Multiplayer, is it dead for the vets? [Archive]

Jemasze Toda

11-23-2002, 22:08

as if it were that easy Koc

A little patience might do wonders sometimes...
I appreciate the hard work and lots of energy you put into creating new stats very much and i have downloaded them and tried them against the CPU. So far i haven't checked them under pressure of a real opponent but next week i will have more time to do so. I also recommended in the ELITE-private forums to use your stats as an alternative to the official 1.1 stats. So did Gazoz.
But it is always the same old thing, dear Koc: People react only slowly to everything new, including me. So it takes time and patience in order to achieve something within a community such as ours.
Real life has some (major i would call it) impact too on the time and lust we all can spare and activate to play MTW or any other game. As it is now i come online most of the days for one or max two hours in order to play a couple of games and i meet many friends and comrades who want to play with me or against me. They haven't downloaded your stats yet and - as horrible as that may sound to your genius - they aren't interested very much in your stats because for their limited playing capability the official one is more than enough They are somewhat content with the current stats and by far more concerned about server-issues and technical problems.
( beware: a slight irony sneeked into these last sentences...)
As a result of that i play the majority of my battles nowadays against or with mates and in order to play with them i have to use the old stats...:eek:
But as with all OPTIONS ( and your stats are certainly no more than an option) it is very nice to have them

My congratulations and many thanks for making them ( No irony here)
It will be nice to use these stats in tournaments and other main events if agreed upon by the participants and/or the hosts.

So a little patience would do you and your mighty Khan good and your constant aggressive moaning and threatening of leaving our community is not really helpful in my eyes.
I am well aware of the importance of the two of you for our community (who more than me?) but -to be honest- i am somewhat tired of this you all know nothing while we are the gods-attitude you too often express here and elsewhere.
And don't tell me that this is a result of a language misunderstanding only...it isn't.
How can you expect so many people to hurry and participate in your (well-done) stats-project when you on the other hand continuously ridicule their playing ability and craftmanship? Wake up Koc

Also the community needs to settle down first a bit from the uproar of the sad Tera-affair...maybe it is not able to do so and it can't recover but still your aggressiveness won't help to let it recover...

Continue to do your great work with the stats but don't feel "personally" offended when it will take time to implement them into the community and MOST IMPORTANTLY if they continue to be only an option out of other options.

You see, i must love you guys a bit still, otherwise i wouldn't write so many useless words here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Patience young grasshopper http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

yours Jemasze alias TheFool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

also known as ELITEofManstein http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Damn, i played three battles today and i lost them all There are days were you should stay in bed....

TosaInu

11-23-2002, 22:10

Konnichiwa Kocmoc san,

First off: no one is a bloody noob. No one.

Second point. You hit the nail on the head when you say 'vets' and vets. There is simply not such a thing as THE MP player. Different skills, different interest, different preferences. Not superior and inferior, but different.

You are calling for 1 stat, 1 united and by all agreed upon stat.
Your argument, and/or that of others, is that more than 1 stat will split the community. That's simply not true, on the contrary.

I've explained this before and I will do so again. MTW offers over 400 maps, 3 eras, 4 seasons, 4 'architectural'
terraintypes, it's possible to host any game between some 150 and 99,999 florins, 1v1, 2v2, 1v7 etc, morale on/off, fatigue on/off, unlimited ammo on/off, restricted camera on/off. Chance is that all those 'modes' includes options I like and you don't. Yet, I can play the games I like and you can play the games you like. Chance is even that we meet each other in the foyer and decide to play a game. Either by using settings I don't like, you don't like, we both don't or do like. But we play, because we both want to play.

In what view is a stat different from that? You can load one into memory and play, a process of less than 10 seconds. I prefered to play 1.03 3v3 games on hilly maps (8k) in STW. But I happily swapped to 1.02 to play a 10K 2v2 on iron board with DRB. I didn't like any of those settings, but I liked to play a game with DRB and another one after that.

After we played a few games, DRB allied with someone else and I swapped back to 1.03 and played the settings I like (more) with other friends.

CA has made this even better in MTW (so I also reject the argument that CA only thinks about SP), the stats can do more, there's a pre-battle CRC to make sure everyone has the proper stat loaded and there's a commandline that forces a stat to reload into memory (a patch improvement ).

You may have noticed the word friends. You are not playing alone, but with other humans. All having different views on what's fun and fair. You can't expect that they agree on everything with you, they are in the same foyer: that's were the similairities stop. You may find players that have the same interest as you, it's easy to decide what and where to play then. You may also find players with very different 'needs', you can either ignore them and do your own thing or play a game with them. It can be completely different from your view, but it can be great fun nevertheless. I recall a weird game (weird since it was not historical and had nothing to do with balance) with someone, but I enjoyed it very much. And it was mutual.

If you don't want 'fun'/different games: that's your right. It's also 'our' right to play the games we like.

Back to community splitting. If a game can be played in only one fixed way, the chance is that people won't like it at all and just leave. If a game offers options, it will attract people. You'll mostly play the settings you like, but you can also decide to play something completely different because a friend plays that way. More people attract more people. Look at a restaurant: 'no one' enters one that's empty. But people are gladly waiting for 1 hour to enter one that's full and cosy. Chance is that the owner will build a larger restaurant and hire more personel. More people means a bigger chance that you'll meet people who have the same interest in a MP game as you do. More than one stat doesn't split the community (not in the doom scenario some have in mind) but make it prosper.

SP. Some MP players talk degenerative about SP players. I even get the idea that some try to say: 'forget about SP CA, people, forget about SP' First off, SP players are not inferior. And the SP game is certainly not bad. It's a pity that it doesn't offer optional season turns (who said that SP gets everything?), but I expect that it will still be played for 5 years after today.

You may not like this, but you can better hope it does. You're talking about money as a bad thing. Do realise that money is required to make anything. Money doesn't come from MP gamers (not at this stage). Let there be 1,000 MP players (cough cough), $40,- a copy. $40,000 might be enough to create Pong 3D. Granted, MP isn't perfect. But it's pretty good. And we have it because SP gamers buy this game.

If you compare the original STW that's released in may 2000 and MTW with patch 1.1, then there's a huge improvement. Not perfect, it doesn't offer everything you and I would like to see, but it's improved.

You can either mock about everything you don't have and kick the balls of anyone who doesn't agree with you (with the risk that either you'll be the only one left in the foyer or that fans will associate this game with so much negative hassle that TW titles will cease to excist), or you use what you have, try to make the best of it and provide constructive feed-back in these forums (I'm sure that the developers are reading and will pick things up to improve the next title).

I used your name as if I were adressing you Kocmoc, but this applies to all MP players.

-----------------------
TosaInu
A MP 'vet' and occasional SP gamer.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-23-2002, 22:32

well jemasze without further knowledge of teh legal bugs u might keep losing games. but if u once notice them u will hardly loose a game, unless u played against someone with similar knowledge or unless u play with a much more weaker army.

kocgod and our magyar-sitting cloud-khan are collecting these things and posting them on a page on teh web for all too view. and lets hope we dont get accused of spoiling teh game for many. lets hope it will help teh devs in making a better game for the next release.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-23-2002, 22:53

maybe yr right jemasze http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif and must we conclude that some of us bypassed the level needed to have fun with this game, we reached the inner-complex of the mechanics and thereby

i heard u had some nice games indeed tonight, its reported in our clans history. perhaps u want a save game of the replay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . it wasnt our khan or kocmoc, that i can tell you. and i can tell you that your opponent didnt use all teh knowledge he possessed. but wasnt it hurtfull to see your horsearchers loose to arbalesters when they charged them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

my Khan told me that u like those kind of losses and u will try to find a new way to beat such a player. but what if these players dont come online? and after that u start winning 95% of your games if u approach them in a competitive way? you will be bored as well... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Jemasze Toda

11-23-2002, 23:01

well, Mag i lost these games not because of some mysterious lack of knowlegde about "legal bugs" but because in the first game i played really ugly ( wasn't yet awake...), the rematch against the same vet was unbelievable close when my gen died and my troops routed and in the second my ally and me got overwhelmed by JerichoPrimes rolling Thunder Heavy Cav... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif ahh and not because the Cav is unbeatable but because the two of us didn't work together well enough...

yet i of course understand that a WELL-LED powerful army is able to beat almost everything...but was that really different in STW?

...hehe and i can't hold myself: Koc was also complaining hard about the imbalance of this game when he lost the last 4 games or so in a row against Fooly baby... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nah, don't get me wrong, despite my little irony and small attacks...i have much respect for you, Mag and even young Kocmoc down in the god's lands... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

yours Jemasze alias TheFool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 00:28

well if u jpoin koc next time tell him who ur and ask him to play in "godmode". that will be different i can assure u.

as i told before most things i only saw online, and now i am trying to reproduce the things and from teh small things i have seen i m not happy. so when i am in game i hardly used them till now. but i am also testing these things in battles now. u can read from teh number of catapults i have how much i am testing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Kraellin

11-24-2002, 03:34

magy,

i am glad to see that this
Quote[/b] ]...are collecting these things and posting them on a page on teh web for all too view.
is being done. i recall, while testing the 1.02 patch with you, that the rout bug was taken up, discussed, and tested by us until we knew what was causing it..mostly. this was then sent up to CA to have it fixed and i believe it was Target who then discussed it a bit with us in the main forums back then and told us this wasnt really a bug, but that it was an intentional feature. we asked him to remove it and i believe they did, didnt they?

my point is simply that nothing gets fixed until it is brought into the light for a full view. i am glad to see that this is being done with these 'legal bugs' now. perhaps they could even be posted in this new forum? i'm not worried about 'spoiling' the game over bringing these to light. if they exist then they are already spoiling it, yes?

i've already seen in this forum a generalized complaint about 'things' being bad or broken or whatever. we have a new forum. perhaps a new topic laying out EVERY SPECIFIC complaint or bug or bad feature would be a good thing to start now. one place for everything where the devs can go and see all the SPECIFIC mp complaints. yeah, i know of some of them from other threads in the main hall, but since this is a new forum distinctly for mp, and since this spectre of 'legal bugs' has come up again, perhaps it is time to lay them all out so that these can be addressed. if these 'legal bugs' do exist, then as one who needs and wants 'game balance', it only makes sense to get these known so that balance may be restored.

K.

barocca

11-24-2002, 03:43

Everybody here is working towards the same goal, improvement of the game,
what we all view as "improvment" may be vastly different, but medieval allows a vast array of options,

If we keep our heads i believe we can make medieval enjoyable for all.

