In reply

[The Shogun]

Guys how are ya doing?

First off let me say that I think we all agree that the best type of competitions are tourneys that are properly moderated and allow players of all abilities to compete against one another. We have stated several times on the site and in the forums that we will support any well organised Clan and site run Tourneys. This includes promoting the events via Honour Days, posting the news and schedules, to even donating prizes. These type of events (as you already know) take a lot of organising. As this is our first game and the Shogun community is still relatively small (but growing all the time), the amount of resources available at this moment in time are obviously a little limited. So these type of fan run events will get all the support I can give, and are a great way to keep the community motivated, as the teams involved to support this come from within the community itself.

The current Clan league is not meant to be the greatest online event ever, but just another event in the expanding Shogun calendar. I was very surprised to get such a hostile reaction for this event considering:

1. It is clear it is not the only event currently happening. But one of several in progress or in planning.

2. That so many of you have already agreed to run your own events with the full support of the official fan site.

3. That a charity donation would be made.

You must also bear in mind that official competitions come under the control of all sorts of legislation depending what country you are in. So this could well mean that we would have to pose various restrictions on different events!

This is no way implying that Dreamtime Interactive (Shoguns producers) does not take the Shogun community seriously. We have a site completely dedicated to supporting the community. It is my job to run this site, support the community to the best of my abilities and provide feed back from the fans to the developers. In short we are dedicated to the Shogun community and take their views very seriously.

As the size of the community increases and more titles appear in the Total War series (and believe me they will), the more resources we can commit to the running of events etc. For the mean time I envisaged a whole host of Clan run tourneys, which we would fully support and as many official events as we could organise while still maintaining / supporting the site and community. This is not a "go and do it yourselves" reply but an invite to work with me to get a myriad of events organised over the next few months.

Any long running member of this community should know by now that we read the forums and take your views in to consideration. If you guys want things done differently then you know the drill, get organised get some concise and structured threads going on the forums, so we can do our best to please the majority. But as I have stated I think where we are at the moment, is an excellent way forward to increase the community and keep the edge of competitiveness in online play.

So I hope that makes things clearer and I look forward to getting more feed back on this issue so we can continue to make the whole online experience as great we possibly can.

Talk to you soon

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The Shogun
Bringinng wisdom in an unwise world

[The Daimyo]

HEYA Richie!

Man, I thought we'd lost you there on that last turn. Thanks for coming by and replying to this forum, and the community. Also, thanks for posting up the news about my site's Tournaments and Terazawa Tokugawa's event. It's a big help all around.
I think you should already know our concerns on these matters, judging from the content of your post, and the fact that we've all been lighting torches and passing out the blow-guns and caltrops around here lately, due to the absence of "the man" (that's you and Ben respectively).
Personally, I've been very worried about the future of Shogun, and the rest of the purposed ideas for new "Total War" games. We all want to see new stuff, and have reassurances that you all are making said new stuff, it's just as simple as that, I think. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
It would be a big help if you all could come by here and the other sites a little more often and perhaps spill the beans or just offer some words of wisdom beyond Sun-Tsu and anything we'd read in the hint guide. I don't mean to put the pressure on you, (actually I would love to put the pressure on the whole team, to get in touch with these die hard fans) but I won't ask it. (Err...THat's Your JOB! hehe)

http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/dvv/cwmjitter.gif
Don't let us drive you crazy or anything, hehe...

"We are your humble servants, Honorable Lord, an we await the completion of our next game or add-on..."
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@http://www.planettotalwar.com

[Erado San]

Yep, I agree.

Although the comments are vaild about the Clan League not being done the way we want it, it is done at least. And the hostile tone of some of the comments is dreadful. Guys, if I put a campaign game together and it's not the way you want it, am I going to get that treatment too? Makes me wanna reconsider...

Bottom Line: At this time we'll have to settle for community efforts that will be supported by CA/DT/EA. The events named above are excellent examples. There's another example in Obake's 'This Campaign Game can Work' thread. I know from experience that CA won't hesitate to support people who put good ideas to work.

