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View Full Version : Definitely my final Statement.



Erado San
11-11-2002, 23:26
These are the final statements I make on the issue. They are not .Org staff statements, they are my own. I have looked at the issues from every possible angle. These are the conclusions I draw based on that. Feel free to agree or disagree.

Replies to these statements in this thread are subject to special rules. No post will be deleted, whatever the content. But your posts have to be in line with normal rules of conduct. Flaming will not be acceptable, and will be edited out of your post. Roleplaying, as excercised by some people in the past, is not recommended. You have something to say, so don't hide behind an alter ego.

The goal of these statements is to get the matter over with and make my position on it clear. I have no intent on more mudslinging. We have seen enough of that.

First I will comment on the controversy of the abuse of passwords, after that I will clarify the position of the Org, and our actions after that.


-----------------------------------------

Statement on the abuse of passwords

As you all know our former admin, Terazawa, has been accused of abusing his possibility as admin of the org to retrieve passwords, and with these access private forums of clans and trading the passwords with others. The accusations were brought to the attention of the Org staff 3 or 4 weeks before they were posted here. The Org staff decided not to take any action. The reasons for this decision is not the subject of this statement, I refer you to the other statement I make in this forum. The accusations were posted here and defended by Tinky, Magyar Khan and RageMonsta.

Many have spoken on his defense, mainly based on his reputation with everything he has done for the Total War community. Others have condemned him, in the opinion that infiltrating private forums and especially abusing his powers as admin of the Org is unacceptable.

The evidence provided is a tense matter. It has been based on chat logs and a screenshot he allegedly made while visiting the Wolves’ forum. The authenticity of this evidence is always debatable, since it can all be tampered with. We have seen examples of that in the past . I have been looking into the evidence for more than a week now, and I do have some unanswered questions about some of the evidence.

However, for much the same reason, there is no conclusive evidence against those that started the accusations. I have found no proof whatsoever that they manipulated the evidence to falsely attack Terazawa.

At this point I reached a stalemate, not able to prove either guilt nor innocence. Someone is not guilty until proven guilty, and as such there remained too many questions to confirm Terazawa’s guilt. Plus, in the statements made by the accusers there were many contradicting points, which made their case appear questionable.

Then I was approached by KenchiGambatte (name listed here by his own request). He informed me that Terazawa had confessed to the accusations to a number of his close friends, some of them trusted members of the Clan Kenchikuka. On my request, other members of the clan confirmed this. Neither could provide me with Terazawa’s confession, so it remains vague what he actually confessed. Yet, there is no reason for doubt that this confession is genuine.

Because of this, I conclude that Terazawa did indeed enter private forums without permission. But it remains unproven to me that he did indeed use the passwords on the Org to get into private forums. Maybe he confessed to this, but again, I have not seen his actual confession. Terazawa is the only person that can shed light on this, but sadly he has not returned to this forum.

Why was this not posted before?

I have taken my time to look into most of the evidence and think this matter through from all sides. And after all the confession Tera made to his friend was the thing that convinced me of at least part of the truth. The members of Clan Kenchikuka could have posted this before, but they were faced with a dilemma. Terazawa had stated that he would post a confession to the public himself, and they didn’t want to take the opportunity from him to do so. They stood behind their member, and deserve nothing but respect for that, as they also deserve respect for ending the dilemma and informing me.

To me and to all his friends this has come as a disappointment. Until his departure Terazawa has always denied the accusations. This has led to much strife that could have been avoided.

It is easy to pass judgement and condemn someone who admits to the accusations. Yet, while I am disappointed in Terazawa’s actions, I will speak on his behalf also. While he has made mistakes, I also bring to mind all the effort he has made for the benefit of this community over the past years. Every community needs people that carry it, that spend time to improve matters and make it better for all the members of the community. Because of this, personally I am ready to forgive all of this and welcome him back as a member of this community. And I speak on behalf of the entire Org staff when I say that we would welcome him back as member of the staff of the Org as well. Maybe not in a position where he could access the passwords anymore, for obvious reason.

Tera, we all make mistakes. The biggest mistake however is to run away from them and not learn from them. I would like to hear your reply to this more than anything.

Tinky, you have been involved in the password trades with Tera. You brought this to the attention of everybody here to warn everybody. While I applaud this, as much as Tera is guilty of the accusations, you have also been involved in password trading. To many this may seem part of the Clan system, but I reject it for the same ethics as I reject Tera’s activities. I ask of you to also accept that you have made mistakes there and learn from them.

Magyar and Monsta, you have played a role in this as well. I disagree with the way you have brought it to these forums. I know you brought this to the attention of the admins before it was posted in the forums, but on the whole you did not present a clear case that was ready for the forums. You could have handled it differently which would have helped avoid the turmoil that started afterwards.

The way the Org staff responded is dealt with below.

I call upon everybody to leave this matter behind us now. State your opinion if you feel you want to, but do so with respect to all other patrons of this community and in accordance with the policies of the Org.

