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kyodai-britishbeef
12-06-2002, 13:33
After playing the game sp and mp for a number of months i am totally dissatisfied with the english longbows, they seem to be totally devoid of any historical accuracy or link longbows except in name. my points are:

range is short: long bows could easily be fired 300 yrds or more. (evidence to support this was found at battle sites including shrewsbury)

not enough arrows: a typical english longbowman could accuratelylaunch 20-30 arrows a minute, so they would have alot of arrows to ensure this rapid fire.

as a highly trained unit i think the longbows could be a lot more effective if the were abit more dangerous and would be alot more fun to use during the game imo

MonkeyMan
12-06-2002, 14:10
Exactly why many people have edited not only longbows but most of the missile units in the game. Go and ask in the dungeon for some advice on editing the projectile stats file or you may well be able to download someones already edited version.

Puzz3D
12-06-2002, 17:10
kyodai-britishbeef,

The open fire range in the game is supposed the weapon's effective range rather than its max range. The 6000 range of the longbow represents 120 meters which is no doubt less than the effective range these weapons had historically. I think what CA is really doing here it keeping the range limited so that the battlefield seems bigger. They have even said that is the reason why the fatigue was chosen to be what it is.

I would agree that all the archers need more arrows, and I don't think that more arrows would throw the SP game off balance. I mean after all, CA has an unlimited ammo option. So, if they felt that the game balance was ruined by more ammo, they wouldn't have this option. The unlimited ammo is extremely unrealistic, and so are the fatigue off and morale off options. So, those options are useless for 99% of the players. For some reason, we are stuck with the same 28 arrows that original STW had as though it's some kind of universal magic number. Why can't the single ammo, fatigue and morale option settings be something more reasonable? They could be used as a way to make ranged units more effective, fatigue less of a factor in battle and morale higher so units fight longer before routing.

We increased archer ammo in WE/MI v103 from 28 to 36 and it plays better in MP and SP. Repeated requests to CA in writing and on these forums for game selectable options on things like fatigue and morale have gotten a negative response because they say vets will use these options to confuse newbies. CA has taken the game to a certain point in terms of play balance that they feel is sufficient. So, as far as CA is concerned, the longbows are fine. Modding it yourself is the only real option, and CA has included considerable capability for players to do that which is great. No problem in SP because you only have to satisfy yourself. MP is more of a problem because you need agreement amoung the players on what to change and how much to change it, and this isn't easy to come by because people have different styles of play and favorite units. In addition, most online MP players won't use an unofficial stat no matter how good it is. Even so, there may arise a small group of players that use an agreed upon custom stat in MTW online with glorious longbows and units so finely balanced that you can purchase any unit and be confident that you are not wasting your florins and showing up on the battlefield with a lost game before you even hit the begin button. If you want to know what that's like, try WE/MI v103 Sengoku Period game.

kyodai-britishbeef
12-06-2002, 18:20
thanks for your post puzz, it made interesting reading and i was a veteran (if not a well known or elite one}of shogun then m.i so i know all about the imbalances that arose. and i am pleased that some people do agree about the longbows and i am not flamin the game it is just a unit i was looking forward to using and was dissapoint with and just wanted to air this and see how other players felt about it. And i do realise that it wont be changed officially so i will find some stats to use inmy single player games that r more to my historical liking http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Puzz3D
12-06-2002, 21:13
kyodai-britishbeef,

I tried very hard to make the longbows work in MP, but I couldn't find a way to make them viable when the enemy shows up with pavise arbs. When the game first came out, pavise arbs were not used as much and the longbow faired better. Archers may be weak in the game, but when both players take them it balances out. With every passing day, more and more players are identifying and using the better units, and you can't ignore that if you want you army to remain comparable in strength to the enemy's army. I've even seen top players immediately switch to the Byz or Spanish factions to get the strongest units if you happen to beat them.

You can take down a pavise arb line to about 60% strength with longbows, and then you have to advance with the infantry since if you don't the arbs will damage your hth units with the rest of their ammo. The longbow might be useful if you take one or two and target valuable enemy units. The cheaper upgrades that ranged units get can give the longbows good hth capability in high florin games. The longbow may also be preferable over arbs when you plan to make a quick offensive since their rate of fire is so much faster, and the limited ammo won't run out. You want to make your attack while you still have ammo because units take a -2 morale penalty when they suffer casualties from arrows.

Unfortunately, if you go to the Jousting Fields forum, you won't see much discussion on tactics. You'll see a lot of complaining and discussion about who is the best player, who is not a good player, who is the most underated player, who you should bow too in the foyer, why am I only a junior member, why did I get a yellow card, etc...

I was in a 4v4 game last night where LadyAn made AMP who had 12 heavy cav look like a newbie, and swept four veteran players off the board while I was trying to straighten out my lines after I miss clicked all my infantry to attack a single unit, and our center ally stayed back and didn't advance. Of course, very astute army selection by LadyAn was a factor, and there is some discussion in the Jousting Fields on spear/cav unit matchups. Our right side ally also did a very good job. I'm going to post up the replay of that game, but I haven't thought of a good title for it yet. You'll see Spanish (Lancers), Elmohead (handgunners), Byz (byz inf/var guard) and English armies all under veteran commanders defeated in succession.

kyodai-britishbeef
12-06-2002, 21:58
wow sounds like agood battle m8, i would like to see that one. i have played with lady ann once in the past and she was v good.

ShadesWolf
12-06-2002, 22:16
With my colleagues over at OOOO (ShadeFlanders and Tarrak) we are currently looking at recreating the battle of agincourt. We have a new map with stakes in the ground.

We are currently testing out our new stats. we are on version 3 as the previous two gave the longbows to much of an advantage.

Last night we tested a 2v1
French 20 units
English 16 units

It was a humiliating defeat for the french, with the killing ratio of England 400 dead V French 1000 dead.

This game is availalbe for download, to show how we are getting on2 v 1 Longbows at Agincourt (http://www.shadesmtw.com/oooo/2v1longbows.mrp)

More info can also be found on our web site and forum....

OOOO Forum (http://pub158.ezboard.com/bonerorderofomissions)

OOOO Website (http://oooo.freewebspace.com/)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

kyodai-britishbeef
12-06-2002, 23:07
thanks shade, i will check it out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

SmokWawelski
12-09-2002, 20:00
These are some very true comments about longbows/archers/ranged units in here. There are numerous other threats in the forum that touch on it. You guys are right, that the only viable solution as of now seems to be modding, since CA will probably not change the stats some dramatically right now. (Although you have to agree that the patch did change A LOT, especially in unit pricing, and made the game a lot more interesting…) Maybe if we wait until Xpack or something…

I myself have changed the ammo for all dedicated archer units to 40, if I remember right, and changed the range for longbows from 6000 to 6100 (there are some problems with angle of shooting if you bump the distance too much so I am taking small steps) and the lethality from 0.63 to 0.75. It plays a lot better and I am looking into doing some more changes soon…

Did any of you make similar changes and want to share experience?

king Halla III
12-09-2002, 21:00
i hate longbowers.
i was playin historical campian and the 100 wnglish war and thy carnt shoot more then 10 meters i mean long bowers LONG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

pyhhricvictory
12-10-2002, 19:46
Smok,

I tried a mod on the Longbows increasing their accuracy (helps a lot) and the range. I found that after you hit a certain range the accuracy seems to drop off to the point that they cannot hit a target. In other forums, I gathered that the lethality did not have much of an effect since each arrow causes 1 hp of damage and each person, except for generals and royalty, has 1 hp. I could have misunderstood though.

The increased accuracy seemed to help the most, since more arrows hit, more people died. I did, however, go too far and wiped out two units of spearmen before they reached my lines with two longbow units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I am still tweaking the numbers for all of the missle units to try and force a change in tactics in my campaigns and make the units a bit stronger.

SmokWawelski
12-10-2002, 20:43
Quote[/b] ]The increased accuracy seemed to help the most, since more arrows hit, more people died.

Pyhhrivictory, what would be then in your opinion a good adjustment to the accuracy, as far as lbows are concerned?

I found that especially on defense, the increased number of ammo goes a long way towards helping the archers be a valuable unit...

pyhhricvictory
12-11-2002, 05:29
I have accuracy for all bows, long and short, set at .80 with crossbows set at .85. I also forgot about the lethality, you were right about that. It adds to the kill cahnce. If you are looking to build general killers up the power on them as well.

Even though the men only have one hit point, the lethality is a percentage of the arrow actually killing the man.

Sorry for the error http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Knight_Yellow
12-11-2002, 06:49
Even though longbows where good if they r made any better mtw will turn into a whoever takes the most longbows wins game i like them as they r weak and easy to rout.

SmokWawelski
12-11-2002, 16:18
Well, the changes that we are talking about cannot be used in MP I assume, since both computers would have to have identical stats. For our own skae we can do whatever we like to suit our tastes

Victory, thanks for the stats. I have not made any more changes since the last time, except upping the charge bonus for Lancers from 8 to 9. Let them be deadly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Now I am trying to play the game instead looking over the txt files.

hundurinn
12-11-2002, 23:02
I'f you haven't downloaded the patch do it the are better in the patch.

SmokWawelski
12-12-2002, 02:52
The major change in my opinion is the cost of the units, which is quite lower after the patch (at leat on the units that I care about)

I_Love_Sherri
12-12-2002, 06:01
How do I go about editing my longbow. Is there a database editor I need to d/l? Sherri

housecarl
12-12-2002, 14:43
You just need to open a file called Projectilestats in the medieval install folder using a text editor like notepad and change the statistics next to longbow. Make a backup first

I_Love_Sherri
12-12-2002, 22:43
My blondness is showing.......I can not find a medievelinstall file anywhere?.......Sherri

LadyAnn
12-12-2002, 22:56
Sherri:
Show off hairs, eh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Just kidding.

I just know where it is installed, but ask me to mod it,... no way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So I defer the real answers to the experts.

Annie

pyhhricvictory
12-12-2002, 23:54
Sherri,

It is the MTW folder on your hard drive. the projectilestats file is a text file in that folder.

SmokWawelski
12-20-2002, 20:52
Another question, if anybody is still reading this topic: How come not all the units have their names in the projectile stat file? Does it mean that arbs and pavise arbs use the same projectile stats? Same with all the archer types and the xbows ???

Thanks

Musashi
12-20-2002, 21:43
The projectiles file just delineates different types of projectiles. There's an entry in the units file for every unit type that uses a projectile that says what projectile type from the projectiles file they use. If I recall correctly it looks like projectile_type(xbow) or projectile_type(sbow) etc.

You can find out what projectile type each unit uses by looking in there.

-Musashi

SmokWawelski
12-21-2002, 04:18
Thanks a lot, It clears my modding mind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Dark Prince
12-21-2002, 06:37
at first I thought longbow men have long range,good attack and good defense,after I try them out in MP,i find them extremely useless,if you place them on top of hill,they have better range,however,they run out of ammo first,bad morale.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

SmokWawelski
12-21-2002, 17:59
Thats why we are tolking here about modding this unit Prince

king Halla III
12-21-2002, 22:49
face it longbowers r crap

SmokWawelski
12-22-2002, 02:02
Well, so are some other units... Are you using peasants? The LB might not be a super-unit, and out of the box are not so great, yet still people like them...

kyodai-britishbeef
12-22-2002, 12:40
my point is the longbow should be a super unit, they could fire 10-20 shots per minute and hit a 6 inch plate at 200 yrds http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif this is why they were so devastating , actual reamins of longbow men found that they had a greatly over developed right arm (think it was the right) due to drawing the the equivalent of 100lbs of resistance to fire there deadly missiles . http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Stormer
12-22-2002, 15:06
i agree longbows need seing too, so do all missiles i think they micked up there.
Stormer

Cheetah
12-22-2002, 17:41
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Dec. 06 2002,14:13)]I was in a 4v4 game last night where LadyAn made AMP who had 12 heavy cav look like a newbie, and swept four veteran players off the board while I was trying to straighten out my lines after I miss clicked all my infantry to attack a single unit, and our center ally stayed back and didn't advance. Of course, very astute army selection by LadyAn was a factor, and there is some discussion in the Jousting Fields on spear/cav unit matchups. Our right side ally also did a very good job. I'm going to post up the replay of that game, but I haven't thought of a good title for it yet. You'll see Spanish (Lancers), Elmohead (handgunners), Byz (byz inf/var guard) and English armies all under veteran commanders defeated in succession.
Yuuki, have you already uploaded this file? If so, what does it called? I just cannot wait to see it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif