Creative Assembly FACT FINDING SHEET 1: rank bonusses [Archive]

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 04:20

ok on request, Orlok kocmoc be gentle with me if u read it....
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copy from teh factfinding sheet
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201/web-wolves/wolves-facts.htm
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2) Rank bonus subject to flankbonus

Its possible for units who are depending on rank-support bonusses that they will loose against teh same units who are spread out in one long line.

Chivalric sergeants V3 (stats: Mor: 6 Att: 2(3)+ Def: 8(12)+ Arm:5&#036http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif costs: 1474 florins.

Download the replayfile here of test 1
Flat map, costum battle, normal level. In this replay file sergeants are put on charge mode.
Download the replayfile here of test 2
Flat map, costum battle, normal level. In this replay file sergeants are put on hold mode.

What u will see is several times 2-3 units clashing where the unit who are spread out in a long line beat the more compact unit.
Units in such a long line spread out are really unrealistic and even looks worse on the battlefield. Units who rely on ranks should be effective.

Our proposal is, make sure that units in one long line are not that strong as they are now.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 04:23

btw there is more to come and the replay files are of costum battles but i havesoem online tests as well, not linked yet.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 04:28

also try this

40 h0 chiv knights charging 60 h2 arba

knight in 5 ranks and arba in 2 ranks

vs

40 h0 chiv knights charging 60 h2 arba

knight in 1 rank and arba in 3 ranks

Erado San

11-24-2002, 04:29

Looking good... Keep them coming.

longjohn2

11-24-2002, 04:39

So are you really finding that units drawn up in one long line are problem. They're very unweildy and subject to being attacked by several enemy, which'll likely rout them double quick.
Try your 1 deep line against a line of 8 spear units, and see if they're still effective.

tootee

11-24-2002, 04:42

Do you mean that the flank bonuses are more than the rank bonus?

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 04:48

u challenging us longjohn?

what u say is 1 units slot versus 8 unitsslots... which leaves us 7 unitslots for supporting and serious flanking.

this example shows u teh biggest advantage u can get. on smaller scale u can try 3 vs 5 ranks....

than u wil still notice men flanking the smaller unit and gaining somehow a bigger bonus than the unit who relies on rankbonusses.

well it will probably just me, i just expected more from rankbonusses.

u should play amp, he will show u an army of knights, all in one long line after each other in loose formation.... that will bring u to another gamemechanisme for your next version.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 04:52

question to longjohn:

when a few soldiers manage it to the flank, does teh whole unit get the bonus? or must there be a certain amount of soldiers on teh flank?

CBR

11-24-2002, 04:58

Flankbonus should never be more than the rankbonus. Yes they might be difficult to maneuver but if your heading is straight forward anyway that doesnt matter much.

Depth equals staying power of a unit or it should be that way.

CBR

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 05:02

well in most wargames flankbonusses equals rankbonusses, in some games ranks are veven neglected if a full flank charge is fullfilled. but then i am talking about a full unit charging in to the enemies rank and not about lapping around of some soldiers.

we are talking here about these lapping around bonusses which seem to count as flankbonusses. maybe the best workaround will be to have a max width of every unit type.

longjohn2

11-24-2002, 05:39

All bonuses, both flank and rank are decided at the individual man level. So men lapping round or charging the the flank of a unit, don't directly affect the rank bonuses of men in the middle of the line.
However, what can happen is that men on the flank get pushed back into the formation disrupting it further along.

Cavalry charging in successive thin lines started to become common practise around the end of the period covered in Medieval.

barocca

11-24-2002, 05:53

Magyar's Cham is correct when he points out that spreading your troops into longer lines will make them more effective,

i frequently field small units spread out wide and knock over large units relying on rank bonuses,

as i understand it the flank penalty should only apply to each man seperately,
BUT
if one man gets around the flank does that affect every single enemy man whose flank he threatens?
OR
does that one man affect the entire units flank threat check?
(EDIT - longjohn answered this while i was typing - see above)

LongJohn,
you must remember in a 1v1 we have 16 units and our opponent has 16 units, keep your army together and each unit must be attacked,
spreading your units out wide forces your opponent to risk envelopement if he double teams any of your units, ((you need to counter one on one)),
and if your units are 4/5 ranks deep, and your opponents units are all spread out wide/thin you either match his deployment, or engage and get enveloped.