I would like to thank a number of people who helped me in finding the information I needed (in random order):

RageMonsta
Barocca
Magyar Khan
TosaInu
AggonyKasuga
Tinky
KenchiGambatte, Rath and the entire Clan Kenchikuka (your honour in this is beyond doubt)

Have fun

Erado San





-----------------------------------------
Statement on the actions of the Org Staff
-----------------------------------------

There has been much talk about our actions related to the accusations against Tera. There were reasons for our actions. I will try and explain them here.

A big issue has been made by some people about the warning the Org has received about the accusations, and in particular about the fact that we have done nothing with that warning.

Yes, we did receive a warning, from Ragemonsta, a few weeks prior to the moment the accusations were posted here. But in that warning Monsta asks us NOT to take action, and repeated that twice in the mail exchange that followed. We did respond, by the way, and Tosa has been in a mail exchange with Monsta about it. In that mail exchange, there was talk of a screenshot that Tera had in his possession on the 24th of September. That screenshot was later used as the main proof. But on the screenshot there was a post dated on the 29th of September. That alone was enough reason not to accept the accusations against Tera, and is something that still has no solid explanation at all.

No, we don’t take action against wild accusations. In the statements made there were too many discrepancies, where one actually contradicted the other, that there was no solid ground to accept that the accusations were true at all. Only because of the confession Tera made against some of his mates in his clan I believe he has done it. If I didn’t have that confession, the way the accusers stated their accusations makes it all sound extremely thin. We have all the statements, and collected about 60 pages of inconsistencies I believe.

Accusations are not allowed on the Org. When Dan founded the Org he adopted a simple philosophy: The Org is a no fire zone. Visit the internet, look at some forums and you can see why this policy exists. It is stated in the policies you all agree to when you register. In the past there have been situations like this, and the Org always adopted this policy. We have no reason to change this policy at all. The Org is not the place for this. After all, this was something the clans should take care of in the first place. It is Your Private Forums, not ours. You should protect them better.

The main interest in this was to us, is the fact that one of our admins was accused of using Org passwords of patrons. As yet this still is not proven to me. There was only suspicious proof, the statements made by the accusers were highly contradicting, so we had no doubt about what actions to take. The policy was and is a good one.

So, as a result of all this, we decided to stop the accusations according to that policy. When the accusers continued, and increased the abusive language and inflammatory posts, we had no alternative but to ban them. These were temporary bans in all but one case.

I see only one mistake we have made. From the beginning we should have made it absolutely clear that this was not going to be accepted. I have posted a number of times that this did not belong here on the Org, but a more solid statement from us should have been made.
Having said all this, I see no reason now to change our policies in any way. They are there to protect innocent people against wild accusations. Sometimes they may also protect people who are guilty, but that is a result of the fact that nobody is guilty until Proven guilty.

Forums are a means for patrons to discuss the subject the forum was created for. But every community has social rules. For the forum, they are laid down in the forum guidelines. If you don’t behave within these guidelines, you run the risk that moderators act against that, by deleting or editing your posts, or outright banning you. Of course you won’t agree, and some others may not agree either. But that’s the bottom line. We, admins and moderators uphold those policies to preserve the nature of the forums. If you don’t agree with that, either you conform to the policy or leave the community. If you don’t accept the guidelines of our forums then you don’t belong here.

The Total War community is fragile. At times the way some people think they can treat another is worrying. We're friends here, with a passion for the game in all its aspects. The policy is there to preserve that community.

That’s it. Back to gaming as far as I am concerned.

Have fun.

RageMonsta
11-12-2002, 04:08
Not wishing to make this another arguement Monsta will do his usual cut and paste of some of your words (in an effort to make it seem like a conversation) for the sake of clarity and understanding for the masses.. who may be unaware of some of the 'facts' surrounding this issue.

So please those who actually reply for the sake of our sanity do not begin with the sentence 'I do not know anything about this but'...like last time it is nice for you to support whoever you wish but your statements often cloud the topic and cause the debate/talk to turn into little more than a 'brawl'.

The accusations were posted here and defended by Tinky, Magyar Khan and RageMonsta.

Please let it be known that Rage and The Wolves were the targets of these 'attacks' therefore our backing and evidence collecting of which your whole statement has been made from (mainly)is not without reason and was just not personel towards Tera.

Many have spoken on his defense, mainly based on his reputation with everything he has done for the Total War community.

Please also include RageMonsta and MagyarKhan to this list..as will be outlined later in this thread.

However, for much the same reason, there is no conclusive evidence against those that started the accusations. I have found no proof whatsoever that they manipulated the evidence to falsely attack Terazawa.

Is it not true however that you were given proof that e-mails to Tinky from Tera we infact very real therefore is it not only 'fair' that you produce in this written work the whole picture rather than just saying 'they did not fake', please can you say you know for a fact his involvement to be true. Please also try and refrain from the passing of 'guilt' element in you words here...the question of 'set up' was only ever a reaction of the 'defenders' which to fair is a natural human action when faced with an assault on their party.

I have been looking into the evidence for more than a week now, and I do have some unanswered questions about some of the evidence.

Plus, in the statements made by the accusers there were many contradicting points, which made their case appear questionable.

And they are? Please Erado offering a statement only to witheld your basis of the statement only leads to further doubt in minds already confused and is often a tactic when trying to maintain an element of mystery in a clear cut case.