And as for CA/DT representatives showing their faces here and in the community forum a bit more often, I agree. I miss Target and Ben, haven't heard from both for some time now. But, I expect they are up to their ears in work and hard to find under the piles of memo's.

Funny though, another rep showed up here a while ago, but people here didn't recognize him as one. While it was so obvious!!! No, I won't say who he was, just pay better attention next time when someone shows that level of insight into the game mechanics.

Keep up the good work, Richie, and realize that the silent majority appreciates what you guys are doing!!!

[Methabaron]

Erado,

Maybe you talking about LongJohn2?, the thread called " Flanking Revisited" showed this person to be very knowledgeable about flanking/moral issues ... and very helpful at that, if he's not involved in the programming one way or another...

Back to the issue here... Erado there is a very significant difference between you and the developers... you are not paid for your job in the STW community!, we never paid for any of your products!... anyone flaming you for your efforts should be insane.

I am an exigent costumer... I prefer to cross the line a little bit sometimes and make THEM be on their toes. Pressure is always good: improve and survive or die. They know it, I know it and you know it. Any market is pretty much like that. But the software market seems much more reluctanct than others to react to customer feedback in general and needs a special treatment.

It is in no way personal.

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-21-2000).]

[DragonCat]

Just showing the flag, as you have done here Shogun, means so much. Knowing that you are paying attention and have things going is all I need to know. I believe, that once we have that info, most of us realize that within "two weeks" we will have some action. There will be some people that are never happy and we know who they are. We need our pessimists just to remind us how good it really is ;-)

"Two weeks", by the way, is totalwar.org jargon that refers to the fact that although no one really knows EXACTLY when a promised thing will come, it WILL eventually come. "Two weeks" is just short hand for "we hear you, we're working on it, and it will be there at some hopefully not too long in the future date"

My humble suggestion is to make sure someone Shows the Flag EACH and EVERY week - even if to say, "nothing new." Just knowing you are there means communication is open. Its when we don't hear anything that makes people go crazy. Its a basic principle of communication to send at least a "keep alive" packet on a regular interval.

Thanks for dropping by and DON'T BE A STRANGER!!



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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[The Shogun]

Thanks for the positive response guys. One thing I will say is that I come by the forums as often as I can and you should all know that by now. What I generally do is to use the Honour Days as a channel for any news or to pick up on hot topics that have been in the forums. And any one under the misconception that the way to get a response from the developers is to send abusive emails is sadly mistaken.


As for the current leagues etc, I think the way we are headed at the moment is spot on for now, if we continue to work together we can come up with some great events which keep the community thriving. One thing I am working on at the moment is trying to get a stats page up. This will have a list of the top players, whose made the biggest leap up the league, who has been in the most battles etc. I am also looking into improving the league itself to stop players hanging at the top when they no longer play. I am considering a penalty system which will start to deduct Honour if a player has not play competitively in say 7 days.

As I said before these kinds of things partly depend on the resources available, but you can rest assured that we are committed to improving things as far as we can.

Later guys!!



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The Shogun
Bringinng wisdom in an unwise world

[Obake]

Shogun/Richie,

If I came across as hostile in my posts regarding the Clan Grand Prix I sincerely apologize.

My intent was not to slam you or the developers, but merely to express my frustration over the way this league specifically was set up and the difficulty it would create for any of the other clans to actually compete.

As you have mentioned we have several fan-run Tournaments currently being developed along with a Web-based online campaign that truly looks like it is going to work.

I am thrilled to see that you are looking into a way to penalize ladder campers and keep the top accessible to all!

Again, please accept my apologies if I came across a bit harsh re the League.


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Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

[Vanya]

I am *REALLY* glad to hear about the anti-ladder camping feature! This will make competitive play more enjoyable knowing that those who move up will have to defend their positions or watch them wither due to inaction.

This is one small step for EA, one giant step for the Shogun community!