Simply attacking a line of wide spread units with ranked units will lose you the batle quick smart
- Mith did that to me 3 out of 3 where i did not match his wide deployment.

The time my men stayed before routing leads me to think that one man getting into a flanking position has an effect on the entire unit.

Please correct us if we are wrong.
(EDIT - longjohn answered this while i was typing - see above) We are apparently worng - it is the disruption of the formation that has an impact on the effectiveness of the formation.

barocca

11-24-2002, 06:01

LongJohn,

i would like a clarification on one point though,

as i understand it the flank penalty should only apply to each man seperately,
BUT
if one man gets around the flank does that affect every single enemy man whose flank he threatens?
and if so what is the range of this influence?
OR
does it only effect the man he attacks from the flank?

AMPage

11-24-2002, 06:04

The thin line cavalry charge works well, when you can rout the enemy with the charge and wrapping around the flanks. In very high florin games this dosn't work as good, since units will hold longer being stronger and have more moral. The cavalry will slowly die off if you can't get the units to rout, being as it is they are only 40 unit size and mostly up against 60-100 unit sizes.

Magy,
You like that nice loose formation cavalry rush of mine? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Well most players expect that from me now and are prepared for it. I love it when i do an all cavalry rush and allies run to aid. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Most people hate me when i do this and find it boring to play like that.I guess i can understand why, but i find it boring to play balanced every game i gotta spice things up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

baz

11-24-2002, 11:32

now the cats out the bag i have seen Justy use similar tactics back in MI, running at the guns with long line in loose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Erado San

11-24-2002, 12:52

I understand that the rank bonuses and flank bonuses and whatever bonuses need to be 'balanced' in some ways. If this is an issue, there always needs to be attention for that.

But MTW already has an answer to the long line tactics... Wedgies. Facing a long stretched line with a block is not the best tactics. I would (and have used this with good effect) switch the block unit into a wedge and charge. There's a good chance the long line unit will break. A broken unit has lost formation and is dead meat in a lot of situations.

A problem here is that while the block unit is transforming into a wedge they count as lost formation as well. I don't know exactly how it works here with bonuses and penalties. I think this is a valid tactics to use though, and I would like to see two things:

1 - The transition should be made faster, so the period the unit counts as 'lost formation' would be shorter, OR

2 - The men in the front rows of the wedge, as soon they have formed the frontal point of the wedge, should count as in formation while the other men are still forming. That way at least at the point of impact the wedge bonus should apply, which would make breaking the long line a bit easier.

This reminds me of a tactics I used with great effect in MI/WE with the 1.02 stats. Many people complained about gun heavy armies. They were so easy to beat with one or two units of Battlefield Ninjas though...
Line up your army and advance the BN slightly off centre. Put CAV on the flanks, and infantry in the centre. Have one or two units of guns on the other flank, protected by one or two units. Since the enemy is waiting for you, protection was not such a big issue. Advance the army to just outside firing range, then set the BN loose at the centre of the gun lines. They demolish at least one unit and these would rout. Charge the next gun unit and they are likely to rout as well. The effect of this would be that all gun units in the neighborhood are vulnerable to mass routing. Charge in the cavalry, make the infantry catch spear units, move in your own guns and let them have a go at everything that moves (secondary kills are devestating) and the whole gun heavy army is dead meat.

I get the feeling that this long line tactics might well be as vulnerable. Haven't tried the wedges against them online, because I have not met an army like that online.

But again, if this really is a problem, then finetuning the bonuses might be an answer, although there are so many different situations where they apply that while you finetune this issue, that might open up another problem area. I feel that optimising the wedge, which appears to be the primary tactics against long lines, would be a more successful way to deal with this.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 13:57

amp u do well at showing whats wrong with teh mechanics and ofcourse its fun for u or whoever who discovers something but u will be bored pretty quick yourself if everyone uses everything to get maximum bonusses and we all end up in long thin lines lumbering around.

i expect not 1 army of knights in loose formation to beat 2 other armies, even my ally moved a little bad.

