent Butler
08-08-2014, 17:39
Complex, yes, and I would say more difficult. Then again, I waited for a while to get into RTW because it seemed too complex. There are River Ports in EB, also Naval Ports instead of just generic ports. Some of your trade ports will cost 64,000 Mnai (not Denarii), and those will take I think 64 turns to build. More realistic build times, I guess, that is 16 years. The map is bigger, too, it reaches into India. Mercs cost a lot more, but some of the ones you hire, if they are not listed with Mercenary in their name, can be retrained if in the right region with the right barracks, say Celtic Slingers in Gaul. Just more expensive than training them straight out. The factions are more realistic, for instance, Scythia is replaced by Sarmatia as Scythia was virtually gone by that time. Many factions have Greek influence. I could go on and on, but I don't want an eighteen page post, so I will stop.

I don't think I'd enjoy RTW2 as much as this game
From what I've seen...agreed.

Vincent Butler
08-08-2014, 17:43
Plus the daughter is married to Soligdinus the Mange - not very promising is it.
In MTW2, I once had a daughter named Thos the Gorgon. She actually married quickly:date:, and her husband instantly got the trait "Wife is a Wretch".:flame:

he's 'scarred'.
Scarred type traits do help some, right, as far as battle is concerned?

williamsiddell
08-08-2014, 18:08
Ha ha - some people have no luck.


Scarred type traits do help some, right, as far as battle is concerned?

I think +4 hit points (possibly because there's less to hit).

Vincent Butler
08-08-2014, 19:20
Wasn't the Parthian shot restricted to the HA's of that region, or was that standard HA procedure, it is the Parthian shot and not the Scythian Shot, after all? I was thinking, and I could very well be wrong, that that was a tactic used, or at least started, by the Parthians.

Siddell, I forgot to mention another interesting feature in EB, if you do not share a culture with the town you took over, you will need to build your own culture's military buildings, Rome shares with nobody. It says on the building description which cultures that building works for. So you can't always take over a town and automatically start retraining. And the units you train depend on the government system you choose to set up in that city, which also has regional limitations. I think that is all I will say for now, as you can see, very complex.

williamsiddell
08-08-2014, 22:47
Just taken Antioch with the army that is stuffing Pontus. I'm overwhelmed - I can now build war elephants! I'm gonna rest on my laurels for a day or so now.

Parthia was a well-kept secret. How can you lose with a basic unit like HAs, Persian Cavalry, Cataphracts and War Elephants (as well as something called camel cataphracts)?

I've checked out EB and it looks like it's a mere two downloads away. Am I right? And will it overwrite the RTW exe?

Vincent Butler
08-08-2014, 23:05
Copy the RTW stuff, and save it elsewhere, that way you have the basic to fall back on or play. You will have a separate exe. I believe you are supposed to have a clean version of Rome, what that means I am not sure, I took it to mean no saved game, though I don't know. I do know that because I had a copied RTW file, I could play either RTW or EB, so I don't think you have to clear your saved games. Two downloads is right. It is a bit unstable, meaning more crashes. Don't be frustrated if it gets to a point where everytime you try to end turn it crashes. Most of my EB campaigns hit that point eventually.

Parthia was a well-kept secret
So you are doing well for money? That is what killed my Parthia campaigns. Early on, how did you deal with chariots? Just curious for when I start one with Parthia again.

williamsiddell
08-08-2014, 23:29
It is a bit unstable, meaning more crashes

That helps explain why it's free. Sounds worth trying though. Ta.


So you are doing well for money?

Not well. Money is tight and I'm spending mostly all I have each turn - but I can still afford all I need. I had money to spend last game, the difference this time is I'm running a larger army and more mercs than I like because of simultaneous attacks by Scythia and Egypt. Things will settle down when the cities I've taken start generating cash and I can dump some troops.

Vincent Butler
08-08-2014, 23:40
I assume you are trying to take Turkey so you can get to Greece? Once that happens, your money supply should skyrocket. Are you actively going after Scythia, or just defeating them when they come around? As you probably figure, actually going after Scythia would not be very cost-effective. What parts of the map do you control?
Note on EB wonders: most of them can be destroyed for cash, some for 20,000 Mnai. Not advisable, they help with trade and/or public order. Also, you have the passageway from the Med to the Gulf of Corinth, so you don't have to go around Sparta. That bay by Athens has a direct crossover to Corinth. Those kinds of wonders cannot be destroyed, nor would you want to. I went back to RTW to take it easy, a lot more casual. I was amazed at how quickly units routed compared to EB.

williamsiddell
08-08-2014, 23:52
Early on, how did you deal with chariots?

Early on you could fire at chariots all day with horse archers and not kill them all, so the alternative I use is Eastern Infantry. Chariots seem to like charging troop formation so, I take advantage of that. I line up the EI facing the chariots and when they charge I follow up with anything I've got available - they die quick :)

From what you say I don't think your style suits Parthia so I'm not surprised you ended up skint. For instance you like real garrisons e.g slingers, a peasant cost 100 per turn, a slinger 170. The extra soon mounts up. Parthia is perfect for a stingy git like me.

ReluctantSamurai
08-08-2014, 23:54
I like the title 'Cavalry Commander of Genius'

Strange thing about that...in my last three (consecutive) Armenian campaigns, the first of my generals to achieve that status was named Kudurmabug of Elegia...all three times:crazy:


Wasn't the Parthian shot restricted to the HA's of that region, or was that standard HA procedure, it is the Parthian shot and not the Scythian Shot, after all? I was thinking, and I could very well be wrong, that that was a tactic used, or at least started, by the Parthians.

Yes it started with the Parthians, but was quickly adopted by other horse archer cultures like the Scythians, Huns, Turks, Maygars, and even the Mongols.

You wound, like Parthians, while you fly,
And kill with a retreating eye.

Pretty aptly describes a horse archer, I think...


Parthia was a well-kept secret.

Most folks don't like them from the money aspect, but especially because of the reputation for poor infantry. IMHO, they didn't understand what Parthia is all about. You have done remarkably well with them and deserve a hearty:hail:


So you are doing well for money? That is what killed my Parthia campaigns.

I'd like to make a suggestion if I might....start with Armenia. You being an infantry type, will find Armenia's roster amenable, at the least. You eventually get the best Horse Archer in the game, and you can stay safely tucked behind the Caucasus Mts. while you pound Pontus into submission. You get quick access to rich port cities like Sinope, Nicomedia, and eventually Sardis and Pergamum. I wrote an extensive Guide to Armenia, if you want to check it out.:shrug:


Early on, how did you deal with chariots? Just curious for when I start one with Parthia again.

Ummm...horse archers?:quiet:

~D

williamsiddell
08-09-2014, 00:17
I assume you are trying to take Turkey

One of the things about this game is you can have a good plan, and then the AI messes it up by attacking when it's clearly a stupid thing to do :)

I attacked down the northern coast of Turkey with a starting army of size six. After several heroic victories on the way, I could see the garrison in Sinope was too big, so I took Masaka first, then Sinope, then Tarsus and almost immediately Antioch. I took Alanni early and Scythia has again besieged it. The army I have inside will beat them, and then I think I have no option but to remove the Scythian threat by going after them - they're an expensive side-show to the main game. I've taken Selucia and closing in on Hatra with 4 or 5 Egyptian armies around the area that I can duff up.

The plan - aim to take Memphis ASAP to make Egyptian buildings mine, then the other Egyptian cities. Clean up in Turkey and move my capital to Sidon or Jerusalem.

williamsiddell
08-09-2014, 00:27
You have done remarkably well with them

Praise indeed. It so happens I have an affinity for horses.

Vincent Butler
08-09-2014, 00:45
One of the things about this game is you can have a good plan, and then the AI messes it up by attacking when it's clearly a stupid thing to do :)

For sure. That is usually when they attack, is when it is stupid. It's like, "You are the super power. I have two settlements. You have a full army with a wide range of armoured troops, missile units, and heavy cav. I have all Warband. I shall prevail. Why did I just lose all my men in the battle? Revenge will be mine." Even more insulting is when they blockade a port. Cowards. So in your experience, HA's were not good against Chariots, RS liked them for that. Interesting. By the way, as Scythia, your first-level barracks unit is the Horse Archer. Yes, barracks unit. You don't even need a stable for that. RS, you are right, Armenia may be a good transition. That said, I learned to appreciate cav as Macedon. Also, who I fight determines the composition of my army. Instinctively, I would not use HA's against Egypt, but you seem to do well with them; all I know is my first battle against Egypt, as an inexperienced RTW player, my HA's stayed out of range, using Cantabrian Circle, but I got owned everywhere else. I don't even remember all I had, I know HA's and Merc Hoplites, I don't remember what else.

williamsiddell
08-09-2014, 01:24
in your experience, HA's were not good against Chariots

You probably remember yourself you can practically count each chariot as it falls under HA attack. It just takes too long for me.

Didn't know that about the Scythian barracks - explains the high number they produce.


using Cantabrian Circle

I use CC with Greek militia cav but not HA. HA has ammunition to last the entire battle and I don't want to exhaust them.

Early Egypt doesn't seem to have much to threaten HAs - including chariots even if you have to fire at them all day. Now I would expect to easily beat a size 20 Egypt with a size 10 Parthian. Not so when I first played the game though.

ReluctantSamurai
08-09-2014, 02:32
my HA's stayed out of range, using Cantabrian Circle

ws is right...don't waste your time with Cantabrian Circle. It just tires your HA for no discernible gain. With spear-chucking cavalry...they don't have as much ammo, so the Circle will run its course much quicker.


Armenia may be a good transition

I suggested them because of the three horse archer factions in RTW, they have the most balanced roster, so if you find yourself not comfortable with all-cataphract armies, you can go a more familiar route with phalanx, the legionnaire clone, and whatever missile unit suits your needs. They are also more secluded, so you can pick your way a bit less pressed. Pontus is usually your first opponent, although Parthia sometimes comes sniffing around Artaxarta after they occupy Phraaspa.....