One important point,
the possibilities are endless,

we can use the unit_prod files and the campaign files to create a myriad of options,
we can make horse archers avaialable to all factions,
we can make anything available to any faction...

with WE/MI i used to switch between stats almost every game, each stat required a different style of play which i found no problems adapting to.

Medieval gives even more options to us to alter and balance the play to suit our own styles,
and with the pressure of the competitive table gone,
i care not who i play, or which stat i play,
as long as i get to play.

It is for this reason I will gladly host, here at the org, any sets of stats.
I look forward to playing the set of stats currently under developement by Magyar, Kocmoc and company, even though i do not agree wholeheartedly with some of the changes,
I still want to play.

It is this burning desire to play that will ensure the longevity of the game,
Highlighting errors and "legal bugs" in the gameplay can only improve the enjoyment of the MP experiece for all players.
The developers will take notice when they play us online, they developed the game,
If they can't beat us at their own game,
Then they will sit up and take notice.

We all have the same goal, to improve the game.

Erado San

11-24-2002, 03:58

Ok, mr. positive here...

I know about the flaws... I am not blind...

But still, with the original stats, the stats in the patch, or the ones Kocmoc has put together, serious players can have good battles, tactical battles. Maybe not perfect battles, but still good. And have a good time.

I think, what the MP community needs, is to rally and persist in playing online. If one thing, that might be the purpose of this forum... to serve as a place where the serious players can meet and share experiences and knowledge to each other and to new players.

I don't believe in leagues that much. I do believe however that if enough of the good ones rally here and in some time we could get a good tournament going, that there is enough of a future for MP in MTW.

Maybe we should look at it from that perspective. I agree with Tosa that CA does consider the MP community. MTW, for all its flaws, is still better online than STW/MI/WE ever was (MI/WE 1.03 was very good though). I like Kocmoc' stats. I like the patch stats as well, although they work best with 15-20 k battles.

We can holler about flaws as much as we like. That won't help though. What we need is to keep playing and having fun, and that is well possible with MTW. In the mean time, our comments here should serve as a way to let CA know what we want for the add-on that is to come. Ok, let it be Vikings Invasions, I don't know and it doesn't matter that much. It will provide a nice new SP campaign and probably some nice additional things to use in MP as well.

But already some very good comments were made that show a way on how to improve what matters, and that is what I want to become clear for whatever CA has planned for the future.

I know what I want. A more stable environment online (we have seen one big improvement over STW there... At least the server isn't down every other weekend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I also want better tested online stats and tactical features of the game next time.

And what do you want? I don't mean "I want horse archers to be more effective". That is something that I hope can be covered with better testing next time around.

So I am defintely not worried about having 'legal bugs' posted. Serious players will try them once, to see how they work, and then discard them and play fair once more.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 04:13

well krae the routbug was never solved in stw.... even not after the patch. ask paolai. many times we cursed that bug cuz we had some nice box-dancing games on certain maps with teh routbug spoiling teh game.

barroca, i am sure the devs will never beat us online. teh game is nicely programmed but never tested really fully as hundred of people start playing online. thats teh place where teh game is tested. but with a patch-response time of an average 2.5 months u cant ecxpect me to be happy with that. your alleluha post here will give me a bit energy to write further.

I care about what i play, cuz there is no fun in winning almost all your games and losing some if u start using obvious weaker armies or your enemy knows the moralebonusses boosting tactics as well. I expect 40 knights to beat 60 arbalesters in a few moments. well plave the arbas in 2 ranks and knights in 4 ranks and do a full charge and put in the hidden key combo and they will stand a minute, even more and kill a lot of knights too.....

I am just beyond the crossroad of being cynical to every aspect of teh gamemechanics/balance. and for that are many reasons.
dont get me wrong, i dont research teh game, when i start doing that i will be losing interests very fast. but one time more i am pushed to get into the problems of the game once more to convince a bunch of people and still i ask myself will i be able to bring all teh proof for what i "feel" whats wrong. i was accused of trying to convert thsi game to my own liking, wasnt it me?

one more thing that makes me cynical about these processes is that we are such a small piece of teh market-pie that we will never have a voice in any decision. so we can only inform the devs and hope it will be improved.

still i want the best for this game, mp-wise. but who garantees me that my energy will not be wasted and my expectations met? i know already that many players expected much more from this game, and it appeared they/we expect just too much.

so far i have seen Koc and Amp (and a young wolf) doing things in a game (1.1 patched version) which tells me things are wrong. and i rely on them both in helping me with my fact finding sheet. it will not be based on numerous tests cuz that deserves not my energy. others will do that after i posted them.

so koc is already playing other games, and i convinced him to get Gettysburg. anyone interested in that till teh add on?

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 04:16

well erado. its not about teh stats. and its not even about the legal bugs. well maybe i must just post my first part of the factfinding sheet.

brb i hope koc dont hate me about it cuz it aint finished yet....

CBR

11-24-2002, 05:16

Well I whined a lot about cav and Im still playing MP..guess that means I'm a noob then.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I have also complained about other things..the most important thing being cost of units as the current ones are not suited for MP, especially not when we need so much money for valour upgrades(that might be open for discussion as some might like to play with more fragile units I dont know)

But I must admit I enjoy 1.1 a lot more than 1.0 even though I dont see it as something is perfect..just better.

Now if some of you, who knows about some serious balance issues (routbug etc) and see that it was not fixed in the patch, starts getting cynical..well I understand that.

Now I dont much about the bugs. Im more into stats/costs and game balance because of that than anything else.

Im glad that these bugs/features or whatever you wanna call them now comes out in the open so they can be discussed and perhaps be more visible to the developers.

CBR

Kocmoc

11-24-2002, 13:21

thx guys, that u posted in a nice way without attacking each other

jemasze, i dont speak bad about new player or otherwise i wouldnt help them and start with a traincamp again. to the battles...well i lost to so many guys 3;4;5 times in a row cant remeber this all, but i wont use al lthe time ...my best setup and i will be unlucky from time to time as well.

i dont say that i know it all and u dont

what ever, i dont see any changes in the future and im realy tired to explain something again and again.
I stop now my intention to help or try to make it better....maye it was jsut my few...and mybe my few is wrong....who knows....so enjoy the game like it is now.

I will still play this game but nothing more....

koc

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 14:12

but do u get gettysburg now?

Jemasze Toda

11-24-2002, 18:40

You know, in ancient Rome there was the famous habit that during a thriumphal march along the via sacra ( the sacred road) to the Capitol the triumphing general drove on his chariot with a slave standing behind him. This slave had two duties:
First, he holded the laurel Crown over the generals head and
second, his task was to whisper a sentence from time to time
into the generals ear: "Remember, that you are only a human"

Well, that's a Fool's task http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

yours Jemasze alias TheFool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 18:57

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 18:57

btw what i miss with that smiley is that it makes one kissing move towards teh other

Kraellin

11-24-2002, 21:48

from the cham:
Quote[/b] ]well krae the routbug was never solved in stw.... even not after the patch.

hmmm, werent there two separate 'bugs' on this, one that was a true bug and one that was a feature against morale for retreating too much? i know the retreating feature was not removed as my armies will still take morale hits for backing up too much, but wasnt the other one fixed? and just for the record, i dont really like the 'retreating too much' feature. it's too strong and discourages some types of valid manuevers.

and this:
Quote[/b] ]and put in the hidden key combo and they will stand a minute, even more and kill a lot of knights too.....

is exactly what i'm talking about that needs to be made public. if only a few know these things then we're all going to be talking, but not on the same plane. the ones that know it will talk with that authority of knowledge, but the ones that dont will be talking from a different perspective and have no reality about what the other is talking about, so we're always at odds with each other over what is 'wrong' with the game. the best way to get this changed is when it becomes broad public knowledge and obvious to all that something is wrong. thus, i welcome any efforts to expose these bugs/features and make them public knowledge. i know some have, but i've also never heard of this key combo thing and quite prolly others havent either and quite prolly there are other 'features' like this that most arent aware of.

K.

Dionysus9

11-24-2002, 23:03

We will carry on. If the "problems" with MTW have scared off these so-called "vets", then we don't really need them around anyway. My guess is they simply lost interest in wargaming or the duties of life called, and they find something to blame their absence on--to save face. A mighty warrior called to his daughter's soccer game doesn't sound very good. If he complains about imbalance then maybe his old friends don't think him a wussy.

I will continue to play MTW regardless of the imbalances. We can make rules to cover them. 4 max no ashi worked fine back in the day.

We need to rally the community, Erado is right.

baz

11-24-2002, 23:32

could i possible ask who was in the beta test team?

wasn't that the point of it to find these problems and enable CA to address them?

i understand that they might not have had long and im sure they put a lot of effort into this which i am extremely grateful for http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

but can i ask if you could post what findings you did make and what were the responses of the development team?

sorry just wondered http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

did CA know about the H2H ability of the ranged units?
what was the situation on this before the patch?

was this done intentionally, or has not been till now where it was discovered?

MagyarKhans Cham

11-24-2002, 23:50

Well bacchus , its maybe teh socalled vets expected a bit too much from teh gameplay balances, and are impetous to wait 2-3 months for teh smallest improvements.

u can invent any rules u want to try to balance it, 4 max seems a start, u also make rules like 20 soldiers max unitwidth? or no h4 handgunners, no keycombos that make units stronger than they ever should be?

maybe it better to let u play your games, and we drop in once a while to spank u around. its nice to see tho that ur very eager to play. thats good. i only hope it last long enuf for u.

Dionysus9

11-25-2002, 00:35

Heheh, you can spankl me whenever you can catch me, Lord Khan.

As I recall I remember teaching your Jinettes a lesson....:P

I know what you mean about expecting a good product. I expect a finished product with good balance and no bugs. But that is not what we have. We have the best online multiplayer wargame ever created. It is too bad it is not also a finished product.

I am addicted to Total War. We have never had this chance to play realistic realtime tactical wargaming. It really is incredible. I can not stop playing multiplayer--it is too fun and rewarding. I hope these so-called vets would deem me worthy of a spanking-attempt. I would like to show them what happens when you are out of practice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

If someone can stop playing multiplayer because it is not a 100% finished product, then more power too them--make a protest. I myself will keep playing...If I lose because I play fair, then that is honorable.

I will give you the chance to spank me at your first convenience.

