View Full Version : Creative Assembly Bionic Handgunners in Multi-Player
Hey Guys,
Take some handgunners. Top up the valour, reinforce the armour, and watch them route Order Footsoldiers in hand to hand combat in M.P.
Something seems wrong with this picture. Is it possible that the Handgunners are carrying the "weapons cause fear" bonus into hand to hand combat?
There's something not right about a bunch of Handgunners pistol whipping Order Footsoldiers all the way accross the map.
What do you think? Any similar experiences?
Azrael http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
1dread1lahll
11-23-2002, 16:46
Spears suffered a bit to much in their devaluation post patch...
Seems like a critical issue
Any of the development team read these boards?
We need your attention here
solypsist
11-23-2002, 17:47
here's a chance to invade the Jousting Field
and away it goes
well, the stats of the handgunner are pretty good.
till now i didnt used it and i didnt saw it till yet...so i keeped it secret...but well...
i said it months ago, this bonusses kill this game
yes, the handgunners are good and they are cheap and the pgrades are cheap as well, like for all missles
We need fast a patch, there are much more problems...
koc
MagyarKhans Cham
11-23-2002, 19:10
Orlok Koc maybe its better to bring all our findings into teh open and play otehr games till its patched. dont u think?
all together i say, yes.
i realy love this game but actual it went to a 2D arcade game, where it isnt important to move ur army well or even needs some skill, all what i see is...get some good units use some of the bugs and spoil the whole game....
hills jeezus, what are hills....???? its already a 2D game, i win uphill so easy, that shouldnt be possible... so yes. im bored of this game and the Ego-boys who do nothing as push theyr little Ego´s.
im just tired to see, that now start some peoples to realize what i said months ago
but well, guys do what the devs say, go online and play the game with valour 0 units, this is what it was made for http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
thats a complet laught
at least the SP are happy and they will still play in 4 months.....oops, shit....than is the add-on out and they get again money from U.
pffffffffffff
hehe
koc
PS: borroed gettysburg a friend, i visit him this evening
MagyarKhans Cham
11-23-2002, 19:27
can u still put some little energy in our Khans facts page before it gets launched?
longjohn2
11-24-2002, 03:18
Handgunners use the earliest of sort of firearm. What they have is a six inch barrel mounted on a long stick. As you'll all have noticed they don't shoot very well. This meant that they had to get in close to get a shot off, and so had to be able to look after themselves in combat. As decent swordsmen they'll have a good chance of defeating spearmen, but are vulnerable to cavalry.
Just because gun units were poor in combat in STW doesn't mean they have to be in MTW.
They don't cause fear just by being in hand to hand combat, but if they loose off a round before charging, the fear effect of this will last for a while
MagyarKhans Cham
11-24-2002, 03:48
test h4 handgunners vs h3 chiv sergeants
let them shoot one time and let them fight, u will be suprised
High valor handgunners (v3, v4) are effective in close combat. They can hold on their own when charged by foot-troops with their high combined melee and defend bonus, as well as high morale. My handgunners at v3 only start to break at 12 men in one battle, but it had been effective in holding up some enemy, as well as one blast rout a weaken enemy due to the morale effect I think. Best used in hold ground and hold formation. However they kill too slowly IMO.
MagyarKhans Cham
11-24-2002, 05:13
well i expect some balance in unitcosts. and i personally better face an handgunner with a out-of-order gun than a trained soldier.
Well handgunners are really just some mean h2h fighters in disguise. Dont let the shortranged gun fool you...firing a gun is just their hobby heh
They cost only 175 and even work as a 105 florin unit when you buy valour upgrades. That makes them damn good..too good if you ask me.
CBR
ShadesWolf
11-24-2002, 17:51
A very interesting point guys......
Compare the handgunner to any other swordsmen and it is very close.
Byzantine Infantry
Feudal men-at-arms
Chivalric men-at-arms
feudal foot knights
Gothic foot knights
Hospitaller foot knights
http://www.totalwarassembly.com/waracademy.cfm
It is therefore understandable when you add higher valour weapons and armour they are so good.
The only question is are they too cheap.
Dionysus9
11-24-2002, 23:12
Ranged Unit upgrades are too inexpensive.
V2 Pavise Arbs in hold/hold will stand and fight Lancers for a long time. This is without armor upgrades. Lancers should RUN OVER pavise arbs...regardless if the arbs are v4 w/ 3armor. A man with a puny shield and no spear would get mowed down by a mounted armored knight with a lance and warhorse.
The Bionic Handgunners are just rediculous. I invite longjohn to try a game against UglyElmo's patented all missile army. He uses v4 gunners w/ 2 armor, and they will easily stop a v2 Pronoi Allegion charge. That is some crazy value for your money, and highly unrealistic. Handgunners are more cost effective than spears for stopping cavalry now--this is crazy.
Just because they carry primitive guns does not mean they have to be poor at hth fighting. When i see handgunners i immediately look at them as hth units which can shoot (wildly and poorly) if the need arises.
Treat these guys as swordsmen and not missile units as they are effective as the former and poor as the latter.
This isn't STW folks.
Dionysus9
11-25-2002, 00:27
If they are swordsmen then how come they are given a discount on upgrades like ranged units?
If they are really just swordsmen with pop-guns, then we need to make their upgrade cost as high as a swordsmen's.
Ranged units enjoy a decrease in upgrade costs. Handgunners enjoy this decrease as well as swordsmen-like combat abilities. This is, in my opinion, a problem.
MagyarKhans Cham
11-25-2002, 01:35
well some will say soon, that gunners suffer in rain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
LittleGrizzly
11-25-2002, 03:06
ok how many times do u need to say they need to hold their own in h2h yes i agree they do but theres a difference between holding your own and slaughtering even cav and swordsmen and on the cheap as well
Quote[/b] (LittleGrizzly @ Nov. 25 2002,04:06)]ok how many times do u need to say they need to hold their own in h2h yes i agree they do but theres a difference between holding your own and slaughtering even cav and swordsmen and on the cheap as well
I wouldnt say they slaughter the cav or swordmen, but they can hold at high valor, and and scare off the enemy with an effective blast after holding for some period *if they can manage to let if off*. It shouldnt be too much of a problem if thats what CA designed them to be. But I too feel that they shouldnt be given the discounted upgrade path if they are to be considered 75% swordmen *btw I think their upgrade path is steeper than other range units, e.g. arquebus is so much cheaper at V4 though they start at 175 florins*
Yes arquebus has a reduction of 120 florins while handguns only has 70.
CBR
Hmm
Handgunner V4 W1 1236 florins: melee 6 defense 11 honour 12
Arquebusier V4 W3 1197 florins: melee 6 defense 11 honour 8
Chiv MAA V3 W0 1229 florins: melee 7 defense 11 honour 10
Its late but I think the numbers are correct. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
The Chiv MAA has one higher missile def because of shield
Ofc there are other combinations..
CBR
I think the figures are wrong. If my memory serves me, at your specs F1 should report
Handgunners with melee 6 + defend 7.
Arquebusier with melee 6 + defend 7.
CMAA with melee 7 + defend 7.
Yes and then add armor to the F1 values... they all have armor 4.
CBR
Yes CBR, but remember the inherent defensive value of Armous is already in the stats. What you see is what you get from the F1 (from the front).
Crandaeolon
11-25-2002, 16:58
I believe Kraxis is correct. The unit's armour rating is not added to melee defense. Armour is for missile defense only.
Shields, other than Pavises, give a bonus to both melee defense and armour rating. Pavises _only_ boost armour rating, i.e. missile defense, and are useless in melee. (Well, actually pavises protect the backs of the men in melee, IIRC.)
DOH
Yes youre right..I didnt check the F1 stats, apparently just added everything I saw without bothering to think..oh well we talked about lack of sleep didnt we? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
CBR
Dionysus9
11-25-2002, 20:22
You are right, I wasn't thinking either-- armor is for ranged protection only.
So the real problem, as I see it, with handgunners is their high defensive stats. Are they swordsmen with hanguns? Or handgunners with swords?
How can you stop a lancer charge with a short sword? I know we are sacrificing some realism to multiplayer, but this is rediculous.
ElmarkOFear
11-26-2002, 08:57
Dionysus: My question is: Why are you using the way overpowered Lancer units anyway if you are worried about units being overpowered for the cost? hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I had to get a shot in here since I am the one who began using this unit to great effect. I had seen in the forums when the game first came out that everyone thought handgunner units were useless. I wanted to prove otherwise, so I found out how to use them and what val and upgrades to give them. I also heard that missile units in general were useless, so I put together an all missile army that will beat most other armies. Has anyone tried the naptha units? To some these would appear way overpowered too if they saw Polar or myself use them in their armies. Then there are the Byzantine Infantry units, which are now the overpowered infantry unit, before that it was the feudal men at arms units. A game like this is going to be hard to balance cost-wise, if not impossible. You can make arrow units stronger, you can make cav less strong, you can increase spears up to useful levels, but unfortunately, I fear, there will always be the most cost efficient overpowering army to be found. This is due to the many factions with many different units. In STW and MI everyone had the same choice of units which balanced things out somewhat. Here we do not have that luxury. But then again, I like the challenge of finding armies to beat these super armies. That is what makes this game fun for me. I experiment with different armies and enjoy finding little gems like the lowly handgunner units. When I hear an opponent say; "How the heck did those handgunner units beat my chivalric sergeants?" it makes me smile. I like the ability to surprise the enemy by upgrading a unit that normally would not be able to beat his unit. Unpredictability is what makes the game fun.
Dionysus9
11-26-2002, 09:07
Im just using lancers as an example because your gunners seem to be a little skittish around them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I use naptha a lot. V2 will do just fine. Save them up until the last 3/4 of the battle. Another good use of naptha.
Have a staggered line of battle with naptha in the gap:
enemy enemy
--------------------------
you you naptha-> enemy enemy
-----------------------------
you you you
That enemy by the naptha goes bye-bye http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
But my point is really only this--shouldn't we try to make some sense of the imbalances at least? Why would a handgunner be so much better at defending than an archer? It doesn't make much sense, even if balances some weaker factions like the almos.
You kicked some serious ass with your pistol whippers--I'd like to see you make some use of peasants. Handguns are virtually worthless as ranged troops...peasants are just virtually useless.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
ElmarkOFear
11-26-2002, 09:14
I am still working on the peasant problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Maybe at valour 345 and wep 532 and arm 985, they might become useful LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Dionysus9
11-26-2002, 09:27
Lol--give em a camel to ride around on...then they scare the crap out of heavy cav. Go figure.
Swoosh So
12-02-2002, 15:45
Whats really going to rock the boat is that longbowmen get armour piercing bonuses in hth combat hehe
Swooooooooooshooooooooooooooowl
MagyarKhans Cham
12-03-2002, 01:44
well self exploding napthas are close to handbomb carrying goblins
i was playing today and experienced one unit of arbs v2 rout 2 ffk (still had 35 men+) to me this was pretty disapointing especially as they attacked from the rear of the arbs...i got to start saving replays http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
I have noticed in recent multiplayer games, peasants are used. I don't know if people experiment with them (thinking about ashirush) or there is a new trend I dont know about.
Annie
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