In my last Armenian campaign, I tried something I had always wanted to do....a migration campaign. I completely left Armenian traditional lands in favor of a "Black Sea" sojourn. It was a refreshing bit of fun. I posted a thread on it..."Black Sea Serenade".

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?141824-Black-Sea-Serenade

williamsiddell
08-09-2014, 09:41
In my last Armenian campaign....a migration campaign

Liked the photies. Did you defend your homeland or (since it was a migration) leave the cities to their fate? And where did you plant your capital?


my HA's stayed out of range

I've been caught out by that a lot. I set them up and leave them to it, but when they get to a red line they seem to stop retreating and get massacred. Now if I see that happening I disable skirmish and high-tail it.


real garrisons e.g slingers

For public order purposes the quality of the garrison doesn't seem to matter - only size. So a peasant is not only cheaper but more effective. 240 against 160.

Sarmatians with Parthia seem a different thing entirely. Enemy missile troops tear them to shreds, so I have them hang back and reserve them for suicide attacks and mopping-up. One other thing. They seem to attract the enemy. Two examples. At a bridge battle I placed them well back and the enemy general charged over the bridge, ignored everything else, and made a bee-line for my Sarmatians. The general caught them and soon had them routing, while I closed in with a couple of my own generals. Also, and this is a cracker, against a small rebel army I moved them wide on the flank waiting to mop-up if necessary, and a rebel spearman did a right turn and headed straight for them!

I've had 7 or so battles as Parthia with no general present (including several against rebels) but no luck with Man of the Hour. I presume this is dice throw dependent with low odds. How do I improve my chances?

I find Parthian cataphracts excellent in city assaults. Two planted across a street slightly overlapped and in defensive mode kill generals. Armoured hoplites in a similar situation under attack by a powerful general last a while, but steadily die. Similarly with cataphracts, but the difference is that they get penetrated and when the general himself ends up amongst them he dies.

ReluctantSamurai
08-09-2014, 10:51
Did you defend your homeland or (since it was a migration) leave the cities to their fate?

Never looked back. My capital moved as I made my way into the Balkans and then Greece. It ended up in Tylis, eventually. LMAO at the Egyptian stack all the way up in Scythian lands looking for me:bounce: The sequence of the Scipii and the Moors was pretty hilarious, as well.

The best chances for MotH seems to come from heroic victories, and yes it's a low-odds dice throw. That's why I was so surprised in the Seleucid campaign that I mentioned...three MotH events in three rather routine battles:shrug:


Sarmatians with Parthia seem a different thing entirely.

Perhaps all that falls under the same category as suicide generals. The AI assesses its best unit with yours, and decides it can win:shrug: My favorite in that 'attack the best unit' theme is suicide Roman Triarii (and later the Auxillia) who think that just because game stats say they have a bonus against cavalry that they can go charging head-on into Heavy Cats...heheheh~D

williamsiddell
08-09-2014, 11:02
You wound, like Parthians, while you fly,
And kill with a retreating eye.


Very poignant. But in the spirit of competition:

a' that is pronounced 'awe that' Scottish for 'all that'

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

The situation by the end of some of my games :)

Vincent Butler
08-09-2014, 19:11
That's why I was so surprised in the Seleucid campaign that I mentioned...three MotH events in three rather routine battles

I have noticed that when I am low on family members I receive more MotH and Candidates for Adoption, kind of the computer keeping the game going. Right about CC, I have learned not to utilize it much, it probably works better against missile troops.
By Moors, are you talking Numidia?

I think spearmen will automatically go for a cav unit. Auxilia vs Companion Cav...:stars: Archers automatically target elephants. The AI is not dumb, just stupid.

My brother as Scythia mainly fielded just cav, Scythia has a nice selection of good cavalry. Again, it helps with the barracks producing HA's.


I find Parthian cataphracts excellent in city assaults
I don't like cav in a city period, I keep them in as wide streets as possible.

williamsiddell
08-09-2014, 20:09
I have noticed that when I am low on family members I receive more MotH and Candidates

That didn't work in my last Parthian game - I was permanently struggling for generals. This game I have a bunch more. It would be nice to know what equations the AI uses.


I don't like cav in a city period

I don't use them as cavalry. Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.

I'm reading up on EB and saw this on FAQ.


Q: Why are slingers so strong?
A: Slingers have the AP attribute to represent the power of the lead bullets that they used. Slingers can be more effective against armored units and were historically. Due to the fact that the AI doesn't spam slingers, the EB team has decided to keep their stats the way they are.

Vincent Butler
08-09-2014, 21:59
For the slingers, I noticed an immediate difference in EB vs RTW. They make a great garrison unit, especially shooting from the walls. From walls, they decimate even good enemy units, and are even better against unarmoured. I usually have at least two slingers, two archers in my garrison. These are just first level units, Celtic Slingers and Ascensi (Roman slingers). Barbarians get stone walls, by the way. There are no peasants that you can train, but you get a peasant unit called Apleutheroi when a town revolts to you. They get a missile attack by throwing stones at the enemy. Your level of barracks determines how many you get.


Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.
Right, but hoplites can keep the enemy off them and not take hits, Cataphracts do take hits.

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 00:15
Cataphracts do take hits.

Cataphracts are the strongest defensive unit Parthia has. EI can't handle a charge by generals or heavy cavalry, so I use cataphracts as the first line of defense and as general killers. Parthia starts with two, and in fact the first full battle I fought was a siege of Kotais fought outside when the main Armenian army attacked. I lined up the cataphracts 4 deep facing the generals as they approached and killed both when they attacked.


There are no peasants that you can train

That's more like it - peasants should be next to useless as a military unit.

I was hoping you might check the unit desc files for EB to see if slingers are flagged as AP. The reason? RS (and not only he) thought they were AP in RTW.

Vincent Butler
08-10-2014, 03:24
I would not know how to tell in the descr files, RS checked and said he could not find anything, here is his quote:

I assumed, because stones are classified as a blunt weapon, that the main attribute for slingers would be AP like all the other blunt weapon types. I looked in the descr_projectile.txt and the export_descr_unit.txt files in the RTW directory, but couldn't find any wording suggesting an AP attribute. Lots of players swear to the AP attribute, but it's not stated in any game file that I can find...so who know
Cataphracts are about the strongest defensive unit anybody has, barring Urban Cohort or Armoured Elephants, maybe even better defense. Armoured Hoplites are up there, though.

ReluctantSamurai
08-10-2014, 04:41
By Moors, are you talking Numidia?

Mauretania. When Tingi rebels, those rebels are always called Moors. I had half a mind to send a fleet out there with a spy on board just to see what the heck their army consisted of. Those were post-Marian Scipii the Moors were kicking around~:eek:


Scythia has a nice selection of good cavalry.

Aye, that they do. The Scythian Noble-Scythian Noble Archer tandem is tough to beat, and the Hunting Maidens make for a great mop-up unit.


RS (and not only he) thought they were AP in RTW.

I don't think they are (RTW). What I see, though, is that Rhodian and Balearic Slingers have double the attack value of vanilla slingers. Perhaps the devs acknowledgement that they often used lead shot in place of stones.:shrug:


Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.

You know, tanks wouldn't be used as mobile pillboxes for another 2000 yrs, so you're way ahead of the curve in military tactics~;)...you could just recruit some merc hoplites:creep:

Vincent Butler
08-10-2014, 06:22
you could just recruit some merc hoplites
That's right, I have seen them in Parthian lands. Balearic/Rhodian slingers have greater attack and greater range than normal slingers. What kind of units did the Moors have?

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 08:52
Nothing like a bit of controversy :) I'm playing a game here, and I have very little knowledge of ancient warfare so I use the units given - that at best can only be a crude approximation of actual troops. I do remember a long time ago spearmen beating tanks in Civ - did some not like that! Me. I used the spearmen.


I would not know how to tell in the descr files, RS checked and said he could not find anything,

That's OK. I haven't downloaded EB yet and just wondered. I too have had a look ay the RTW file and there is no indication of AP for slingers.


Cataphracts are about the strongest defensive unit anybody has, barring...Armoured Elephants

That's why I use them for Parthia. I haven't seen Armoured Elephants, but if they're like the ones I have seen they're probably too spaced out to use as a defensive line.

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 09:00
Perhaps the devs acknowledgement that they often used lead shot in place of stones

Rhodians are flagged as using 'bullet' most of the rest stone (stone-chuckers as you put it). The point I was trying to make is that the devs seem to be saying lead shot (bullet) was AP historically, but it's not implemented as such in RTW' Is it in EB?


you could just recruit some merc hoplites

I haven't seen any around Parthia or I would. Most of the mercs seem to be area dependent - not so for merc hoplites?

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 09:02
That's right, I have seen them (hoplites) in Parthian lands.

Not so far for me.

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 10:50
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcPdibqsntZj24h4l5k2TGxc#.U-dADGMel60

Finally got round to setting up screenshots. This is the current Parthian situation.

BTW merc hoplites are flagged as 'slave' only and not area dependant.

ReluctantSamurai
08-10-2014, 14:11
What kind of units did the Moors have?

Dunno. Never sent a spy over there to see. I would assume they had some Ellies...Tingi is a recruitment center for them:shrug:


The point I was trying to make is that the devs seem to be saying lead shot (bullet) was AP historically

They doubled the attack value of Rhodians and Balearics...but the unit files and projectile files don't flatly state that the attack value is AP. And there is a difference...AP means that 1/2 the armor value is used when calculating losses....(not sure if shield bonus is halved, as well)


I haven't seen any around Parthia or I would

Send a general into Phrygia or Ionia. There's Cretan's, Hoplites, and Bastarnae there. You could also put a general on a boat and send him to Bosphorus. There's hoplites there, as well.

Looks like the Romans haven't done much...that's surprising. Germania seems to be kicking butt, as does Dacia. The Greek Cities eating up Macedonia is also a surprise. The biggest surprise is that 26 years into the game and the Scipii haven't even occupied Sicily??~:eek:

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 15:40
Germania seems to be kicking butt, as does Dacia. The Greek Cities eating up Macedonia is also a surprise.

I've only got one diplomat toddling around up there and he's on his way back. The most recent maps are Germania and Macedon. Aye, Germania is doing better than I've seen before (maybe because Scythia chose to attack me) and I aint seen any sign of Greeks in Turkey (concentrating on the mainland? - and there are still 2 large pontic armies wandering around out of picture).

I've just played that turn to turn end and I've got 800 left and a building I was unable to pay for. Mercs are out of the question til I can get some spare cash. The battle up at Alanni was a corker - my COA general against a Scythian powerful enough that I couldn't assassinate. Hatra taken.

Finally, you can see crossed swords on the Antioch bridge. I had besieged and at turn end a size 20 Egyptian attacked - they died as did the garrison.

ReluctantSamurai
08-10-2014, 16:50
Just how large is your garrison at Alanni and Sakae (including family members)?

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 16:58
dbl post

williamsiddell
08-10-2014, 17:21
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcNSlbsLZ8tnMoh4l5k2TGxc#.U-ea1WMel60
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcNj1d9XNUv7GYh4l5k2TGxc#.U-ebFWMel60
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcMcNT1wGLMksYh4l5k2TGxc#.U-ebW2Mel60

The army in Alanni has been consolidated (big losses).

Vincent Butler
08-11-2014, 17:32
I am pretty sure EB slingers get a bonus vs armour, I think that is one of their attributes. The Armoured Elephants are spaced out too much, I think only Seleucia and Carthage can train them. I know I found the Merc Hoplites, I have seen them in Tribus Sakae, and somewhere else. I know I used them as Parthia, and I never got out of the main starting regions.

ReluctantSamurai
08-11-2014, 18:58
From the descr_mercenaries file (found in Data>world>maps>campaign>imperial_campaign) there are six steppe regions with merc Greek hoplites:

Tribus Sakae, Tribus Alanni, Tribus Sarmatae, Maeotis, Scythia, and Bosphorus.

In each of these regions there are Sarmatian Heavy Cavalry, Scythian Horse Archers, and Greek Hoplites.

Vincent Butler
08-11-2014, 19:36
You're awesome. That merc combination sounds pretty effective. Combined with some of the mercs that are not in all of those regions, Bastarnae, Thracians, Merc Peltasts, sounds like you could stage a pretty good war from that area.

williamsiddell
08-11-2014, 21:17
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcPVl1rCzjKAEYh4l5k2TGxc#.U-kiPWMel60

And I thought Turkey would be a mop-up. Greeks and Pontics say no. This is the start of the turn and it's fair to say the Greeks will attack at turn-end. I'll leave it and go back later.


I know I used them as Parthia, and I never got out of the main starting regions.

This is all vanilla RTW. I think cash is the key. You know if you did nothing first turn as Parthia you'd lose a large slice of your meagre 5000 start money. I get rid of evrything I don't immediately need and head toward Phraaspa with my only remaining army.

Vincent Butler
08-11-2014, 22:19
Be interesting to see as Pahlava (Parthia in EB). Definitely heavy cav and horse archer. Back to RTW, Phraaspa should be your first target. For me, next time I start, I will try to kill Campus Sakae's population growth, just leave some EI for garrison, and use that army against Seleucia, or elsewhere if needed. Maybe use some of Susa's army there as well, or use Susa (depends on what it has) to immediately carry out an offensive before the enemy even reaches Susa, keep the fight out as far as possible. It seems conquering is imperative, whereas with Rome or Greece you can trade some first. At least a strategy worth trying, and if it doesn't work, oh well.

williamsiddell
08-11-2014, 23:29
next time I start

When you do let us know.


It seems conquering is imperative, whereas with Rome or Greece you can trade some first

I find it hard to separate the two. For instance as Greek Cities, all the cities you take have ports. Athens in particular is a great trade hub for cities all around.

Vincent Butler
08-11-2014, 23:48
Right, Athens is awesome, I have had it showing over 12,000 denari. I probably won't start with Parthia till my Greek campaign is over (or gets boring), so no telling how long that will be, will mention it when I do start, probably when I have a battle with Greece that I don't feel like fighting. Maybe I will start one just to try out that strategy. If I do, I will show it. Too bad my Mac version disk is scratched so I can't reinstall it (removed it after botched attempt to install EB mod, do not mod a Mac if you don't know what you are doing), otherwise I would try it now. I have to wait till I get home. Rome and Greece start with good trade, Greece especially, so if you want to trade with say Pontus and Egypt you can. Macedon and Rome will attack you, but you can afford to let them start the war. It seems that you need to really go on the offensive with Parthia to gain some good trade, Greece it is not as necessary. By the way, how do you guys post the screenshots?

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 00:06
how do you guys post the screenshots?

My method.

PC: Press PrtSc and the .tga file is saved to the tgas folder on your disk.
To find the tgas folder - open computer from the start menu. Select the C: hard drive. Type 001.tga into the search box at the top right.
Wait for the search to complete then select the file - right click on it and select 'open file location' and the folder with all your screenshots will open.

Sort the folder by date modified and your latest screenshot will be at the top. Double click on that file to see it and check it's what you want. You need to convert tga to jpg and upload to the net - view on the net and copy and paste the path into your post.

I'm looking forward to seeing some :)

ReluctantSamurai
08-12-2014, 00:21
For me, next time I start, I will try to kill Campus Sakae's population growth, just leave some EI for garrison

Again I make the suggestion to relinquish Sakae, and disband anything you can't use. You saw what happens in ws's campaign, and it's happened in virtually every Parthian campaign I've played. With Alanni so close, Sakae will become Scythia's first target. I know it's counter-intuitive to give up a town that can make you money (bad for a poor-to-begin-with faction), but the repeated Scythian incursions are both a PITA, and a gradual drain on funds. Not saying it's the best way, but it removes a tempting target. Ship what's left of your garrison south for the push to Seleucia. The lost income from Sakae will be made up quickly.

[I still think you should start with Armenia until you get real familiar with horse archer fighting.]


By the way, how do you guys post the screenshots?

I use FRAPS. I then convert the .tga to .jpeg (I usually edit the pics for clarity or cropping) and upload to Photobucket. FRAPS is a free d/l, and works quite well for me.

Vincent Butler
08-12-2014, 00:23
So how do I upload it to the net? I guess that is what I was wondering. I don't know if I can paste the picture into this thread, my permissions says I may not post attachments, I don't know if that would be an attachment. I guess I can attempt it, though that will have to be when I get home as well. Perhaps somebody in the know can clarify how that works. I do see an insert image option in the toolbar.

ReluctantSamurai
08-12-2014, 00:27
Pick your photo host (there are several out there---mine is Photobucket), and start an account (they're free). Once you have an account, you can upload directly from whatever file you have your screenies stored.

Vincent Butler
08-12-2014, 00:37
Scythia targets Sakae? In the few Parthian campaigns I have done, only two or three on E/E, I have not seen that, but I may have just explained why, or they petered out too quickly. I guess your way makes sense, but I will probably attempt my way first. I will not fortify it against attack, just kill population growth and have minimum number there for public order. If I do achieve ZPG there right off the bat, that should take care of the unrest, right? Keeping it should distribute the cost out more. If Scythia attacks I will let them have it, just disband the units inside and let them take the city. WS, you are on VH/VH in your campaign, right? I may try Armenia first, I would have but my brother has one with them right now, though he is currently playing BI instead. Whatever I do, I will keep you guys posted. Right now I am having too much fun decimating Spanish units with my Armoured Hoplites, BWA-HA-HA. Bridge battles against Round Shield Cav. Guess who's winning that one. Only one problem: I can't just retrain my Heavy Peltasts.
I see that the "insert image" just gives the option of posting a URL, so I will have to figure out what I want to do there. The [IMG] code is on, so it says I can embed images into my posts. I will have to try that out.

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 00:47
Scythia targets Sakae?

First Parthian game I played I didn't see Scythia at all before I ended it. This game they attacked Kotais forcing me to take Allani resulting in three further invasions :) I guess what Scythia does depends on whats happening at the other end of it's territory.


So how do I upload it to the net?

I googled '.tga to .jpg' and chose one of the results given for online conversion. Definitely can't recommend any.

I also didn't have a host. I chose tinypics because it has a government department advert on it (if that's a recommendation). Plus all they required was an email address. As RS says there are plenty available.

Vincent Butler
08-12-2014, 01:12
First Parthian game I played I didn't see Scythia at all before I ended it. This game they attacked Kotais
Probably changes from campaign to campaign. I had more public order issues there. Again, I don't think I got ten turns into any of my Parthian campaigns, I may have gotten to five in one of them.
RS, what do you know about the Saka Rauka? They are a steppe faction from EB, and indeed, the name Saka tells you that they come from the region in question. They seem similar to Parthia, though they do get some later Greek-style heavy infantry.

ReluctantSamurai
08-12-2014, 03:50
Scythia targets Sakae?

In my first several Parthian campaigns (which, admittedly, are far fewer than my Armenian camps), they always went after Sakae. When I dumped Sakae (usually within the first 3 yrs), I rarely had problems with them.


This game they attacked Kotais forcing me to take Allani resulting in three further invasions

As Armenia, there's a 50/50 chance they come to Kotais. Unfortunately for the boys in orange, by then, Kotais is a walled city lined with archers:wall: If they try again after the first debacle, I have at least several CA's by then and the drubbing gets worse. So...I don't go after them. I let them come to me, and I bribe every brigand stack containing archers (most cost only several hundred denarii) and put them into Kotais and Artaxarta. They go into Artaxarta for the same reason...when some Parthian Pasha decides he would like to be entertained by his harem in the halls of Artaxarta, he gets to rest instead on the pincushions that once was his invading army~D


RS, what do you know about the Saka Rauka?