*salutes*
*bows*

MagyarKhans Cham

11-25-2002, 01:44

well u know which faction is strongets and what units will do best. thats what we know. we also know that u need and deserve more training sessions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

LittleGrizzly

11-25-2002, 03:30

well i will continue to play mp regardless bit i dont like losing when i play fair and my opponent doesnt in shogun it was reaverlisk with his all monk or 8 monk 8 guns i eventually got him to play with a decent army and was 1-1 but the fact he brought not unbeatable but hard to beat units made me stop playing him

now im ok skillwise so when somebody who lacks experience charges me with all cav i can win (even though my army doesnt contain spears) but when someone half as skilled as me does it it turns into a bloody close game sometimes a loss and that irratates me casue he won cause of his cav not cause of his skill or my mistake cause he picked an unfairly hard army....

tootee

11-25-2002, 04:35

I love playing MTW regardless of all the so-calll imbalances. I enjoyed it even when my conventional army meets long rows of lancers and cavs that beat the hell out of me.. the process to counter that army, to react and think of a probable tactics in real-time, stimulates my brain. Frankly, last few days I even enjoyed playing with v3 handgunners and v3 arbalestor, and I even use my handgunners as the 1st echoleon in a charge. I also enjoyed a game in which AMP brought an all cav armies, lined up in single row starting at center, and charge at I think Nikiko *always fun to play with or against AMP IMO*, although Nikiko held good.

Who I win, how I win (or lose) dont bother me.. I just like to reflect on my performance given the circumstances, whether I reacted in the best way in the situation, and I wouldnt ponder on the loss as I've enjoy every minutes of it. Of course a win always make me look good.

So my point is that there is some of us *maybe just a small group* that enjoy more the experience and process of gaming on MTW online, rather than winning, or to at least win over an opponent who is perceived as less-in-skill *even the Chicago Bulls can have a good nite vs the Lakers (no offence to Bulls' fans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )*. That is what sustains us Gazwans to play till daybreak *7am* because of the time difference with Europe/US.

HF all.

Erado San

11-25-2002, 10:26

Baz,

Who the testers were doesn't matter, what matters is that it was made clear before the release that a major overhaul of the (MP) balance was not going to be the focus of the patch. A few changes had been imcluded, and a few we suggested also made their way into it.

A true balancing act would require much more time, and in all honesty, I think CA understands that balancing for MP is best left to the players. Which is why all the stats are in txt files.

The main issues as are being discussed in this forum at the moment were not suggested during the beta testing. I don't know whether they would have been implemented if they had been suggested.

All the things we did notice have been addressed, and most of these have been fixed. One fix didn't fix enough in the end, the GA points. All in all, with all the things that were in the patch, and the improvements we managed to add to it, it's a good patch.

But ok, this is an MP forum, so let's focus on that now. The main thing is that most of what we want as far as balance is concerned we can do ourselves. The Morale +2 would have to be done in the code I believe, and if the bonuses need adjusting (I am not entirely convinced they need to be) that would have to be coded as well. Again, most of these issues were not addressed by the beta testers.

For the future the main conclusion is that the format of beta testing should change, with more MP players involved, and preferably in an earlier stage. This will happen most likely in the future, but I can't comment on that at the moment.

ElmarkOFear

11-25-2002, 10:36

If you want a Gettysburg challenge Magya, let me know and I will get some of the pre-STW Uglys together from old Team Puy and take you guys on. That was my favorite game until the online community for it moved on to other games. Let me know and I will have them install the game and we can play a 3v3 game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I am actually GOOD at Gettys unlike these past 3 total war games. hehe But alas, there was even a rushing technique used by a few who had the knowledge which unbalanced the game. This individual moved to number one on ladder using this technique. Fortunately, he told no one and the few Team Puy players who knew how it was done, never used it nor told how to accomplish it.

Jemasze Toda

11-25-2002, 11:06

...and poor Fool must agree with Tootee

I also love to play this game in spite of all the major and minor bugs, imbalances and low skilled wannabes taking all cav rush-armies or whatever army or key-combo or unit-mismatch let them win.

I loose sometimes, some days more, some days less and win often enough to uphold my ego http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and are somehow content with this situation although i most certainly would like to see some changes in gameplay.
But maybe because i am such an computer-illiterate i do expect not much from a computer-game in general. When i bumped into Shogun ( i think i saw it in TV )i was so fascinated by it that i bought my first computer solely to play Shogun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
And due to the fact that i realized very quickly the limitation of a CPU opponent i turned my attention to MP. What an experience that was for a modern time Fool like me:
I encountered the internet through Shoggy ( believe it or not, i never "surfed" before STW ) and learned about the immense capabilities of the net only then.
As a result of this i was even more fascinated...
During my childhood i always dreamed about leading great armies into massive battles and behold Here i had the opportunity to do so
Further i enjoyed ( and still enjoy) reading and fantasizing about human history and Tolkiens middle-earth and the community with its clans and virtual "roleplaying" gave me something to let my childish imagination fly high.

But soon i saw how difficult it was (is) to get so many different people with different imaginations and wishes and expectations together ( even more in the virtual than in the "real" world) so i never put too much hope and effort in finding more than the most basic but still superb fun here, unlike Magyar and some others.
Nevertheless i respect(ed) those guys very much i appreciate(d) all the energy, hard work and time they sacrifize(d) in order to build something wonderful for the tiny community of Totalwar-multiplayer. So my personal decision was to become the chief (LOL) commentator and Fool of the community, that way i was able to participate at least a bit in the community without spending too much time in front of the screen and -most importantly- without too many obligations.
Then the Clan-campaigns came and i was thrilled by them They were as close as something can come to what i truly searched for but alas they ate a tremendous amount of time and demonstrated once again that we are a too heterogen and impatient group of gamers to really get it running over a long period of time.
That would be a fantastic thing again...to play another major Clan-campaign and this time i would be no mercenary but part of a successful Clan Hehe

Ahh its early morning, i just came back from my night-watch job and babble nonsense without any purpose...and am lost now...what did i want to say originally? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

I have forgotten if ever i knew it...sooooo lets play some more games, lets all have fun and go to bed soon.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

yours Jemasze alias TheFool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

also known as ELITEofManstein http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

+DOC+

11-25-2002, 13:56

The +2 morale is a very good addition for both MP an SP.

Dionysus9

11-25-2002, 20:49

Quote[/b] (MagyarKhans Cham @ Nov. 24 2002,18:44)]well u know which faction is strongets and what units will do best. thats what we know. we also know that u need and deserve more training sessions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
I cant wait.

LadyAnn

11-26-2002, 02:06

Hidden Key Combo? Huh? What? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I guess I need to start to play more "custom" battle where I will try to push randomly at the keys.

MagyarKhan, are you trying to kill the cats? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Annie

YunDog

11-26-2002, 03:26

Well, all the usual suspects are here, Im hardly surprised you guys are getting jaded with the game youve been playing it for longer and more frequently. Back in the days of STW there was a split then as well - people that played competitive games and people that played for fun. I always thought the competition league thingy was a corruption of the pure game and led to people getting angry - and taking the game way too seriously. If the vets arent having fun anymore maybe they should take a break from the game and let some of the new MTW generation make their own. I cannot imagine anyone attracted to playing a game where they get their ass handed to them by some guy thats been playing every day since STW and knows every unit strength and weekness and what army to use for every variation of koku, and some secret key combinations to boot. Ya the thought of playing this guy is really making me want to play. NOT Playing the vets sounds like it would be really boring - theyd have their set moves and their tactics worked out so they could get their all important win - how dull - not going to be many surprises in that game - then it just comes down to unit selection and balancing - which is what you guys are unhappy about - how surprising http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I suggest IMO the league competions and vets are in fact detrimental to the game and discourages new players - most are not going to invest the time in the game that you have - so rather than getting slaughtered - theyll just play something else. I see it happening in alot of online games - CS, WC3, and STW where the vets are so serious about the game and know the game so well - that new players are scaired off - because they see so much history that they know they will never match - and why try it looks to me like the ones having fun playing the game are the noobs and good on them - maybe the vets need to find a new game and become noobs again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

The best games were always the greatest battles - its all about the battles - making your enemy to route in 5 minutes is boring.

well thats my 5 cents, still playing - but not online - loving the battles - loving the game - having ausome fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

tootee

11-26-2002, 04:03

Gotta disagree with you Yun. Those newbies who left, either find the online aspect isnt as interesting after trying it, or they are the type who care about winning, hate to lose and since MTW has a steeper initial learning curive IMO, they just leave after streak of losing, never to appreciate the immense experience this online game has to offer had they stay on to learn and play more. Well, this type of game isnt for everyone, just like WC3 online isnt my type.

And I wouldnt use the word 'vet' in the description your Playing the vets sounds like it would be really boring - theyd have their set moves and their tactics worked out so they could get their all important win - how dull - not going to be many surprises in that game , if by 'vet' you mean players who have play TW online a really long time. IMO its more of those gamers who have just overcome the learning curve *know how to control armies, basis of good army selection, etc* that tends to exploit the game's flaws repeatedly, as the winnings feed them like cocoine, and usually play 1v1 I think. True old timers of the like of Magy, AMP, Koc, Elmo, Jemz and many others, would hardly enjoy trashing newbies. They are more at the stage of experimenting with different tactics, some absurd *like charging with handgunners 1st? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif*, some fun .. mostly against experience players. In the process they discover more 'flaws' and such, but I hardly think they enjoy using them on newbies.

So I guess those who left MTW MP are those who found the online game isnt really one that they want to spend hours on.. just my opinion.

Dionysus9

11-26-2002, 08:58

I think you are right Tootee. If you take an unskilled player and give him some imbalances, he might even win against an expert once in awhile. But he will still betray his inexperience.

If Amp hits me with 16 units of spanish cavalry, you better believe I am worried. If some newguy tries it I'm going to make him think cavalry is a waste of money.

Although there may not be as many "experts" out there as there are "newbs", the level of play among these vets is really challenging.

Anytime a group of people fall into a pattern of play they will get their ass kicked for them. You have to be fluid, all the time. Static tactics are easily countered.

Flow like the water, grasshopper...

ElmarkOFear

11-26-2002, 09:10

I played a new player the other night and in his first game he lost quickly and said; "This is stupid, why didnt my men fight?" After the game I took a long time explaining to him the basics of the game and told him I lost a lot when I first started playing and still lose a lot. He played another game with us we took our time, gave him some hints. He was beaten, but he did much better. He said; "This game is stupid." I told him he did much better and to stick with it because it was a very hard game to play. Not like Command and Conquer. I once again explained about morale etc . . He may have played a few more games after that, but I would be surprised if he stays around much longer. When you start as a new person in anything . . at work, a new sport, a new college class, you can't expect to just jump in and dominate or even hold your own, until you have put some time into it. To blame the veteran players, (especially those that play for fun and not to prove anything), is doing them a disservice. Most will gladly lend a hand to a new player who needs some help. You should be glad that the veterans play with the new guys, in the old days of STW, when the ladder was in effect, a lot of players would not play new players. I think the atmosphere of the MTW lobby is much more conducive to having fun than the old days.

Dionysus9

11-26-2002, 09:34

Nobody wants to play chess anymore...they want to play Streetfighter 2. Nobody wants to read the newspaper anymore, they want to watch 30 second sound bites. They want fast food, flashy clothes, and "hot" musicians (as if physical appearance has anything to do with musical ability).

This game takes patience and hardwork to get good at. You cant just click around like a maniac and win games. The multiplayer lobby doesn't really look sleek and polished (and lets face it, it isnt). There aren't 10,000 people online, therefore this game is "stupid."

Its much cooler for the newer players to hang out with older players, but I'm afraid some of them just want "immediate satisfaction" and they arent going to get it playing experienced players.

I get a lot of resistance from new players who ask me a question and then don't want to hear my answer. Very similar to elmos story. They ask a question and when you answer they are offended or something....I don't know what kids these days are thinking.

(god that makes me old, ugh).

youssof_Toda

11-26-2002, 13:07

Although I wish you all luck for balancing the game I wouldn't expect too much of it. Balancing 100 units (or was it more) and the complete gamemechanics is unlikely to happen. I like to emphasize more on playerattitude. If you want to bring all those godemodearmies against me go ahead but you can be sure I'll start loosing interest in playing you soon. Like in UT where I always refused to play with the shockfile and had ppl which were equally-minded: we kicked shockers from our games. Same can be done in MTW.

MagyarKhans Cham

11-29-2002, 12:11

u still playing youssof?

youssof_Toda

11-29-2002, 20:40

yesterday i was

youssof_Toda

11-30-2002, 14:08

Btw can't blame some ppl for not playing anymore it's boring as hell when you can't have some good 3v3's/4v4's with decent teams. Either you get all vet v all noob + 1 vet or you get 1 vet + all noob v 1 vet + all noob. It kind of spoils the fun when you want a tactical teambattle.

ShadeHonestus

11-30-2002, 16:27

good 3v3's a problem? Thats what leagues were going to help with, but there is no interest in that...

Puzz3D

11-30-2002, 18:08

The clans took a terrible beating during the year of WE/MI with the poor gameplay of v1.00, and the flawed v1.02. My own clan almost ceased to exist as players lost interest in the game. We are in a rebuilding stage now which I think most clans are, and the only way the clan system can come back is if this game is not only challenging but also a "fun" experience. Not everyone is playing just for the competative aspect. There has to be a fun aspect as well. Where is the fun aspect of the clan league?

I also think you're seeing the fallout of the recent fighting between people. This fighting had a negative effect on a lot of players. The community is not whole anymore. It's now more like a feudal system.

My view is that, whenever a newbie gets kicked out of a game just because they are new, it hurts the community. You don't foster a community by telling the new guys to form their own clan, and then have vet clans beat the crap out of them game after game. There just are not enough players to rely on competative desire alone to make a critical mass of people engage in playing.

youssof_Toda

11-30-2002, 18:46

Games are in general more fun if you play with ppl who actually know the rules. This is not meant as crtitisizm but as an encouragement to new players to get to know the rules cuz it will make their online experience more fun. But from time to time I'd like to play with some ppl I know and get a higher level of play in multi. I hardly see old faces around (may have to do with me hopping in at diff hours every time) so it's hard to get a nice battle for me. It's not about winning it's all about fun and I find that hard to find in the foyer so I play less.

Goedfroy

11-30-2002, 19:05

The new player will need some times to learn the rules and mechanics of multiplayer battle. Some want to learn, some dont want. I agree its realy hard to put some balanced 3vs3 or 4vs4.
Anyway hope will met again on the field Youssof
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Crandaeolon

11-30-2002, 19:35

Just as a little counterpoint, my newbie experience with MTW was fairly pleasant, excluding the horrible connectivity problems and bugs, of course. (Yes, that's right, I'm not a Shogun vet. Though it's sort of comforting to know that some people believe I am. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) But what I mean is that it was relatively easy to "blend in" and get to know the ropes. There are other games that are far more intimidating, IMO.

It's probably the small size of the community. Makes it sort of cozy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And, I like the "maturish" feeling of the community. Quite different from, say, CS or UT. I actually thought that I'd never belong into a "clan" ever again after my Quakeworld days, but the nice fellows at Shades convinced me otherwise. (They picked me up fairly quickly. I bet they were desperate.:p)

Puzz3D

11-30-2002, 19:49

There was a big influx of new players in MTW which lowered the average standard of play, but I think that standard is improving now. I've encountered quite a few players who never played STW or WE/MI who are already very good players. In the evening US time, there are several players who host big games which skilled players flock to because they are presented as fun games rather than serious competative affairs, but they have a stong competative aspect just the same.

I see this influx of new players as a good thing. New players ruin vets fun so they leave? You'll always have vets leaving no matter what which means the number of old faces dwindles.

Crandaeolon

11-30-2002, 21:05

I've found that goofing around helps to break static patterns. Trying things like hosting radically different sorts of games and playing with different types of armies kind of refreshes the game. Occasionally there are disasters, of course, like hills/desert battles if the attackers are not prepared, but personally i've had the most fun in these "experimental" games.

Like hills. (Ok, hills are not _that_ experimental...) Some large hill battles will remain as replay files on my hard drive and in my memories for a loooong time. Steppe battles I usually forget right after they're over.

Of course, alternating play styles (within certain limits) improves skills, too. I bet we all know at least one goofer who's a great player to boot. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Kocmoc

12-01-2002, 02:26

hmmmm, some good points....

i lost interest like many other "old" players. Youssof hit nail on the head its extrem boring to waste 3 or 4 hours to just kick some new players, i want some challanges as well, but its near impossible

puzz, wich player are good and never played STW?

never saw 1 of this new-good players, all what i see is impatient and rush, they dont learn...they rush and lose....than they rush again and lose again...lol

the other problem is, that this game lost some very important aspects. the hills are not there its a 2D game now. with all this flat we can easy say, it got a arcade game. hit fast ....click fast...and u will win...ofcourse u need to know the basics

there are some major problems and all what i can read is...this patch is good (or very good), again...maybe the SP is much better now but the MP aspects are still very bad.
.....i wont start moaning, but thats the truth

so what the problem? and what would be a solution?

well, imo we need a ladder so we see more 1v1 and more camping (on some hardcore hills this will increase the skill very much in a short time.
in 3v3 u cant learn something there is much luck and if the new player lose or win, they dont know why they won or lost.

we need a patch and this fast there are so many games without any problems in online play. So we stil lwait for an answer when we get a new patch?

all together, i like this game, but compared to STW it lost much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
the tactical momentum is gone, its just rushing and the knowledge about how to use the units well.

to the fun, well...there isnt any fun to steamroll new players all the day in STW, mag and me had some chanllanges and we lost some games sometimes....but here...lol we jsut lose if we take very weak armys.....and if u join a 3v3 with 2 new allys..... so there isnt any fun.... i dont wanna play 100 games to play 1 good game...

imo we have the short arcade player online now, they will leave in 2 or 3 months than we allone again and its a question if the old guys come back......

i personal search for other games like the other wolves....so if we find some good game we are away anyway....

have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

koc

Jemasze Toda

12-01-2002, 04:42

Yuuki, where is the fun aspect in a Clan-league you ask?

Where is the fun-aspect in joining a basketball/soccer/chess/whatever club in order to play in a league?
I would say its the desire to compete against other humans (males mostly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) and to measure your skills...quite natural, isn't it?
That may personally bore you and in general you prefer to play only single fun battles with no further impact or history to tell of. Easy played, easy forgotten...
But what is ok for you, does not necessarily ( obviously i should say) reflect the opinion of others, as you well know of course. Lots of people enjoy it a lot to have some kind of history and background for their favourised entertainment, and leagues, organized tournaments and even more so online-campaigns and Clan-stuff are possible ways to satisfy that desire. The competitive spirit is a vital part of the fun -especially in the long term- for many people.
We all have our preferences....while i (besides playing of course...) enjoy writing foolish posts here and elsewhere, about the game and beyond, you take pleasure in thinking and discussing endless statistical details in the forums.

If you stay with a game for over two years, it MUST have something to fascinate you.
The better you get, the better opponents you wish to play against and as a matter of fact NEED to play in order to improve your skill.
Some think of Totalwar as a "sport" nowadays, exactly as others play chess for example. They love this game and honor it with their sportive attitude and competitive spirit.

But each to his own liking...

yours Jemasze Toda alias TheFool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

also known as ELITEofManstein

Crandaeolon

12-01-2002, 04:45

Koc, could ya list some players, like Shogun vets, that ya think are good? That would help me put things into perspective.

And about hills... true, the bonuses aren't large and it's easier to attack uphill than in Shogun, but the scope of hill maps is still much larger. And if I recall correctly from the discussions here, hill camping was considered dishonourable in Shogun and people mostly played flat maps. So what would be the solution?

A new game... hmm. Master of Orion 3 perhaps? It might be a flop, all the delays in production can't be good signs, but they say it's built from the ground up to support multiplayer. We'll have to wait and see, I'm a bit skeptical about it.

Now I'll start counting all the 6-star assassins sent after me because I dared to mention a sci-fi game on these forums... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

12-01-2002, 18:16

imo thare are just not enuf people in teh same category

we have some modders
we have some statshusslers
we have some competetive gamers
we have some wargamers

we have some fitting in more than 1 group

my Khan is interested in teh wargamers to have interesting campaigns. campaigns require involvment which just a few can bring.

but besides the clan war belt we are looking for new games and hope that new guys will master the game and bring us fun when we hop in once in a while.