Dionysus9

11-24-2002, 23:21

I would like to thank the Wolves for bringing these issues to the forefront, and the .ORG for giving us a forum to discuss them

All of the imbalance issues that the Wolves are bringing up are worth discussing/fixing. Some/most longtime players are familiar with these issues, so I don't think we are giving much away.

I play abalanced army and I dont try to make use of these quirks, unless of course I am facing someone else who is But for the long term playability of MP MTW I think we need to tweek these issues.

tootee

11-25-2002, 05:41

I agree with Magy that the games will grow boring when most employed these long thin lines, but playing mostly 2v2 to 4v4, I dont see thats the trend growing, probably in such games, the players usually looks for fun in coordinating attacks and movement as a whole *maybe in 1v1 this occurs more?*.

Maybe one of the players *like TheViking and AMP* uses such tactics, but to me it didnt spoilt my games yet, and in fact added new challenge. It was a hell of an experience to see AMP lined up his cav in lines, and I prepared to rush from behind to support him, but alas his cav was too fast for my foot-troopers, and they got routed before I got there to support http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif.

But it will be pointless and no fun playing big games playing with 2 such armies.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-25-2002, 10:55

Well i remember we had similar discussions with teh ashi musks rushes. It took just a while until all saw it was more effective than any other tactic. And since most do like to win the most effective tactics will prevail. I admist ashis-musks effectivness were much easier to recognize, so i am sure that it takes a bit longer before every noob knows thin lines are in general more effective. but besides foreseeing a "thin" future it would also be nice that every wargamernoob also undrestand why he lost. he expect his rankbonusses to work well, but they wont.

Orda Khan

11-26-2002, 01:47

Please tell me this ain't so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
A long line in loose will beat the same unit in ranks?
That is totally absurd and if these tactics are employed it will ruin the game. I have seen it. Yes it works. What a shame http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

.........Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Dionysus9

11-26-2002, 09:10

Amp has been exploiting this technique since STW...or MI/WE, at least. His long lines of Nodachi would charge musks and then wrap around entire units....

Did it ruin the game? Nah...it just changes things.

Someone the other day was saying a wedge will cut those long lines in two. I've never really tried it, but it makes sense.

It still takes skill to pull it off, at least.

Orda Khan

11-26-2002, 11:29

Maybe I should have said it will ruin the game for me. I like being able to fight out these mediaeval battles, albeit with armies that may never have met. I don't think a single long line of knights or 3 ranks of arbalesters ever managed to do what we have heard and that sort of deployment, especially on loose (I thought this caused a morale penalty) would never have been adopted.
I guess the only way to guarantee you join a game worth playing is to be selective but I can't see that working for the good of the community. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Sigh, sometimes I wish all these stats were not available for scrutiny. It is nice to win but when it's done through exploiting flaws in the stats, inevitably it's the game that suffers in the end.

.......Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

11-26-2002, 17:23

well orda, its not about stats here but the observation on the field that thin lines are in general more effectiv. the soldiers are tied to each other by a rubber band which hardly can be broken. knights cant rush thru a thin line and effectivly reducing the units value to a very low point.

maybe the quickest solution would be a new statchar liek maxwidth of unit, measured in number of soldiers.

Dionysus9

11-26-2002, 19:02

Yes, Orda, loose form causes morale penalties but if the unit is high valor and fresh with low casualties, its morale is high enough that the loose form doesn't make much difference.

I think the problem is that the unit isnt getting morale penalties for being disordered, even when it is clearly disordered (a single line is disordered in my mind). I havent tested this.

Like Khan is saying, if we require a unit to be in a certain size, maxwidth, it might solve this issue.

Puzz3D

11-26-2002, 21:59

The units that get rank bonuses are defensive units. The rank bonus itself is 80% defensive. When that unit is in 20x5 hold formation, it's very vulnerable on the sides. The men in the front row can survive a long time, but they don't kill many enemies. When attacked by the same type unit in 50x2 engage-at-will formation, 60 men of the 50x2 unit will be attacking the sides of this 20x5 unit with a 250% attack bonus, and the men in the 20x5 unit will keep trying to face front since they are in hold.

Why would anyone think that a 20x5 defensive block in hold should win this encounter? It shouldn't. Being flanked is bad. If you're not going to match the enemy's frontage and keep them in front of the block, then get your unit out of hold formation. The matchup against a 50x2 in loose is even worse. There are fewer enemy men to the front and more to the sides. If you keep the 20x5 block in hold, you give up the possibility of getting individual 2 on 1 attacks, and that is better than a single attck with a rank bonus. Nothing says you have to stay in close formation either. You can match loose with loose.

I don't want to see the effectiveness of flanking reduced which would lessen its importance as a tactical maneuver. I don't want to see masses of 2 wide x 50 deep units become an effective arraingement.

With both the 20x5 and the 50x2 in hold it can go either way, but the extra rank bonus the 20x5 gets is in the long run offset by increased fatigue since more of its men are engaged in fighting. V3 Chiv Sgts in hold will fight for 8 minutes. However, it's academic because the unit in 50x2 can always switch to the more advantageous engage-at-will mode and collapse down on the 20x5 unit's undefended flanks.

Using a single unit to envelope the flanks of an enemy unit isn't some kind of broken game mechanics. Suppose you could individually control every man in your unit. Would you command all the men in your unit to stay in front of an enemy block that had clearly exposed flanks? No. You'd send some around to the flanks.

If you place 8 20x5 spear units side by side and engage 8 50x2 stacked spear units of equal frontage, the 20x5 units will win. If you change the spears and make them a more offensive unit, I'm concerned that the game will become more of a staight ahead rushing game than it already is.

Kongamato

11-26-2002, 22:59

Could splicing other units on the sides of the 20X5 formation hold the flanks? Or does the splicing cause more problems?

Puzz3D

11-27-2002, 00:24

You put a good unit on either end of the spear line, and place it set back and to the outside of the end spear. In that position, it "covers" the flank of the end spear so the spear will not suffer any flanking morale penalty, and it's ready to attack and flank any unit that tries to attack the spear's flank.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-27-2002, 00:35

maybe i am wrong but are u comparing "lapping around" with "flanking"?

lapping around shoudl be effective when u have better trained troops, which in that case u can make more soldiers effective. soldiers in teh unit who is lappED around just have to fight more men thats all, without the effect of teh charge in teh case of a flanking Unit. a flanking unit shhould cause fear and effect the targetted unit a lot.

imo there is a difference in lapping around and flanking.

Puzz3D

11-27-2002, 19:26

As I understand it, there are two flanking penalties:

The first is a modest -2 morale penalty and functions at the unit level. You suffer this penalty if the center of an enemy unit is within a certain distance of the center of your unit and is also more than 45 degrees from the direction your unit is facing. A unit who's men are lapping around the sides of your unit does not inflict this penalty since the enemy's center is still inside the 90 degree arc to the front of your unit.

The second is a +5 attack bonus to any man who strikes at the side of another man. This increases to a +7 attack bonus for striking at the rear of another man. If a man is charging, he gets another +2 on top of those bonuses. I don't think that men who are lapping around are still charging since they appear to loose their momentum as they come around.

Units formed up in deep blocks and hold formation are vulnerable on the sides. Rectangles are also vulnerable on each corner due to their geometry. The corner man can always be attacked by two men, and one of those attacks can always be a flank blow. I think the block is designed to be effective if the enemy is kept in front of it. If you could adopt curved unit formations, you wouldn't have those vulnerable corners.

For the most part, I've found blocks work if several units fight together. It's true that lone units in compact blocks do not match up well against units in a wider formation. Due to the relatively low morale of spear units, I don't find it effective to use them alone anyway since they tend to rout easily. One disadvantage of the long thin line is that it can be "flanked" for morale purposes from the front.

It's fine to want a better combat system, but I wouldn't characterize the present system as "broken" just because it doesn't work as well as a better system would work. It's a fairly simple hybrid system with some things determined on the unit level and others on an individual man level. The elastic force holding a unit together is a necessary compromise to make the game playable. Each unit has a center of mass no matter how spead out the men in it become, and all the morale effects are tied to the position and orientation of that center. I've seen units get split in half by another unit. Where is that unit's center? Who is flanking who? The system has limitations beyond which it doesn't work well. One thing I really like about it is that all out mob rushes are easy to defeat. I saw four of them last night, and not a single one worked.