Not much. But I found this:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_saka_history.html

Apparently some kind of tribal form descended from the Scythians:shrug:

Vincent Butler
08-12-2014, 06:30
Apparently some kind of tribal form descended from the Scythians
Not too much is known about them. They were once described as "All Saka are Scythians, but not all Scythians are Saka." Congrats on another award, by the way. Started Armenian campaign on M/M, did not get too far before I decided that my "don't start a war" plan was wrong, restarted and went after Pontus. Was moving down to take Halicarnassus, still not wanting to attack Seleucia, Seleucia attacked my three general/four horse archer army with two full stacks of Militia Hoplites. I owned them:hmg:. Took Sardis, when Seleucia besieged I sallied forth and they just ran. On M/M, the enemy is more likely to cut and run to save the army instead of fighting it out. Preparing to go after Halicarnassus. Starting to prepare Kotais for the inevitable Scythian attack. Am allied with Egypt, moving a diplomat towards Greece. Will try to remember to do screenshots.

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 11:57
Probably changes from campaign to campaign

While I had been fighting Egypt and Scythia, rebels had popped up all over the place (not helpful when you're struggling for cash) and I had no spare units to deal with them. So after the big battle at Alanni I took the general and 3 HAs south to start cleaning up. I left my usual peasant garrison in Alanni and stuck a spy in Sarmatae. I saw the next 2 small incursions coming - the first I built 3 HAs and got a heroic victory (still no MotH) then disbanded them. The second I bribed for 6k.

Rebels are a real problem for Parthia. I find I can't auto-resolve at all (to avoid casualties I know I won't take). Plus the small army I had needed boosting by mercs to succeed in some cases. BTW still not seen a merc hoplite including as rebels (which I believe 'slave' means).

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 12:17
when some Parthian Pasha...

Oi - some of those guys are best friends!


Starting to prepare Kotais for the inevitable Scythian attack

No Parthians nosing around?

ReluctantSamurai
08-12-2014, 13:19
Started Armenian campaign on M/M, did not get too far before I decided that my "don't start a war" plan was wrong, restarted and went after Pontus.

Hopefully, you read my Guide to Armenia? It pretty much covers everything you need to know, and how to start out with them.


Am allied with Egypt

About as reliable an ally as the Greeks. Oh wait...they ARE Greeks~D


Seleucia attacked my three general/four horse archer army with two full stacks of Militia Hoplites.

Wow...it's rare for Seleucia to be the aggressor. Usually it's me going after them.


I owned them

We'll make a horsemen out of you yet:bounce:


While I had been fighting Egypt and Scythia, rebels had popped up all over the place (not helpful when you're struggling for cash) and I had no spare units to deal with them.

Another reason for staying the heck away from Scythian regions...too many brigands. Scythia, Britannia, and Germania seem to get more than their share of them...only in the vastness of the steppes it takes forever to get to them.


still not seen a merc hoplite including as rebels

You won't see them in rebel stacks much, but in the six regions I posted above, you can recruit them as mercs.....


No Parthians nosing around?

They nose around alot, but in my games, when the AI takes a look at what's sitting inside Artaxarta...they go away without attacking. I did have them lay siege to Artaxarta once, mainly because the their army had one of their two starting cataphracts in it. Vanilla archers don't do a heck of alot of damage to Cats, but each attempt by me to break their siege cost the AI 10-12 horsemen. On the third attempt, I sallied the entire garrison, overwhelmed what was left of their Cat unit, and drove the rest off. They didn't come back again...'course it didn't hurt to have a small cat-army stationed at the border~;)

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 14:30
too many brigands. Scythia, Britannia, and Germania seem to get more than their share of them

The rebels I had to deal with were all in the southern lands. Just about one per region. At the time I sent my general south there were none in Scythia (one has since appeared in Sakae). I've killed about 8 and not surprising others have appeared - interestingly a sequence of 3 in Kotais province. My understanding is each region has a percentage chance of rebels appearing, some higher than others, but that's all it is - a chance. You mention Britain. My last world conquest as Greeks I took Britain and left a small army to deal with rebels. That was a waste of money because precisely zero appeared.


recruit them as mercs.....

I am not disputing what you say, just pointing out my experience for anyone viewing. I've loaded my last saved game and there are no merc hoplites available where I was able to check (Pontus, Parthia, Armenia and Seleucia). I'm sending my little rebel-busting army into Scythia to deal with the rebels in Sakae - I hadn't seen merc hoplites previously up there, maybe I will this time.

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 15:03
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcMSUmyn5foJooh4l5k2TGxc#.U-od2WMel60

Britain and Ireland when I finished playing - no devastation (I checked the cities), and the army I left in London.

ReluctantSamurai
08-12-2014, 15:32
My last world conquest as Greeks I took Britain and left a small army to deal with rebels. That was a waste of money because precisely zero appeared.

I think all those watchtowers has something to do with that:creep:


I am not disputing what you say, just pointing out my experience for anyone viewing.

It's not what I'm saying...it's what the descr_mercenaries file sez....Sakae, Alanni, Sarmatae, Maeotis, Scythia, and Bosphorus....all have merc hoplites for hire:book2:

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 15:50
I think all those watchtowers has something to do with that

I think some people don't realise how useful watchtowers are - at 200 a go they're great value.

I have wondered if the have any effect other than as spies. This is a quote from elsewhere in this site (frogbeastegg’s Guide to Rome)


Contrary to popular enduring rumour, watchtowers do not reduce or prevent rebel stacks spawning

Vincent Butler
08-12-2014, 17:27
No Parthians nosing around?

No, but Seleucia just attacked Artaxarta with a double full stack army. My garrison is a general, a Cataphract, two HA's, and two Peltasts. a I sallied forth, but twice they charged their Militia Cav at my HA's, the first time the charge took out seven of my guys, then my Cataphracts got ahold of the MC and they took off. Second time the MC decimated the HA's before I could get my general over there. My general got tangled with Phalanx Pikemen who took longer to rout than I anticipated (still too used to E/E where they would have routed when the General hit), ditto the Cataphracts against Militia Hoplites. That battle ended a draw, I ran out of ammo and did not want to take more casualties than I had already taken. I am sallying out, I think I will target their missile troops (Peltasts and MC) so my own Peltasts can hit their MH. My HA's have 22 and 29 left, general is down to I think nine, Cats into the twenties or thirties, I don't remember. I probably will dispatch some reinforcement HA's, as Kotais now has Heavy Spearmen and stone walls. I am avoiding going after Scythia, their is a half strength Rebel army on the bridge north of Kotais, so I am leaving them there as a buffer against Scythia, not much trade to come from Alanni, anyway.

About as reliable an ally as the Greeks. Oh wait...they ARE Greeks
I have found Egypt to be a pretty steady ally, actually. Greece, Rome, and Britain are horrible allies:thumbsdown:. My wars with Egypt are almost always started from a neutral stance, and then with a blockade. Speaking of Greeks, I distrust the large army they have near Sardis.

it's rare for Seleucia to be the aggressor
I guess it was too much temptation, four HA's and three generals, all cav vs MH, well, there was one unit of Levy Pikemen and one Peasant unit as well. I like to distract infantry with one unit and volley them from behind with another:dizzy2:.

williamsiddell
08-12-2014, 19:47
twice they charged their Militia Cav at my HA's

That's been a disaster for me several times. The worst was when I had 3 Horse Archers and one was charged by ordinary cavalry (it might even have been rebels). My HAs retreated to the red line and then routed. A third of my army just gone.


Cats into the twenties or thirties

And no cataphract barracks nearby no doubt. As Parthia I ended up down to a unit with 1 cat before I got the barracks at Antioch.

Sounds like you've got a serious fight on you're hands.

Vincent Butler
08-12-2014, 20:13
I think I can handle it, especially as I can just withdraw to force a draw. I will be reinforcing anyway. Their phalanx pikemen are gone, as are all but one of their Militia Cav and numerous MH units. They came from the Phraaspa side, so I was totally unprepared. No, no Cat stables, can't afford one right now, though Kotais may be getting one soon after this. Money is a bit low, I will have to suspend building for a couple of turns.
That is another thing about EB. Your barracks is where you train your infantry, cav, missile, and siege units. Different ports give different ships, you actually need a naval port to build warships. Again, more expensive, longer to take as turns are by season, four turns to a year instead of two, but considering 15,000 is the cost of the max barracks (you have to build levy barracks separately, same costs I think), it is cheaper than building multiple barracks, archery range, and stables, as the top levels of each in RTW are 9,600 apiece, not including prices to get to that point.

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 00:14
My HAs retreated to the red line and then routed. A third of my army just gone.

Yep, you learned the hard way just like everyone else (including myself) that you MUST micro-manage vanilla horse archers.....constantly. For Armenia, the task gets easier once you begin recruiting Cataphract Archers. They can take care of themselves against anyone's cavalry, so they don't require constant attention.

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 00:24
vanilla horse archers

It still happens even though I try to keep an eye on it! it's easy in a big battle for an enemy cav unit to charge out of the ruck without me realising what's going on til it's almost too late.

Vincent Butler
08-13-2014, 00:36
I would still say it is a good idea to have vanilla HA's along, if only for running down the enemy, CA's are more of a specialized unit. Armenia does not get a light cav unit otherwise. Also being more nimble, HA's can run around the enemy flanks better, whereas with the CA's you would more use them as a static emplacement, and if necessary they can smash the enemy, though that task is better left to the Cataphracts. Chariots will not be a major factor, especially once Egypt is gone, and Egypt usually fields two or three, or sometimes more units of chariots with each army, so two CA's might be a good idea. An all cav army seems like it might require too much micromanagement. I guess I will have to experiment, four HA's alone with two generals will not do when I have to fight Rome. WS, are you still on Skirmisher Cav generals? I don't know what I prefer, the missile generals or the post-Marian Cataphract generals. I think I would rather have the Cats, though the pre-Marians can run people down better. But HA's can do it while shooting, so there is really no real need for the generals to do it, I think Cats are better.

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 01:28
I would still say it is a good idea to have vanilla HA's along, if only for running down the enemy

You pretty much have to until you cross the mts. to Tarsus and Antioch. After that you should have enough money to start recruiting Arab Cavalry. If you've never used them before....trust me, no other cav unit is as quick in the desert (read as fleeing enemy generals no longer get off the battlefield~D).

Vincent Butler
08-13-2014, 01:37
I don't like using Mercs, I will do it though, for the reason that I can't retrain them and they can only be recruited regionally. Most of the time I use them to increase the size of my army, though units like the Cretans, Spanish, Peltasts, or slingers I will recruit to be part of my army. Historically mercs were used widely, so I guess I could just recruit them to take over a region and leave them there when I leave. I use some Arab Cav, more as a unit to fill an army. Taking out generals as they run would be nice, I did not realize they had that speed advantage.

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 07:25
You can check out their stats here:

http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/info/units/MercUnits/

They can be found in these regions: Regnum_Palmyrae, Arabia, Nabataea, Sinai. The ones found in Palmyrae and Arabia come with an experience chevron.

They have double the attack and charge value of HA, and a total defense of 11 vs. 3...so they can stand quite well in limited melee (even better with armor/weapon upgrades) and not just chasing routers. They utilize the same open formation horse archers do.

As to not being able to retrain...I just keep an extra around solely for replacement. Their replenishment rate is fairly fast, and you can recruit from two regions (Arabia & Palmyra, IIRC).


their is a half strength Rebel army on the bridge north of Kotais, so I am leaving them there as a buffer against Scythia

Heheheh......use the very same tactic, myself, a defending army with no upkeep costs other than slight devastation:bounce:

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 09:10
it is a good idea to have vanilla HA's along

I'm new to horse battles and there's a tactic I've been considering but not yet used. I usually have 3 Eastern Infantry along for sieges. Where I see cavalry amongst the enemy army I'll set up with a front line of EI, loose formation and stretched as thin as they'll go. Horse Archers set up in a line just behind. The EI will have two functions - absorb enemy missiles and stop a cavalry charge long enough for me to target the enemy cavalry with all my HAs.


An all cav army seems like it might require too much micromanagement

Aye, too much like hard work for me too. I'm always looking for the easy option.



missile generals

Had to get used to those - I try to use up the missiles ASAP and then use them as traditional heavy cavalry.


I don't like using Mercs

I avoid them too, especially if I'm strapped for cash. I only consider them if they fill a functional hole in my army, or if I'm short-handed.


I did not realize they (Arab cavalry) had that speed advantage

Same here.

a half strength Rebel army on the bridge north of Kotais

Yep, good idea - provided you know Scythia is coming, otherwise they're just another strain on your already tight purse. Plus they might be a cheap source of reinforcement. When I take Mazarka I send a general all the way to Hatra building watchtowers, then sit back and wait for the inevitable rebels on that road. The Egyptians always send a large army by that path - might as well let them kill the rebels :)

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 09:24
Okay, that's it! I'm gonna kick War Elephant ass. I was attacked by a full Greek army including 8 Armoured Hoplites (I only ever have 3 in my own armies). I charged (if that is the right word) a war elephant unit into one of the AH. The elephants promptly routed back through my own troops. I exited the battle just in time to stop me smashing the computer screen.

I've taken the elephants aside and given them a good talking to. They've been told that next time I'm gonna park them in defensive mode well away from my own troops to take advantage of their high hit points and good defense and if they don't attract plenty of enemy fire they'll be disbanded next turn. I hope that does the trick.

RS - you can keep them :) BTW have you seen the AI using flame arrows against them.

I've just seen a merc hoplite in Alanni. :balloon:

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 14:05
Sadly, my war elephants are now pushing up daisies. :wings:

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 14:57
An all cav army seems like it might require too much micromanagement.


Aye, too much like hard work for me too. I'm always looking for the easy option.

Do you two not know about the grouping function? Or the "draw' method...where you draw out where you want your units to go (and you can do multiple units at the same time)?:inquisitive: I certainly don't manage a 20-unit Cat army individually one-by-one:dizzy2:


I try to use up the missiles ASAP and then use them as traditional heavy cavalry.

I usually do the opposite...remove skirmish mode and fire-at-will, then turn on FAW when chasing routers....


I did not realize they had that speed advantage.

Same here.

I know my posts can be a bit long-winded and boring, but......I've been touting the advantages of Arab Cavalry in desert conditions for quite some while now:wall:


The elephants promptly routed back through my own troops. I exited the battle just in time to stop me smashing the computer screen. RS - you can keep them :) BTW have you seen the AI using flame arrows against them.

Sigh...Your commanding generals attributes are...??? Your support units were...??? You have to understand the strengths/weaknesses of the unit before you can use them properly. First Rule...Ellies primary purpose is not to kill the enemy, but to cause disruption. Ellies, on their own, do not cause a lot of fatalities. You can see this if you zoom in close...they knock down or toss enemy soldiers, most of whom get back up. This leads to the Second Rule....Ellies need support in the form of a cavalry charge. I cannot stress this enough. If you read through the Ellies thread in the Ludus Magna, you will see this stated repeatedly by various posters. Once your Ellies hit, pull them back out of the line and let your cavalry clean up the mess. Regroup them, and find another point in the enemy line to disrupt.

In Shogun, there was a similar unit that gave players endless frustration....muskets. For players that learned how to use them, there was great joy and satisfaction at demolishing superior enemy numbers. For those that didn't know how to use them...well, computer screens had a rough life:laugh4:

As to the use of fire arrows...I've only ever had "baby elephants" go amok on me...never, ever, had a War Ellie or an Armored Ellie go bezerk. I actually prefer enemy archers to waste their time shooting at my ellies because there's simply no effect.

In any case, Parthia gets Heavy Cats so there's no overriding need to use Ellies.


I've just seen a merc hoplite in Alanni.

Not all mercs populate their respective regions right away. Some take time to be available, and after that are available based on the replenishment rate given in the desrc_mercenaries file.

Vincent Butler
08-13-2014, 17:27
Do you two not know about the grouping function? Or the "draw' method...where you draw out where you want your units to go (and you can do multiple units at the same time)?
I know about grouping and drawing, but I think four HA's is about the max I can handle at one time. For how I use them, the group and draw won't help, since they only stay in the same area, not together, I use pairs, one unit to divert the enemy, one to shoot them in the back. I will usually have one pair on either side of the enemy army to hit the wings. That tactic requires supporting heavy cav to protect against the enemy's own cavalry. I guess I need to upgrade my stables to at least Cat Archers or Cats, whichever one is first. Will need to build up my money supply. In my Armenia campaign, Parthia finally attacked by besieging Artaxarta. I was tired of fighting battles by then, and Pontus also besieged Sardis, so I got off the game and played some BF1942.

I've been touting the advantages of Arab Cavalry in desert conditions
I remember one of your posts, you said something to the effect that only Light Lancers are faster. Keeping a supply chain of AC seems like too much bother, especially when you I destroy most armies so that they rout anyway, and up north I can hire Barb Cav mercs, I know they are not as good, but they would only be for running routers down anyway.

BTW have you seen the AI using flame arrows against them
Yes, I have, in a town, I moved my elephants out of range, so I will take RS's word that they do not run amok from arrows, they do sometimes when they get boiling oil from trying to batter in a gate, if they don't all die first. I know that I have seen at least War Elephants go amok from boiling oil, I have not used Ellies enough to see how my own do in battle.

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 18:33
I think four HA's is about the max I can handle at one time

As you get more proficient with them, that number will increase. You begin to get a sense of how long you can have your attention elsewhere before you need to come back.


I guess I need to upgrade my stables to at least Cat Archers or Cats, whichever one is first.

Cat Archers come first and somewhat eases the need for micro-managing. If you get Vahagan advanced enough, and combined with an armory, you get +1 or +2 exp chevrons along with armor....sweeeet.


In my Armenia campaign, Parthia finally attacked by besieging Artaxarta. I was tired of fighting battles by then, and Pontus also besieged Sardis, so I got off the game and played some BF1942.

You made two mistakes, IMHO. One you already identified yourself...splitting your empire. The second is not eliminating Pontus before taking on the Seleucids. While you are picking up some nice money-making cities, you don't have the cash to fight a multi-front war, and your better units require cities to reach 6k and you need the time to construct the barracks. Pontus, the GC, and the Seleucids get decent enough troops to fight you without the need for more advanced barracks. So...grab Sinope, Mazaka, and Nicomedia quickly while eliminating Pontus, then consolidate while developing your infrastructure. Parthia is easy to contain...once their two starting Cat units are gone, they are no threat for a long time. Once you get to Heavy Spear and CA's, it's like swatting a gnat~D

Once you get Sinope to start producing Heavy Spear, you can go toe-to-toe with Greece. Heavy Spear is not as good as an Armored Hoplite, but they certainly can hold their own while you work your majik with the HA's, and certainly not every Greek hoplite is going to be of the armored variety.

Bottom line...move slower. That seems like the antithesis to what we discussed earlier (acting like Mongols), but, as Armenia, you need to balance the needs of consolidation with conquering. You really start to roll only after you can start filling out your armies with Heavy Spear and Cats.


so I will take RS's word that they do not run amok from arrows

They do not run amok from arrow fire ONLY if you have them in the hands of a better than average general that has morale-boosting qualities/ancillaries (a cavalry general is optimal as ellies are classified as cavalry, but those kind of generals take some time to develop). I cannot stress this enough. Ellies are too expensive to waste them on a fledgling general with a couple of command stars. I never, ever give them to anyone with less than 5 stars, and a bunch of attributes that boost unit stats...the most important being morale.

Vincent Butler
08-13-2014, 18:55
You made two mistakes, IMHO. One you already identified yourself...splitting your empire. The second is not eliminating Pontus before taking on the Seleucids
Had I not made the first, the second wouldn't have happened. Had I attacked Nicomedia instead of Halicarnassus (still don't know what I was thinking), Seleucia would not have attacked me because my army would not have been where it was. That said, I learned a valuable lesson about what HA's can do to pure infantry armies. Greece has attacked. I promptly kicked their tails. I will train my HA's as garrison in Halicarnassus, then go north to Nicomedia. I posted that Pontus besieged Sardis, it was Sinope. Sardis is rioting because I was unable to afford to upgrade. That should change soon, I first had to upgrade Sinope to a large city, which took more money.

Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach. Psalm 78:65,66 KJV

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 19:52
I certainly don't manage a 20-unit Cat army

And neither do I. I rate them as too slow, and HA battles are too long as it is. I know about the grouping function - I don't use it much because I mostly use smaller armies that are easily controlled as it is.


long-winded and boring

Not at all. Doesn't mean I won't disagree though.


never, ever, had a War Ellie or an Armored Ellie go bezerk

Fine - my experience is the opposite (never seen ellies not go amok). You're sold on them, I'm not - they're hard work and expensive and I can win without them.

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 20:17
I was tired of fighting battles

That's my main gripe with Parthia - long missile battles and, because of low cash, auto-resolve is practically not an option.


I destroy most armies so that they rout anyway

I have used AC occasionally, but like you say I can win without them. Against Egyptians I sometimes pick up mercs. Usually there are camel options and AC - in the past I've chosen the camels (mostly archers for their range).


Yes, I have, in a town

I think I've only seen the AI using flamed missiles (archers and onagers) in sieges and I don't use them myself. I don't build archers as Parthia, but I'll take a couple of units along in the desert and see what happens with flames. And I've finally found a use for incendiary pigs - apparently they are 'very likely' to make ellies run amok.


I never, ever give them to anyone with less than 5 stars

You clearly enjoy detailed gameplay - I just use the units available then and there.

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 21:23
Fine - my experience is the opposite (never seen ellies not go amok)

And you didn't answer my two questions about the leadership and support. My guess is that you had neither, and that's why they run bezerk. It's like sending a tank company out to do battle under the command of the battalion chaplain and without infantry support....they get murdered.


You clearly enjoy detailed gameplay - I just use the units available then and there.

I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my experience. Trust me, I went through the same thing when I was first learning how to use them. And my reaction was the same...I quit using them. But if you're going to 'use the units available', and you want to play Parthia, Carthage, or Seleucia, you should learn how to use them effectively. They are a battle winner like few units in RTW are.


That's my main gripe with Parthia - long missile battles and, because of low cash, auto-resolve is practically not an option

Ahem....you did ask which faction provides the biggest test....and now you are finding out why~;)

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 21:33
leadership and support

Leadership was terrible - the Greeks assaulted my city with little within, my main army was outside trying to survive. Support: 2 generals just behind, but the ellies were taking so long to get to grips I had to deal with action elsewhere and they had routed by the time I got back.

I can organise my armies - what I mean is if you're running three armies for instance you have to use what generals are around.


you did ask which faction provides the biggest test

Not complaining about that. It's definitely entertaining and a test - doesn't mean I like it all :)

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 21:56
Update on my Cavalry Commander of Genius: Still no more kids after 10 years. Scarring may be responsible for that. Soligdianus the Mange is however belying his name with 3 young kids.

BTW I've got 10 generals but no military genius so far (235bc)

Vincent Butler
08-13-2014, 22:28
I know at least with Rome, they take a while to have kids. Barbarians, no. Realistically it probably was the other way around, Julius Caesar said that for the Germanians, to have had knowledge of a woman before the age of twenty was a disgrace, and the longer you waited, the more prestige you had.

you have to use what generals are around
Quite so. Later on, if I don't get good generals, I will just take an additional heavy cav and use him as the captain. Roman generals usually have to work for it, though I have seen a general come of age with seven stars, don't ask what traits he had as I don't remember. Military Genius was probably one of them. Those kind are very rare, usually I don't see higher than three or four.

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 22:38
Leadership was terrible...Support: 2 generals just behind, but the ellies were taking so long to get to grips I had to deal with action elsewhere and they had routed by the time I got back.

So fail on the two biggest rules regarding ellies. Any wonder why they underperformed?:no:

Two general units is meager support to begin with...and they went elsewhere temporarily, leaving the ellies essentially without support. Ellies are far slower than cavalry, and you have to take that into consideration. When I echelon a cav unit behind them, I send the ellies off first, and when they are about halfway to their target I send the cav. The ellies get a short time to rumble about after their initial impact, and then the cav hit. The ellies are then backed out of the line to regroup. It's a deadly combo.


Update on my Cavalry Commander of Genius: Still no more kids after 10 years.

Bad luck of the draw:shrug:

And speaking of your Cavalry Commander of Genius...why weren't the ellies under his direct command? That's a 10 star leader and the kind you need to command elephants:inquisitive:

35yrs into the game is not enough time in my experience. It's usually the second or third generation that gets the 16 year old military genius.

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 23:04
And speaking of your Cavalry Commander of Genius...why weren't the ellies under his direct command?

He was one of the generals in behind (and I didn't take the generals with me - I was readjusting other units).

Here's the problem. I had 12 units including the elephants facing a tough size 20 Greek with 8 AH. It was Ancyra and I decided not to risk my army in a city the Greeks were going to besiege. So I parked them outside and left a merc light inf inside. The Greeks besieged with the big army and a smaller one adjacent. I assassinated their general and then they assaulted.

My leadership was therefore poor, but so was theirs (no general). The target AH in question was marching and had spears in the air when the elephants attacked, and I reckon in those circumstances it is a poor show that the elephants couldn't last the minute I was away. It makes me think that where leadership is equal (e.g. both sides have good generals) the same would happen.

Parthia aint exactly a general producing factory - I'll keep my fingers crossed.

ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2014, 23:28
I reckon in those circumstances it is a poor show that the elephants couldn't last the minute I was away. It makes me think that where leadership is equal (e.g. both sides have good generals) the same would happen.

I will say this one last time, and then no more gaff from me...it's not the elephants, it's the player using them. Lack of experience on how to use them and when to use them. When you get in some good experience with them, your battles will look more like the Carthaginian elephants in the game into...~;)

williamsiddell
08-13-2014, 23:48
no more gaff from me

Same here. But there is divided opinion about elephants, including with experienced players. In a real battle (i.e. not involving the AI) using elephants will be like a slow heavyweight boxer telegraphing a right hook. Where the elephant attack will come will be no surprise to the enemy. Against the AI I don't expect to get much more experience :) They're just too fiddly.

Vincent Butler
08-14-2014, 00:41
your battles will look more like the Carthaginian elephants in the game intro
Who used by the AI would get owned by the Praetorian Cohort, against the cav maybe a different story. If the AH were marching with phalanx up, they should not have decimated the Elephants. Same thing happened to my Cataphracts against Militia Hoplites. They don't get their anti-cav bonus with spears up, do they?

williamsiddell
08-14-2014, 01:06
AH were marching with phalanx up

I've agreed with RS that I've said enough about a certain unit which will remain nameless (let's just say it's got big ears). Aye, it was a disappointing outcome.

Vincent Butler
08-14-2014, 01:15
Actually I am curious in general, phalanx units not in phalanx don't get the bonus vs cav, right?

ReluctantSamurai
08-14-2014, 02:27
If the AH were marching with phalanx up, they should not have decimated the Elephants.

They didn't:


a war elephant unit into one of the AH. The elephants promptly routed back through my own troops.


Who used by the AI would get owned by the Praetorian Cohort

Reverse that and it's the Praetorians who get owned.


They don't get their anti-cav bonus with spears up, do they?

They shouldn't, but there might be an issue there that needs investigation.

ReluctantSamurai
08-14-2014, 04:53
Same thing happened to my Cataphracts against Militia Hoplites.

Cataphracts and Elephants are two of the most powerful units in the game. They are not, however, invincible. Set them on an impossible task...let them get flanked or overwhelmed by sheer numbers and they will fail. A single Cat or Ellie charging head-on into a group of enemy units does not exactly instill fear and disruption. But a wall of flesh and steel bearing down on enemy lines and striking at full charge, will likely win the battle for you right then and there.

I'll get down off of my soapbox now:soapbox:

:creep:

williamsiddell
08-14-2014, 06:49
phalanx units not in phalanx don't get the bonus vs cav, right?

There seem to be lots of things about this game that are not fully known, mostly I think because much of how the AI behaves is not open to plebs like us. Two examples - ten years on and I still can't get a definitive answer about rebel spawning and I have no idea of how Man of the Hour is decided. The best you can do is run little tests if you come across possible issues like that to satisfy yourself.


I'll get down off of my soapbox now

Too late! Those things with big ears? I am now willing to admit I was talking about elephants. It's true the elephants had routed and not yet gone amok (usually only a matter of time though). I've only just discovered you can kill them off when they do.


A single...Ellie

My understanding is even if only one of a group of elephants is surrounded the whole lot can amok.

Finally, i think they did a good job with the AI considering how old the game is (though I doubt if modern AI is much better), but I only rate it as maybe as clever as a crow.

RTW2 up to patch 14?

VB - I know you're interested in history. Have you seen the reports of a large tomb that's just been found in Macedonia from about the time covered by this game?

williamsiddell
08-14-2014, 12:20
My final word (mainly because I have no elephants left). I had built another War Elephant in Antioch before the debacle at Ancyra so I sent it south against Egypt. A big battle outside Palmyra. This time I kept the ellies wide attacking one wing with support from 2 cats and 3 gens. It was doing well having trampled several units and I was arranging to flatten a routing unit with my generals when I spotted the red flag in the view. They still had 42 left but had gone amok. I used my new found ability to end them - only just in time as they were turning toward my generals. I couldn't see anything obvious to cause the amok so I came to the conclusion that a nearby Nubian phalanx had released some mice. Interestingly after the battle there were still 15 elephants left. How they survived a spike in the brain is beyond me, suffice to say I think they'll be worse than ever. (still not seen ellies that didn't go amok)

williamsiddell
08-14-2014, 14:04
Broke my duck. Battle outside Antioch. Sent the 15 elephants after a chariot archer and they chased them out of the battle and finally routed them for a loss of 2. Those spikes must have had a beneficial effect.

ReluctantSamurai
08-14-2014, 15:41
i think they did a good job with the AI considering how old the game is

Some aspects are good, others are abysmal. The switch to a 3-D map had a lot to do with that. In Shogun I/Med I, the AI was sharp and aggressive...many players coming back to Shogun/Med after the RTW honeymoon was over, were getting their a$$es kicked because they had grown accustomed to the passive and erratic RTW AI. Pathfinding on the campaign map is atrocious...just play a bit with FOW off. Stacks mill about with no real purpose...generals pop out of a city or town, meander out to their favorite pi$$ing post, then reenter the next turn. Stacks will bypass an obvious enemy (brigands or an opposing factions) to seek an enemy many turns away from where they are. Most factions build far too much navy at the expense of ground troops...particularly bad when said faction is losing one settlement after another from a lack of ground troops. The list goes on and on....like I said, just watch how the AI performs by removing FOW.

Vincent Butler
08-14-2014, 17:37
Elephants are awesome against chariots, good for fighting Egypt and taking care of both types of chariot units. Egypt does have lots of archers, of course, so if you are paranoid about flaming arrows...Actually that would be a good time to see how they react, to satisfy your own mind. If they do amok, just spike them. I have seen it mentioned before, how after you kill your elephants you can get them back.

generals pop out of a city or town
Hilarious to watch. Does anybody know what a diplomat is attempting whenever they look like they are negotiating with you, but nothing comes up? Are they attempting a bribe?

Stacks will bypass an obvious enemy (brigands or an opposing factions) to seek an enemy many turns away from where they are
I have mentioned this in another thread, in BI I don't know how many hordes I have seen bypass multiple settlements and hit Campus Lazyges. Always Campus Lazyges. I don't know if it is hard-coded that way because it starts out rebel, or what, but my brother and I have both noticed it. Now it could be they are hard-coded to target the human player, and Campus Lazyges was many times the closest settlement. That said, I have seen them skip Campus Gothi and hit Campus Lazyges. By the way, double Schiltrom by each hole in the walls/gate, just a little space between them, really good strategy for dealing with Hordes.

williamsiddell
08-14-2014, 21:37
I wondered why everything seemed to be going so slowly (apart from the long battles and the days off in-between). Then it clicked - I'm fighting four factions :) Scythia - strong enough up there to attack starting with Sarmatae. Pontus - still has a fair army but I was able to bribe the closest small one. Greeks - I was heading for Sardis, but they've just now besieged Ancyra with their last remaining army (all militia this time). I'll take them on next time I play. Egypt - just taken Palmyra (12k pop slave boosted Hatra, Salamis and Ancyra who can all now build) after 2 turn end battles against three armies. Plenty of cash. My days of fighting rebels are over at least until they get too expensive.

Vincent Butler
08-14-2014, 22:48
You seem to bribe rebels a lot. How can you afford it, it is cheaper to defeat them. I know most of them want at least 3,000 denari, and at this stage I know I can't afford it. If you bribe an army at those prices every couple of turns, that will put a real drain on your finances, from what you have described. Later on I will bribe rather than get an army together, but early on it is destroy.

williamsiddell
08-14-2014, 23:35
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcNnl3yIYt6Hboh4l5k2TGxc#.U-03S2PP-9s
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcMw6EjmMQ2POIh4l5k2TGxc#.U-062mPP-9s
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcOckFnUOLFFw4h4l5k2TGxc#.U-03nmPP-9s
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcOrKSdbxFmfOIh4l5k2TGxc#.U-03vWPP-9s

You might need a magnifying glass but there are no rebels on the map except for 2 in the north of Scythia. One is a general and my assassin has just died of old age. The other I'll take with the small army next to it (my diplomat is off screen to the left). Note 66k cash at start of turn. I have several cash cow large cities and most of what I need is already built - small cities are still at the peanuts building stage.

Vincent Butler
08-15-2014, 01:48
Ok, at that level you can afford to bribe. I assumed you were still down around 10,000 at the start of every turn. Nice thing is you really only need to invest in stables, not stable, barracks, and archery range. Destroying the rebel armies is a great way for your commanders to gain experience. I wouldn't say you are at the stage where you can afford an army simply for destroying rebels, but an occasional bribe now and then shouldn't hurt you too bad.

ReluctantSamurai
08-15-2014, 04:04
My days of fighting rebels are over at least until they get too expensive.

With all the money invested in watchtowers (I have never seen anyone build that many:dizzy2:) another entire Parthian army could be rampaging through the rest of Anatolia...:laugh4:


Destroying the rebel armies is a great way for your commanders to gain experience.

That's what I do with my junior commanders. Once the next level of horse archers become dominant within my army ranks, all the remaining vanilla HA's get retired to brigand patrol...:shrug:

williamsiddell
08-15-2014, 10:36
Ok, at that level you can afford to bribe

Yep. Each turn it's buildings first, then units, then bribes depending on what I've got left and what I'm gonna need for future turns. I bribe in the order enemy, cities then rebels. For instance, I'll be hanging on to 25k to bribe Halicarnassus (I don't think it'll cost much more). The idea is to take Sardis (or bribe it if the enemy garrison leaves) - then H. And you're right - I'm making just under 15k per turn - something as Armenia you'd kill for :)


you really only need to invest in stables

I don't even do that - all the cities I've taken have one. In fact I delete most military buildings I don't need. It's also the reason I'd choose to attack Parthia first as Armenia. I don't want to take Sinope until the AI has built it's military and the population is large enough for a good enslave boost for the usually slow growing early Parthian cities. When I took Sinope in this game I could build cataphracts for instance, and I had a general in the line of four cities from Kotais across to pop boost.


With all the money invested in watchtowers

I can build 14 watchtowers for the cost of one armoured elephant say, and there is no running cost. I don't mess around I just build where I am. They're so cheap.


That's what I do with my junior commanders

I would but I pretty soon get fed up with that - and I can beat the AI generals anyway.


vanilla HA's get retired to brigand patrol

I keep some cos they're cheap and they're still firing when Persian cavalry have stopped.

williamsiddell
08-15-2014, 11:39
You two have got me thinking. Ta.

I'm gonna try a change of strategy. Pontus has two cities left (Sardis and Nicomedia) and both have populations of approximately 500. I think I'll build another diplomat and try to bribe both at once and take Pontus out of the game. I'll leave Halicarnassus until there is no wonder bonus left from Sardis. The jewel in the crown though is Pergamum. It's flagged as a huge city and since I have 4 generals in Turkey the two Pontic ciites plus Ancyra will get a nice boost. I'm thinking I'll boost Hatra and Susa as well. Susa is over 20k pop but slow growing and I want it to get to 24k ASAP.

ReluctantSamurai
08-15-2014, 12:14
something as Armenia you'd kill for

Maybe at the stage Vincent is at, right now, but Armenia can do something Parthia cannot....build dockyards. By the time he's headed for Memphis, he'll have more money coming in each turn than he can spend.


It's also the reason I'd choose to attack Parthia first as Armenia.

Not the best choice as Armenia, IMHO, but certainly one that many players have chosen....


I can build 14 watchtowers for the cost of one armoured elephant say, and there is no running cost

The flip side is that another army could've netted two or three more port cities and, with the added income, you could afford to build an Armored Ellie every turn~;)


I would but I pretty soon get fed up with that - and I can beat the AI generals anyway.

It's still a nice addition to the ranks when every general that comes to the front lines is at 4 or 5 stars already...:shrug:


I keep some cos they're cheap and they're still firing when Persian cavalry have stopped.

There's no question vanilla HA's retain value throughout, but it's kinda fun to have your original starting HA's look like this:

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/aussiebirdman/BSS_10.jpg

williamsiddell
08-15-2014, 12:47
something Parthia cannot....build dockyards

Now you tell me!


another army could've netted two or three more port cities

True - but at the running cost of that other army. I think it's very valuable to see what's happening. I should say I'm about to build more in Palmyra :)


look like this

Aye, I didn't think you'd completely dispense with them. Half-size units? And that general looks particularly bad-tempered 'why have I got the HAs?'

ReluctantSamurai
08-15-2014, 15:00
Mis-spoken on my part...checked the files, and Parthia does get dockyards. Without doing the math, I would guess that Pergamum, Nicomedia, and Sardis would pay the army wages and still have money left over. But it's fun to see how other players deal with the game. Me, I'm with Vincent...kill brigands mostly...bribe where I can use the units I bribe. I'm sure Arame of Rhizus would rather be back home in Armenia enoying the company of his wife and children and tending to his spice trade, but....duty calls:whip: Nonetheless, no sense wasting veteran, highly skilled HA's so I keep them for brigand patrol...

williamsiddell
08-15-2014, 16:27
You have a strong argument - with two armies I think I'd have been in Pergamum by this time. The counter-argument is not just about money for me - it's about style. My basic army at the moment would be 4 HAs, 3 PCs, 2 Cat and 2 EI (ignoring generals). Typically, they'd be lined up HAs in front with PCs behind (using PC longer range to concentrate fire), Cats further back out of any enemy range and ready to move where needed and EIs on the wings to slow fast attacks.

The cost to build and maintain that army would be 2500 then 590 per turn (add 2520 and 490 for a War Elephant). I could do it, but my style doesn't suit. Running another army means twice as much work, even if over a shorter period. But the main problem for me is loss of population during build and repair (however little it may seem) and the location for repair, since I may not have stables nearby. It so happens there is a city in Turkey where it wouldn't bother me - that constant pain Sinope. Elsewhere though I'd be irritated at a city's promotion being delayed by unit build and repairs.

ReluctantSamurai
08-15-2014, 17:08
The cost to build and maintain that army would be 2500 then 590 per turn (add 2520 and 490 for a War Elephant).

Again, without doing the math, Pergamum is much like Athens....a very big trade node. I've had games where Pergamum is actually making more than Athens, and that's not even considering Nicomedia and Sardis. Both Sardis and Pergamum would likely be very developed, and would be money-makers straight away. Repairs and unit builds shouldn't require more than several turns, no? Don't neglect dropping a diplomat into Greece (you can build a single bireme, park it in the Straits of Bosphorus, walk your diplomat across, and then disband the fleet). Having a trade agreement with neutrals will double your sea trade (even if you are already trading without an agreement), which more than compensates for the cost of the bireme.

williamsiddell
08-15-2014, 18:14
I've had trade rights with all the neutrals since I sent a wandering diplomat out early in the game. I've just checked and they're still in place. In this game Sardis doesn't even have a port. Pontus has been using the basic barracks there to churn out Eastern infantry.

Vincent Butler
08-15-2014, 19:55
Pontus has two cities left (Sardis and Nicomedia) and both have populations of approximately 500. I think I'll build another diplomat and try to bribe both at once and take Pontus out of the game
If that is all Pontus has left you won't be able to bribe one of them, capitals, Faction Heirs, and Faction Leaders cannot be bribed. At least, I am pretty sure about capitals. Most likely their faction leader and/or heir will be in one, possibly one in each, if that is the case you cannot bribe them.

With all the money invested in watchtowers
I usually just build watchtowers at places when I am expecting an attack, usually a backstab, or at places like mountain passes. Sometimes I will build them elsewhere, but usually just to keep an eye on my border.

ReluctantSamurai
08-15-2014, 20:06
Faction Heirs, and Faction Leaders cannot be bribed. At least, I am pretty sure about capitals.

True on all accounts. In addition, faction leaders/heirs are virtually impossible to assassinate.


I usually just build watchtowers at places when I am expecting an attack, usually a backstab, or at places like mountain passes.

I build forts in mountain passes as they must be assaulted like towns, giving you time to send a relief force. I like putting onagers and archers inside because they can both shoot over the walls in the case of assault. I also put in a spy so I can get a pretty good idea of enemy troop composition.

Vincent Butler
08-15-2014, 20:37
I use a fort as the Romans to store the army that will hit Rome. I form my garrisons so that they should defeat any reasonable army and then some that the enemy might send against me. So the way I play, I don't really need a fort. One advantage of doing the fighting in the city as I like to do is that their siege weapons won't target your troops, but your buildings instead. Also starting at Stone Walls the towers fire inward and demolish the enemy.

ReluctantSamurai
08-15-2014, 21:43
Yes, archers firing from walls are definitely better, but there are advantages to forts. They block mountain passes completely, forcing a siege or a reroute of an invading army. They serve as a means of storing mercs or replacement troops...nothing more irritating than having your expensive mercs hit with plague; very useful in situations where the nearest settlement is a long ways off like border fighting the Scipii in Libya.

Best use is as a trap. When you don't want a street brawl (like with a horse archer faction), you pop the fort garrison out to attack a besieging army and...now you have a field battle with the invading army caught front and rear by your troops.

Vincent Butler
08-15-2014, 22:24
nothing more irritating than having your expensive mercs hit with plague

Mercs or main conquest army. Speaking of plagues: if you are having public order problems in a town, and a nearby town has a plague, train something in the plagued town and send it over to the unhappy town. Plague kills off population, problem solved. Only trouble is retraining troops. Remove family members if you don't want to risk the plague killing them. As far as popping out, I don't know if it happens to you, but every time I sally forth, the enemy takes off to set up a battle line. Also when they sally forth, they set up a battle line, and my siege towers promptly nail them. I am wondering, not really looking for an answer, why I get my equipment when the enemy sallies out, but they do not get it when I sally out. I am fine with it, give me an advantage, especially with large/epic siege towers. Decimates even UC/PC.

williamsiddell
08-15-2014, 22:31
If that is all Pontus has left you won't be able to bribe one of them, capitals, Faction Heirs, and Faction Leaders cannot be bribed. At least, I am pretty sure about capitals.

I've played 2 turns and moved my army down to next to Sardis. I had indeed forgotten about not bribing capitals. At turn end Pontus attacked with 3 generals and an army of EI. Killed 2 of the generals but one survives in the city. I'll play on maybe tomorrow.


faction leaders/heirs are virtually impossible to assassinate

True - unless you kill the existing ones. For instance Pontus has 3 generals left (all 3 star) and the one in Nicomedia is faction leader. He has a rating of 31% for my 10 eye assassin. I reckon he'll be gone when I play again.

Vincent Butler
08-16-2014, 00:01
Kill the existing one? So the new one will have a greater odds of being assassinated? I do know that when a faction is doing poorly, many of their family members are easier to kill. Typically, and I will pay attention to confirm this, those with a larger bodyguard are harder to kill.

Killed 2 of the generals but one survives in the city. I'll play on maybe tomorrow.
That is the nice thing about having an infantry unit along, when the general runs into the town you can just send your siege equipment to effect an entry and finish him off right then.

ReluctantSamurai
08-16-2014, 00:43
I reckon he'll be gone when I play again.

Doesn't matter. The game will always spawn in a new one...as long as the faction is alive, it has to have a faction leader and an heir. Sometimes the respawn is a better general than the old:creep:


but every time I sally forth, the enemy takes off to set up a battle line

The AI tries that stupid maneuver all the time. It's as good as signing that army's death warrant...a crossing movement right in front of horse archers? Every shot is a flank shot and the losses are horrendous even before melee ensues~:wave:

Vincent Butler
08-16-2014, 01:03
Also sometimes there will be stragglers, and I hit them with heavy cav. I am usually forming my troops how I want them. And on E/E, the enemy would always take off to my right, now they seek the high ground on M/M. They are usually pretty passive, eventually they will move to stop my shelling them, but when I move my HA's back, they move back to their formation. Getting hit in the back while doing it.

Vincent Butler
08-19-2014, 17:52
WS, I have to agree with you: HA's are not a good response to chariots, at least not from my preliminary experience. My depleted HA's (17 men) were being chased by a depleted unit of Scythed Chariots (5 men). I was faster, even though tired, but they were not taking casualties. Maybe a full unit does better against full unit, more arrows against more targets, but the situation was kind of to scale. I guess. Parthia against my HA's at Artaxarta. They had two units of HA's themselves, and the high ground, so I took some casualties before I got to good ground. Then they charged their HA's at my HA's. Now, I have two units to their one, and better experience, and a general. Their HA's got wasted. Seleucia then besieged me, I only retrained one unit of HA's in between, trying to save money. I did not have the money to retrain them all, Sardis kicked me out and went Rebel, so my finances took a hit. So I sallied out in Artaxarta. My general and my HA's took casualties to their archers, again they had the heights initially as they moved when I sallied out. I finished off their SC on my second sally, and their Greek Cav captain got decimated the first battle when he tangled with my General. So they attacked with small reinforcements, but I moved my HA's out before their rams got to my gates, and pumped arrows into their standing Phalanx Pikes and Militia Hoplites. When they finally breached my gates, their units routed as they went through the gates, I guess the number of units I had thanks to two near full Peltast units (the ones Artaxarta starts with) scared them, as they had already taken casualties thanks to my HA fire in their rear. I pursued, and routed all their units, though one Peltast unit tangled with a MH unit that had been chasing my HA's outside the walls and took about 50% casualties. The other army lost their MH to my Scythian Mercs, and their Militia Cav decided to walk down my streets under HA fire and then open fire on me when in range. My super-depleted Cats and General hit them, and they took off. I will try to remember to take screenshots, but I usually get too focused on the battle. This one was 2-1 odds against me, so I was pretty concentrated on the battle. With as much damage as HA's can do, the odds should be better in my favor.

I am....awesome....handsome....awesommme! - Darth Maul, The Empire Strikes Out

Vincent Butler
12-24-2014, 06:21
Well, I finally covered the map as Greece. I had over fourteen million denarii at the end. Could have done it earlier, but stupid civil revolts kept occurring. I was constantly using my wuss strategy, putting my units in the corner of the map and having my phalanx face outwards in a ring from the two sides of the corner. Stupid double gold chevron-silver sword-gold shield uprisings. But I have now covered the map as Brutii, Julii, Seleucia, Macedon, and Greece. Yay, some accomplishment, but it was my first time on M/M instead of E/E. My first time beating it fully on that difficulty anyway.

ReluctantSamurai
12-24-2014, 17:00
My first time beating it fully on that difficulty anyway.

Excellent:2thumbsup:


but stupid civil revolts kept occurring.

When you expand to cover the entire map, it's virtually impossible to avoid this as the distance-to-capital penalties become huge, and likely you are conquering cities that are near full development and therefore hard to culturally convert. Even a ZPG strategy is of little help in this case....

So who's up next?

Vincent Butler
12-24-2014, 20:11
Excellent:2thumbsup:



When you expand to cover the entire map, it's virtually impossible to avoid this as the distance-to-capital penalties become huge, and likely you are conquering cities that are near full development and therefore hard to culturally convert. Even a ZPG strategy is of little help in this case....

So who's up next?
Well, I installed Europa Barbarorum again, and I am Rome (on E/E, the game is harder, especially the financial aspect, but the barbarian units are better too. Some units, such as the Macedonian Silver Shield Pikemen, are incredible), but if I go back to RTW, probably the Scipii. I have not yet covered the map as the Scipii, for some reason I always stop, I think I get bored. If not Scipii, probably Britannia or Gaul. I think I have achieved minimum victory before as Gaul, I know I have as Britannia. The entire map was blue, half from me, half from Scipii. still, I think Romans are the most fun to play as. I guess I could retry Armenia.

ReluctantSamurai
12-24-2014, 20:23
The Scipii are my favorite Roman faction. The Decere...quick access to Africa's riches...central location for fighting the civil war...excellent temples. 5-star admiral's ruling the waves, and dropping my merc ellies onto Italy was the most fun.

Gaul is a very good challenge. Fighting off the Julii, Brittania, and Germania can get quite :dizzy2: With excellent infantry, superior bowmen...should be right up your alley:laugh4:


I guess I could retry Armenia.

Gah! Return to the deserts of the Middle East at your leisure~:smoking:

Vincent Butler
12-25-2014, 06:36
The Scipii are my favorite Roman faction. The Decere...quick access to Africa's riches...central location for fighting the civil war...excellent temples. 5-star admiral's ruling the waves, and dropping my merc ellies onto Italy was the most fun.

Gaul is a very good challenge. Fighting off the Julii, Brittania, and Germania can get quite :dizzy2: With excellent infantry, superior bowmen...should be right up your alley:laugh4:



Gah! Return to the deserts of the Middle East at your leisure~:smoking:
I though you liked Armenia? But it is not my style. I think last time I tried Gaul I did the wrong thing. I think I will take Spain and focus on keeping the Julii in check, then once Spain is mine, go after Rome. I need to be quick, though. But Warband are cheap. I don't know, I will have to think about it, I will be playing EB for a little while anyway.