ElmarkOFear

12-02-2002, 06:01

Well for turnbased, PBEM games, Combat Mission 2 is the best. For shooters, there are many good ones out there. For multiplayer strategy games, I would recommend civ2, civ3, or Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. For an alternative to playing chess, I would recommend a game called "GO". It is a very simple game but the strategy behind it is endless and very challenging, especially online. For a classic game, similar in some respects to the Total War series, I would recommend Sid Meier's Gettysburg Then there are single player games such as Deus Ex, Half-life, Max-Payne, System Shock 2. For a great and fun arcade type flight simulation game Microsoft's Crimson Skies is the best. For a real flight/war simulation "Sturmovik" can't be beat. Then there are some cheap classic games out there such as Starcraft, Red Alert, Myth series. I have also heard good things about No One Lives Forever 1 & 2. Oh so many games so little time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Swoosh So

12-02-2002, 14:56

Elmark of fear junior member rofl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Swoooooooooooooooooooosh

youssof_Toda

12-02-2002, 17:12

Maybe elmark hasn't proven yet that he can act as a good boy when given the unlimited powers of a senior member http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

ElmarkOFear

12-02-2002, 18:44

Story of my life Always a bridesmaid, never the bride http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif LOL

tootee

12-02-2002, 18:53

http://www.stagebridge.org/Graphics/Love.GIF YOU ALWAYS Elmo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

tootee

12-02-2002, 18:54

I think I've post in the wrong thread.. oh nevermind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

12-03-2002, 01:40

u turning this into an OT thread elm? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Puzz3D

12-03-2002, 08:34

Jemasze,

I played in chess leagues for 20 years and enjoyed the competion, but I enjoy chess a lot more now that winning isn't as important. Disparaging games played for enjoyment seems to be a fad around here, and you continue the trend by calling the games easily played and easily forgotten which is not necessarily true. I think many players put a lot of effort into these games. We have the replay feature which is similar to writing your moves down in chess which preserves the game. All I'm saying is that a lot of people play for enjoyment, and you can automatically rule them out of a play for blood competition.

Kocmoc,

CBR and Bosdur are two who didn't play STW. I've encountered some others, but don't remember their names. It's just going to take a while before a large percentage of the new players achieve a high level of skill. However, becoming very good at a game reduces the number of opponents that can give you strong competition. In theory, the best player has no one who can give him a good strong game. BTW, rushing was an effective tactic in STW.

While I find most of the MTW MP game imbalances tolerable, I have stopped playing late era because of the handgunner which can get too many upgrades at high florins. I play at 15K to 20K to reduce the routing. Also, early era is less interesting because of the weak archers which I still think is mostly due to a lack of ammo. Most of the units are not needed. The 5 most cost effective units per faction are all you really need. I've been going through the hilly maps, but most of them have rather small hills which doesn't give much of an advantage to the defender. There is still some downhill bonus in the game, but you need fairly large hills to notice it. Some highly defensive custom maps might be needed to make attacking very challenging. As I've said before, I though the downhill bonus in STW was too large, and, as I recall, a lot of players felt that way. Just look at how many games were played on green or ironing board.

Dionysus9

12-03-2002, 10:37

Bachs_Gambit2 has plenty of hills for defenders and yet enough room to maneuver to give attackers some advantages....

downloadable at the custom files area, put it in /savemaps

youssof_Toda

12-03-2002, 11:38

Quote[/b] (MagyarKhans Cham @ Dec. 02 2002,18:40)]u turning this into an OT thread elm? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Quote[/b] ]u turning this into an OT thread elm? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

That must be the reason why he is still a junior member

Kocmoc

12-03-2002, 13:58

puzz,

true....many games was played on green or iron, this was a big problem i dont think the hill bonusses was to big in STW. It just took some time to win uphill, this is something wich the most guys wont do they want "fast" and easy games, they dont want to climb it step by step. this was something wich always worked for me....on 4th or totomi or any other map with some normal hills.

the big hill maps was to win as well it was just hard and somehow it was a challange. A very important point was, that u could hide with ur tired army on hills, so u had a good chance to win 1v2, just by controlling ur army well.

now with the current system u cant do it, and this means u havnt any chance to win 1v2 (ofcourse vs good players)

just an example, with this "tactic" u never will loose

save 3 or 4 V0 knight and fight just with 12 units, maybe u will loose, but the saved, fresh 4 knights will run over the tired enemy units this spoil every game away just coz u can hide on a devensiv position and the fatique is bad as well.

i personal won very oft as attacker in STW and i didnt found it hard to attack this hills maybe some impatient players didnt won vs campers but this is more about skill than hillbonusses.

again, if some players, wich are average or bad say the hillbonusses are too big, than we shouldnt change it like this. IMO all the longtime players and skilled warriors are the opinion that the hillbonusses was good in STW. (at least the guys who i talked to).

its just a tactical point, u need defensiv positions or we have the 2d gaming and the ironboard or green maps are just stupid

So if i see now the games wich are played are still very falt maps, so what will change if we get some more hillbonusses? nothing for this maps its just not important what the hillbonusses are
to look at the SP, this could cause maybe some problems for this guys...ok there we ned a solution...
and the solution is very easy we need 2 patches

there is somehow a hardcoded bonuss for the hills, 1 number to change, this should be easy....

koc

MagyarKhans Cham

12-03-2002, 16:33

well i just noticed i got a yellow card http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif anyone knows where and what cuased it?

Swoosh So

12-03-2002, 16:38

Whats a yellow card for?

MagyarKhans Cham

12-03-2002, 16:46

perhaps reacting on some ^**#&$&#036http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif*# people i guess

Puzz3D

12-03-2002, 22:17

Kocmoc,

That is true about holding back fresh units and then chain routing the weakened enemy units, but that strategy is not new to MTW. I saw it used very effectively in 3v3 and 4v4 battles in STW, and when coupled with the downhill bonus you couldn't win against it. In MTW, I've seen the foremost practitioner of that strategy fail 3 times, but he didn't have all cav. From what I have observed, 90% of the players do not understand how the morale system works, and they fall into that trap of a player holding back units every time. If you're in a 1v1 and your opponent is holding back 4 units, you are advised to do the same so you have something to counter them with. In big battles, it takes a high level of cooperation to take out the last camping opponent, but I think the routing in all directions helps because it's hard for a single player to run off all the units of 3 or 4 opponents.

Dionysus9

12-03-2002, 22:42

I recall the devs saying they hadnt changed any of the hill bonuses in MTW. I think the problem is caused by flat maps. If thats the case, then we just need steeper maps.

We can do that.

Holding a few units in reserve can also backfire if they get caught in the chain rout from the units you commit. And since Morale support is calculated by the # of banners (and not # of men) the enemies depleted (but still standing) units will boost the morale of any units he may have also kept in reserve.

Holding back units is not a clear advantage against experienced players.

muffinman14

12-03-2002, 23:40

MP was dead for me I guess but now Im playin with some buddies at the com.

Puzz3D

12-04-2002, 00:57

Dion,

LJ did say he didn't change the downhill combat bonus in MTW, but it is changed. It's something like 60/40 for OrderFoot on about a 45 degree slope. In WE/MI it's around 2/1 on a 30 degree slope for 100 man yari samurai. The WE/MI number is very rough, but there is no doubt that the downhill bonus is considerably larger in WE/MI.

Crandaeolon

12-04-2002, 01:38

Quote[/b] ]
save 3 or 4 V0 knight and fight just with 12 units, maybe u will loose, but the saved, fresh 4 knights will run over the tired enemy units this spoil every game away just coz u can hide on a devensiv position and the fatique is bad as well.

Heh, I fell for that yesterday or the day before that, can't remember which... guess I just wanna forget http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

The map was arid Campaign Milan IIRC, and Koc had 8 cav units, most knights, some pav arbs and some order footmen. (again, IIRC. I'm very very angry at myself as I forgot to save the replay, do ya have it Koc BTW?). I was the attacker and had a "balanced" army (4 light cav, 4 normal arbs, 2 chivalric sergeants, 4 CMAA and 2 FMAA). Florin count was 13000 for both, I think.

Koc took a small forest (on a slight hill) close to the center of the map with his foot units and set up 4 cav on the other sides of the forest. Those 4 knight units in reserve were deployed _far_ away.

I mulled the situation a bit and deployed slowly. Perhaps a bit too slowly, as I took a few casualties from arb fire. I was clearly losing the shooting match, as Koc's arbs were partially covered in the forest and had pavises. I split my army and took a small forest across Koc's to put some of my own arbs in a more advantageous position, but the shooting match was practically useless as Koc's footmen were deep in the forest and I could only shoot at his arbs.

Then I decided to rush Koc's forest with my swords and screen his cav away with my spears, but could have done better as I was forced to constantly keep some attention on his reserve knights. I thought those knights would hit my flank as soon as I looked away.

Well, I understood the tactic after I routed Koc's main army, but it was too late by then. I gathered my remaining forces and protected one of my flanks with the forest, but my men routed as soon as the knights made contact. I also had only one spear unit left at that point.

I honestly don't think there was any way I could have pulled it off with that army setup. Even if I had routed his main forces more quickly and suffered less casualties, I could not have chased them off the map or I'd have been too scattered. Perhaps with cav, but there were too many routing units to chase them all. There was no way I could have gone after his 4 reserve knights with my 4 light cav (and one of those was my gen). And, I plain and simply had too few spears against so much cav. Perhaps I could have deployed my remnant swords in the forest, but I doubt it would have had enough effect.

It was a good match, well at least educating http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. I learned a lot of things from it. I wish I had the replay...

Koc, what do ya think I could have done in that situation?

Someday I will prove that a newblood can rise thru the ranks and give the vets a spanking, grrr... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Dionysus9

12-04-2002, 02:42

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Dec. 03 2002,17:57)]Dion,

LJ did say he didn't change the downhill combat bonus in MTW, but it is changed. It's something like 60/40 for OrderFoot on about a 45 degree slope. In WE/MI it's around 2/1 on a 30 degree slope for 100 man yari samurai. The WE/MI number is very rough, but there is no doubt that the downhill bonus is considerably larger in WE/MI.
Thanks for the clarification Yuuki....kinda sad its become a 2D game because of all the flat standard maps. What we need to make up for the problem is HILLS

Well, then I suppose we do have a problem and the only solution is more severe slopes. We just have to make BIGGER hills.

*plug*

Bachs_Gambit2 (my custom map) received numerous complaints for being too hilly in STW. Now maybe it will receive a warmer welcome.

Go download it everyone, lets start playing some steep maps.

Magyar Khan

12-04-2002, 02:51

bigger hills dont solve a thing dion since fatique is still very important and imo a bit too much.
big hills do look nice tho.

cran u will beat vets more regurly but u will never spank them hard if they concentrate on your game. i have seen all sort of skills, talented and fast growing ones amongst players but there is no way u can spank a top rank vet. or u must discover some hidden "features" yourself.

di u play stw yourself?

Crandaeolon

12-04-2002, 04:12

I never played Shog online, only single player as I had no 'net connection then and the online efforts of my buddies were concentrated on games like CS, UT and Tribes 2 anyway. We played on a Polytechnic's comps back then.

Of course no one will ever be able to 'spank' 'vets' around the maps with ease, at least I hope so. But some newbloods will eventually become 'vets' themselves at some point, some faster and some slower. Most probably never, but you can be certain there will be a few.

What I've seen happen with other games is that a new iteration is always a _new_ game. For example, the differences between Quakeworld and Quake 2. The feel of Q2 was horrible from the perspective of QW vets. I could not play the game, it felt clumsy and imprecise. (And it was, the playability of Q2 was horrible compared to QW. At least from my perspective.)

The same happened with Tribes and Tribes 2, and with UT and UT2003k. The (best) vets always complained. (I think UT2003k is a miserably bad game. I have it on my shelf, but don't really play it.)

I think Shog and MTW are a special case, as they're fairly close to each other in gameplay, but I don't feel I've played Shog enough to have a knowledgeable opinion. They must not be _totally_ different games since the Shog vets could bring their skills onto the playing field. And of course the basic gameplay and interface are largely the same. So, I'd like to ask the vets how different they really feel?

Right, let's get closer to the point. I believe that the more different a "next" game in a game series is, the harder it will be for the 'vets' to excel at. Of course the 'vets' already have a lot of 'foundation' skills, and even just playing different games improves one's ability with a game one has _never_ played before. (My friend mastered Day of Defeat in a single week, becoming the best player on the server. The others had been playing for six months, and the server was one of the busiest in Scandinavia. Then I persuaded him to stop computer gaming for a while, as he had been slow in his studies. Served the bugger right. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)

Vets have learned the skills. But anyone, even a newblood, may have the talent. There are lots of people on Earth, and there is always someone with a greater or at least equal _potential_. As for Shog / MTW... I don't think the mechanics are different enough to actually _hinder_ the vets, but time will tell if some of the newbloods have enough talent to rise above the best players of today. It will definitely happen if the vets get disinterested in the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

This is getting to be a long post, but about those "hidden features"... like I told you, there are some that I will not use. Like the long lines of MAA or Cav. I will try to beat them with other tactics. For me, that's a part of the fun... and if I lose, no matter. Losing's not so bad as there's always something to be learned from a defeat. On the other hand... if at some time a cheesy "feature" becomes so prominent that almost everyone who uses it will automatically win, I'll stop playing MTW and either wait for it to be fixed or start playing a new game.

Sorry for the hijack attempt, good night all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Kocmoc

12-04-2002, 12:43

hi crand,

as u asked so nicely and it seems ur a real nice guy, i will give u "hint" or lets say my ideas in thsi situation.

the only way to counter fresh cav with tired units is the use of spears
but, spears have always to stand and they have to be in hold position, like foot order...they are from start in hold. If spears are in hold, the cav DONT get the chargebonuss and this solve the problem. ofcourse if u have jsut 30 men units left this wont help much, but with an average unit.....maybe 50 or 60 men u should have a chance vs this cav.....i would stretch the spears as well to get more area closed. and i would use hold position and hold formation.

another good point in the situation would be if u split ur army in 2 parts, first the enemy has to decide if he splitt his 4 cavs or if he catch 1 by 1.... if he do he will be tired as well if he reach the second part of ur army, if not he need good skills to control this 2 splitts and u just face 2 knight with both of ur splits, so u make the supportbonusses less effectiv...

i remember this game, u played bad and u had the wrong units left, u had 4 maa units in ur center my knights eat ur maa and later u cant face with them any cav, if my cav with a charge of 20 or 26 hit ur maa with 30 men left, they will run after the first secs, not a chance.

but ut other problem was, that u won very close vs my 12 units so u had not enought leftt to face the other 4 support units

i could speak about this some hours there are so man ypossible solution and tactics this is just impossible to explain.

to the question of the vets...hehe.....MTW and STW are near same, the +2 moral to all units is left and this would solve the major problems, the shooters are less effectiv and some bonusses can spoil the game very easy....the hillbonusses are just to low to use a defending possition,so this game lost a lot compared to STW. U have to be offensiv the whole time, u cant hide or take any defensiv position.

i personal moved to MTW and needed 2 games to beat near everything, now it got a bit better but i normaly have jsut good games vs STW-vets, puzz listed CBR and (forgot it) i dont agree, they are maybe the better of the new players but they dont know much, they can good rush but are mostly impatient and want fast victs.
the best teamwork i saw so far was from 3 RTK-members, they played very well.

imo the most new good players exploited maybe 30% of this game and mostly they do somethng because they know the outcome but they dont know why this happens. And there is more as just knowledge, there is a feeling and just a handfull has the feeling. Where is the real difference?
some players played about 10.000 games they feel it, they dont know the stats they just feel what will happen, u need at least 5000 games to come close to this guys, something what will never happen, or u play 14 hours a day and just 1v1 teambattles near never bring any skill or knowledge.

but look, our game easy show to u, that in this game are some problems, if the fatique woud be changed and ur units would be a bit fresher u had a chance or the hill would give u some more bonusses.... but as long i can just with tricks can win i wouldnt say it is the skill which decide about the outcome of this game.

koc

PS: i near never save replays, sorry

Puzz3D

12-04-2002, 14:28

Kocmoc,

If a player needs 5000 games to compete with someone who has played 10,000 games, that would say there is a lot of depth to the game. If you can't explain how to counter your strategy in Crandaeolon's game that too would say there is tactical complexity to the game, and it's not just all cheap tactics as you have been claiming. Now how could the new players get 1000's of games in if the game has been out only 3 months?

Crandaeolon's units should move into the trees and stay there since MAA cannot compete with 4 remaining cav knights in the open field. If he can hold in the woods, the game would be stalemated, but that's the best he can do at that point. Bringing only 2 spears and light cav leaves his army vulnerable to cav knights.

Most fatigue is suffered when fighting, and, since Crandaeolon used all of his units to fight your 12, of course his units are going to be fatigued. I wouldn't draw from that the conclusion that fatigue should be reduced. I would draw the conclusion that Crandaeolon has to beat your 12 units with 12 of his units and keep a 4 unit reserve that is capable of checking the 4 cav knights.

I don't agree with you that there is no defensive capability in MTW and that the game is 2D. There is still a combat bonus, morale bonus and ranged fire bonus for height, and units move slower when moving uphill and faster when moving downhill.

Kocmoc

12-04-2002, 14:57

hmmmm,

i tent to give up, so this is my last try ...
its seems u read jsut the half of my post

1. i explained 2 different tactics how to counter
2. i didnt said there is no defensive capability in MTW,
ur points are true, but near useless, its nice if the units run faster uphill and slower downhill and its nice that missles shoot wider, BUT this is useless in such situation, the archer hurt a bit more...well thats near nothing, so its true but i dont change much
i saidi cant explain it all, it would take too much time. so i decided to explain, some of the best tactics in this situation.
3. he couldnt win with jsut 12 of his units, he hardly won with his 16 vs my 12, so with 12 he would lsot anyway.
i just showed, thats its (like arcade game) very important what units u buy and that some units are very overpowered.

ther is a "deph" about the basics and the controlling skill, but its much more important to buy the good units and how fast u can click the units. Its just impossible to win with a blanced army vs a good setup, as long the players are both at the same skilllevel.

maybe we play different games, but as long i dont feel much advance if u or i hideon a hill, than i would say, the hillbonusses are near zero, again ur points are true, but with near useless shooters wich can shoot wider, it change nothing. if u hit 5 men of 1000 or hit 10 on a longer distance makes just no difference.
and if the defender can be faster, what helps it?

he has to sit on his hill or he give up his "advance", so if he is faster or not makes no difference, ofcourse he could flank a bit faster, but this is something u can easy compansate with saved flanks...

this combat moralbonuss, hmmm if its there i dont notice it
at least i wold say its not important, i tested some hillattacks vs very good players in MTW and STW and in MTW a normal hill is same like flat area
still bigger hills are easy to attack, lets say too easy.

If crand would played better, i agree with u, than he should attack with just 12 units.

My example is this....

to create a feelable difference u should be able to win with 40% of ur units vs 60 or 70% of the enemy unit in a frontal fight. i just speak about numeric numbers. the bonusses are to big that this is possbile right now.

i have some very nice movies in my "topsecret" castle...under my bed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
where u can easy see how u can spoil everything.
the mainproblems are still the fatique and the routin-in-all-directins. (i wont speak about realistic, as long the most units are not realistic)

imo, it should be possible to win alone vs 2 armys, this was something i always loveed in STW, the possibility....u could win with ur skill. nowu get hit in ur back by the fatique and the not avalaible defensiv points. so the game is reduced to an all the time 2d game and....just-be-offensiv-and-make-it-fast.

plz do me a favor and read it correct and all, and fogive me some of my english mistakes.

koc

Crandaeolon

12-04-2002, 16:21

Thanks for the discussion, Koc and Yuuki. Yes, I'm a very nice guy, sometimes even _too_ nice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif And Yuuki, "Cran" is fine. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have no trouble understanding your posts Koc, your english skill is more than sufficient.

Koc, yer right, but what 12 units should I have attacked with then, if I had played better? And remember that I had 4 arbs that did not charge, so technically I _did_ attack with "only" 12 units.

And Yuuki... what 4 of my units could I have left in reserve to check the 4 knights, even if I had played perfectly? Some of my cav? That would take at least 3, leaving Koc's other cav uncountered. Spears? I needed those spears to screen off and destroy Koc's other cav. I could not have won the initial fight without them. Swords? Perhaps, but as I had 6 swords (360 men) against Koc's 4 Order Foot (400 men... if there were 4 Order Foot. I can't remember for sure, please correct me if I'm wrong Koc?) _and_ his remaining pav arbs (perhaps 200 men) in the forest, I don't think I could have won that fight with less than 5 swords. Moreover, that forest made my cavalry far less useful against his footmen.

I believe that even between players of equal skill, the one playing with my forces and using the tactics I described in the earlier post could not have won. Actually, I think that even on a steppe map my army would have lost against a player of equal skill. And I think that was what you meant in your post, Koc.

Back to the "newbie to vet" -issue...

I'm not really very convinced about the need to play 5000-10000 games to become very good. Let's see... an average of 2 games an hour, 8 hours of playing _every_ _day_ would make 11680 games in 2 years. And that's basically if one plays Shog or MTW for a _living_. How long has Shogun been out? If someone really has played 10000+ games, then kudos to him for his dedication

I still think that the games required to reach the 'vet' limit varies a lot from person to person. After all, there have been chess child prodigies who have beaten grandmasters, right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

12-04-2002, 16:42

any noob can beat any vet and in mtw these changes are perhaps even bigger. after all there are some random items in teh game when units fight.

there are 100 needed for a talented new player to speak of as "skilled"
but a 1000 are needed to become a top ranked player.

the difference in skill between 1000 or 5000 doesnt mean much but can tip the balance.

i remember a topranked player in teh days my Khan started to play as well, this player visited shoggy and mi once in a while and also twm but it was clear that the skill amongst the most players became more solid than it ever was.

and then there is also a group of player who will never learn/improve, even after thousands of games. for those where some of them show respect to the more talented players our khan respect them as well and is always willingly to give them hints to improve things within their range of skill ofcourse.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Crandaeolon

12-04-2002, 17:01

Yeah Cham (or actually Mag, of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif), ya summed it up pretty well. But as Koc said, quality of the games is important too. The best games to "teach" one are 1vs1's against a player of equal or better skill. Those large team battles don't teach as much, and they teach entirely different skills like teamwork, which sadly is not very common in public games.

Cheetah

12-04-2002, 17:13

Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ Dec. 03 2002,06:58)]just an example, with this "tactic" u never will loose

save 3 or 4 V0 knight and fight just with 12 units, maybe u will loose, but the saved, fresh 4 knights will run over the tired enemy units this spoil every game away
Koc, I dont think that keeping fresh reserves is a game spoiler or a dirty trick. I real life it could be equally decisive whether you have fresh reserves or not. And, as you said, it can be countered easily, just keep your own fresh knights in reserve. To, me this just adds more depth to the game. Shall I keep reserves? What units? When shall I commit them to the attack? etc. These are not obvious questions, and as you have observed, players in general dont know the importance of it. But this observation cannot be used to argue that keeping reserves is a dirty trick. I am sure that after a while folks will realise the importance of this and that it will add aditional depth to the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Cheetah

Puzz3D

12-04-2002, 17:15

Kocmoc,

I did read all of your post 3 times, but there must be some miscommunication.

When you say, "U have to be offensiv the whole time, u cant hide or take any defensiv position.", is that not saying there is no defensive capability? I don't see it that way. I see that my whole army can take a defensive posture. In your followup post you say, "so the game is reduced to an all the time 2d game and....just-be-offensiv-and-make-it-fast.", but you do clarify and say, "u should be able to win with 40% of ur units vs 60 or 70% of the enemy unit in a frontal fight.".

Do you mean on flat ground or with a hill? I'm thinking you must mean with a hill because I don't see how 4 units could possibly beat 6 or 7 units on flat ground. The problem I see with large downhill combat bonus is that most players don't put only part of their army up on the hill. They put the whole army up there, and you know what a big problem hill camping was in STW. That's why most players would only play flat maps in 1v1. In bigger 3v3 and 4v4 STW games, you could successfully attack big hills if the attackers could double team one defender.

You're statement, "imo, it should be possible to win alone vs 2 armys". Under what conditions? I think it is possible to do it, but the two armies have to be poorly commanded. The routing in all direction makes it harder to chase down routed units, and, if you are trying to chase 32 units with 16, then of course you can't chase them all off. Why should the battle be over after the initial rout anyway? Armies would charge, be thrown back, reform and charge again and sometimes win. The game is already close to being a rout fest, and I've had my whole army rout because a single allied unit near me routed. Also, I remember in STW that the routing in one direction was considered a flaw in the game by just about everyone. As I recall, most players wanted a routing unit to run away from the threat.

Maybe you mean you can beat two armies by establishing a strong defensive position, but isn't this just another way of saying that the hill bonus is too big? I know defensive positions were difficult to successfully attack historically, but attacker and defender have the same florins in this game. If you want a big hill bonus and play equal florins in 1v1, doesn't this create the same problem that we had in STW? By beating two armies, do you mean they each have 1/2 the florins? If so, I think that's just a trick because the weaker units in the two armies will chain rout. When I played that way, I always advised the players with the two armies to take 8 units each because they would then have better units which would be less likely to rout.

I know you gave advice to Crandaeolon about his battle which was very nice of you , but you also left it up in the air with "i could speak about this some hours there are so many possible solution and tactics this is just impossible to explain.". Impossible? Is the game so deep that it's really impossible to explain the tactics? You overlooked an obvious advice which was to move into the trees. It seems to me that battle is a good example of wrong army for the job unless there were a lot of trees on the map.

Arbalesters are quit good ranged units and they gain an advantage on higher ground. The weakness of archers is a different issue, but I think killing 10 men instead of 3 does make a difference. The problem with archers is, as you say, they don't earn their cost in ranged kills. They are better in hand to hand fighting if you play at high enough florins to afford some upgrades for them.

The fact that Crandaeolon couldn't beat your 12 units with 12 of his own is an issue of playing skill. He would have to get better. (I just noticed you said the same thing.)Compensating for a skill difference by using more units just falls into a tactical trap where the player doesn't have enough fresh units to counter the enemy's reserve units. A player may eventually get to a skill level where he is able to engage the enemy with fewer units and have a free unit or two to flank with. I guess you want to use the hill bonus to get that situation, but it seems to me that an attacker who goes up against your 4 units with his 6 or 7 and fails to carry the hill has simply underestimated the hill bonus. Better would be to go after your strike force, and force the 4 units to come off the hill unless, of course, the strike force is also on a hill. I'm not saying the hill bonus in MTW shouldn't be better, but I thought it was rather strong in STW for 1v1 games. As I say, big games had double teaming to compensate for it.

I agree with you that the unbalance in the units makes it necessary to buy the better units unless you want to play at a disadvantage. Sometimes I do that, but I don't want to neglect developing my game using my regular units either. I think trying to balance all these units and factions so that all are equally useful is a tremendous amount of work. You are also up against the reality that many players want unbalaned unit so thay can find the best unit and get an advantage over less informed players.

Using better knowledge of the morale system or hill bonuses or flank bonuses or numerical superiority bonuses or formations is the same thing. When I sit down to play chess, I don't play against opponents who don't understand how the pieces move. You can come to this understanding about MTW by playing many many battles and never thinking about the underlying mechanics. You can speed up this process by combining playing with study of the game mechanics. Right now there is no ladder so people are basically just practicing or playing for fun, but I hope CA will make the game data available as they said they would so that those who want to play for a rating can do that.

Cheetah

12-04-2002, 17:25

Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ Dec. 04 2002,05:43)]teambattles near never bring any skill or knowledge.
I respectfully disagree http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It depends only on you. If you want to learn you can learn. You can learn even from the most horrible team battles. You can learn from wins and you can learn from defeats; but most of all you can learn from AMP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Besides, where do you think those 3 good RTKs acquired their skills? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Of course a few good 1v1 can do no harm, and arguably without being good in 1v1 games you cannot be a "top" player if that is what you mean.

Swoosh So

12-04-2002, 17:43

Heh i remember i copied one of amps armies for a while ( turns out he was only using it because it was easier to control when he was playing 2 shogun games online on different computers at the same time The army worked pretty well for me tho http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

12-04-2002, 17:48

hmmm kocmoc must be sleepy at that moment, teambattles do bring any knowledge. but maybe he is referring to the mass 4 vs 4 where everyone is just deploying and rushing around. teambattles as in clanbattles or teams where u know each other will bring knowledge. clanteams are a way to pass some knowledge to the younger wolves, and its likely other clans do this as well.

Crandaeolon

12-04-2002, 17:49

I'd be very grateful if someone could (re)read my earlier post where I offered an explanation on how even a player of skill equal to Kocmoc's could not have won that battle with the forces I listed (barring of course the randomness that's always present in battles), and comment on it.

Yuuki, as Koc said, unit selection played a larger part than skill, although skill _did_ play a part of course.

Yes Cheetah, indeed having some knights would have helped, but there simply weren't any. Leaving a similar reserve from one's opponent would put the focus on the "main" battle; if the reserves are the same, the winner of the "main" battle has automatically a stronger position, as he simply has more forces left.

Oh well, as a result of all this I developed a counterstrategy all my own, and in the one battle I tested it, it worked. I'd be glad to try it against a better player. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

12-04-2002, 18:00

line up 10 vets in old shog or mi and our khan beat at least 3 of them with his fun army.
in mtw he will not defeat a single one.

the fun part of previous versions were that even an ood balanced army of maybe weaker units in teh hands of the skilled could bring a win. now my khan must prey on teh weak to get fun and exciting battles with 7 horsearchers.

Kocmoc

12-04-2002, 18:14

well u can learn from the guys who beats AMP as well, or not?

thx puzz, nice post and u got me right with this hill.
i agree with u on near all ur points.

let me explain 1 thing.

what i want, and the most others too) is that ur skill deiced about the outcome, but the skill is now less important, still u need some but it got more important to know some loopwholes and the better units.

this is MTW i know it and i like this game, but its good and easy for me to compare to STW and pick the good and bad things. In STW i could win vs this campers on hills, ifu speak about amp, well we had some games where he was defender and camped in the corner...

u can win u can always win, but its hard and u need a lot of patience to win. if i speak about u vs 2 armys i mean that ur ally droped and u kick the 2 armys wich have 1:2 amound of cash. u can jsut do it if u create a chainrout and
move them outa. with this alldirection routing it got very hard or near impossible. and the fatique dont help u much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

to defensiv play, u listed the faster downhill fight and the longer range for shooters and some moralbonuss for fighting downhill. Is there any more bonusses?
i think no, so if u look at the tetails, u can say that this bonusses are jsut to small to give u a real advance.

correct the peoples move to flat maps, so why they still play flat maps now? they could easy play on hilly maps and wont have so many problems and there is no ladder.
we got this florindifference for the host, thats something we wanted for this defending-hill-maps. It dont get used, or very less. i just see no difference to make the hillbonusses bigger.
the most games will still be played on flat maps, so no difference.
some will crack some hillcampers and this will be fun for this guys.
some will defend and use less florin to make it fair.

so all will still be happy and some will just be much happyer right now, it can just become better.
I think about clancampains as well, where the hilly maps are very important, as a defensiv spot, this aspect is important for this campains as well.

i understand that some things are hard to change, but at this point we dont have disadvances, we jsut have advances.

to crand:

well, here is another possible tactic wich can be used, this needs a lot of patience but it works for me if i face a hard guy.
u have to create the need for ur enemy to attack u, this ucan just produce if u make his ammo empty. so bring just 3 of ur 4 arbas and try to make me empty or at least near empty, save 1 arba and move this unit later in stretch it in 1 row or 2 with openformation and u will create advance, as i get empty... so i have to draw back or hide or i attack u.... it depends on ur enemy.

what i tryed to say is, u didnt had a chance from start, just with lot of luck u could have win. u choose a bad setup and used it wrong, in some points...
u need spears or more cav, how u like u can counter my knights with spears or with the same units....