Dionysus9

11-27-2002, 22:02

Yuuki,

You make excellent points, as always, but I think the whole rank bonus system is being revealed as (basically) useless.

In order to "match the frontage" of a 2x50 line shock infantry, you need 2.5 spear units in 5X20. So basically, you need 2.5 spear units to stop one shock unit from "lapping". The attacker can throw 8 shock units in 2x50 at a 16 unit spearwall and tie them up entirely (and get some lapping as well). Meanwhile, he can flank with the other 8 units. How could such a defense be viable? Even if the spears manage to slaughter the 8 units they are facing (which seems plausible if the rank bonuses are any good, and if the attacker has bad flank timing), the spears now have to face another 8 units of fresh shock, plus the rallied first wave. They cant chase but have to stand in the spearwall to retain their defensive advantage.

This assumes 16 spears vs. 16 shock units. I'm still trying to think of ways to beat a single line rush with 16 spears, but I'm not coming up with anything. If 16 spears can't do it with rank bonuses and a purely defensive posture, then it seems like the rank bonuses are relatively worthless. I'm no expert, but I've never been able to make any real use of the rank bonus. It seems more suited to SP where you may very well outnumber the enemy 2.5 to 1.

Anyone up for some testing of 16 spears in hold/hold vs. 16 shock? I'd like to test some of these dynamics. I'm gonna be busy with family this week though........not many heads for Bacchus in the near future.

The only thing that might work is if the attacker has bad flank timing and the spearwall (or parts of it) is able to switch into wedges and slaughter the first wave of shock before the flank can be accomplished. A good attacker shouldnt have this problem. Instead of just throwing 8 shock at the spearwall, he could add another 4 and still have 4 for flanking. If the flankers were set ahead and to the sides of the charging 2x50's, they would complete the flank at the same time the 12 shock hit the wall. I just cant see the spears standing in the face of such an assault.

The fact that it takes 2.5 spears in 5x20 to "match the face" of a single shock unit in 2x50 seems to destroy any benefit (in MP at least) that the rank bonus might give.

I also agree with Magy that lapping around shoulnt give the same bonus as a full flank. The -2 unit-based morale penalty is minor compared to +5 attack just because a few units walk around the edge of a formation. Maybe the hold/hold should be a little more flexible to allow spearman on the edge of the unit to spin to face "lappers". Thats what I want them to do. Just as I want my attackers to lap, I want my defenders to meet them face on when they do. Nobody is going to stand there facing forward with nothing to do while an enemy carves at their side.

Puzz3D

11-28-2002, 01:44

Dion,

It's just the guys who get in a sideswipe who get the +5 attack bonus. The thing about a Chiv Sgt 20x5 vs Chiv Sgt 50x2 is that over 1/2 the men (60) attack the sides of the 20x5 unit. That's a lot of men coming in on the sides. There is an additional +2 attack bonus if you charge into the flank. I guess that's a charge bonus and goes away quickly. It doesn't look to me like the lapping men get that charge bonus. Turning the flank of a spear unit and forcing the men on the end to face to the outside is an advantage since the rank support is disrupted. I think that already happens, but it's possibe the ai switched the unit to engage-at-will after contact and that's why the men on the ends turned to the outside. It was disasterous for the unit which ended up becoming squashed between the attackers pressing in on the two ends. The men in the wide unit who were coming in on the sides had rank bonuses from the men behind them. The lapping unit definitely has the tactical advantage.

Remember that swords beat spears. You don't require wide formations to do that now. The 16 spears facing 16 swords are doomed in a straightup fight without the swords even flanking. Spears at equal florins can still beat cav, but they have to present a solid wall, and you have to deny your flank to the cav. The cav will eat you up if your army becomes disordered.

I definitely think the rank bonus is a trade off. Norrow front, vulnerable sides, unit tires faster than you may expect when fighting, movement is unweildy and rank bonus is progressively lost as the unit takes casualties. I think spears are still a good choice for holding the line against cav and holding long enough against an infantry rush to give you some opportunity to try and flank the attackers with other units. That's where the long thin lines are particularly frustrating because they deny you their flank. However, I've seen these long thin line attacks collapse. Units in very wide formation are difficult to deal with later in a battle when your units may be widely spread out as a result of chasing routers.

I would not be opposed to limiting the width of units to something like 30 men. That would still allow a 60 man ranged unit to form up in a double row. The width of 100 man units is already limited to a little more than 50 men which shows there is a way to limit width. I would be wary of reducing the flank attack bonus unless we understand the full repercussions on gameplay of doing that.

I like to use compact units because they are more maneuverable, and can squeeze through gaps. The trade off is more exposure of those unit's flanks, and a certain amount of bunching up of the men when fighting which could be an inefficiency of combat if what you want is the maximum number of men engaged in actual fighting.

Papewaio

11-28-2002, 01:57

Units were historically vulnerable to any flanking.

This is ancient lore... look at what Alexander the Greats Companions and shield bearers on the exposed right flank were for.

Or how Roman infantry beat Greek Hoplites. Or how the elephants were beaten by flanking.

Infantry had to form squares to defend against cavalry flanking them.

Now the problem in MTW is not that flanking is to powerful. It is either the counter tactics have not evolved yet (although a counter charge of wedge shock may work) or that there is no way of forming a viable defence.

In STW I used to form a bow shape out of my forces and this seemed to counter most unit flanking problems. Also the supporting units (I would be staggered... just imagine the surface of a bike wheel _-_-_ ) could then flank the flanker.

It would be interesting if individual units could form a square (naturally they can't move) that negates any flanking bonuses or at least minimises them.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-28-2002, 02:27

i expect from a nicely squared unit to do that and keep their rankbonusses

Dionysus9

11-28-2002, 03:52

So, are you saying, Yuuki, that you've actually gotten the rank bonus to work for you in MP? I normally play with Spearmen (as opposed to sgts.) so I dont ever notice the rank bonus doing much. I'd expect sgts. to get more use out of it, but I havent ever seen it working in a MP game.

There should be a command which makes the unit a square with men on each side facing outwards. If you then give this unit 1/4 of the rank bonus on each side, I think we'd have something worth calling a "rank bonus." As it stands now, I've never seen anyone able to make it really work. I just keep my spears in lines of 3 and 4 because they cover more frontage....when I try to use them in ranks of 5 they get flanked way too easy.

And another thing that makes "wedging" a thin line more difficult is that my unit tries to attack the center of the enemy unit. I dont want to hit the center usually, I want to hit in the middle of one of the wings. It would be nice if we could tell the attacking unit where we want it to hit the defenders....

baz

11-28-2002, 07:51

i think we need some expert opinion on this to satisfy what actually is the difference in effectiveness between Unit Flanking and Unit Lapping...

all i know is that i have done some 1v1 tests for myself and a unit which looses when in the reconmended number of ranks can get a victory when in ranks of 2 and in engage at will

i did several tests including the units spearmen, feudal sergeants, chiv sergeants and order foot soldiers. In these cases the weaker unit was able to get a victory ultilising these tactics...

On-line i have been unable to mimick these results but im not the best tactician http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Puzz3D

11-28-2002, 17:40

The unit in two ranks is still getting a rank bonus. It's not as though the deep block is getting a rank bonus and the 50x2 thin line is getting none. The rank bonus stops at the 3rd man for spears. I don't use 20x5 blocks of spears. The deepest I go is 25x4, and I only do that to provide a reserve row to make up for casualties. There is no need to go any deeper than what you estimate is required to hold the line during a frontal assault. If your opponent widens his deployment, you have to adjust for that by bringing more units up on the line or reforming the individual units into a wider formation.

My view is that the rank bonus adds to the ability of the unit to fight longer, and as such it combines well with "hold formation" which shifts 2 combat points from attack to defend. You end up with a unit that is very hard to break down from the front, and works as a blocking unit while you do something else with your other units. It provides a stable line around which you can, hopefully, maneuver. If you can't get at your opponent's flank because he is in long lines or backed into a corner, then you have to either win the ranged battle or overpower him straight ahead. Under no circumstances can you afford to let men come lapping around your flanks unopposed.

So far, the players using long lines have not forced me out of using more conventional blocks, but the blocks have to stick together.