[Link Shumeisan]

Hi Shogun,
I apologize for my post on the Community forum but I was really frustated by the way this "clan" league has been done.
It's a great new if you are working on a stats page.
I don't know if that is the way you are working, but you could give us more details on this page just to avoid some useless works as the Current clan league an the league of honour (the small map) are to my eyes.
As I said in some former topics, I think that will all the data you have you can do a great job that requires not a lot of time.
I don't know what the other thinks but I would like to see (with the data currently available I think and so just queries work) at least the top 100 attackers, the top 100 defenders, the Top 100 players of the week and of the month, the top 100 players by map...
But it seems that is the way you are doing.

Thanks for the attention you are giving to the game

LinkShumeisan

[ShaiHulud]

Umm, This probly won't fly, but how bout adjusting the system so all the poorest players aren't constantly camping at the lowest rungs? I mean, I'd like to break in but they've all been staked out and how's a new player gonna get a comfy low rung if he occasionally wins one and immediately gets catapulted into the mediocre ranks? I ask ya... (hehe)

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Widda]

Shogun

Thank you for your understanding and patients regarding our hot and frustrated posts of the last few days. At least you know how emphatic the crew is towards all things Shogun.

Excellent news regarding the unused characters in the ranks but I feel that I must reiterate that if we could edit names and/or transfer characters between clans there would be a whole pile less of these abandoned characters filling the ranks and taking valuable server space...

In appreciation of your time.... Widda.

[This message has been edited by Widda (edited 11-21-2000).]

[The Black Ship]

Thanx Shogun for stopping by! Great to hear from anyone in the know http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Love the idea for dropping non-playing players down the rungs!

How about getting rid of unused characters too! I'll give you 2 names that I'd like to get rid of off EA play :Blackship Yamamoto & BlackshipRA Yamamoto (sorry Leo http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif).

[ShadowKill]

I am Sorry that if what i said. in the post of the clan thing came off as being ummm RUDE. If you are willing to come here and post. and inform us of what is going on i find that very NICE:)

[Rob]

Allowing players to delete/rename their old names would be a big step forward and not difficult to implement I hope.

I doubt it helps the system to run smoothly with all those unused names clogging the database up http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Zen Blade]

In the off chance that you reply again shogun, thanks in advance for the work

I agree with the last post (I think it was the last) that asked for changing names ability.
I think this would be a great improvement.
also, the stats thing would be great
thanks again

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

[Methabaron]

Gentlemen,

Regardless of all the apologies and hurriedly posted expressions of support towards "The Shogun" and CA/DT showed in this thread, the truth is that this thread was initiated in reply to a natural and very much logical reaction of upset costumers. Upset costumer do not tend to lie, just tend to show a natural reaction to underquality delivered product features.

The truth is that "The Shogun" and CA/DT have not yet realized that the last of the community supported events (the clan league) is based on a ranking that already is full of flaws as many of YOU guys have already pointed out somewhere else. "The Shogun" only acknowledges that:

Quote The current Clan league is not meant to be the greatest online event ever, but just another event in the expanding Shogun calendar[/QUOTE]

The way the actual ranks are handled right now would not make the new Clan Leagues qualify even as "another event in the expanding Shogun Calendar".

Many of the top 6 clans are "1 man clan" as starters, others have been without playing since weeks... the list of mishaps goes on.

What this last exemple is showing is that regardless the claims of "The Shogun" for being in touch with the community and being the responsible for the customer feedback everything points out that "The Shogun" has not very often done one of the simplest things: check the battle records, clan records or player records...
It all seems that "The Shogun" has not even been playing very often. In fact it seems like the only feedback he gets is the one coming from some e-mails from some individuals like Erado and others (which is of course great but obviously not enough).

I am nobody to tell The Shogun how to do his job, but if I am allowed I would suggest him to get a copy of Shogun and use it. Also it seems to me that if he had REALLY been in touch with these forums and the community he would have realized by now that the ranking system still has many flaws and you can clearly see that in the results of the top 6 in the new clan league !!, for God's sake !, if he had really known about this he would have never released the Clan League as it is !, that is what scares me a little... he says that he is in touch with the community... well, maybe with SOME individuals of the community, but he is not feeling the real pulse of it.

Of course and as usual I may be completetly wrong.

Metha


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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[Erado San]

No offence, Metha, but you are.

[The Shogun]

Guys

This is exactly the reason why we tend to read the forums regularly and use the Honour Days to post points regarding hot posts and concerns, rather than getting drawn into threads such as these.

Getting drawn into defending the CA/DT is a pointless and time wasting affair. It should be obvious that we read as many posts as possible. In the months since Shoguns release, we have released patches, updated the Honour calculation, made amendments to the online database, and continue to do so all from sensible well structured comments made on the forums and by email. This is an ongoing process and we would have to be the most amazing developers ever, and we may well be :¬), to get it so right first time that we could leave things exactly as they were with out expanding and improving things.

As I have stated before well organised threads that deal with concerns in a sensible and concise manner get the attention of the developers. Personal attacks on the very people who are supporting the community.......well I'll let you work that out for yourself. But this proves my point completely I have wasted time replying to this when I could of been working on more important matters.

And so on to more important matters as mentioned earlier I am trying to free up some resources to do a stats page for Shogun. So far we have the following features on the wish list.

top ten players Straight from the league
biggest mover (i.e. has moved up the largest amount of places on the leader board)
most battles won
most battles fought
most honour gained
Most Honour lost
most successful attackers + favourite maps
most successful defenders + favourite maps
largest clans
most successful clans


Any more suggestions then get a thread going as soon as possible. Also we have a problem with people hanging at the top and not playing any more. We are currently looking in to ways of dealing with this. And I will post the news on an Honour day soon, but we will address this as quickly as we can. The Honour calculation description on the league ASP page is out dated, I noticed the other day. I will this amended as soon as possible but for now here is the description from the community site.

A players current honour score is the running average of the honour score he achieved in his last 30 battles. For a single battle a players honour score is calculated as follows.
Winners honour = ((average of all losing players current honour) capped to within 50 of winners current honour) + 50
Losers honour = ((average of all winning players current honour) capped to within 50 of losers current honour) - 50
All new players start with a current honour score of 100. If a player has not yet played 30 games then his honour score for every game he has not played is assumed to be 100.
So if a player had played 1 game and achieved a score of 120 for that game his current honour would be (120 + (29 * 100)) / 30.
So to push your honour up you must keep playing and beating good players. If you only ever play people with an honour of 50 and beat them every time your honour will only ever be 100. To get your score over 150 you must consistently beat players with a score greater than 100. And so it goes on. To get over 200 (very difficult) you must consistently beat players over 150.
So if you find your honour going down even though you are winning it is because you are playing poor opponents and dragging down your average.

As you well know I do not rise to the bate on this kind of thing (and will not to so in future), but by replying directly, I think I have shown perfectly the diffculties in trying to stay in touch with a community while not getting involved in petty arguments, which is why we tend to not post on the sites as often as we would like to.


Talk to you all soon!!!! And watch the Honour Days for the news on stats page etc.


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The Shogun
Bringinng wisdom in an unwise world

[Gregoshi]

Well said Shogun. We are all perfect drivers when sitting in the passenger's seat.

Gregoshi

[Methabaron]

Well, as I said somewhere before, this is in no way personal and I am happy in my condition of "watchdog" as many others here are. I never intended to get the Shogun involved here directly and as you can see my previous posts adresses him in 3rd person. If he wants to reply thats fine. I would rather prefer him to act. And IMHO they act ver poorly by releasing a Clan League that is based on a flawed system, as starters... (who do they think they were fooling with that??, I guess at least no one in the " I cant believe it" thread).

My messages only intend to wake up some parts of the community that seem very confortable with the current state of things and very easy to satisfy and at the same time make the developers realize it. Thats all.

I will bark for as long I see the community relaxing when the things are still low quality. I for one will not release the tension a bit.

Have fun.

Metha

PS: Gregoshi for God's sake, if I pay my driver to drive I expect him to do it ok, else I will hire another, get it?

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-23-2000).]