However, for much the same reason, there is no conclusive evidence against those that started the accusations.

Again as a neutral you are seeking the answers.. you seem to be looking to for the guilt of the 'prosecution'...very poor way to find the truth is to have a pre arranged idea of the facts.

those that started the accusations.

Tinky started the accusation...Magyar and Monsta did as you did and found evidence (actually no you were given the evidence)..but as the intended 'victims' of this Tera action we (once finding all the evidence) took the stand that any other would...an attack in defence of one's self.

At this point I reached a stalemate, not able to prove either guilt nor innocence. Someone is not guilty until proven guilty, and as such there remained too many questions to confirm Terazawa’s guilt. Plus, in the statements made by the accusers there were many contradicting points, which made their case appear questionable.

Certain information was being held until we could finally get the facts together...I believe you touch on this subject next...(hard to believe that we did not throw all our 'cards' in during the Org debate but we did try and find the truth hence the wait).

Then I was approached by KenchiGambatte (name listed here by his own request). He informed me that Terazawa had confessed to the accusations to a number of his close friends, some of them trusted members of the Clan Kenchikuka. On my request, other members of the clan confirmed this.

Other members of the clan who continued to defend Tera even though they had been told by him of his guilt...it would be interesting to know when they were told as some of these members hold positions at the Org and were able to stand by the diabolical actions taken when we were silenced for presenting the apparent truth...not to mention the innocent victims of this 'purge' who spoke out against the banning rule..being loyal to your friends is admirable but allowing the innocent to burn and know the truth is..how can Monsta put this...disgusting.

Neither could provide me with Terazawa’s confession, so it remains vague what he actually confessed.Yet, there is no reason for doubt that this confession is genuine.

Do you need blood on the knife? Here we see an example of a clan member who could no longer hold back...he saw the flames and could not bear the smell of burning flesh..he could be considered a 'turncoat' to some of his clan but he was the bravest person to come out of this whole affair.

Because of this, I conclude that Terazawa did indeed enter private forums without permission. But it remains unproven to me that he did indeed use the passwords on the Org to get into private forums.

At last..oh...hmmm...well Erado this statement is very difficult to ignore...you have been given the evidence of -how-when-where- and who saw it..please if you make this statement about it not being via the Org explain to Monsta how he did it...we have had claims of guess work and of (yours) government influence over the net etc etc..and still yet we are waiting for somebody to repeat this masterful stroke of Tera...oh and a fact to the unaware.it just so happens that Magyar shared the same pass here at the Org as he did in his private clan forum....finger prints on the blooded knife?

Maybe he confessed to this, but again, I have not seen his actual confession. Terazawa is the only person that can shed light on this, but sadly he has not returned to this forum.

[]He has already told his clan..do they lie for some reason?[/b]

And after all the confession Tera made to his friend was the thing that convinced me of at least part of the truth.

Minor contradiction of what you wrote before Erado.. excuse me for being over critical.

The members of Clan Kenchikuka could have posted this before, but they were faced with a dilemma.

Understood as the majority are a fine set of lads.

Terazawa had stated that he would post a confession to the public himself, and they didn’t want to take the opportunity from him to do so. They stood behind their member, and deserve nothing but respect for that, as they also deserve respect for ending the dilemma and informing me.

Understood but...Tera made his Bart Simpson/Shaggy post ('it wasnt me&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif the day after Tink made his post...the defence continued from certain parties and of these certain parties there was people/person of trust and authority from the Org involved..in other words this person(s) should have taken the lead and made it stop for the sake of the Org and the sake of the KKK..hence why there was an outrage at the actions of the Org because it became clear (or seemd to) that clan influence helped decide certain fates (bans)...considering some of the 'defence' abused people in a personel manner and non of these people got removed..but anyway..continue Ed..

They stood behind their member, and deserve nothing but respect for that

Agreed apart from the fact that a person picked to be loyal to his clan before his duties to the Org therefore our claims of predjudice are clearly justified...

as they also deserve respect for ending the dilemma and informing me.

not very clear this point...no offence to KKK as Monsta has took steps to heal some wounds as members of their clan have also.....but who was it who presented this evidence...like Monsta said before some things were held back...was it off their own back they told you or were they 'prompted' by the confession of one particualr member..not wishing to go further into this but please cement your statements with facts Erado.

To me and to all his friends this has come as a disappointment. Until his departure Terazawa has always denied the accusations. This has led to much strife that could have been avoided.

Hence why Monsta is astounded by the fact that certain Org staff did not come forward sooner when it was clear Tera wanted to continue his Simpson/Shaggy quote 'it wuzzant me...mr lover lover' (last bit added to show it was shaggy and not Bart this time).

It is easy to pass judgement and condemn someone who admits to the accusations.

You found it hard mind..and isnt that just stating the what a blind one legged chimp could tell us...for gods sake man he confessed (well in private at least).

Tera, we all make mistakes. The biggest mistake however is to run away from them and not learn from them. I would like to hear your reply to this more than anything.

All the Tera stuff is true.he did his bit and he did it well..some strange evil took hold of him and made him go insane for a short time and do silly stuff (circle..who?).
He was mailed by Monsta and offered help...once as soon as Monsta knew the post was going live (about 5 minutes before it did) and after...to be honest Monsta gloated that his old enemy was 'snared' and Monsta had managed to stay a step ahead (or seemed to) in our little skirmish..at this point there was no idea of what would happen...Monsta offered Tera and escape rout and also spoke to Magyar about what we could ask for......we asked him for a sorry and for us to be allowed to put 'bars' on his forum icon for a short while...oh and to make Tinkys site...site of the week (as we knew this would voodoo tinky)..we were still playing 'its a game and a joke' monsta tried to calm the forum with hunour but the 'outsiders' i mentioned at the start of this thread went nuits and started attacking each other... sadly he refused any help (monsta was willing to say he made it all up if Tera would promise to stop...and if the thread is about you can read this but it was sadly drowned by the screams of the 'i know more about computers than you crowd&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif...and infact added more posts of denial...neither Magyar nor Monsta wanted to see Tera leave...after all we have also known him for years and not always as 'enemies'. Magyar and Monsta aimed to defend our clans and others who used the boards..sadly there was a price..but let Monsta say..it is never too late and Monsta will have Krast brew some soup for Tera if/when he decides to come home.

Tinky, you

tinky is evil and we know it..but isnt it better to see a scorpion and know not to stand on it than have a worm that is deadly but hides its venom till it stings you?

Magyar and Monsta, you have played a role in this as well. I disagree with the way you have brought it to these forums.

We did not bring anything..it was neither Monsta nor Magyar who made the post...we did however expect the 'fans' site to defend if not support the fans and also ..was it not a member of the Org who was being pointed out? and has it not been established (to a great degree) that it was the Org that was used to perpetrate the 'crime'.

You could have handled it differently which would have helped avoid the turmoil that started afterwards

we tried but ultimately we had no power over the release of the screne shot..although Monsta tried over and over to get it before it went live..and after Tera ignored my offer of help and continued to do the Bart/Shaggy bit it was all tits up...

Yes, we did receive a warning, from Ragemonsta, a few weeks prior to the moment the accusations were posted here. But in that warning Monsta asks us NOT to take action, and repeated that twice in the mail exchange that followed.

Yep..but also if not mistaken Tosa was warned to prepare...Monsta thinks his words were 'its gonna explode'...now dont get me wrong..but if somebody throws something to you and says..'its gonna explode' or something like that....do you say 'hmmm let me wait and see if it ticks first'..you at least remove the item from you grasp and prepare action incase it does go BOOOOM. Plus monsta wanted to be sure and didnt even at this early stage want Tera hung.

In that mail exchange, there was talk of a screenshot that Tera had in his possession on the 24th of September. That screenshot was later used as the main proof. But on the screenshot there was a post dated on the 29th of September. That alone was enough reason not to accept the accusations against Tera, and is something that still has no solid explanation at all.

So while seeking to find out that the prosecution was perpetrating a fraud you concluded this as part evidence...and it held you back a little...ok let Monsta cure your thoughts...the reason that the scene shot had not been taken until after monsta mentioned it to Tosa is because monsta had told tink he was full of shit and thought the claims were false (as we all know Tink was a scorpion)...Tink then said he would get Tera to make a scene shot...Monsta mentioned to Tosa that no solid evicence (i.e smoking gun) was yet to be seen and to wait as the person who had informed Monsta of the crime (monsta thought it best not to mention too many names)said they were in the process of getting this...and he did...and Erado you have visited Tinks mail box and know Tera sent it...his ego could not bare to be doubted...sad really...he hung himself...there you go an answer to your question about the dates..Sherlock would have been proud of you though..

Only because of the confession Tera made against some of his mates in his clan I believe he has done it.

you mean you doubted Kas...didnt he even talk to you on the phone?...btw you have not mentioned the fact Tera also offered the 'goods' to the Aggony clan leader have you.

If I didn’t have that confession, the way the accusers stated their accusations makes it all sound extremely thin. We have all the statements, and collected about 60 pages of inconsistencies I believe.

Sadly again you leave open questions..you are yet to show me why they are not real.fair enough chat logs are doubtful and scene shots can be made (although this would take knowledge of the actual post inside the forum...you were thinking magy made em?...oh lol)....but when his clan m8s tell you and you even have another clan leader of a nature that is beyond a doubt honest give evidence.you still have trouble seeing the wood for the trees?....Please Erado your slipping into fanatical denial...

The policy was and is a good one.

Banning anybody who said he was guilty...and then banning everybody who said that was wrong?...maybe by the rules but after your continued claim that the case against Tera was faulty can you not see how it seemed to 'stink' to us that first Magy gets booted for speakin out then the trend continues without one 'victim' being pro Tera or pro Ban even though they also broke the rules...even a member of the admin made personel ramarks...come now Erado the whole debate about this issue is the Animal Farm element...'some animals are equal but some are more equal than others'..AND AGAIN it was not us who were on 'trial' but for some reason we were punished while the guilty party was not even spoken of in an ill manner....Erado please i am not sure who you are aiming to insult here but your hurting my intelligence with such statements.

and increased the abusive language and inflammatory posts

thats a lie...even tank behaved...the foul language actually came from a defender on more than one post...Erado we are not stupid ..we know the rules and we are hardly newbies with a point to make and shout foul words at you...(btw a copy of this will be saved because monsta also nows facts are often removed here..no offence).