1 more possible tactic would be, to move slow 2 spears, saved by 2 knight or any other cav, to my 4 knights and circle and press so i had to move...ur army has to be closer as my army to this 4 knight...so u dont have to fight,u jsut press and make me move where u want me.
than after some mins of play u can be sure, that my knights behind or nearby my mainarmy and u could attacked, my moral 8 knights would be effected by routing and couldnt be saved somewhere, they will get a bit tired as well by moving this whole time, ur unarmored units, like spears wont be so fast tired how my spears....

u had alancav, another hint....(i have to stop this soon or become seniormember, by al lthis helping..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif )
we can test it or if u ask nicely, i will send u 1 of my train-movies, ur alan vs my powerknights.

hats all for now, as i said i cant explain it all, i just said that i wont write some hours about the possible ways, coz al lwhat i said here, jsut work if i do the same like in the game we played, but i will react as well, so this wont work as long i counter ur plan....

in winter i normaly dont work, so i played in STW times 14 hours a day and did around 20 - 30 games per day in the hot times, in MTW i played around 400 battles till now, but if i see some online guys (i check several times per day about gamespy) i think we have already new players, who played around 1000 games.

koc

PS: its hard to write so much all the time, with my handicaped english http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Puzz3D

12-04-2002, 18:27

Cran,

Well I wasn't there but, an MAA should beat an Order Foot. If you are fighting spears in trees there is even more advantage to the swords, and the trees offer the swords good protection from cav. Your 6 swords should be able to handle the 4 Order Foot and arbs in the trees. Don't send cav into the trees unless your are desperate. Use a spear and two cav to guard your flanks from the two groups of 4 mounted knights. You could shift all your cav to the threatened flank if one of the knight groups stays far away. Bring your arbs up close behind to provide morale support to your fighting units and morale penalty on the enemy units. It might be necessary to face to arbs toward a threatened flank. They need to be in hold formation so they don't move around.

Once the enemy units in the trees rout, chase them with two cav if you can. Keep the MAA in the trees. Protect your arbs with your spears, and, hopefully, the arbs still have ammo. Manuever the arbs to shoot at the cav reserve. Ultimately, you cannot really attack the cav reserve if they stay out or reach. Some of the enemy units will rally, and may pose a renewed threat. The MAA are pratically useless against the cav in hth in the open unless they can attack a cav that's not charging. All you can do now is retrieve all your chasers, form up your army and walk around trying to corner the enemy cav.

The problem with all of this is that you have too many MAA for the job which leaves you short on units to counter the 8 cav. I like to have at least one spear for every two enemy cav units. If I were AMP, I could get away with a lower spear to cav ratio. Very likely you could loose the flank to the 4 non-reserve mounted knights because a minmum of resources is committed to holding that flank. If that flank folds you would probably loose right there. A significant disadvantage of infantry based armies is that they cannot successfully chase off the cav that they rout, but that cav will chase down routing infantry very effectively. If the enemy cav reserve is far away during the initial attack, you might get away with sending both spears and some of your cav to the threatened flank keeping your general centralized for maximum morale support and safety. Don't underestimate the tactic of purposefully undermannig a flank to entice and attack, but be ready to respond quickly with reinforcements if the attack comes.

Because of the fairly fragile overall morale, I'm not a big advocate of splitting forces. It's unfortunate that the morale is where it is. In WE/MI v103, the morale is sufficiently high that you can advance on wonderfully broad fronts (I'm not talking about units in thin wide lines), and the speed of cav is high enough to allow them to close down on a threat swiftly. There are more possible angles of attack when you can spread out without fear that your center will collapse due to a local morale inferiority.

MagyarKhans Cham

12-04-2002, 18:31

pickingh units is a part of the game tho,but i know what u mean orlok kocmic. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

i know my khan helped tons of people but stopped doing it but i know he is happy with his avatar.

Cheetah

12-04-2002, 18:56

Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ Dec. 04 2002,11:14)]well u can learn from the guys who beats AMP as well, or not?
Yes, of course. Who are they? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

PS. I was refering to the fact that AMP is always ready to play "mass 4v4 games".

Puzz3D

12-04-2002, 19:46

Cheetah,

LadyAnn beat AMP's 4v4 camp and rout tactic. I'll be posting the replay after I check with her about the title.

Kocmoc,

I'm not aware of any other hill bonuses. The morale bonus is -2 to the unit that is lower. It's not a big number, but it has a big effect if the unit routs before it wins the fight.

The routing in all directions is chaotic, but the routing in one direction is artificial. It lead to all kinds of bizarre "tactics" to take advantage of it. MTW battles often have a second phase to them where the rallied units reform as an army and fight again. You're not seriously suggesting that the game mechanics be changed so that you can win 2v2's after your ally drops are you? Those games are ruined by the drop even if they are played out to the end. I mean ruined in the sense that they bear no resemblance to how the battle would have progressed if the player hadn't dropped.

I think now you have a decision to make about whether to chase or not and, if so, how far to chase. The farther you chase the more fatigued and more spread out your units become. It's an important decision. It also means that the tactic of camping on a hill in a 4v4 and chain routing the enemy armies when they make the final assault doesn't end the battle. The camper can chain rout the attackers, but it's dangerous for him leave the hill to pursue. In STW it was "game over" because the routers could all be swept away the way you would sweep dust into a dustpan. I'm personnaly glad that someone who lets his allies die (I don't mean you) isn't guranteed a win with that tactic anymore.

Cheetah

12-04-2002, 20:27

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Dec. 04 2002,12:46)]LadyAnn beat AMP's 4v4 camp and rout tactic. I'll be posting the replay after I check with her about the title.
Did she? ... oh, who cannot? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif you see Annie, I am just jelaous http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I cannot wait to see the replay. The title should be no problem, it must be short and concise, like "LadyAn's big victory over AMP" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ( the http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif is for AMP)

Crandaeolon

12-04-2002, 21:42

Quote[/b] ]
Well I wasn't there but, an MAA should beat an Order Foot. If you are fighting spears in trees there is even more advantage to the swords

Yup Yuuki, they did beat the Orders. And, I was also asking if 5 swords (300 men) could have done the trick against 400 spearmen and 200 arbalesters. I can't remember what valour those Orders or Arbs were, of course that affected things too.

Are you sure about the disadvantage spears have in forests? I think I can remember some discussion about the subject, and at least some claimed the spears do _not_ lose their rank bonuses (entirely?) in forest, and that it would be sort of a bug.

Basically I used similar tactics to what you described for the rest of the battle, except for hiding the MAA in the trees (I thought of it, but didn't bother) and I could not attack those knights in reserve, as they were deployed too far away.

Quote[/b] ]PS: its hard to write so much all the time, with my handicaped english lol Koc, take a break then Ya must be careful about that senior member thing anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I'll need some action, too, instead of all this writing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Kocmoc

12-04-2002, 21:47

rankbonusses are useless, u better stretch ur spears. it givesu more advance than the rankbonuss.

....short info.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Puzz3D

12-04-2002, 22:14

Kocmoc,

No problem using loopholes in my games undercover. If we see a "loophole" tactic, maybe we can find a counter tactic for it.

Puzz3D

12-04-2002, 23:57

Cran,

While the 5 MAA should be able to handle it, what would you do with the other MAA? I'd say the best use of the 6th MAA would be to go after the units it could defeat, and thus win by a bigger margin. Maybe flank with that extra unit if possible, and have it in position to cut down the routers which would mean less chasing for you and fewer enemies coming back later. You could hold the 6th MAA back from the initial assault until the fighting line became stabilized, and then send it to flank the Order Foot. That would make it available for help on your own flank if needed up until the time you sent it into the trees.

I don't know about the rank bonus in trees still functioning. That would be a bug. Even so, you had the best matchup there and couldn't improve on that. I have seen cav fail miserably in trees against MAA, so I think that penalty on cav by trees is working.

The option of taking the regular arb over the pavise arb is resonable if you want the faster army, and are going to move to the attack fairly quickly. Unfortunatley, the money saved doesn't buy you much of anything on the infantry or cav units.

LadyAnn

12-05-2002, 00:09

With all respect Sir MizuYuuki, are you trying to put me in front and make me the target of AMP? I lost to him countless times (I didn't keep track of them and I am sure he didn't bother keep track of how many times he win against I) and I consider it was a lucky win that day.

BTW, I just played yesterday and lost against him. Looking back at yesterday's game, I think I made too many mistakes and you know that only a single mistake is deadly... I was trying to bait his cav, but my flanking horses went too far, my spears are in disarray, my infantry marches too far to the front and get slaughtered by his cav, my arb are left standing alone and I took revenge on his out-of-ammo serpentines...

Amp: Promise you won't hate me? Please Please Please?

Annie
ps.: Many people underestimate me a bit. I am not saying Amp ever do that to anyone, but I am trying to keep low profile, OK (**ducking serpentine projectiles**)

AMPage

12-05-2002, 00:53

LadyAnn,

I promise i won't hate you and make you a target of mine. I don't hate anyone really just those that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif me off, but that's part of gaming and something you gotta deal with. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I don't keep track of games. I had to (re)read your post twice just to remmeber that game, or is that just bad memory? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Also, nice job you did with the **ducking serpentine projectiles** i think i only got 200 kills at most with them. I had 8 serps so that's pretty bad. I was gonna fire my serp crew after the game for poor aiming, but your cavalry took care of them, thanks. Your tatics were a bit shakey, having units come at me little by little, never a good thing. My tatics weren't so hot either, well they never are now since i can't play with lag like the old days. I was also expermenting with weapons and armor, if you noticed my cavalry all had valor 0. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Btw, i lose tons of games, so i wouldn't consider myself a top player anymore. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif