Creative Assembly Educational value [Archive]

el_slapper

12-11-2002, 15:35

In most countries, including the most democratic ones, History & Geography teaching is flawed by nationalism & politics. In France, the worse moments of our history(the dark ages, both Wars in Algeria) are forgotten. Dark ages are also a come-back in progress, and thus do not enter the leftist principle of sense of history.....

AFAIK, it's the same everywhere, with the lone exception of WWII taught in Germany & Japan.

A.Saturnus

12-11-2002, 16:23

Well, in Germany it`s exactly the opposite. We hear a lot about the World Wars but a lot of other stuff is forgotten. In our school, American history was left out completedly. I asked my history teacher once, why we don`t hear something about the Mongols, who had the biggest empire ever and had very developed civilization compared with Europe at that time. He said there would not be enough documents about the Mongols to rely to, which is definitely untrue

Alrowan

12-11-2002, 16:28

i wish i was in your class

rasoforos

12-11-2002, 16:29

well i somehow believe your teacher was correct in that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

to the main subject: historical manipulation at schools is bad , political manipulation is even worse and better covered

Vlad The Impaler

12-11-2002, 21:02

excellent ideea Arrowmaker wish to be more teachers like u
most of them have an boring ideea of teaching.
yours i can say is very liberal one
but what u ll gonna do if the girls not like gaming ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

btw , wellcome in this great community http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Musashi

12-11-2002, 23:41

I doubt that will be a problem... I find that in general girls like video games, they're just not as obsessive about them as most boys are. Besides, give any kid a choice between a video game and bookwork and see how easy they decide http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I agree that history in school kind of sucks, at least it did here in the US... They covered all historical periods, but they left out all of the interesting details. Basically they glossed over anything involving evil actions or violent occurences... I guess they thought it would all be too disturbing for us kids or something. To me it just seemed like they were giving us the playskool version of history or something, and I always hated being talked down to.

-Musashi

ToranagaSama

12-12-2002, 01:46

Quote[/b] (Arrowmaker @ Dec. 11 2002,07:23)]I read a post on the educational value of MTW
As a history teacher I have seen the ed value of MTW and intend using it in the classroom next year to bring medieval history to life for my students.

I especially love the historical pop ups and the battle scenes, if only history had been this good when I was at school (only ten years ago&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
My compliments to you Teacher http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

If you ever get around to Japanese history take a look at Shogun. If you think MTW has educational value, Shogun's level is 2 to 3 times greater.

There's an entire section of the CD providing background history on Japan and the period Shogun covers You should pick it up just to see what a game can do.

CA deserves SERIOUS kudos for the effort I for one THANK THEM.

Good luck with the class.

MonkeyMan

12-12-2002, 01:56

I find it almost strange that games influence me to learn things. It is certainly the case that because of Close Combat 3 i found the need to learn a lot more about the eastern from in WW2. And because of MTW the need to learn a lot more about the relevant period other than was relevant to my own country.

Possibly i should find other motivations, but i did feel good explaining the blatent difference between the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire to my boss the other day when he was doing a crossword, and needed a four letter word that was the name of a leader of this faction for 3 generations. I pointed out the otto was a better idea than nero. You may find this amusing, but this could keep my job given the half ***ed attempt i do the rest of the time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Arrowmaker

12-12-2002, 07:48

Well I am blown away by the response of that first post.
Thanks for the welcome.

I found history boring in high school but like a lot of you I 'discovered' it in tertiary years.
Re the comment about girls, I think girls can get into computer games (especially during class time&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
I used a battle of Hastings game on the BBC site earlier this year at a girls school and had them gainfully glued to the screen for a good half hour; not bad for year 8.
I haven't played Shogun but am reliably informed its great. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

GilJaysmith

12-12-2002, 11:26

This is excellent to hear. Let us know how it works out.

Gil ~ CA

el_slapper

12-12-2002, 12:51

Yeah, good games have an obvious educational value. I know fairly well firearms thanks to JA2 (and the bear's pit forum). Far better than what I knew out of my military service(I know, french army sux) I've learned much about ancient times on AOE(not the game itself, though, but the help files were wonderful). Pirates taught me the geography of Caribbean region(the CPC version didn't have a built-in map, so I had to rely on an Atlas universalis. Way cool).

And it is an excellent argument against those who say Video games are useless tools from Satan(don't laugh, Familles de France is very influent on that topic). Between boring learning & fun learning, my choice is quickly done...

On the other hand, many games show an oriented view of history, where the biggest country in amount of customers(guess who?) is shown as overheroic..... And I don't speak of America's Army, where both sides are US soldiers, seeing the other side as terrorists

All_the_Sultan's_horses

12-12-2002, 15:41

hmmm. a capital idea, tt. if only i could've played something like MTW in history class

el_sapper, u are, alas, mistaken abt politically-motivated history book-cooking being more prevalent in western democratic countries. the japanese have to be the most cruel invaders the 20th Century has known, surpassing even the germans and soviets. yet in japan the history of wwII, particularly stuff like the rape of nanking, barbaric experimentation upon POWs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif and the use of bioweapons against civilians is completely glossed over. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif japan's role in wwII is whitewashed as a war of defense against the evil western powers seeking to encircle japan. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

Gregoshi

12-12-2002, 16:43

Excellent idea Arrowmaker.

One of the best memories I have of high school was the time our history teacher used the Avalon Hill game The Origins of World War II in class. He made a large game map to layout on the classroom floor and divided the class up into the different countries. That was a great week of class and worth the class time spent on it.

Good luck with your efforts.

Foreign Devil

12-12-2002, 22:16

Quote[/b] (Musashi @ Dec. 11 2002,16:41)]I agree that history in school kind of sucks, at least it did here in the US... They covered all historical periods, but they left out all of the interesting details.
You should take some AP (advanced placement) classes. I took AP European history my junior year, and we learned all sorts of good stuff. College level classes, IMO, are vastly more interesting that high school ones.

Arrowmaker

01-27-2003, 02:52

Dear GilJaySmith,

My school informs me that I need permission to use MTW in the classroom.

Could you put me in touch with the right people or even organise this for me please,

Looking forward to your reply,

Fletcher http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

malkuth

01-27-2003, 03:26

Good idea. But as a history teacher you must also see the flaws in the game. Pop ups are great. But Battles were hardly what we have in this game.

Units are not all right either. But im sure you can pull some stuff out of it.

Gregoshi

01-27-2003, 06:05

Arrowmaker,
You might want to email Gil. He doesn't come here much anymore as he's onto other projects now. I imagine he will refer you to someone else in CA or Activision.

Edit: Figures, Gil posted today in another EH thread... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Major Robert Dump

01-27-2003, 06:08

You should think about incorporating the Leisure Suit Larry series into your curriculum. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Dijeeh

01-27-2003, 09:49

Quote[/b] (Arrowmaker @ Dec. 11 2002,16:23)]I read a post on the educational value of MTW
As a history teacher I have seen the ed value of MTW and intend using it in the classroom next year to bring medieval history to life for my students.

I especially love the historical pop ups and the battle scenes, if only history had been this good when I was at school (only ten years ago&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Don't teach your class false information thanks to MTW.

Actualy, if you want more accurate info try the game Europa Universalis II

Quite unusual that game, but it's accurate and highly detailed compared to MTW, it makes MTW look like a childs game.

Fairlight

01-27-2003, 22:02

Quote[/b] (Dijeeh @ Jan. 27 2003,02:49)]Don't teach your class false information thanks to MTW.

Actualy, if you want more accurate info try the game Europa Universalis II

Quite unusual that game, but it's accurate and highly detailed compared to MTW, it makes MTW look like a childs game.
Yes, but lets face it: Europa Universalis' pace is so tectonic that it would be inappropriate for the classroom.

Mr Frost

01-28-2003, 05:16

Quote[/b] (Fairlight @ Jan. 27 2003,15:02)]Actualy, if you want more accurate info try the game Europa Universalis II

Yes, but lets face it: Europa Universalis' pace is so tectonic that it would be inappropriate for the classroom.

A good point ; most childeren have the attention span of a goldfish . The teacher is trying to grab their interest and attention long and soundly enough to insert some actual information sideways between the vast masses of crass and inane advertising and poor substitutes for culture they are fed by society on a daily basis . MTW provides a possible handy tool in achieving this goal .
The mod-freindly nature of MTW gives it further potential : the less than historically accurate can be mostly modded to be correct and that which cannot could then be readily explained as such {as the teacher would then have the students' attention and interest} .

Knight_Yellow

01-28-2003, 05:29

heres 5 games that ive learned mutch from

Close combat 5
MTW
STW
age of empires series
champ manager series

although most of medieval isnt accurate realy.

cos if it was then wouldnt it be impossible to conquer half of europe since historicaly in that period that didnt happen.

el_slapper

01-28-2003, 18:06

Close combat series are really accurate. I've been playing countless hours on the 3 (did you know the single battle of Stalingrad made more casualties than the whole Wester front?), and somewhat the 5(unfortunately, the gameplay is nearly similar, so the interest is less).

But, of course, those are remaining games, and sacrifices are done to get some gameplay. Camping totalwar would not sell good, I fear...

Oberiko

01-28-2003, 20:03

I have to agree with using MTW over EU.

At 8th grade he's not looking to make them masters of Europeon history, but simply to get a loose grasp of it. 10:1 almost none of them even know what the Byzantine Empire or Holy Roman Empire were.

At least with this he can show some of the more important singular events, battles, places and factions that were in Europe at the time.

NagatsukaShumi

01-28-2003, 20:18

If only we did Medieval history in my history lesson, it's all World War II and Northern Ireland, BAH

It's nice to see that some teachers actually care about making lessons fun, most of mine make them as boring as possible.

some_totalwar_dude

01-28-2003, 22:58

I've got a cool history teacher, but that's because he never gives us homework, so i can play more MTW, and drool about RTW

GilJaysmith

01-28-2003, 23:38

Quote[/b] (Arrowmaker @ Jan. 27 2003,00:52)]Dear GilJaySmith,

My school informs me that I need permission to use MTW in the classroom.

Could you put me in touch with the right people or even organise this for me please,

Looking forward to your reply,

Fletcher :wave:
It looks like permission will be forthcoming... can you mail me at giljaysmith@hotmail.com with the email details of whomever we need to furnish with an official statement. The school's official postal mailing address and a contact name (your own would probably do) would probably be a good idea too.

Gaius Julius

01-29-2003, 05:31

Quote[/b] (Arrowmaker @ Dec. 11 2002,06:23)]I read a post on the educational value of MTW
As a history teacher I have seen the ed value of MTW and intend using it in the classroom next year to bring medieval history to life for my students.

I especially love the historical pop ups and the battle scenes, if only history had been this good when I was at school (only ten years ago&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I agree, and I'm not a teacher.
When I was in school, it would have been great to have a teacher to share in the same interest as myself.

This also brings up the point, that not all video/computer gaming is a bad thing.
I honestly believe that a game such as M:TW; could be held up as a shining example of what a positive, and fun hobby video/computer gaming can be.

There are those among us; who never even having played a computer game, will be the first to preach of it's evils.
They'll blame every social ill, catastrophie, on video/computer gaming.

Especially, those in prominent positions; who'll jump on any bandwagon that's popular, or convenient at the moment.
Two examples that come immediately to mind: Sen. Joe Liberman(Conn.), and Sen. Herb Kohl(Wis.).
These two distinghuished gentlemen are trying to pass the Media Marketing Accountability Act.
This piece of legislation is intended to stop the entertainment industry from deceptively marketing adult-rated products to children.
Isn't that what parents are for?
Imagine that, the state knowing what's best for your children, and not you

I only used the two U.S. senators as an example, I don't want to offend my American friends.
I'am sure that here in Canada; we have our own band of merry men, who are grinding their axes as we speak.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Arrowmaker

01-29-2003, 07:08

Thanks Gil, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
email to follow and I will give you a blow by blow account of proceedings.

RE: Gaius Julius' comment,
I highly recommend 'Bowling for Colombine'. I saw this film recently and it has much to say on these issues.

Canada features well in this documentary.

I agree that parents need to take responsibility however I do think that the media does have a powerful influence over us all; otherwise marketing wouldn't work.

What we need to do is teach young people to be discerning about the messages they recieve. Some pop culture eg. coke ads are capible indeed targeted to manipulate kids into thinking that they must wear this or do that/drink our product to be 'cool'. This sort of corperate peer-preasure can really damage self-esteem.

I welcome thoughts
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

el_slapper

01-29-2003, 12:45

Commentaire[/b] (Gaius Julius @ Jan. 29 2003,04:31)][quote=Arrowmaker,Dec. 11 2002,06:23]

Especially, those in prominent positions; who'll jump on any bandwagon that's popular, or convenient at the moment.
Two examples that come immediately to mind: Sen. Joe Liberman(Conn.), and Sen. Herb Kohl(Wis.).
These two distinghuished gentlemen are trying to pass the Media Marketing Accountability Act.
This piece of legislation is intended to stop the entertainment industry from deceptively marketing adult-rated products to children.
Isn't that what parents are for?
Imagine that, the state knowing what's best for your children, and not you

I only used the two U.S. senators as an example, I don't want to offend my American friends.
I'am sure that here in Canada; we have our own band of merry men, who are grinding their axes as we speak.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Olé. In France, it's a catholic organization that is leading the fight(familles de France - France's families), and politicians tend to follow them because they can be rather noisy...

No, it's not good to release a kid alone facing a videogame. Especially some violent ones. No, it's not good to release kids on internet without ACTIVELY monitoring them. Filters are soooo easy to crack for those young geniuses...

But it's the job of the parents. Not the job of the state. During weeks, video games have simply been banned in Greece, because games involving money-gambling is morally bad(and that point is debatable) and it is not possible to determine wich video games are gambling(in other words, they don't know what they're talking about), so, let's ban every video games... They've even arrested people playing chess online

Don't laugh, it could happen in you country. Politicians are usually not aware of what computers are. Mouse, for example, is translated as souris in french. In 1997, french president Chirac did ask, in front of the TVcameras, if that thing was the mulot(another word for mouse)..... He's still joked about But he's still in charge of my country, and it's easy to understand why internet developped slower here

In other words : the states makes law on a topic he does not understand. Cool

Arrowmaker

02-03-2003, 08:42

Thanks Mr Frost you are entirely correct. MTW does not have to be 100% accurate. These are 14 year old students and I want to invoke interest in the period and history in general. What better way that with a hands on game that brings the excitement of Medieval battles and the pressures of empire building.
Watch those peasants run from the royal knights...now what does that tell you about the fairness of the feudal society? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

barocca

02-03-2003, 08:59

Quote[/b] (Arrowmaker @ Feb. 03 2003,01:42)]...
Watch those peasants run from the royal knights...now what does that tell you about the fairness of the feudal society? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
help help i'm being repressed,
come and see the violence inherent in the system...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Arrowmaker

02-03-2003, 09:10

Got it in one

you go to the top of the class http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Foreign Devil

02-03-2003, 11:37

Quote[/b] (el_slapper @ Jan. 29 2003,05:45)]But it's the job of the parents. Not the job of the state. During weeks, video games have simply been banned in Greece, because games involving money-gambling is morally bad(and that point is debatable) and it is not possible to determine wich video games are gambling(in other words, they don't know what they're talking about), so, let's ban every video games... They've even arrested people playing chess online
I'll add this to my already long list of reasons I'm glad to be an American.

Michael the Great

02-03-2003, 13:21

Just curious,really,are romanians mentioned in Europe's history?

el_slapper

02-03-2003, 17:11

Commentaire[/b] (Foreign_Devil @ Fev. 03 2003,10:37)]I'll add this to my already long list of reasons I'm glad to be an American.
I'm glad to be french(providence-state & efficient health system even for poors), even if you yankees have some things we froggies don't have... Matter of choice.

Gregoshi

02-03-2003, 18:04

Michael, in my school during the early to mid-70's in the US, I don't recall covering anything about Romania in European history. England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and maybe a bit on Germany and Russia were about it.

As for using the game in the classroom, if it gets the students more interested in time period, they might actually read about it on their own or take more interest in the class. I'm far from a student anymore but STW did this for me. I knew very little about Japanese history. Thanks to the game, I know a bit more about it now.

Siena

02-04-2003, 00:07

I think this is interesting.
MTW does really have some educational value.
But I would agree with el_slapper: it is biased to appeal to nationalities to which game marketers are hoping to sell more of their product.

Somebody mentioned Romanians here.
How about Lithuanians?

It always puzzled me how somebody can look at Medieval European map of 1400s and not be interested in a country that is one of the biggest on the map.
In American college history textbook, Lithuania was shown biggest on the map (1400s), but there wasn't a single sentence about Lithuania in that textbook

may sound profane, but history is written by the victors... current victors, that is...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Pablo Sanchez

02-04-2003, 03:34

I always found it interesting how certain nations get forgotten in history books. Fortunately, the recent trend in American government towards increasing diversity is having good results in the newer editions of textbooks--at least in my limited experience.

Gregoshi

02-04-2003, 05:35

You are right Pablo. My daughter's history classes are covering stuff I sure don't remember. Not too long ago they covered Africa and Asia. If they taught it to me it was a brush over.

Portuguese Rebel

02-23-2003, 02:14

As a fellow teacher i want to congratulate you for your open mind... it takes guts to break with the system. If some of the parents start to nag you because of it make them paly the game too, and next bring them to this site and show them some of the historical information on it... cheers m8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Doge Enrico II

02-23-2003, 02:30

At my school we dont learn too much of anything.

Gaius Julius

02-23-2003, 06:04

Quote[/b] (Doge Enrico II @ Feb. 22 2003,19:30)]At my school we dont learn too much of anything.
Are you sure it's the school?
Sometimes you have to look in the mirror, and ask yourself, have I really tried hard enough to learn?

JANOSIK007

02-23-2003, 22:16

Arrowmaker, as ateacher, I think it's your responsibility to stand back and realize what's educational and what's just a pure entertainment. MTW has some educational values, but it's mostly entertaining. If it was totally educational, it'd be much more boring. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But in reality MTW isn't totally historically accurate.
You should than fill in the gaps for your students.

A friendly advice brought to you by ME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

JANOSIK007

02-23-2003, 22:20

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Dec. 11 2002,08:32)]Remember to tell them all about the Scott's.

If i dont keep mentioning them they wont get added to the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
At least you have a province that sais Scotland.

CA didn't add anything about Slovaks that lived in the North of Hungary, which was controlled mostly by Slovak nobles.

Arrowmaker

03-08-2003, 04:27

Thanks to the teachers who have responded.

I am new to teaching, a graduate, and while I am aware that the game is not 100% accurate, history seldom is. My main purpose is to promote interest in the subject through a stimulating exposure to the game (I am still waiting permission).

The BBC web site has some good educational games under history/games but these are not nearly as engaging or detailed as MTW. Especially I am finding boys respond well to games and war (funny that&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and this has sparked their interest in the subject in general. Of course the teacher as guide and facilitator has to fill in the gaps.

I am amazed that high school students are so disinterested in history (large generalization) but seem to become facinated once out of school. What's going on here is it teaching methods, maturity? And yes it does take a certain degree of co-operation from the learner. As a new teacher I am amazed that I should have to discipline students even to watch videos Such is the excitement of being in a room full of your peers I guess.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

HopAlongBunny

03-08-2003, 08:18

I hope the experiment is going well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MTW gives some of the flavour of the period. It is diverse enough to allow some branching from the regular medieval themes of knights and bowmen...just who were those Janissaries anyhow...

You can even introduce the idea of history as a model, interpretation, point-of-view.

I'd like to hear more about how the idea is working; More reports from the front please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif