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Macedon
11-27-2002, 18:48
We all saw this movie(with Mel Gibson...)right?.Well,I can't understand this:in the last sequence,where the big battle is fighting,the tactics used from both sides looks (to me)very,very unpractical.I mean,both sides are mostly standing and watching each other,while bullets fire and people fall downWhat if some radical general remembers the old tactics,and assemble an army of dirty,ushaved:p,and really bad people,and then unleash them on the nice little,standing town folks?What will happen when they(Patriot armies)face a screaming,badass soldiers from hell,threating with their bloody axes,their eyes full of barbaric hate?
What is your opinion?do you think that Patriot's tactics are usefull?

solypsist
11-27-2002, 19:36
The only real tactic I saw in that movie is where the (British) cavalry is sent out to cut down the fleeing and panicking enemy (Americans). This was in the beginning of the movie.

rpasell
11-27-2002, 19:48
Whether or not the tactics were useful is irrelevant. They were agreed upon as civilized. Up until leaders realized winning was more important than being civilized, there were a lot of senseless tactics.

Brother Derfel
11-27-2002, 21:02
Quote[/b] (rpasell @ Nov. 27 2002,12:48)]Whether or not the tactics were useful is irrelevant. They were agreed upon as civilized. Up until leaders realized winning was more important than being civilized, there were a lot of senseless tactics.
This did happen to a certain extent, but was not nearly as wide spread as you suggest. The 'good manners' of war in that age was more that the time a battle would commence was decided upon by the opposing generals and this was kept to. When it came to the actual battle most formalities were forgotten, it was more that the tactics that the generals used were out of date and unsuited to the type of warfare that the American's started to employ aganst the British in this period.
As far as I can remember (saw the film a while ago) most of the tactics were a bit iffy (The redcoats would have reacted slightly more to an assault from the 'Patriots' in the set battle at the end, but the aparetn standing by whilst they shot the hell out of each other was certainly a policy used by most generals of the age.
And I am afraid that the old style 'blood and thunder' aproach of charging straight at your opponent would have only met determined volly fire from rancks of muskets as often demonstrated by colonial armies facing 'native' armies.

I also seem to remember not liking the film all that much, but then i'm British (and still don't forgive Mel Gibson for Braveheart http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif )

Thanks

terryblack825
11-27-2002, 21:29
Yeah for some reason Mel Gibson likes making movies that have to do with brittish people getting killed.

Qilue
11-27-2002, 21:34
Naval tactics during that time were largely unimaginative as well.

Each opposiing fleet would line up bow to stern and blast away at each other until one side surrendered, ran away or was destroyed. Hence the expression ship of the line. In engagements like these, british ships were usually at an advantage over their french and spanish opponents.

The french and spanish expected their gun crews to learn to load and fire the cannons when the cannon balls started flying. The british on the other hand used live ammunition during lulls to train their gun crews. The net result being that british ships could fire their guns almost twice as fast as french and spanish ships.

It wasn't until some imagination shown by Rere-Admiral Lord Nelson using his 'breaking of the line' tactics at Trafalgar did the line of ships nonsense end.

Macedon
11-28-2002, 00:27
So,who would win:
A redcoat commander(whatever),or Mr.Wallace?

Foreign Devil
11-28-2002, 06:10
Historically, tactics usally lag behind technology. Massed fire from troops marching in formation was used in the civil war, even though this was unnessecary, due to the improved accuracy of the rifles used- the tactic was used in the revolution because that was the only way to hit a significant number of enemy soldiers. We all know how many casualties this resulted in. Incredibly, human wave attacks were also used in the first world war, with men charging right into machine gun fire (of course, the japanese bonsai charges in wwii did this too, but thats a different story).

Regarding Patriot, I thought the ambush scenes were somewhat close to realistic (or at least close to the ideal of the minute men). Or maybe i just enjoy seeing redcoats being beaten- I am half irish, of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Postino
11-28-2002, 08:08
all the major points about British tacticts during the American Revolution being made, i will now harp about Mr. Gibson. He is a shmuck. Since that horrible version of hamlet that he had a part in he has been a shmuck. As long as me makes period war films he will be a shmuck. I dont think he is all that good of an actor either.

Dijeeh
11-28-2002, 08:13
I would just like to point out that the movie you mention here was canned by a few reviews for its lack of historical accuracy.

Don't use this movie for tactics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Gregoshi
11-28-2002, 08:34
Mel Gibson isn't the first nor will he be the last to butcher history on film. However, one part he played put him in the great actor category for me.

I live near Philadelphia and the 4th of July is a big deal in the city for some reason. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Two summers ago, the city assembled a dozen or so actors and actresses to take turns reading the entire Declaration of Independence for a live and (national?) television audience. They included stars like Whoopi Goldberg, Sir Anthony Hopkins, Jack Nicholson, Tom Cruise(?) and Mel Gibson. The other stars did a nice job, but Mel Gibson outclassed them all. His voice boomed out the words and reignited the outrage against England expressed in that 225 year old document. My heart was pounding and my breath was short while listening to Mel. I desperately wanted to grab a musket and fight the British again...or at least toss a crate of tea into the harbour. I had to settle dropping a tea bag into a cup of hot water. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

It was really something to hear. Of course, it falls right in with the anti-British theme you were talking about. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Victorius Maximus
11-28-2002, 17:40
Anyone see We Were Soldiers? IMO his best movies to date, fairly sound tactics, and no anti-british sentiment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Michiel de Ruyter
11-28-2002, 18:27
I have not seen the Patriot, but usually at that time, tactics were to stand in line and fire, while the lines behind were reloading. Up untill about that time, rifles, or actually muskets, were simply not accurate enough to get a decent kill rate, and inflict considerable damage... Even in the Napoleonic Wars this tactic was still used (even though there was much more effective field artillery)..

By the way, this simply floating in two lines and gun away naval tactic was first invented (and used) by the British during the First and Second Anglo-Dutch naval wars, to take advantage of the number and size of the guns on their ships (and conceal the lack of mobility due to size of the ships and quality of the officers). These wars were by the way an immense spectacle which the rest of Europe watched in awe... Put into todays proportions, it would mean two navies with the power and size of the US navy slugging it out, intend on destroying eachother.

solypsist
11-28-2002, 19:01
Quote[/b] ]Anyone see We Were Soldiers? IMO his best movies to date, fairly sound tactics, and no anti-british sentiment.

Yeah. Great movie. The character played by Mel - Col. Moore- was the same character played by Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now (the 7th Cavalry) of much quoted I love the smell of napalm in the morning, and Charlie don't surf fame. Note the big difference between versions. After doing some research with books, I've found the Duvall-based character much closer to the actual reality of the real-life Col. Moore.

Brother Derfel
11-28-2002, 20:20
Quote[/b] (Dijeeh @ Nov. 28 2002,01:13)]I would just like to point out that the movie you mention here was canned by a few reviews for its lack of historical accuracy.

Don't use this movie for tactics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I think the main historical inacurasies were not so much in the tactics (which somebody pointed out the ambushes were indeed accurate and were one reason the Americans had the edge on the British), but in the portrayal of the british cavalry officer (momentarily forgot his name) as an evil black hearted devil, when in reality he was a fine soldier and his memory in my opinion has been blackened unfairly by this film in order to add some drama to it.

Sorry but I have never liked this film since seeing it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Foreign Devil
11-28-2002, 21:15
Gibson was offered the Hamlet role after a director saw his gun-in-mouth scene in the first Lethal Weapon movie. But I like the Kenneth Branaugh Hamlet better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Brother Derfel
11-28-2002, 21:33
Quote[/b] (Foreign_Devil @ Nov. 28 2002,14:15)] But I like the Kenneth Branaugh Hamlet better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I most definatly agree http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

tarkins
11-28-2002, 21:52
I use this tactic with my horses. When you attack an ennemi with a lot of archer. You charge him with a few number of horses. Then you reatreat to bring the ennemis under the fire of your archer.

SmokWawelski
11-28-2002, 22:48
Speaking of British and their warfare tactics: did anyone see the movie Four Feathers? In the sequence of British defending “the square” on the desert, the tactics of shooting into the charging, mad sea of warriors was shown up close. I do not know if that could be accurate, meaning the difference in numbers would probably mean death to Britts after all, but it looked quite impressive. One point goes to British (I am Polish, and do not look for anything more that a bottle of Newcastle in return) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Brother Derfel
11-28-2002, 22:57
Quote[/b] (SmokWawelski @ Nov. 28 2002,15:48)]Speaking of British and their warfare tactics: did anyone see the movie Four Feathers? In the sequence of British defending “the square” on the desert, the tactics of shooting into the charging, mad sea of warriors was shown up close. I do not know if that could be accurate, meaning the difference in numbers would probably mean death to Britts after all, but it looked quite impressive. One point goes to British (I am Polish, and do not look for anything more that a bottle of Newcastle in return) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .
Well we Brits did once rule most of the globe so we must have been doing something right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wonder where it all went wrong though........ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Dark Angel
11-28-2002, 23:17
It is a great shame that Hollywood feels it needs to rewrite history to make a story good. It is also unfortunate that it seems to always do so to make the US out as wonderful and everyone else either as evil or if an ally then of no consequence.
I like the American people but it does them no justice when this happens.
eg U571
As for tactics there are few films that are of any use to pick up tips or strategies. The only ones I can think of is the excellent Waterloo and Zulu.

Best wishes

Papewaio
11-29-2002, 00:42
Quote[/b] (solypsist @ Nov. 28 2002,12:01)]Yeah. Great movie. The character played by Mel - Col. Moore- was the same character played by Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now (the 7th Cavalry) of much quoted I love the smell of napalm in the morning, and Charlie don't surf fame. Note the big difference between versions. After doing some research with books, I've found the Duvall-based character much closer to the actual reality of the real-life Col. Moore.
Actually as far as gun-ho attitude they both were on par in both sets of movies.

'Its getting quite sporting here' Mel Gibson after shooting a rifle one handed through a charging guys forehead (not exact quote).

The movie in my recollection is quite different to the book it is based on. Charge scene at the end I don't recall reading about in the book. When Hal Moore leaves the field he is the last to leave of his battalion... but by that point they have two sister battlalions guarding the LZ.

Which books by the way? After reading the one through Hal Moores eyes it reminded me of the thread about cavalry officers in the last forum... seems to be it was more then just being helicopter cavalry they had many of the same traditions and attitude.

The movie overplayed the odds, underplayed how much fire support, and underplayed some of the scences (yeap some of the things in the book are jaw droppers and sound more like a Bruce Willis movie then reality).

There is a definite anti-british theme in Mel Gibsons movies. I'm not sure if that is being an aussie upbringing or an american or both.

I think a movie undervalues the heroes by making the enemies weak or one dimensional. If that was the reality so be it, but to often the opponents are made into the darkest villians. This diminishes the real villians and it diminishes the heroes to cookie cutter formula.

Macedon
11-29-2002, 01:50
Speaking of battle scenes,I say the best one is the
(in)famous landing scene in Saving Private Ryan
What a fight,ha? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Papewaio
11-29-2002, 02:27
Beachheads were massacres.

Factor in a smaller country (easier to defend coast/move in reserve units) and a fanatical fight to the death attitude you can see why invading Britain would be hard.

Same applies to Japan and the reason to drop an atomic bomb becomes a little bit easier to understand as a means to an end.

tarkins
11-29-2002, 02:35
I just love war movie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Postino
11-29-2002, 03:00
Quote[/b] (Foreign_Devil @ Nov. 28 2002,08:15)]Gibson was offered the Hamlet role after a director saw his gun-in-mouth scene in the first Lethal Weapon movie. But I like the Kenneth Branaugh Hamlet better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Brannagh RULES

his most recent role was that of Gilderoy Lockheart(Harry Pothead, Chamber of Secrets), and while the character didnt have much for him to do anything with, he still did it well.coincidentally, the British general from Patriot was also in Chamber of Secrets, as Lucious Malfroy. Looking rather pretty he was, my wife and all her freinds swooned after him.

anyway, so it was the directors fault makes perfect sense if he was also the one who decided to do Hamlet in a mideival scenario

yes, Shaka Zulu was a good film, and some basics could be picked up there.

Knight_Yellow
11-29-2002, 04:31
Ok im the only one of u lot who can give an unbiased review of the subject for two reasons im scottish so the whole ocupying my country in medeival times pisses me off but then when the americans revloted it was scottish soldiers dying with the english as well as the welsh and irish.
So its a flippin film they didnt make it seroius if they did no1 would have paid to see it cos realy 1 man cant make a difference. and gibson is great as an actor (Mad Max series any1?)
jesus if ur gonna diss a war film u gotts diss em all. including all the ww2 movies this might cum as a shock to the americans but the war had been on for 2 yrs before u joined, all ur country did was sit back and make money by selling supplies. until the japs got ya at pearl harbour.
sure britian wouldnt have invaded and got to berlin but the germans wouldnt have got us no army has ever set foot on brittish soil since the romans.

so how do u like them apples?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Foreign Devil
11-29-2002, 05:46
Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Nov. 28 2002,21:31)]this might cum as a shock to the americans but the war had been on for 2 yrs before u joined
As I recall, Germany was winning during those first 2 years.

And don't forget how close Britan came to losing the battle of the atlantic- I'm sure the 50 US Destroyers Roosevelt gave them helped somewhat.

Papewaio
11-29-2002, 06:00
Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Nov. 28 2002,21:31)]but the germans wouldnt have got us no army has ever set foot on brittish soil since the romans.

so how do u like them apples?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Nod, nod, nod, hang on bulldust alert.

How about a year 1066?

Them apples are wotten you wascably scot... btw I think a few others landed a few times in britain between the Romans and now.

desdichado
11-29-2002, 06:07
Quote[/b] (Dark Angel @ Nov. 29 2002,08:17)]As for tactics there are few films that are of any use to pick up tips or strategies. The only ones I can think of is the excellent Waterloo and Zulu.
Can you tell me more about this film waterloo. haven't seen it but wouldn't mind as I kinda like the napoleonic era as far as history goes.

Thanks

Gregoshi
11-29-2002, 08:13
The Battle of the Bulge had great tactics for you to learn.

First there is the run-around-until-the-German-tanks-run-out-of-gas tactic. You can simulate this in MTW by causing some of your men to rout so that the enemy cav will chase them 'til exhausted.

The second tactic is roll-gas-barrels-down-the-hill-to-blow-up-the-German-tanks. This has no application to MTW.

The last tactic is more subtle. It is the bake-a-chocolate-cake-and-ship-it-from-Boston-to-the-front-lines-and-let-the-enemy-capture

-the-cake-so-they-can-see-how-superior-your-supply-lines-and-baking-skill-are tactic. This is the equivalent to bribing an army in MTW. This is also the origin of the phrase having your cake and eating it too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

BTW, I like cake better than apples any day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Knight_Yellow
11-29-2002, 10:18
Well what do i have to say other than ur all wrong?
heres a lesson so pay attention (ahem)
America is bad
America is full of itself
America will one day fall
America probably deserve whatever they get.
oh and before all u rednecks start i aint a terrorist or sum suicide bomber im a Britian.
and the only armys after the romans to land in britian where either supporting the scots vs the english or english vs the welsh or irish vs the welsh and english so technichaly it wasnt britian it was england so i say again
no army has ever set foot on brittish soil and we once ruled the known world so there apple sauce b****.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

EDIT: Re-spelt your last word, in the interest of friendly argument. Welcome to theOrg. ~KukriKhan

Gregoshi
11-29-2002, 16:47
Knight_Yellow, considering just about everything in this thread is merely opinion, we all can't be wrong. Opinions aren't wrong, they just differ from person to person.

As for your, ahem, lesson, 1, 2 & 4 are your opinion - period. Only #3, American will fall, is most certainly a fact.

On a lighter note, if America had not sent Ben the chin Affleck over the Pond to save Britain's butt during the Battle of Britain, you British would be Germans...er, something like that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Brother Derfel
11-29-2002, 20:48
Quote[/b] (Dark Angel @ Nov. 28 2002,16:17)]It is a great shame that Hollywood feels it needs to rewrite history to make a story good. It is also unfortunate that it seems to always do so to make the US out as wonderful and everyone else either as evil or if an ally then of no consequence.
I like the American people but it does them no justice when this happens.
eg U571
As for tactics there are few films that are of any use to pick up tips or strategies. The only ones I can think of is the excellent Waterloo and Zulu.

Best wishes
Yeah, I detested U5711

It realy angered me the way they stole the Royal Navy's acomplishment in helping to break the Enigma code and gave it all to an Ammerican vessel. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Although it made me laugh out loud in the cinema at the end when they credited all other ships that had captured Enigma code books and all of them had the lovels little H.M.S before their names.

Rule Britania, Britania rules the waves.........etc http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif



(no offence made to you Ammericans out there we could not have won the war without you, but why steal other peoples glory as well when you have enough of your own? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Brother Derfel
11-29-2002, 20:54
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Nov. 29 2002,09:47)][
On a lighter note, if America had not sent Ben the chin Affleck over the Pond to save Britain's butt during the Battle of Britain, you British would be Germans...er, something like that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
No joking, but i actualy find that very ofensive to the Many young brave and courageous British (and Polish) fighter pilots that lost their lives during the war, many of them flying practicaly untrained against the most powerfull and experienced airforce in the world.

Shame on Hollywood, have they no morals at all? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

(And techniqly we British are Germans, both the Angles and the Saxons are German tribes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )



Edit:my appaling spelling http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Brother Derfel
11-29-2002, 21:02
Quote[/b] (desdichado @ Nov. 28 2002,23:07)]Can you tell me more about this film waterloo. haven't seen it but wouldn't mind as I kinda like the napoleonic era as far as history goes.

Thanks
Actualy, being a bit of a Napoleonic buff (ooh am I blowing my own trumpet a bit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ) there are actually many flaws in the film Waterloo, so do not watch it as an accurate depiction of Napoleonic warfare. (Particulary the private staggering out of the square to cry 'why must we go on fighting what will war ever achieve?' not the sort of thinking that would have been prevelant at this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif )

Don't get me wrong though, it is a great film and well worth watching if you like the Napoleonic era.

Role on Napoleonic Total War is what I say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Knight_Yellow
11-29-2002, 21:11
Simple fact that any1 with half a brain knows the brittish favour quality over quantity and the only reason the americans where able to help britain is cos theres so damn many of u just remember, ur country was built by OLD BRITANIA...... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Brother Derfel
11-29-2002, 21:19
Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Nov. 29 2002,14:11)]Simple fact that any1 with half a brain knows the brittish favour quality over quantity and the only reason the americans where able to help britain is cos theres so damn many of u just remember, ur country was built by OLD BRITANIA...... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
*sigh* old Britania indeed.

Although I am afraid that is all in the past now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Indeed we did found the main American collonies, but we can not take credit for their development after the original 13 states (was it 13? could an American that knows their Hstory better than i do please correct me)

After all it was the Ammerican dream of 'Manifest Destiny' that drove them to build the great nation that it is today. and steal all the land from the natives who are now getting it back in court cases http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But seriously mate, you can not bad mouth the Ammericans that much, don't judge them by there leader............. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Postino
11-29-2002, 21:51
i am American. we, as a society, are the dumbest shmucks on the block. if any other Americans would like proof of our stupidity, here:
given a world map, the youths of America couldnt find their a$$es
87 percent cannot find Iraq
83 percent cannot find Afghanistan
76 percent cannot find Saudi Arabia
70 percent cannot find New Jersey
49 percent cannot find New York
11 percent cannot find the United States

so any bad opinions of America are welcome by me. our current leader is especially a bull-goose fool. the one before that....well he was a good president, but his choice in fluzzies was not all that terrific. i agree that #3 from Knight Yellow is fact, but it will take a while. i want out of this country, atleast for the sake of my future children.

Brother Derfel
11-29-2002, 22:08
Quote[/b] (Postino @ Nov. 29 2002,14:51)]i am American. we, as a society, are the dumbest shmucks on the block. if any other Americans would like proof of our stupidity, here:
given a world map, the youths of America couldnt find their a$$es
87 percent cannot find Iraq
83 percent cannot find Afghanistan
76 percent cannot find Saudi Arabia
70 percent cannot find New Jersey
49 percent cannot find New York
11 percent cannot find the United States

so any bad opinions of America are welcome by me. our current leader is especially a bull-goose fool. the one before that....well he was a good president, but his choice in fluzzies was not all that terrific. i agree that #3 from Knight Yellow is fact, but it will take a while. i want out of this country, atleast for the sake of my future children.
lol, you said it though i am not so sure that many of your fellow Ammericans will take so kindly to insults.

The problem being that it is so easy to take the micky out of Ammerica right now, many of us can't resist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Knight_Yellow
11-29-2002, 22:27
It aint my fault that i slag america it tvs fualt.

1. 2DTV is the funniest cartoon ever made and it rips the pure pish out of bush

2. to a lesser extent the live floor show (scottish) also has a good few jibes at old oh say can u see

3. ur president what a fanny bring back clinton he ruled with a tasty cigar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

and i would just like to point out that im not nor should any1 else take any of these comments seriously cos if u do... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
i cant wait till isreal kills every1 and quite right too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Gregoshi
11-30-2002, 00:16
I believe the topic of discussion in this thread had to do with tactics learned from the movies. Despite a valiant effort on the part of Brother Derfel to keep on topic, it doesn't take half a brain to realize this topic has drifted off course into questionable waters. So, before a pickup truck full of tobacco-spittin', gun-tottin' rednecked Americans shows up to defend their country's honour, just like you would your's, and things get really nasty, why don't we return to our regularly scheduled program currently in progress? Hint, hint

On topic: The movie Gettysburg had a wealth of information regarding American Civil War tactics. Talk of skirmishers, refusing the flank, concentrated artillery fire (don't know how to spell the French term), oblique movement, and Longstreet's mathematical formula for the outcome of Pickett's charge. The movie first introduced me to the term ground for battlefield.

Meade: Is this good ground?
Hancock: Yes, good ground...very good ground.

I love that kind of talk.

Papewaio
11-30-2002, 00:43
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Nov. 29 2002,17:16)]So, before a pickup truck full of tobacco-spittin', gun-tottin' rednecked Americans shows up to defend their country's honour,
Those would be the Americans of Scot ethnic origin.

----
The Normans in 1066 was after the Romans. That was the start of the chain of events that created Britain.

And I love how Brits slag their own specially the English and complain about the English taking over Wales/Scotland/Ireland. Then in the same breath say how they were the mighty British Empire. Seems a contradiction.

As I have said before mummies boys stayed at home. The adventurers created the Empire and broke off it at various stages. Obvious when you compare where USA is to Britain is now, or how well the rest of the Commonwealth countries thrash the Brits at sports 80% of the time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

----
Actually all I see is a bunch of countries with similar hertiages enhancing the world as a whole. I am not sure what the world would have been like had the French conqured as much as the globe as the Brits. Nuclear testing, French Foreign Legion and Terrorist actions by the French make it difficult to see how the world would be anywhere as nearly as good as it is now.

Knight_Yellow
11-30-2002, 03:32
Ehh hang on there m8 england didnt conquer scotland they did however get wales but ireland is a mixed bag most of it is on its own but the top bit is brittish. scotland is brittish cos we signed a deal, becos Robert the Bruce (Scottish king) who won freedom for scotland after the english cut him up, signed a peace treaty with the french chick longshanks' duaghter in law, now i dont know if his son was gay like in braveheart but she did have him dispposed of. i only ask that u think of britian as 4 countrys not just england.
i do however feel that we need to get back to the point so im gonna say war films would be too expensive too make them realistic ie. period costumes, researching, it costs a fortune so the vast majority just put in the old hero vz insane villan plot.
i would however commend gladiator on the intro battle very realistic to my knowledge and well worth the oscars. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Gregoshi
11-30-2002, 04:19
I don't know, Knight_Yellow, the movies, i.e. Hollywood, seems to be able to get costumes & equipment right when there is a filmaker that cares about the subject. If they don't care, then you have medieval movies with characters caught wearing watches, powerlines in teh background, etc. But I think they really screw it up with the story. It is like they think what really happened isn't exciting enough so they have to spice up the story. That stoooopid scene in Pearl Harbor where the two American pilots play chicken with Zeroes on their tails. Give me a break The other annoyance they do is to simplify things by combining several people into one character. Of course, we're slamming Hollywood for butchering history, but they do the same thing with books.

The noteable exceptions to the above are, like I said, when the filmaker really cares about the subject. Ron Maxwell with Gettysburg and Peter Jackson with the Lord of the Rings are two fine examples of directors who cared about their subject.

I really should rent Gladiator. It keeps coming up again and again in these movie threads. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

KukriKhan
11-30-2002, 07:13
OK fella's. Get your licks in now, because this thread is going black in 10 hours.

G'head: bash the Brits, the Yanks, the Iraqi's, the Israeli's. Make fun of the Poles, Hungarians, Croatians, South Africans. Tease the Spanish, the French, the Scandi's, the Germans.

Mock the Catholics, the Jews, the Muslims...deride the Hindu's, Buddhists, Christian Protestants, Animists, Pagans and Wicca's.

Get your fill.

Because it's going away. Soon. And intolerance for the opinions, beliefs, education, ethnic background, sexual preferences, mastery of English, or toilet habits of fellow members will not be tolerated here. Period. End.

Just remember a paraphrased quote from the Yank pollie, Tip O'Neal: Never say anything you don't want to read in the New York Times headlines tomorrow.

KukriKhan
11-30-2002, 07:56
Forgot to add:

Happy Birthday Knight_Yellow

May your years be exceeded only by your wisdom.

Barkeep http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Mithrandir
11-30-2002, 09:37
Quote[/b] (KukriKhan @ Nov. 30 2002,00:13)]OK fella's. Get your licks in now, because this thread is going black in 10 hours.

So spam all you want
Isn't this against the .org policy?

However...who am I to let an oppurtunity to spam go by http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

#Spamdispam wonderfull spam#

hm... reminds me of the good ol' days sonny...

Spetulhu
11-30-2002, 17:21
Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ Nov. 30 2002,00:43)]
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Nov. 29 2002,17:16)]So, before a pickup truck full of tobacco-spittin', gun-tottin' rednecked Americans shows up to defend their country's honour,
Those would be the Americans of Scot ethnic origin.
Funny how some Americans (and others I dont recall) just can`t be happy being what they are. How the hell do these people think if they call themselves Irish, Scots, whatever while being third- or fourth-generation immigrants to the old US? Do people really live in ghettos with only fellow 'countrymen' from the old country?

ShadesWolf
11-30-2002, 22:48
In attempt to get back to the thread.....

Has anybody seen the Film 'Joan or Arc.'

I saw it a few months ago, its on for about 3 hours....
But it is well worth watching. There is some useful medieval stuff in the film and so really good English V French battle scenes......

Dark Angel
11-30-2002, 23:48
desdichado

The Waterloo film was made around 1970? It starred Christopher Plummer as Wellington and Rod Steiger as Napoleon. Incidentally the extras were drawn fron the Red Army

No offence was intended in my previous post. United we stand.

Best wishes

Knight_Yellow
12-01-2002, 01:52
Hmm just when i decide to get back to the topic it gets closed down real smart boys keep doin that and no1 will post. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Gregoshi
12-01-2002, 07:03
Now, now, Knight_Yellow, it takes two to tango as they say and who was leading? BTW you've just taken the thread off topic again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I think I've seen parts of the Napoleon movie. I hadn't heard of it before that which is unusual for me. The big name stars and the (as I recall) poor quality of the film was an odd mix. Am I remembering correctly seeing squares of infantry in the movie? I'll have to pay more attention to see when it is on next time.

I'm surprised there haven't been more movies made about the Napoleonic wars. It certainly had lots of action.

Brother Derfel
12-01-2002, 16:30
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Dec. 01 2002,00:03)]I think I've seen parts of the Napoleon movie. I hadn't heard of it before that which is unusual for me. The big name stars and the (as I recall) poor quality of the film was an odd mix. Am I remembering correctly seeing squares of infantry in the movie? I'll have to pay more attention to see when it is on next time.

I'm surprised there haven't been more movies made about the Napoleonic wars. It certainly had lots of action.
Yeah, that would have been the movie, everyone always remembers the squares.

Yeah i am suprised their havn't been more Napoleonic films, witht eh exception of Waterloo and the fantastic Sharpe series I know of practically no others http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

There should definatly be more, i would love to see a film based round Austerlitz or Liepzig, or even Borodino.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Gregoshi
12-01-2002, 19:19
Maybe we can get Ron Maxwell interested in Napoleonic Warfare. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

housecarl
12-02-2002, 10:28
Have to agree with you Dark Angel, the anti-British nature of hollywood films these days is getting a little wearing, I mean we're their most loyal ally and have been for 80 years now I think they needed a replacement for the Soviet Union as the evil empire in films, the ironic thing is America is regarded as the evil empire in large parts of the world these days, although not in Britain where they are still well regarded although we're getting fed up with their portrayal of us

Gregoshi
12-02-2002, 15:53
The reason for the anti-British trend in Hollywood is probably due to political correctness. Hollywood is branded as stereotyping various national/ethnic groups if they are portrayed as the bad guys. The British are about all that is left as a valid target except for the US itself, and the US government as the bad guy was overdone during the '70s and '80s.

Buliwyf
12-02-2002, 16:27
Several of the above posts have mentioned good manners on the battlefield etc.
This one made me lol when I read it many years back, I thought you may enjoy it.
I believe it was during the 1812 war between Britain and America.
A Royal Navy Ship was given the task of taking dispatches to the Commander of the British forces in America.
The dispatches included objectives and maps showing what and how he should attack.

The ship was intercepted and captured by an American Frigate.
When the American Captain discovered that important dispatches were on board he let the British ship go so they could be delivered (unseen). On the understanding that after the dispatches had been delivered the British ship would sail to an American port and surrender.
The British Captain delivered the dispatches and then surrendered his ship.
The British Generals in America followed their orders and attached the designated targets successfully.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Knight_Yellow
12-03-2002, 01:47
Ok i know this is going off topic but its the only way i will get any info to my m8ts.
Sum may have noticed i aint been playing mp for a few days it aint cos im fed up' but my comp got a virus and then my geforce 2 fan stopped witch melted the card screwed up my mother board and currupted my hard disk. LOL
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
im typing this on my dads comp but his is too shitty to play or even install mtw, im hopefully gonna get my computer parts tommorow in town(good thing i was upgrading it anyway) but knowing my luck sumthin will happen...
so if any1 goes on mp and sees Devil, Kyle1987, or Celtiberoskull then plz tell them my comp is shagged.
god another night of tv WHY ME??????. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

KukriKhan
12-03-2002, 03:37
Totally bad news, Knight_Yellow m8. Man...you don't do ANYthing halfway, do you? On the other hand...what an opportunity for an upgrade http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I'll pass your message to your MP m8's if I see them.

Hope you're back in the cyber-pink soon.

Knight_Yellow
12-03-2002, 13:37
OK i got my new mother board hard disk and graphics card but i aint loaded mtw yet for one reason can i take it if it dont work???.
I think im gonna need to find out (Damn im gonna have to put the patch on again) ok here goes alot wish me luck... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Gregoshi
12-03-2002, 15:49
Good luck Knight_Yellow. I hope your efforts aren't feudal. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Knight_Yellow
12-03-2002, 18:54
CELEBRATE GOOD TIMES http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
it works yay. and i won my first game in a week double yay
Once again the scottish hordes will decend upon the villages of pathetic rabbles, with the leadership of ME the clans will unite and go to WAR

Gregoshi
12-03-2002, 22:49
...and the wild Scotsmen were unleashed upon the land... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

KukriKhan
12-04-2002, 13:03
...and de lamentation ov de wimmin (Schwartenegger as Conan) was heard throughout the realm...

Congrats, Knight_Yellow. I didn't see your battle m8s in the hour I was on last night; 'course I was busy getting my butt kicked (again).

GameDesigner
12-05-2002, 04:33
About the use of linear tactics. What isn't always obvious to people who ask why the heck are those guys just standing their they should get behind a tree or somthing is that these tactics were developed not only to deliver maximum fire power but more importnatly to maintain command control. Sure you could get a unit to take cover in the woods but good luck getting them out again. Before modern times command consisted of the human voice, sometimes trumphets and bugles, and hastily written orders delvered by messanger. Under these conditions the only effective way to control units was to keep them in ranks. Once a unit broke ranks for any reason (usually either to run like hell or to loot something) it was almost impossible to get them back under control.
Another factor in the use of massed liner formations was the morale effect. Having your buddies all around you made you less likely to run and a mass of enemies bearing down on you is a lot scarier then a cloud of skirmishers.
For these reasons linear formations weren't completly eliminated until the advent of the radio. Although the advent of higher accuracy and rate of fire weapons made them less and less effective, especially frontally.

Shahed
12-05-2002, 08:55
Quote[/b] (Qilue @ Nov. 27 2002,20:34)]Naval tactics during that time were largely unimaginative as well.

Each opposiing fleet would line up bow to stern and blast away at each other until one side surrendered, ran away or was destroyed.
Hi All

At the follwoing link there is some explanation as to why naval battles used to be as they were:

http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/cannon.htm#J

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Wolf
12-05-2002, 16:29
/comes in late


Quote[/b] ]the japanese bonsai charges

The mental image of that will keep me laughing for the next couple of days.

http://mozdev.org/bonsai/bonsai.gif


HAYAAAAAA

Gregoshi
12-05-2002, 16:37
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Good one Wolf.

Mr Frost
12-12-2002, 11:44
Quote[/b] (terryblack825 @ Nov. 27 2002,14:29)]Yeah for some reason Mel Gibson likes making movies that have to do with brittish people getting killed.
Mel Gibson is a card-carrying catholic , the English are protestant ... pretty easy to see his motivation {he wants a pat on the head from the Pope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

mario_yepes
01-21-2003, 19:24
Since you guys are discussing the Patriot, I believe Nathaniel Greene (the general that Gibson attempted to portray) used a game saving tactic in that staged last battle which was partially accurate. It was mainly a bait and switch which used a calculated retreat by skirmishers to draw in the English Dragoons, and crush them once envelopped in the line.
The battlefield exists today in North Carolina, although the centerpiece hill and ruin are not as dramatic as a simple copse of trees.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Tim
01-22-2003, 06:44
Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ Nov. 28 2002,13:20)]
Quote[/b] (Dijeeh @ Nov. 28 2002,01:13)]I would just like to point out that the movie you mention here was canned by a few reviews for its lack of historical accuracy.

Don't use this movie for tactics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I think the main historical inacurasies were not so much in the tactics (which somebody pointed out the ambushes were indeed accurate and were one reason the Americans had the edge on the British), but in the portrayal of the british cavalry officer (momentarily forgot his name) as an evil black hearted devil, when in reality he was a fine soldier and his memory in my opinion has been blackened unfairly by this film in order to add some drama to it.

Sorry but I have never liked this film since seeing it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Don't fall for the myth. The war was not fought with American miltiamen armed with rifles picking off the British at 200 yards. Stop reading third grade Social Studies books. We won and lost battles during the Revolution by fighting European style linear tactics. Until the rifled musket could be massed produced, cheaply, plain old smoothbore muskets did the killing, and they did it well.

Tim
01-22-2003, 06:52
Quote[/b] (Michiel de Ruyter @ Nov. 28 2002,11:27)]I have not seen the Patriot, but usually at that time, tactics were to stand in line and fire, while the lines behind were reloading. Up untill about that time, rifles, or actually muskets, were simply not accurate enough to get a decent kill rate, and inflict considerable damage... Even in the Napoleonic Wars this tactic was still used (even though there was much more effective field artillery)..
What do you mean, muskets, were simply not accurate enough to get a decent kill rate, and inflict considerable damage.

Smoothbore, single shot muskets accounted for up to 80%-85% of all causalities during the Napoleonic Era, with the majority of the other 15% being attributed to artillery. No one ever said, or expected them to be accurate. You simply don't understand this type of warfare.


Rifled muskets were simply impractical for land warfare until the 1840-50's, when they could be massed produced cheaply. The percussion cap and minie ball, of course, helped.

Tim
01-22-2003, 07:06
Quote[/b] (mario_yepes @ Jan. 21 2003,12:24)]Since you guys are discussing the Patriot, I believe Nathaniel Greene (the general that Gibson attempted to portray) used a game saving tactic in that staged last battle which was partially accurate. It was mainly a bait and switch which used a calculated retreat by skirmishers to draw in the English Dragoons, and crush them once envelopped in the line.
The battlefield exists today in North Carolina, although the centerpiece hill and ruin are not as dramatic as a simple copse of trees.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Actually, the end battle seems to be a combination between Guilford Courthouse and one of my all time favorite battles, Cowpens. In fact, the British bad guy, Tarlington, was supposed to be Banistre Tarleton (sorry about the spelling)

It’s a movie of course, but I thought they did a great job on a few things. One is the effect of firing black powder weapons. You'll see several of the soldiers wincing and turning their heads right before they fire. This was done because the sparks and burning powder would get on ones face and eyes. Also, the effect of cannon shot on tightly packed troops was done well.

Where they about lost it was when Mel was watching the battle (I'd say Camden) half way through the movie with his son. Gibson comments that we will never beat the British by fighting out in the open using European tactics. This is complete and utter poppycock. That's exactly how we did it. It was the only way to do it. Forget hiding behind trees. Please.

mario_yepes
01-22-2003, 18:47
Thanks for the correction Tim
That information had gone out of my mind.
One thing I did like about The patriot was the cinematic sequences. The initial battle >which might have been Greensboro? Was well staged and atmospheric.

I will agree with the general feel of the forum, I would not take that movie for tactics. MTW probably owes us for integrating flexibility and strategy to medieval warfare where tactics were more prominent. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif