FACT FINDING SHEET 3: key combos

[MagyarKhans Cham]

although this one isnt worked out yet, i see that many are already wilingly to test it themselves.

try these things...

-hold in combo with holdformation, esp after u trapped valuable enemy troops to your front
-engage at will while u have a broader line
-click cavcharge into unit, and out and in and out and in, keep charging

teh right combinations of these will be joyfull -for a while-, esp if u look at teh winning/losing/losing badly signals. somethimes i get even the idea teh more u click teh more u get. Longjohn is that true or just my imagination?

in short, i dont wanna win a game cuz i was the most skillfull in mass clicking units.

perhaps amp and koc can hand me over some replayfiles for uploading. i have seen a young wolf using it very effective as well. trapping knights with arbalesters http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

and with the other posts, for everything is a explanation why it is like it is and we have to deal with it. but remember all these things combined could be end up in a silly game once u mastered it. beating up people with is is fun for a while ofcourse.

[Dionysus9]

I dont see the hold/hold issue as a big problem-- It's a valid tactic and I don't think its overpowered.

I dont know what you mean "engage in 'broad' formation", but I'll bet I've seen it done.

Multiple cav charges work well, but you cant do it to standing spears. It works best when the enemy turns to face you, you back off, and then he turns around thinking your cav is leaving. The cav can turn back faster and catch him in the back.

Again, although micromanaging and approaching a more arcade-like game, this is a valid technique imho and it can be countered if the enemy is paying attention. Cavalry is and should be important. If enemy has no cav that is his problem.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

well knights should steamroll over arbalesters but h3 arbalesters put on hold and hold formation with a braoder line stands very well, test it...

[jurozaemon]

Hi all I play under the screen name Archimedes. Havn't really played totalwar much since shogun 1.02 but have found myself addicted to MTW multi. Anyway to the topic- I'm not sure I fully understand you Magyar is the main problem with this tactic that it can be achieved with arbalesters? I don't see envelopment as being a problem as long as it is done with good melee units, the enemy should adjust his lines to match your front IMO to avoid taking the morale hit from being enveloped or have good flankers on hand to hit your thin lines. As for arbs yes i feel they should actually be the worst H2H unit, even poorer than regular archers. They are carrying a huge bulky shield and handheld ballistae. If they had extremely poor melee stats so that they would still get run over by knights even at valor 4 I think things could be evened out a little. That being said I'm really glad you guys are dedicated enough to the game to try to work these things out I'm quickly becoming a regular player and would love to see this game have some longevity. -ARCHIMEDES

[tootee]

Yes the v3 arbalestor being able to hold-off a cav charge for some time is unrealistic, but gamefun wise I dont think it rob much away *though the historical-accurate gamers may argue otherwise*. Lesser valor arbalestor will still break under cav pressure fast. So the tactics to counter this v3 arbalestor is not to charge in the cav impediously *spelling*, check out the valor, and weaken it 1st before attempting to rout it with a cav charge.

Of course I dont mind the arbalestor stats (or feature) changed to make it more realistic.

[EDIT: Added last pt]

[Dionysus9]

I think the problem with arbs and handgunners holding against charging knights has more to do with the high defensive/morale and cheap cost.

Any unit with Armor3 should have very slow speed. Armor should add weight, turn time, fatigue, etc. It doesnt seem to slow down these units much. It should slow down reload time...

If a warhorse hits you at full tilt you're not going to be loading any arbs anytime soon--plate mail or not.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i dont think we are able to change the stats without getting onnslippery ice to give the knights their breaking power.

if i remember well from an old interview that the devs tried to make it possible to break enemy lines, and get rid of teh socalled "rubber band" between soldiers. Maybe i am mistaken.

[Dionysus9]

Yeah, Khan, the devs gave cav a better chance to "push back" a defending man during its charge. That helps a little bit and it tears the crap out of archers--but it doesn't do anything to solve this problem.

The problem is that high valor handgunners/arbalesters/arques are able to stand up to cavalry charges. I don't think this is necessarily a hold/hold problem, I think arbs and handgunners are too cheap to upgrade and they have too high of a base defensive value. These are problems we can change in the stats.

Since the defensive value is probably too high and they are cheap to upgrade, they REALLY stick like glue when they are in hold/hold. Handgunners and Arques have base defense of 3. Arbalesters (both pavise and normal) have base defense of 2. They all have 0 honor.

Compare these figures to archers--Archers have -2 defense and -1 honor. Archers run like they should when they get slammed by cavalry. The other ranged units dont.

I don't see why an arbalester, a handgunner, or a arquebusier should be any better at hand to hand combat (defense) than an archer. They should all have similar defensive values. If we want to make gunners a [/I]bit[I] more resilient, then they should have a defensive value of 1, max, imho. For godsake, Alan Cav have a defense of 1. Handgunners have defense of 3 (same value as Ghulam Cav&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. This is crazy.

I haven't tested out any mods to the stats, but I think we should look into decreasing ranged units defense.

[Orda Khan]

Sigh.....It's a bit like those old honoured up muskets http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

.........Orda

[MagyarKhans Cham]

well not seen Ljohn in here so he will be pondering on better code for the add on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[MagyarKhans Cham]

btw we didnt tested it, but somethimes it feels like repeated quickclicking of a unit to his hth combat anniversary gives a little advantage as well. is that true?

[Dionysus9]

I think it might, but only if your unit is already engaged somewhere. If you quick-click the enemy several times your unit disengages faster and turns around to meet the enemy. This sometimes takes several clicks to convince them they need to stop chasing routers and charge a different enemy unit.

So if you can get them to turn around fast and charge the enemy, more of them will be at charge speed when they hit him. More will be facing the enemy and the unit will be more ordered. This gives a small advatage.

[baz]

i am a little unclear to the original description of the tactic?

are you saying that you believe that repeated clicking makes the unit more powerfull? (like the charge bonus is being repeated or something?)

[MagyarKhans Cham]

strange how fast devs find the start of teh fact sheet in a few hours and defend their points and repeated questions arent being adressed.