[solypsist]

nothing wrong with wanting a good product and support.
there are some probs, and im sure the designers are on the job, maybe just not as quickly as some of us would like. despite that, its a bit humiliating for me to see some of the loudest complainers on this forum start immedietly kissing ass the second theyre thrown a bone. so i respect metha for at least sticking to his guns.
the last thing we need here is division, so lets just get past this and concentrate on seeing how the new patch works.

[IRONLUNG]

Screw the tourney. What about releasing a SDK for mod makers. If anything that would prolong the life of the game.



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IRONLUNG http://smiles.kpd.ru/icon2.gif

[The Daimyo]

Ironlung, I would love for them to do that, but I don't think it's in the cards for quite some time. Besides, how many of you here have 3D Studio Max, and the other little (expensive) programs that would be needed to make stuff with?
I think it best that they keep the code under wraps, especially since they're gonna be turning out some other games using it most likely.
I'd like to see a map editor and a campaign/scenario editor/scripting tool. I'm quite happy with the current graphics, it's the other stuff that's bugging me, such as replay value, online, AI/NPC's, etc...
Of course, making a "Mods" folder (and all the trimmings) would be great too. We who play other games that use this simple thing know that it's the BEST answer to Mods and Mod implementing since Rogue Spear:Urban Ops and some other games started using it.
Perhaps we'll see some news or info on these matters within the next *2 Weeks*.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@http://www.planettotalwar.com

[Methabaron]

Ironlung is completely right.

Screw Lame Clan League Tourneys. The Shogun should only release serious material as Fan Editor Tools and the like... anything like the last Clan League is somehow an insult to our intelligence (which is almost non existant in my case anyways).

Fan Editor tools have been completely forgotten lately... let's rock this place.

Metha


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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[S.O.L]

Well i still think the online honour system sucks and have given up for the mo on line and have pulled out of beta testing .

more league's and stuff wont help. it is just a game and i dont have time to arrange and play a certain amount of games or at specific times.

I want as most want an online campaign or a mod pack creator or game developer tool to do a mod , that's all.

And as for wasting anybodies time mate (shogun)mmmmmm those things you said that where more important to you than replying to posts you dont like.

Well mate I and 10 or so shogun players i have talked to dont really care about such things and would much prefer the above mentioned items to be worked on rather then side issues you are working.

The game is what is important add a online campaign or a GDT , and if you dont like my reply and you feel it is wasting your time.

Then you miss the point it is what we want not what you want. WE KEEP YOU IN A JOB buying your product so i tell you what when Total war 2 hit's the shelfs, I will pass it by, so as not to waste to much of your time.

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The Gaming Union (http://cgi.thegamingunion.co.uk/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi)

[Widda]

With the best thread on this forum being Obakes 'The online campaign can work', you would think that the developers would, seeing as thou its not negative, has a religious following, they would follow the needs of there best users.

The one ask above all through out the official forum that has had minimal response from the developers, and maximum effort from users, is the LAN/Online campaign. Erado san has since day dot been working on it, there are some problems but with constructive thinking as in Obakes thread, these can be overcome.

And if something is not donein this fashion by the developers, they will be seeing more responses such as S.O.L. around... Widda.

[ShadowKill]

damn some of you are just plain mean to THE SHOGUN fuck around and you might not get anything from him. he allready has your money.

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

[Kurando]

I agree with many of the sentiments echoed here: the editor should be first-and-foremost on the developers "to do" list. Of course given that such a release won't make a direct profit it's hard to say what the guys calling the shots will do. Still, I think the community has done an admirable job staying focused even though the game was released quite some time ago + we want to do one better and actually move forward, but first we need the tools to do so.

Hopefully the developers will look to the future of Shogun instead of trying a cash-grab via the release of an expansion pac, or something. We've got some smart people in our ranks who want to work hard, and they are motivated because they believe that the ultimate answer to what a game should be is not "profitable", but rather "complete".

There's really no need to flame though; I have a feeling that The Shogun and the other developers will give due attention to our various requests. Let's just hope that the "The 6th Reich" (a.k.a. EA) doesn't handcuff them from doing what's best for the game either through policy or an indifference to the needs of their customers.

[Magyar Khan]

at the end we will have our ownn competition and campaigns... i hope my programm will stimulate u all.

[solypsist]

well it looks like what we all really care about is an editor.
doesnt get more clear than that.

[Erado San]

Sigh....

Read the Shoguns two posts. Whether you like it or not, they don't have the time and/or resources to do things the way we want. They are aware of what we want. And they would do it, if they could.

So you think things are easy? Well, taht just shows your level of knowledge of creating software. Cause they are not. An editor would take a full project team to create, keeping all sorts of comaptibility and stability issues in mind. Then there's the QA and the update control to keep in mind, so part of that project would create more work after the release.

The MP Campaign, Lan or Online? Same thing. or, actually, even worse. Look at the problems that arise in even a simple campaign as we are mucking up in that thread.

Remember the time we were foaming about that tiles game? Turned out that guy from CA had been doing that in his spare time. Boy, is he going to be motivated to do anything special for this community.

Oh, I'm with you on one thing: I WANT, I WANT, I WANT.....

But I am with them when they say they're working their butts off. Realize that, and appreciate that. Post #1.024 about the fact we want an editor won't make them work harder on it. Post#1.024 attacking them about it is not going to help period!

What actually worries me the most is the fact that apparently they visit the forums less because of these useless, useless, GOD DAMN USELESS discussions.

My last post here. Feel free to continue behaving like spoilt brats.

(insert very, very mean smiley here)

[S.O.L]

Edrao i must disagree strongly have been involed in the modding commuinty for oh a decade or so. i and many others have come to dispise game companies , yes "despise"

Take RELIC with their game homeworld have been involved for some time now modding that ,Erado i have heard it all before many times over from different games developers.

Relic rufused to realse a GDT or a mod pack creator or help anbody trying to get into archive files to create a mod. they did as the power at be here are doing ,they are trying to discourage people from the idea dont have resourses or time or are worried about piracy bull mate it is all bull .

what is behind this is add on packs and sequels if we can mod it then they think damn we cant sell ten add on packs to fleece or customers and that is a fact like it or not mate .

But now relic are having to eat their own words and go crawling to the mod community with over 20 or so current mods in process . only last week did the admit on the officail web site and give links to mods that have been gonig for over a year

By the way Erado a GDT or mod pack creator is a doddle to create when you access to archive files, getting into archive is the bit that modders spend way to much time on.

Have a look at my message boards (link in my sig the gaming union) mate and see what a bit of stuff the developers let's do it ourself attitude does.

what bewilders me is why you waste your time waiting for they developers to help you, they wont. this is just the general attitude of developers mate, a fact again only one company and one game has a different approach and that is Half Life , shogun joins the list like relic of developers who see things a different way from gamers.

These discussion's are far from useless what is useless is towing their line.


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The Gaming Union (http://cgi.thegamingunion.co.uk/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi)

[This message has been edited by S.O.L (edited 11-24-2000).]

[Methabaron]

Erado,

S.O.L. is right on the money... MOD wars are old and bloody. And it is going to take much more than a couple of posts like this to achieve something serious.

Computer games is a business like any other and all we are trying with posts like this is to keep the lead and initiative of the market where it belongs: the costumer. It is our feedback that make developers work hard among other things. It is indeed funny to see how after a couple of well directed posts "The Shogun" has posted in return 3-4 times in less than a week asking for feedback; a feedback that he should have by now if he had really checked the forums since the beginning. We must have done some good.

I can not believe he admitted "not having time enough" to visit forums... well, I also have a very busy job and have time to visit them and find out that the rank control system is flawed among other things... and it is NOT my job for crying out loud !!!. He should have realized that and acted accordingly (releasing a Clan League based on a flawed system is not very serious you see) much before any of us since it is his job...

Erado, we all know you are a good fan and work hard but beware of the "Stockholm Syndrome"...

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-25-2000).]