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LadyAnn
12-07-2002, 22:52
I guess it is inevitable that a group of humans will try to find an optimum solutions to a problem. We see clearly in MP the effect: people find that playing Byzantine give them advantage, so many now go purple. Very few now play with factions like Danes, Russian, Poland.

Why should I go for French faction when it looks virtually the same as the Italian army (a subset of it) with the exception of the Hobilar and the Knight Templar. What an exception I can live without Hobilar as long as Alan Merc is available to everyone. I don't think the saving of Fl.50 would justify the tender charge of 4. Why on earth do I charge a cavalry unit into the opponent while my melee is higher than the charge? (Knight Templar has combat stat of 4/5/4.5). Charge stat lower than melee stat is obviously an error, no doubt about it. As Italy, I have many more choices.

When I play the Danes, I also found that it lacks the specialize unit. Given it has the Vikings, but the Vikings has worst stat than the Abyssinian Guards for the same costs (Vik: 3/3/0 vs. 4/4/0 of Abyss) and pale compared to the Byz.Inf. (Byz.Inf. 3/2/2 with 100 men).

If I chose Poland, the specialize unit is the Retainers. But at 8/3/3, it doesn't justify the cost of the upgrade.

If I chose Russia, I have no idea what I am good at. Boyars, horse that can shoot arrows? they got decimated by pavise arb. so can't use them in front. Can't use them in cav. vs. cav, other cav will eat them. Can't use them to harrass the rear, they are not cheap enough to beef up morale and be a detached unit.

Anyways, perhaps I am missing out the advantages of these factions, so you may jump on and point these out. (I appreciate it really. Show me what these guys are good at). My point is, if I am an average guy, or perhaps even worst, I am the average rusher guy, Byz. army is the answer.

I don't need to learn a lot about the units, Byz. army has only a few choices. Can't go wrong with Byz.Inf. armed to the teeth. Can't go wrong with a few Varangian Guards. Cataphractoi and Pronoiai are weak cavalry compared to Western Knights, but would do the job OK. Byz. have access to Pavise units, an advantage Turks doens't have. Same army every time would do the trick.

I don't need to learn different tactic. Just setup pavise for shoot out, then rush on with Byz.Inf. and Vag.Guard., keeping Cav. for chasing routed units or flanking.

I think the solution for this is on-line-campaign. Disadvantage on battle field would be compensated by geography. And if assignment of initial countries, which affect selection of armies, is done at random, then it's like you are born with your fate and live with it

Annie
(drunk with half a glass of Porto)

Crandaeolon
12-07-2002, 23:29
Quote[/b] ]Why on earth do I charge a cavalry unit into the opponent while my melee is higher than the charge?

I'm sure you know that the charge value is _added_ to the melee value when calculating a charge attack, so I'll assume that yer question is not really a question but a statement about the poor charge values of some cavalry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Solid points, LadyAnn. The Byz and the Spanish (for Lancers) seem to be the most prevalent factions in games I've played in. I usually pick the Germans, but that's mostly because of their neat crest. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Sure the Byz lovers aren't unbeatable as people have pointed out time and again, but it would be nice to see more variety in factions selected.

LadyAnn
12-07-2002, 23:40
Ah, charge is ADDED to melee, that's a nice thing to know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Learn new things every day. Thanks.

Annie

Magyar Khan
12-08-2002, 04:26
sure, climate and geographical maps relations will help yes... see the campaign maps below

http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201/web-campaign/campaign-maps/medieval-map-climate.jpg
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201/web-campaign/campaign-maps/medieval-map-geography.jpg
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201/web-campaign/campaign-maps/medieval-map-clans.jpg

Orda Khan
12-08-2002, 21:43
Lady Ann, I too share this worry and I posted my concern when MTW was released. My point is this....If there are a couple of very strong factions and the others are noticeably weaker, what is the point in selecting a weak faction? Why are some weaker anyway? This I have tried to but cannot understand. I recently tried the Horde and what an awful joke someone has played here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif Try them in early and see what you get to choose. The cav choice is Khwarazmian cav and Alan mercenaries??????
Hmmmmm I guess Chingis Khan hired a load of Alans to defeat the armies of Khwarazm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Then in Late you have the chance to use wonderful.........Urban Militia and Woodsmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Oh you do get Mongol Warriors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif wow
But think of the way you can harass your enemy with your famous Mongol Horse Archers. Ok your enemy just ignores them and concentrates on your heavier units.
I know I used the Golden Horde as an example but the same can be said for the other horse archer factions.
Lady Ann, I use Russia and I can tell you that Boyars are such a wonderful unit but u must treat them right. As for their infantry there really is not much to choose from but I enjoy playing them and will continue to do so because they are fun. If I was honest though I think they would always struggle against say the Spanish.
As I said before I think the game would be more interesting if there was parity for each faction. The same could be said for units too but that's another story

........Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

bosdur
12-08-2002, 22:06
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Dec. 07 2002,10:52)]When I play the Danes, I also found that it lacks the specialize unit. Given it has the Vikings, but the Vikings has worst stat than the Abyssinian Guards for the same costs (Vik: 3/3/0 vs. 4/4/0 of Abyss) and pale compared to the Byz.Inf. (Byz.Inf. 3/2/2 with 100 men).

If I chose Poland, the specialize unit is the Retainers. But at 8/3/3, it doesn't justify the cost of the upgrade.

If I chose Russia, I have no idea what I am good at. Boyars, horse that can shoot arrows? they got decimated by pavise arb. so can't use them in front. Can't use them in cav. vs. cav, other cav will eat them. Can't use them to harrass the rear, they are not cheap enough to beef up morale and be a detached unit.

Anyways, perhaps I am missing out the advantages of these factions, so you may jump on and point these out. (I appreciate it really. Show me what these guys are good at). My point is, if I am an average guy, or perhaps even worst, I am the average rusher guy, Byz. army is the answer.

I don't need to learn a lot about the units, Byz. army has only a few choices. Can't go wrong with Byz.Inf. armed to the teeth. Can't go wrong with a few Varangian Guards. Cataphractoi and Pronoiai are weak cavalry compared to Western Knights, but would do the job OK. Byz. have access to Pavise units, an advantage Turks doens't have. Same army every time would do the trick.

I don't need to learn different tactic. Just setup pavise for shoot out, then rush on with Byz.Inf. and Vag.Guard., keeping Cav. for chasing routed units or flanking.

I think the solution for this is on-line-campaign. Disadvantage on battle field would be compensated by geography. And if assignment of initial countries, which affect selection of armies, is done at random, then it's like you are born with your fate and live with it

Annie
(drunk with half a glass of Porto)
I think the problem here is most of the units are setup for single player play, and thus the uneasiness.

About the viking, they actually have large shield and which adds 2 to their defence bonus + a light armour (value=4), abyss has no shield and no armour. Very vulnerable even to frontal cav charge imo.

Puzz3D
12-08-2002, 23:24
LadyAnn,

Pray tell you are not giving up on the French They are in desperate need of inspired leadership.


OrdaKhan,

I leave the Spanish and Byzantines for those players who feel they need those factions to do well.


MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

TosaInu
12-09-2002, 00:32
Orda, you know that this can be edited right? What kind of warriors would the mongols have? MLC for all eras seems obvious.

Did the mongols use any infantry (apart from those during the invasion of Japan)? What kind of? Which significance?

tootee
12-09-2002, 03:37
I dont think the Russian has any advantage over the other factions.. but their army is so plain simple that it is much more fun and challenging playing with them.

Nobunaga0611
12-09-2002, 04:46
The thing I don't like about the whole situation is that many of these people who constantly pick armies like the Byzantines and the Spanish is, they're out only to win each and every game. So whats the problem with this? Sure I want to win, but I want that win to be challenging and rewarding at the same time. So sometimes I'll pick factions I never use on a regular basis, just for a fun challenge, or even a wierd army that really might not work, but that will be fun for me to try out. I also enjoy trying out hilly terrain, or snow, the desert, etc. The point is, there's always going to be people who don't care a bit about having fun, simply winning. And theres going to be those who want to win, but want to have fun doing it.

Only thing really to do is find those people who's ideals are in line with your own.

Orda Khan
12-09-2002, 23:04
Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ Dec. 08 2002,17:32)]Orda, you know that this can be edited right? What kind of warriors would the mongols have? MLC for all eras seems obvious.

Did the mongols use any infantry (apart from those during the invasion of Japan)? What kind of? Which significance?
Yes Tosa by someone more adept than me, I lack the knowledge and the confidence to start tinkering.

As for for units which could theoretically be included in the Horde choice......
The 'Golden Horde' was an entity until it divided in 1438 into the Khanates of Kazan and the Great Horde. There was another split in 1441 which brought about two more Khanates of Astrakhan and Crimea. It is also true that once the main contingent of the Mongol invading force had been recalled to Mongolia, the majority of Batu's Golden Horde were a mixed lot. Those nomadic peoples of central Asia, Kin Chinese, and Persian seige engineers, all nationalities made up the Mongol machine and no other army adapted so efficiently and showed their innovative ideas. Indeed, it was Batu who, when met by stiff defence attacking the bridge on the Sajo river, called up seven catapults that bombarded the Hungarian defence with rocks and flaming naptha, increasing the range as the enemy were driven back and allowing his troops to advance behind this barrage.
Though the mainstay of the Mongol army was the horse archer and the heavy cavlryman, I think it can be fairly safely assumed that other military units were included with the addition of so many auxiliaries. With this in mind and with warfare evolving I would think possibly the following units...
Order Foot
Spearmen
Mongol Infantry
Muwahid foot
Guards....of some sort
In explanation, I've included Spearmen (used to great effect by Qubilai against threats from Qaidu).These were Chinese conscripts and I think it's only fair to assume some spearmen were added from the newly conquered territories. This would be my arguement also for foot soldiers and infantry. Another interesting rivalry sprang up between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate of Persia, during which there was a history changing alliegance. The Horde allied with Mamluk Egypt against their Mongol cousins, in fact when the Horde tumens that had been loaned for the campaign in the Middle East were recalled, many of them went to Egypt .........Hehe hence the Muwahid foot. Saracen infantry could be used for Mongol infantry.

I suppose I really ought to start looking into 'modding' it's selfish of me to keep expecting others to do the work. Trouble is I just know I'll mess up. Any way I will look through the units and try to work out a better army for High and Late and DEFINITELY Early. I don't want an overly strong Horde, this would be no fun if they were invincible, but they must provide a challenge

........Orda

Kongamato
12-09-2002, 23:20
Orda, I just happened to be passing thru when I read that you were going to edit some Golden Horde stats. Let me suggest something. Give the MLC a missile bonus against armor. The Mongols had the ammunition capable of this, and would make them a threat the computer would take seriously.

LadyAnn
12-09-2002, 23:43
Yes, Mongol's composite bow was one of the best was armour piercing.

Annie

LadyAnn
12-10-2002, 00:05
I still be playing Franks, Yuuki. I went for Italy to try out a couple of units the Franks didn't have. But perhaps will play Franks only on my best day.

Annie

Dionysus9
12-10-2002, 00:13
Quote[/b] (Nobunaga0611 @ Dec. 08 2002,21:46)]The thing I don't like about the whole situation is that many of these people who constantly pick armies like the Byzantines and the Spanish is, they're out only to win each and every game. . . .
I like the fact you say "many", thank you for that qualifier. I regularly play byzantines, and spanish too, but having fun is most important to me. Winning is always nice.

When I am fighting on the battlefield, I try to exploit every advantage-- I flank when I am able, I take the high ground at every opportunity. When selecting my units and faction, I also try to exploit every advantage. Byzantine Infantry and Lancers are an advantage.

If people are getting tired of losing to the spaniards and the byzantines, I guess they will have to start losing to the Germans and Poles. :P I will have to work a bit harder, but they have useful units as well. But remember, in STW all we had were the japanese. At least we have Spaniards v. Byz, now

The big part of the problem is we are trying to take SP units and use them in MP without a mod or patch to beef up the week factions.

The Turks,for example are hard to win with in MP. In early era their only non-spear infantry unit is urban militia. Thats just plain hard to work with. My v4 "elite" turkish shocktroops have only 3 defense? Gah Turkish morale is, generally, dismal. Its just hard to compete if you take a turkish army against a seasoned player.

So I say--we got what we expected--nobody really expected "balance" from all these units and factions. We have variety, but most of it is pointless in MP. If we are left with Byz and Spaniards as viable factions, then that is better than just Japanese. (Remember, Mongols v. Japanese was never balanced properly).

Camels are the really bright addition to the game. They soak up arrows like a pincushion but frighten heavy cav. Thats an interesting rock/scissors/paper relationship that nearly every other new unit is lacking.

bosdur
12-10-2002, 01:12
Hehe.... I am also one of those ppl who often plays byzantine or spanish, 6-8 byz infantry usually, well as baccus said it's how some ppl get their fun from.The reason I use byz infantry is to relax my brain, dont need too many manuvering to use them, using a weird army makes my brain alert and tense. Instead of playing game for fun, I played with stress and heart beat heh... . I would argue though, that using byz infantry has its own disadvantage, I played a game one day where my opponent nicely crippled my cavalry, leaving only my byz infantries as melee units, well I was able to beat him, however after my cav were gone I was constantly worried about my back (cav charge). Just rout one of my units with cav and my game would end.

I guess those ppl who like challenge should get their fun from tackling me too rite http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, win-win situation here hehehe... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif .

Puzz3D
12-10-2002, 21:13
Hi Bosdur,

You got my flank nicely last night in that 3v3 with your Danes, but LadyAnn hammered you with her Franks. I guess she was having one of those best days. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The Byz did factor in that battle as my left side ally, using a Byz army, took out what I think was a Turkish army that was facing him. His four Byz inf each getting in the vicinity of 100 kills, and I believe he finishd with high kills of around 1150 which was well above everyone else. He is a very skilled player as well.

My point being that, if the Byz indeed have an advantage as they seem to and the top players overuse this faction, it will drive most other players to use them as well, and the frequency of use of the Byz faction will keep increasing. The Spanish, while having the fine lancer unit, does not pose the same threat because at least the lancer can be beaten by the better spear units, although, getting a spear on the lancer is another issue. While playing at 15K helps you when facing the Spanish, it may be making things more difficult when you face the Byz since the Byz Inf can overcome their low morale to some degree by getting more valor upgrades.

Nobunaga0611
12-12-2002, 00:40
Yeah I agree Dion, not everyone who chooses these factions does so to 'only win'. I use them as well, for those people who play to enjoy themselves, these are simply two other factions to choose from, so why not? And also, theres nothing wrong with gaining advantage in game. Why not take the high ground when its available, and you're not leaving your teammates vulnerable? And why not flank? I just think that the people who choose these factions strictly to have an advantage that doesn't involve skill or the use of some sort of knowledge are basically winning without knowing why they win. Ok, still, no problem there, its just a part of the game. But this becomes an issue when an even smaller group of people think this is a sign of their dominance, and thus they continue to do the same thing again. Now, if these people would just do so and not 'say things' to their opponent afterwards, then, no problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I don't mind losing. I think most people are in agreement on this issue though, I was just clarifying.

Kraxis
12-12-2002, 14:57
Puzz, sorry for the drop last night... bad connection with the server... first time. Did "we" win? At least I defeated my opponent before dropping. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Viking vs Byz inf...

Vikings have better attack and AP (grants 1 attack against Byz Inf) Byz inf has +2 in defense compared to Vikings. That is even.
The Vikings have 4 Morale Byz Inf 0, but they are Disciplined, that is even.
Vikings are 60 and Byz Inf are 100... that is not even.
So it all cometh down to numbers of men again.

Polish Retainers are great medium cav, the same as Armenian Heavy cav. They are perfectly balanced I think, but unfortunately they are locked in High while the Armenians are Early. In High Retainers are too weak compared to other knights. But still they are great, just not great enough.

Puzz3D
12-12-2002, 17:50
Kraxis,

Your drop actually made that battle even again, but we were able to defeat the 3 remaining armies on the hill. If you want the replay, let me know. It was one of 7 straight victories for my French + assorted allies, but the 8th was a different story.

Facing, from left to right from attackers view, defenders: UglyRaichu (Spanish 795/783), GlassHeart (Almohad 786/298) and UglyBaby (Byz 567/1052) with attackers: Donbatti (Spanish 732/801), MizuYuuki (French 546/743) and MizuKokami (Polish 826/633), we went down to defeat, and I guess you can argue that the French (kills/losses) didn't carry their weight. We did succeed in completely wiping out the Byz army of 1350 men, but I had to divert 4 units from center to the right to help accomplish that after we lost the left side battle between the two Spanish players. The skill level of all these players is similar. Total kills: attackers = 2104, defenders 2148.

Do the French have to go the way of the dinosaur when facing equally skilled opposition? I don't know yet.

Kocmoc
12-12-2002, 18:31
to the topic....

i dont agree
I play with germans, english,polish and nay other faction
there are some, which i like more than others....thats normal i guess....

boyars are pretty good cav and ifu use them right, they are 1 of the best cavs u can buy. It isnt just the fact than they can shoot as well, its more the fact that u have tactical points so ur enemy is very bussy to protect al lhis flanks if u field this units ...and they can defend themself

the european factions are very similar, and i dont realy fear the lancers, they are the best cav u can buy for this money but still u can beat them.

the english is a very nice faction and i would choose them if i had to decide between byz and english the longbow is just too good ofcourse u need to use them right.

all what i saw online so far, well excepts some very good player, is that the most guys are not using much tactics....they do a little shoot out and than they won or lost....so they charge or get charged....
if they have 4 arbas and the nemy 4 arbas too, the luck decide who of them lose the shooting..... mostly...

im sure many players dont do big mistakes but i see good players like CBR (no offence m8) who do many little mistakes. this end in a loss or they have much luck.....

with the current bonusses and loopwholes and bugs there is just too much luck around, this is the great problem...

example: enemy routing units can rout ur chasing units
so if ur cavarcher lose mens by chasing down they can get routed by the enemy routing units....this is stupid and i call it a bug

if a cav can make ur chivmaa V3 make rout in 1 sec by just use the chargebonuss, than i call this a problem

anyway....

the factions are not the problem and u cant balance al lthis special units, nether the normal units...
better the bugs and problems get solved first

kocmoc

http://www.diepaten.com/room3.jpg

Magyar Khan
12-12-2002, 19:11
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif who will listen? luckily more and more (one by one) get convinced "something" is wrong in teh game. only time will solve this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Puzz3D
12-12-2002, 20:08
Kocmoc,

You continue to call things problems and bugs that are neither in my opinion. Cav is supposed to rout MAA on contact, and, if your chasers are themselves close to routing, then they can rout because the routing enemy can kill some of your men. Your unit routs because it takes some casualties chasing the routers. Our experience may be different because I play at 15K. Anything below that is too much of a rout fest for me.

So, when CBR looses it's because he makes mistakes, and when he wins it's due to luck? That is consistent with the opinion you usually express about players.

Kraxis
12-12-2002, 21:38
Yes please (about the replay)...

CBR
12-12-2002, 23:28
Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ Dec. 12 2002,17:31)]im sure many players dont do big mistakes but i see good players like CBR (no offence m8) who do many little mistakes. this end in a loss or they have much luck.....
hm my name is mentioned a lot these days http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

First of all..dont worry Kocmoc Im not offended.

I might do a lot of small mistakes (and plz send me a list to I can correct them as soon as possible http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )as Im not the best MTW player, but how many times have we met in a battle for you to really judge my mistakes?

There might be some very obvious ones that a veteran can spot right away...I dont know. But I dont consider myself being lucky everytime I defeat the army in front of me. And its not just newbies I play against.

Ofc I havent developed my (lack of) skill by playing 1v1 but mostly 3v3 and 4v4 but the things I love about this game and what I consider myself good at will never be in a 1v1 anyway.

But enough about me :-)


Yes Lancers are good but not the monsters some people think they are. Ive now stopped using the Spanish to try another army/tactic and so I dont have to listen to some of the complaining heh.

Cavarchers routing while chasing..well depends on what cavarcher we are talking about and what valour you have given them. I dont see a big problem there.

If there is one thing I hate its when heavy cav gets stopped by high valour byz inf. If cav cant defeat/quickly rout swords(even cmaa) with a nicely timed charge then I would say we have a problem.


CBR

Magyar Khan
12-13-2002, 03:15
it isnt polite to ask kocmoc undercover names. but since your spanish armies became invincible for a while i sended some people to check it out, kocmoc was one of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

its recorded in teh clans history that your defense capabilities are larger than your attacking ones.

maybe work on overall army movement, and not solely manyknightsononespot throwing. another friendly wolf advice.

i have another u can use if u stay nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

LadyAnn
12-13-2002, 04:05
Magyar, Magyar, I am dying to see if you or Kocmoc get "undercover" and then give me advices sometimes. Perhaps you feel I am not yet ready to receive advices, just be sure I am working on improving my skills. One little bit at a time.

Of course, trainer comes to you. But it dosn't hurt if I keep looking.

Annie