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MagyarKhans Cham
11-24-2002, 04:22
Copied from teh factfinding sheet
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201/web-wolves/wolves-facts.htm
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1) Increase of valor during a battle

Its possible for units who are already very strong at valour 0 (knights) that with some sowrd-upgrades they gain 3 or 4 valour during battles.

A valour 0 Chivalric knight (stats: Mor: 8 Att: 5 Def: 5 Arm: 7.5) costs: 656 florins
A valour 0 knight with 1 sword-upgrade (stats: Mor: 8 Att: 6 Def: 5 Arm: 7.5) costs: 864 florins

These units can gain valour rapidly during battle and becoming valour 3 easy:
A valour 3 knight (stats: Mor: 14 Att: 8 Def: 8 Arm: 7.5) costs: 3194 florins
A valour 3 knight with 1 sword-upgrade (stats: Mor: 14 Att: 9 Def: 8 Arm: 7.5) costs: 4248 florins

So, if you buy 3 units of knights in your army and use them not too early but
just after the major clash and let them beat the more weaker enemy-units first they will become very very strong.
Too strong.
Armies worth of 15k can become an army of 25k very easy.

Our proposal is, not to let units gain valour during the battle.

longjohn2
11-24-2002, 05:03
Well first off a unit of 16 650f units is only going to cost 10000.
More importantly to go to valour 3 from 0, requires making 4 kills. Now given that you count less kills for fighting lower valour men, and less for killing routers, in practice a unit needs to kill 8 times or more its own number to achieve this. Possible with one unit maybe, somewhat unlikely with a whole army.

You can gain some advantage by getting a valour 0 unit upgraded to 1 during battle, but beyond that I think it's pretty tough to get a whole unit upgraded.

I thought valour 0 units were so bad that no-one plays with them anyway.

MagyarKhans Cham
11-24-2002, 05:09
valour 0 heavy cav/knights are common.

btw i dont understand a small part of your post. u say u get less valour increase when u kill routing or less valoured troops? if so.. does it eman u get more bonus killing higher valoured troops? if so... than h0 knights are very effective.

if not, then i dont understand the part of 4 and 8 kills.

seems we must convince u with soem replay files. and i challenge people to bring up logfiles/replay files of increased knights.

AMPage
11-24-2002, 05:21
Hmm, i honestly don't mind units gaining valor during a battle. It is like a reward for killing/capturing units. For an example it may seem useless to buy a V1 chivalric knight when you can get a V0 one for less that will upgrade in valor when use right in battle. At the start of the game that extra 1 valor can make a difference, maybe not always worth it, but you never know.

Maybe they should increase the amount of kills needed to be made to gain valor. I guess it would be ok for units to not gain valor in multi, i dunno.

It is kind of senseless when i'm playing in a 15k game and picking my army i have a couple or a lot of V0 troops that will do me just fine, that i don't need to spend an extra 300+florins just for 1 extra valor. So, sometimes i'm just throwing the extra florins on whatever, cause it dosn't matter, they will do me just fine the same V0 or V1. This is why i wish we could spend those extra florins on reinforcements or upgrading cost less and you could use florins more evenly.

CBR
11-24-2002, 05:36
Well in SP it might be nice although the effect could be after the battle and not during it. But in mp a big NO. Just looked at the last few screenshots. Half the knights went up 2..even had one with 3 units gaining 3 valour (yes lots of kills ofc and not often that happens) The other half was sucked into a hard fight and didnt get many kills or got slaughtered.

One chiv knight gained 2 valour killing/capturing 42 men and losing 17. Must have been against some high valour enemies then.

CBR

longjohn2
11-24-2002, 05:53
I can't remember all the details, but you may well get extra valour for killing higher valour guys. Of course that they're somewhat harder to kill. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

In CBR's example, the knights must have fought some tough opposition to get that much valour with so few kills. However, there's only half a unit left, and they must inevitably be pretty tired, so it's doubtful that they're actually worth more than they were to start with.

MagyarKhans Cham
11-24-2002, 14:16
well it would be better to play 5000-6000 flroins battles so u must harder think where to spent your last 300 florins on. but for 5k battles the morale system need to be upgraded dramatically. morale +4 compared to v1.1

CBR
11-24-2002, 16:22
Well thats what Im working on at the moment. Giving a general morale boost of +4 to all units and changing some of the unitcosts and a few stats. Im aiming at 4k-6k battles.

It might be drastic changes to some though. Should be finished in a few days.

CBR

MagyarKhans Cham
11-25-2002, 01:37
without concentrating on it our khan managed to have several knights at valour 2, 3 not seen yet

Kraxis
11-25-2002, 15:44
Ok... I think it is time for a medium player to join in here.

I have player several battles where I have not increased the Valour of my knights/heavy cav. And eventhough I have managed to do basically what is explained I have not been able to get my knight out with more than V2 in any case and they have been rather weak, not worth more than V0 fresh knights. Much like LJ said.
It might work for people who specialize in it or are simply very good. But even in the MP community I think so good players are a minority. I think it basically comes down to skill, and well that would have desided the battle anyway just with another factor instead of the knights.

Longjohn, if I have a unit of V0 Lancers charge and kill heaps of V4 Peasants I can expect I good jump of Valour? Or is this dependant on quality and status (Elite) too?

Dionysus9
11-25-2002, 22:40
Why not have an option to allow valor increase or to disallow it?

How hard would that be?
(I dont have any idea).

baz
11-28-2002, 07:55
I also have tried, and not been too successful:( i got to v3 couple times but my troops had seen their best days if you know what i mean, you reckon you could give us something to watch magy?

id be very interested to see this...

MagyarKhans Cham
11-28-2002, 16:50
use the logfilereader perhaps i musts ee myself i it records honour after battles.

Swoosh So
12-02-2002, 15:57
Longjohn i agree in a way but if a hcavalry unit kills a high valor archer its not that difficult http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Swooooooshooooooooowl