These were temporary bans in all but one case.

You actually only banned 1 person who metioning Tera Gate and that was Magyar..the machine gun banning was mainly to those who complained about the bans...and they were not flammers they are solid members of this community...the people who keep the place open...the FANS..your own people...was it Tink who got the life ban?...well theres a reward for his honesty..


that this did not belong here on the Org,

issues concerning the Org are not to be spoken of in the Org?...fans of the game are not to speak about issues concerning the game/fans at the fan site?...no fire...unless barrels aimed at 'approved targets'?

They are there to protect innocent people against wild accusations. Sometimes they may also protect people who are guilty, but that is a result of the fact that nobody is guilty until Proven guilty.{/i}

As they have been...for weeks now..so reinstate tink..kick him if he does the something bad..but at least show you are neutral in this.

[i]Forums are a means for patrons to discuss the subject the forum was created for.

please outline what the clans forum is for then.as clan issues are not to be spoken of...although i understand about the rules but the name of the forum conflicts with some of the deletions and removals.

Of course you won’t agree, and some others may not agree either. But that’s the bottom line.

Please therefore remove the title 'fan' site as it is clealy not a democratic system...and all members should be told that they are not infact members...they are just people who supply most of the content and pay the bills...only to be told their opinion is worthless...

We, admins and moderators uphold those policies to preserve the nature of the forums. If you don’t agree with that, either you conform to the policy or leave the community. If you don’t accept the guidelines of our forums then you don’t belong here.

seems fair...it is hard for me not to spring into one of my historical essays about how other events such as this have happened in Europe....but out of respect for YOUR* site monsta will remain held back.

==========================

Thank you Erado..you managed to miss some issues but hopefully they have been cleared up for you....Monsta hopes the Org (note how I have dropped the bORG thing out of respect for YOUR* site) the best of luck...

At times Monsta was close to anger here but tried to remain well mannered and so did his author...but non of my comments were intended as a personel attack on anybody ..just a version of events from my side of the fence....happy gaming for the future...make sure you carry bug repelant mind

*YOUR- the chosen few who hold the title admin.



































http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

RageMonsta
11-12-2002, 04:14
havent a clue how i managed to get icons and a large gap....anyway excuse this oversight on my part. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (that one i meant)

Krasturak
11-12-2002, 06:46
Gah RageMonsta Gah

Erado San
11-12-2002, 10:54
My reply to Monsta's reply will be made within an hour. I need some time for that. PLease refrain from posting until I have done so, otherwise this thread becomes confusing, and that could cause misunderstandings again, which I would like to avoid.

Thank you.

Kocmoc
11-12-2002, 13:37
hi guys,

after a long time of thinking, ..yes i can do this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

i come to the point, that it would be the best if we could stop it now

monsta i respect u and ur opinion same for u ed, but i dont see and positive point in continue this.
plz let us concentrate to our MP problems this is sometinhg we should stick together.

i think some guys got what they wanted with the Post of erado and he has my full respect for this.
So let it be end here.

i never realy cared about tera, but i know him as a funny ncie guy, so it would be nice if he/ could come back and be again a part of our community.

this "tera-gate" destroyed much and caused many trouble, and now i see that the community get splitt, hey we are just "10%" we should realy hold together

in some points i dont agree in some i do, but i wont speak again about this all, i wont look back i want to look forward.

something i miss, is a step in the right direction from guys like tosa, it would be help us all if u could draw down some of ur emotions and step forward too.

so plz again, stop it now

ur juniorkoc

Erado San
11-12-2002, 14:36
I totally agree with you Koc.

Monsta, I will not go into many of the questions you ask. I have seen too much 'evidence' supporting both guilt and innocense. None of them stick, both yours and mine. If I were to post what I have found we'd be arguing forever about it.

I didn't expect you to like the statement about the Org's actions and policies. Most of the points you try to make are missing the point I am making. None of the bans was made for the reasons as you describe them. None of our actions were aimed at stifling opinions. They were made in response to the way opinions have been presented.

Have fun.

RageMonsta
11-12-2002, 15:45
You poit was understood Erado...
Monstas efforts were to give example of why those banned etc were 'acting' in manner in response to the actions of the Org...just so we could balance the view..

Monsta sat reviewing some essays written by boring historians today and was completely clouded lol...nearly wrote 'but Erado' several times....insanity as a companion is often fun but it also causes Monsta trouble during daylight hours

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

MagyarKhans Cham
11-12-2002, 18:57
"well Monsta, Erado tried to give the best he got. its a big step forward although he promised to bring out a concept version first. U an me share the same ideas, yours are always better written so today I waited for you to reply first http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but i have seen enuf from Erado struggling with this all. Let him focus on improving his releationship to teh developers, we need a next patch dont we?

Lets both follow Kocmoc a bit on his quest of becoming the orgs most understanding member here, let me watch our flanks and u watch our back than i think we are well protected."

...hastly written by our clans historian while our Khan was toiletting...

RageMonsta
11-12-2002, 19:29
junior member?.I'll have you know my 'member' is far from junior...Elmo on the other hand is another matter...or so Monsta has heard anyway... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

baz
11-12-2002, 22:40
This is not a clan statement it is simply the truth, Keith put us in a very awkward situation, please bare with me as i cannot remember exact dates here.

At the beginning of the accusations, we knew as much about this situation as the regular patron (from the posts here only) if you wanted this to be dealt with by kenchi then why we were not contacted before is behond me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
We had several Clan meetings about this topic and eventually we found that it was true that Keith had been entering into the wolves private forum (how i do not know exactly).

We as a Clan could not condone this and decided he had a choice to either confess to the public or leave the clan. however, before we could issue this choice to Keith decided off of his own back to leave the community as a whole (from his post at the org). from this point onwards we have virtually no contact with him as he doesn't not seem to answer his mails any longer. We came to a decision that it was not our place to execute keith, and we felt that if anyone was to confess then he should do it himself, Dave, however, clearly did not feel this way and went on his own to inform erado of these events, although dave acted on his own feelings and defied the Clan he is not the one who has done wrong here and we felt therefore we cannot punish him, only stand by his words, as the truth.

hopefully, this answers a lot of questions and im sure that you can fully understand our actions in this, even if you dont agree with them.

Monsta, i have spoke to you personally and i would appreciate you editing the references to Kenchikuka as these could easily be taken the wrong way.

hopefully we can all carry on now and stop all this ****

Tachikaze
11-12-2002, 23:32
If people were banned for their opinions, Hosakawa Tito would have banned me a long time ago. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

MagyarKhans Cham
11-13-2002, 01:31
thx Baz its teh truth and should be your clans statement, its appreciated at teh Khans ger and if u go there u will be presented a nice young steppehorse...

Krasturak
11-13-2002, 04:06
Quote[/b] (RageMonsta @ Nov. 12 2002,08:45)]insanity as a companion is often fun but it also causes Monsta trouble during daylight hours
Is good reason to use coffin when the big yellow face is in the sky.

Paolai
11-13-2002, 11:22
then why when i posted that on the Kenchis forum 23/10/2002:

quoted: http://terazawa.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....54;st=0 (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=54;st=0)

"Come on Tera Say a "sorry" and come back to play with us Everybody made some mistakes....i did a lot and I will do surely ....use the magic word: "sorry" "
-----------------------------------------------
you (Baz) answered in that way:
may i remind people that keith may not be guilty, please refrain from posting about his guilt here, there are more suitable threads speculating his involvement available at the animal farm thanks - barry

EDIT: did somebody say something?
--------------------------------------------

And you also deleted another my post when i tried to explain to you the different between guilty and mistake


Sorry Baz...but I really think that you did a stupid thing.

My Khan is happy for ur words....me not. Its easy to say what u have said only now. You made a mistake maybe bigger than Tera

Satake
11-13-2002, 12:07
And so the story continues paolai...

Obviously this "tera gate" has brought the worst up in all of us.

Isn't it about time we turn our attention to more useful things. It's a game fellas not life Who cares who said what when.

I could say to you paolai that guilt never was proven regarding him using his position at the org to retrieve passwords. If you object to him hacking forums... well that has been part of the game ever since the beginning. May i remind you that e.g. your khan has tried to infiltrate other clans aswell, and cheated his way to the nr 1 position in the ranks. Lots of players have done things that may have been dubious. But not one has done as much for the community as tera has in his days.

I am drifting again. point is, tera's guilt is something we'll never be able to establish unless he comes out telling just exactly what he did or did not do. He didn't tell a thing about how he got the password. Nor did he confess straight away to us. I don't condemn him for what he did as others have done so or have at least tried hard to do the same and they are still there. I respect his decision to step down though.

But enough be enough. We can keep going round in circles but it won't do good to anyone.

A hug to all that need one. Passe.

Paolai
11-13-2002, 12:40
hi Satake,

I really still talking about mistakes, and I am talking only about my personal opinions. For me Tera made a mistake, for me Baz made a mistake...nothing more nothing else...try to say "sorry" (its really not difficult, but maybe only the braves can do it)

MagyarKhans Cham
11-13-2002, 13:15
Sadake,

"May i remind you that e.g. your khan has tried to infiltrate other clans aswell, and cheated his way to the nr 1 position in the ranks."

what the hell is this...? u just declared another war

A) what clan did our khan infiltrate?
B) cheating was done with apporoval of teh biggest vets at that time, with the best reason available and the price was not accepted by him and returned to CA.

so leaves point A.... what clan did he infiltrate?

Please your answer on this....

MagyarKhans Cham
11-13-2002, 13:18
Just read the forum rules.......

"Posts containing any generally objectionable material: knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. Posting of copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you or by The Guild, is discouraged. The Guild expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs or insults adressed to an individual or a group is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times."

Erado San
11-13-2002, 14:17
Paolai:

At the moment these developments took place there was a hell of a lot of confudion all over the community. Kenchi were in a dilemma, and made decisions that are too easy to judge on hindsight. If you feel they made a mistake towards you, so be it. It happened, the matter is explained and it's time to stop blaming people for what they may have done under the circumstances.

Satake:

Your accusations serve no purpose whatsoever, and I consider them totally inappropriate in this context. Lay off the mudslinging immediately, and edit your post.

Magy:

I understand your reaction but ask of you to restrain yourself. Before you know it we have a new mess on our hands nobody wants.

Thank you.

Paolai
11-13-2002, 14:41
yes Ed, but now the dilemma is close....is it so difficult to say "sorry"? Or they still no consider that they have made mistakes?

youssof_Toda
11-13-2002, 15:19
*wants to speak*

*sees bottle of beer*

*decides to shut up and takes beer*

*hands beer to satake*

*hands beer to magy*

Better to have a nice beer than meaningless discussions or not?

MagyarKhans Cham
11-13-2002, 16:15
Hi youssof

will Sadake think Erlik Khan was our Khan? Or that u were sent by our Khan?

Well, lets forgive him. He had a hardtime and lets consider this as some bottle upped frustration coming out.

Brand wasnt it?

youssof_Toda
11-13-2002, 17:02
It is Brand and if satake would actually care about erlik he should go to the animal farm where the little story is covered. If I'm not mistaking this was about 'teragate'.

MagyarKhans Cham
11-13-2002, 17:25
well according our historians u did lie in that game on Magyarorsag with your strong no-dachi based army, didnt u? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

youssof_Toda
11-13-2002, 17:46
That was not the only time I fooled you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

MagyarKhans Cham
11-13-2002, 18:26
Well according to our records our Khan recognised your style of play very fast. Let me check the records to see where your name is mentioned as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

(just guiding this topic into a better atmosphere)

Satake
11-14-2002, 11:00
First off my name is not Sadake thank you. Feel free to call me that but this is the first and only time i will respond to that name.

I am not withdrawing any of my comments or statements.. I was trying to set a point that tera was not the only one who has done dubious things. out of context erado? I don't agree when i read it. Magyar you see so keen to remember then let me refresh ur mind. When you asked me into wolves (yes i was a wolf long ago for about 2 weeks) you told me you had several "projects" going regarding infiltration. You even asked me to keep my second name (Noriyori) to stay inside Attending's clan.

See? No one's sheet is clean. That's the entire point. But like i said, no one has done as much for the community as tera has.

Flame me, ban me, edit me.. blah blah i said what i felt necessary to say. And you asked me to do so magy, twice.

SaTake

Erado San
11-14-2002, 12:52
Sigh...

Thanks for showing so clearly why discussions like this are not welcome on the Org.

Sort that business out among yourselves and don't bother the community with it.

Time to end this thread, I very much need that Brand beer now... Better make it a big one...

youssof_Toda
11-14-2002, 14:51
I only have big ones erado http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

*hands the beer to erado*

MagyarKhans Cham
11-14-2002, 16:51
my god saDake

now u stepped out of line.... this emans complete full scale war.

u lying b.....

now u made me me mad

its time to start rumouring isnt, just after u "lost" Teragate.


----------------------------------------------
May i "rumour" that KenchiSatake was involved while helping Tera. We have proof of that, altho never showed it, yet.

I heard Satake that u cheated, and calling others a cheat is a common habbit of some Kenchimembers.

U tried to infiltrate the wolfclan, but we got u just u passed the guards
-------------------------------------------

ur sick man and as it shows ur allowed to spit all this nonsense in here cuz u cant get over your losses and frustrations.

well i wonder why the org let u post this, but i will stay neutral with my ideas about it in here.


To the admins. Satake stepped beyond another line. If he aint corrected in this than he will pull teh org even deeper than kenchi ever did before.

Erado San
11-14-2002, 17:14
In the opening of my statements I made it clear that there are special rules concerning this thread, allowing more room for people to post.

But I agree with you. Satake is way out of line. As you know I resigned as admin from this forum and have no moderating options here, otherwise I would edit the parts out that are offending the no fire zone policy.

I know this thread will be closed soon and deleted 24 hours after that. The sensible people have had their say and understood the nature of this thread. I thank them for that. But it seems like you can't win them all.

By the way, you're out of line too, but I can see why. Keep it cool, Magy, it's not worth it.

Pass me another Brand, Youssof. I am way too sober for this...

MagyarKhans Cham
11-14-2002, 17:29
well ok, i opened a topic in teh clansection. to help Satake find evidence. I think its better to speak this out than to close the thread since the rumour have seen daylight and only facts can stop this.

our GWIS has set trail to see if TenkiNoriYori was in a clan with Attending anyway, and if he was a wolf.

So far it seems Satake was a wolf during teh early days of the Grey Wolves, thats a long time ago, it was during the SHS. now i personally think that when NoriYori was alive it was way after he was a lonely wolf.... so.

it means that when Kenchi declined rapidly and he was granted a place amongst teh wolves with Darthguru, he had a name in Tenki? thats odd.

Perhaps it raises also questions about the campaigns we had, with kenchi and Tenki present... was he a member of Kenchi and Tenki at that time? Was he NoriYori?

A lot of questions, a new job for our GWIS.

Jemasze Toda
11-14-2002, 17:55
...and poor Fool still wonders when you guys will realize how all this will turn out to become a constructive input into our tiny community:

Wolfs should declare war to Kenchi or vice versa and concealing the more "personal" feelings behind the roleplaying character we would have a tremendous story to tell, rumours to make, accusations and counter-accusations, spying and counter-spying and - most important of all - many intersting battles with replays taken and published here at the ORG or elsewhere Maybe some other clans decide to leave their neutral status and ally themselfs with one of the two parties and the community will get a wonderful pretty war with many battles ( sunday was declared the clanwar-day, wasn't it?)....
Does anybody understand that a scenario like this would actually channel all the masses of human ( or animal? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)energy desperately seeking for a way to show itself into a constructive manner which would actually benefit our community instead of weakening it??
As things are, here and in "real" life, we will never be able to avoid rivalry, personal distastes, destructive energy, frustrations, foolish behaviour, fightings, shortcomings in characters and the outbreaks which emerge from them, hate, love and other feelings running wild. So is life
The best we and in fact EVERY society can do about it is to try to channel all the above mentioned into something constructive...is that so hard to understand?

Of course you can also try to quieten the more delicate matters by simply forbiding them and banning everyone who might be someone with a loud voice in order to get a clean area which might please developers and other "officials".... such would be a truly dead place...an "official" place....

And Erado ( or anybody else), please don't tell me that roleplaying is a "private" thing and has nothing to do with a community like ours. What are the clans else than pure roleplaying? Is anybody here who dares to state that we don't need them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Which finally leads me to the matter of the ORG:
From my point of view all this belongs to a fan-site but obviously we have different opinions about that.

Let the Kenchi-Wolf war begin so that the observers and historians have something to think and write about
Imagine the notice in the Totalwar-history books:

November 2002: Full-scale war broke out between two mighty clans, the Hunting Wolfs and their allied forces ( including none other than RAGE and its merciless but powerful leader Monsta ) and Clan Kenchikuka and their numerous allies. The incident that lead to this bloody and bitter war was the affair and aftermath around the great Kenchikuka-politician Terazawa. All the tenses which slept close beneath the surface suddenly exploded and lead to the GREAT WAR in winter 2002/03.
In the first battle of Agincourt (there were many to follow on that legendary battlefield) the Wolfs defeated the Kenchikukan forces heavily but Satake was able to reorganize his scattered troops and attacked the feasting and unaware Wolfs shorty after on Carcano, thereby dishing out a severe blow to the Wolfs self-esteem. But MagyarKhan himself now rode hard with a massive Wolf-army and many mercenaries to sacrifice into the Hattin-landscape occupied
by Kenchikuka....and so on... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

After all, this is a wargame (hehe) so lets lead our armies into vicious battles both on the field and in the political forums.

yours Jemasze alias TheFool

and by the way: Tera if you are here, come back and say a word of sorry to all as your final "personal" statement and than continue to be the fantastic Janus-headed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif smart politicians character i and many others enjoyed so much in the past months and years

Erado San
11-14-2002, 18:08
I love role playing. Have played RPG around the table for years. This is not a table though, this is the Org, with their no fire zone policy.

Have a war. Fine. But not in here. Yell threats at each other in your open clan forums for two weeks, then meet online and have a go at each other, anything goes. Kick the s... out of each other and have a ball.

Just don't bother the community with it. 99.999% (that's everybody who's not a member of Kenchi/Wolves) couldn't care less.

Jemasze Toda
11-14-2002, 18:28
...and what should a fan-site look like?

I like Order Foot soldiers best and you?
I prefer Chivalric Knights.
Jannisaries suck.
No they don't.
Yes they do.
The game is boring.
No it isn't.
Yes it is. (post deleted by mods)
The game is fine
Yes
Its nice but it has some faults.
I dislike the game as it is now (topic closed by mods)
Hey What about musquetiers? Are they worth the price?
No.
Yes.
No.
I think the Org should not... (post deleted by mods)
F...Why did you delete my post? (post deleted by mods)
Ok now i use sarcasm in order to get a voice
(member banned by mods)
(post deleted by mods)
I love the danish in early era
I love the germans.
You are fools. The spanish rule
I agree.
I disagree.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Just exxaggerating a bit of course...

yours Jemasze alias TheFool

(topic closed by mods, post deleted and member banned)

MagyarKhans Cham
11-14-2002, 18:39
and as ever u bring light into the Dark ger, Jemasze. Well we have eager wolves, longing for a war and we could use a fine historian writer like yourself. We can even build a watchtower for u and your wives to view teh battlefield.

MagyarKhans Cham
11-14-2002, 18:42
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=2339

"I think it reads very clearly: special rules. I'm sure you know what the normal rules are. Your constant harrassing of patrons, developers and the org is annoying.

This topic is closed.

TosaInu
Guild Administrator."


-------------------------------------------------------
I wonder to whom Tosa id referring to when he says "Your...."

Can someone enlight me? Somethimes I am even more simple than TheFool.