Fight the Purple Windmill

[LadyAnn]

Let me play the role of Don Quixote (actually, never read the entire book of Cervante's Don Quixote yet, will do one day) fighting the Purple Windmill. The Purple Windmill is the Byzantine army, which is in vogue at the moment.

Let me tell you that I am perhaps commiting a faux-pas by only play Byzantine on two occasions, both because my allies are taking Byzantine color and I wanted to "paint the town purple". That and the doctrine of never take seige weapons to a 3x3 or 4x4 may make me look like a Victorian lady (the 19th century kind, not the contemporary Secret style).

Back to the topic: how to beat Byzantine Army without fielding one yourself?

The answer perhaps is different depending on different scenarios. The variables are:
1. Era. The combination of Byz.Inf. and Var.Grd. is only in early and high era, the Var. Guard is not available in Late era. And in Late Era, we have the Handgunners too. There are other units that may be used against the Purple Force, depending on availability.

2. Terrain. Byz. is notoriously weak in Desert, being a non-mulsim faction. Byz. also is in disadvantage on a large map because of strong Infantry and weak cav. Also, Byz. army get tired very fast.

3. Faction. The availability of units depend on the type of factions. The Almohads has the Urban Elmo (Almohad Urban Militia) which has same cost of better stat that Byz.Inf.
The Egyptians can out-flank Byzantines at ease (given equally skilled generals). The Turks has many units that can both shoot arrows and give a decent fight. The Catholic factions may use better cavalry to counter better infantry (Lancers of Spain come to mind). Even Russian may give Byzantine Army problem with the Boyars, with shoot and run tactics.

4. Tactics. Some are already mentioned above. Here are some more: know how to take advantage of terrain, how to avoid rush (orderly withdrawal), how to "hold down and flank", how to "kill Protoiai and Kataphractoi", etc. are tactics I have seen used against Byz. Inf.

Annie is not claiming the expert generalship and perhaps good generals dress in Purple would beat me. But they would beat me using any other army anyways. Quoting MagyarKhan after a victory of his against I, using Russian army: "how weaker should I make my army to make it more challenging?" The point here is to find ways to make the game more interesting.

Annie will write the next post talking about "handgunners".

Annie

[LadyAnn]

"What? Handgunners? What hangunners do in an anti-byz. discussion?"

After you clean up the food or coffee or whatever you spill on the table, let's reassure that the use of handgunners are not a secret to many veteran generals.

Here is the stat of the Handgunner:

Available in Late, costs 175/60, same speed as Byz. Inf., 1/1/3 combat, 4 armour, 4 morale. Gun doesn't shoot in the rain, gun has accuracy of 0.05, but lethality of 4.0 and armour modifier of 1.0. Range is point blank (2000), and has 10 bullets. Guns cause fear, reduce enemy's morale.

Handgunners have a decent combat stats, not as good as Byz. Inf. (3/2/(2+2)), but it is a decent stat. The OrderFoot has stat of (5/0/(3+2)) in comparison.

The trick is that Handgunners follows the cheaper upgrade path of missile units. A max out on valeur Byz.Inf. has combat stat if 3/6/8 with honour of 8. A max out Handgunners has 1/5/7 with honour of 12, with money to spare for weapon upgrade or else where.

Remember that handguns cannot fire in the rain, so arid and desert map is better for gun use.

Handgun cannot reload during movement, so you should order handguns to hold ground when standing against Byz charge. Handguns has low charge bonus, so don't use them to charge Byz.Inf.

Don't use handguns the way you use archers or abalester. Handguns are better be treated as a unit of swords, away from enemy's fire, protected from cavalry raids.

Although handguns doesn't have great accuracy, and at range of 2000, it would only give 1 shot before receiving the impact of the enemy. But the shot reduce Byz. Inf. morale, which is already one of the lowest. With the decent combat stat, the handgunners may still hold long enough for your flanking maneuver, or having your defense line step up to the frontline.

(Thanks to UglyElmo for the idea of using handgunners as combat troops.)

Annie

[Magyar Khan]

hmm wasnt that An with one n? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[LadyAnn]

It was, MagyarKhan, same and only. A confusion at registration time makes the variation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Annie

[Alrowan]

just use cavalry to march over them. Byz's biggest letdown is that they dont fare too well against lots of cavalry.. my 2 cents

[LadyAnn]

Urban Elmo (Almohad Urban Militia, not to be confused with the general UglyElmo) can beat Barney (the 100 kg purple "thing").

Urban Elmo, at comparable costs (200/60), has better combat stat of 3/3/(3+1) and 2 morale. The slightly higher morale and melee would mean the Urban Elmo has slightly better edge, despite the 60/100 numerical deficit.

The Almohad also has some Suicide Bombers (Naphta Thrower) that would scare away Barneys.

Annie

[bosdur]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Dec. 09 2002,16:34)]Urban Elmo (Almohad Urban Militia, not to be confused with the general UglyElmo) can beat Barney (the 100 kg purple "thing").


Annie
At equal valor and head-on ? byzantine infantry beats aum

[LadyAnn]

Exploiting the low morale of Byz.Inf.

Byz. Inf. has base morale of 0. Even maxed out, Byz. Inf. only has morale of 8. That means Byz.Inf. found safety in numbers. And when one of them route, the rest will have morale penalty and will likely to route as well.

Things that make them worry:
1. be shot at or thrown grenade at;
2. be shot at by guns or artillery;
3. be flanked;
4. be reared;
5. be flanked or reared by cavalry (even worst);
6. general is not near by, killed, capture or ran away (draw the enemy general away from his infantry if you could)
7. mass of enemy is at flank (more than 45 degrees from where the Barneys are heading to);
8. Fatigue.
9. Casualty (even when the units are winning);
10. Friend runs. (Attack his friends from the other direction so his friends would rout into him);
11. Other Byz.Inf. nearby runs (so concentrate on making 1 of them route, instead of fighting evenly on all of them).

Is there another way to make Barney runs? Tell me Barney needs exercise.

Annie

[Alrowan]

fatigue is a big one with byz inf, they tend to get tired quickly as generals use them an aweful lot, running here there and everywhere, cavalry armies almost always beat byz inf

[Knight_Yellow]

last time i checked byz inf are diciplined?

so many ppl waste up to 5 units killing there general for nuthing, those 5 units could have been flanking or patching holes in the lines. one good thing i have noticed if u take catapults when defending they kill alot of men and cause panic so byz inf fold when taking catapult fire and being charged by militia and feudal knights (valour 4 militia seargents only 1000 florins and r fast for inf), so take 4 units and deploy them at one side of ur army send ur knights and men at arms etc head on and then quikly run round a flank and just go up the line picking off 1 unit at a time.

[Postino]

really guys,m shut up about killing the byz inf. i've gotten routed plenty of times. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

i do play them alot though, i just like infantry armies. egypt also has a good foot unit: Newbs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . they do have poor morale and i usually send some high valor spears to the same area with them for more staying power. when they rout, they all rout. if you chase they will not rally. i have only ever gotten 1 rally out of a byz inf. at valor 3 or 4.

and a side not: every one underrates byz cav(mabey just too busy worrying about the inf and vag's) 2 val2 byz cav wil chew up a val4 Alan, at alittle more florin, you also get missiles.

[Dionysus9]

All this is fine and good, but what do you do when I bring:

4 varang
4 pronoiai
4 pavise
4 alancavs

You were expecting to fight byz inf and i bring something totally different....heheh...I've been doing well with that setup.

[BomilkarDate]

Or what about a byz Army defending? The Inf does not get tired. Barney has 3 Arbs 2 Catapults, 4 spears, 4 byz inf, 3 pronoi allegion? U cannot shoot out even if he only got 2 arbs, the artillery is too strong, so you got to rush, as a late attack will only weaken you. Good luck in rushing a byzantine army. He got enough spears to care for your cav and at least 400 barneys.

[Orda Khan]

Set the Russians on them they don't like the Russians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

.......Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Puzz3D]

BomilkarDate,

How about 4 Chiv Knights, 2 Feudal Knights, 4 FMAA, 4 Chiv MAA and 2 Foot Knights or something along those lines?

[kyodai-britishbeef]

I have recently beaten a v.good player (no names but have replay ) who was the byz , so i chose the english and my army was :

3 arbs, 6 mounted sargeants, 4 cmaa and 3 fmaa

(my aim was to hold byz inf with my maa and flank with cav, i had all amy valour 2, and my cav beat the enemy cav whilst maa held well then i outflanked the purple mass and reared them with my cav ..... and woopee away the ran http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

hope this helps

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (BomilkarDate @ Dec. 10 2002,10:28)]Or what about a byz Army defending? The Inf does not get tired. Barney has 3 Arbs 2 Catapults, 4 spears, 4 byz inf, 3 pronoi allegion? U cannot shoot out even if he only got 2 arbs, the artillery is too strong, so you got to rush, as a late attack will only weaken you. Good luck in rushing a byzantine army. He got enough spears to care for your cav and at least 400 barneys.
In my opinion rushing artillery is suicidal. Any good player who takes artillery knows it is likely to panic the attacker and solicit a rush. If your enemy is expecting a rush, you are already at a disadvantage.

I prefer to wait him out. Line up in a single thin line at the edge of his range and let him waste ammunition until he is out.

Sure, your kill ratio bar is going to be all red by the time you get around to attacking him. You may never get back to a positive ratio, but that's not the point. Someone who takes artillery has less men than you. If you have 100 man units then he has to kill 100 men per artillery to justify the unit slot he used (i say wasted). It is rare for catapults to get 100 kills--especially if you keep your distance.

Don't let artillery goad you into a rush (unless of course you can easily win a rush). Artillery is an advantage in the opening, but a disadvantage in the endgame (normally).

Try holding your ground and making him waste ammo.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

The defender doesn't have to shoot at your thin line bait. Of course, if you used your general you'd draw some fire. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[LadyAnn]

Yea, in a game, I asked myself "Why do they shoot at my poor arbalesters, in 2 rows, scattered?" I took a glance behind (A hassle to rotate the camera) and saw the reason why: My poor arbs. are standing in front of an ally's general. Needless to say I hurried to get these arbs into cover at a forest.

My other tactic is to zigzag around. It may not improve the kill rate, but confuse the culverin crews http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I found that artillery would scares someone not used to it (I was one of those, for a while, I was trying to rush the artillery), but more experienced generals would see that the number of kills per artillery slot is not high at all. (unless it got lucky at a general).

Yuuki:

Many artillery fans would waste ammo on anything. Of course, the good one wait and wait...

Annie

[Nobunaga0611]

I think the best way to make artillery less effective against you is just as LadyAnn said. Lateral movement makes artillery less effective, since they have to reposition, and don't have the benefit of firing on a stationary object for an extended period of time. Even if you bring artillery and your enemy is moving laterally, you can still effectively target the units, though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Dionysus9]

So what you are saying is, lateral movement is effective, but its not.

Hmmm... yes, I see.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[LadyAnn]

I and Nobunaga didn't say that it is effective by zig-zagging, ( dancing around I guess, not too much, cause it is tiresome). We only claim that it confuses the average gunners. Like the zebra running around, confuse a hack out of the lions.

Annie

[Knight_Yellow]

Well i dont take cannons for lotsa reasons there expensive they dont kill anything and just dont have enough ammo plus for every cannon uve got u could have had 60 or even 100 men.

However when defending i always take 4 val4 catapults and let my enemy cum into range then let rip with me telling my catapults who to shoot they easily kill 10 to 15 men each with every round and more often than not get the enemy gen.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
just remembered i thought the byz today and took 4 val4 catapults and yeah they where killing them but theykept cumming however AVP i think it was moved his gen too close and with the first round aimed at him it took his gens head clean off, unfortunatley when i returned my attention to his byz inf my catapult round landed right on top of my gen but maraculously my men didnt rout http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif they instead whent on to flank the enemy and get over a 1000 routers lol

[BomilkarDate]

If you zigzag around for the time the enemy pults are firing, you will loose the game against any non-newb player. You ll lose many men and even worse, your men get dead tired. Waiting on the edge of range in a single line wont work against non newbs either. And btw, a pult does not have to kill 100 men to be effective. It has to kill a) as much florins what it easily can do or b) kill some 100 men units down on lets say 75 men, because you will be able to knock out those units easily and you can mass rout the rest off the enemies army.

[LadyAnn]

Zig zag doesn't mean you are running around http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
You need to move from point A to point B anyways. Zigzag is a different way the army go. Do you think I will do a fashion parade in front of you for nothing? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Usually, I move from the place where I am to the place where his ally is, to double on that ally. The one with cannon is forced to make a choice: help his friend, or camp. Help his friend, no one will defend his prize-prossession. Camp, he will have 1 less friend in his ally after the game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I am not saying I would win against experienced players. But most good and experienced players will win against I, artillery or not, so it is not the point. The point is: can a newbee afford to bring artillery http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Now you mention about cost. Serpentines are not cheap. Will it justify the cost (kill more than 50% of a unit)? I never have more than 10% of my army lost to cannons, even when they brought 4 of them. A cannon ball would kill perhaps 5, usually about 1 or 2 men.

Ok, don't challenge me on a 1x1, I never am good at 1x1. No ally to blame for defeat, no ally to save me when things get tough, etc.

What about attackers who brought cannons? Defenders simply wait...
Annie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Magyar Khan]

all should not forget ever piece of artillery take up a valuable unitslot as well.

[Puzz3D]

Edit in some custom armor and I think the fasion show idea would be a nice touch. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Since I play in high period, the catapult is the artillery unit I usually face. You can see AMP using 4 v2 (651 florin) catapults from a hill in the LaPucelle replay. We waited until the catapults were out of ammo before making the final assault. Only La Pucelle had enough sense to take evasive measures by going to loose formation and moving. Those catapults killed 38 + 41 + 71 + 58 = 208. AMP's army totaled 720 men. My typical army is 960 men. The difference is 960 - 208 = 752. Since this was a 15K florin game, the average unit cost is 937 florins, so the 651 florin v2 catapults were effective relative to their cost. If that had been a 1v1, my army would have been reduced to equal numbers with AMP's, suffer from lowered morale due to the casualties and possibly have less florins per hand-to-hand unit depending on what ranged units I had purchased. So, I would say going to loose formation is warranted, and doing some moving might be good since artillery weapons have to aquire the target. Higher valor artillery aquires the target with fewer rounds, although, if the artillery is shooting into a large mass of troops, it probably doesn't make a difference.

My own feeling is that developing tactics that work on newbies is a waste of effort. It doesn't help you beat the better players, and it doesn't help the newbie learn sound tactics either.

[Kraxis]

I always go to Loose if I'm under fire from arty, and I try to move my general around so he won't get killed, but bad things happen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Catapults are nasty as they can only fire so far, but they can cause much mayhem if you charge in, so you almost have to wait them out. Cannons can fire all over the map and are as such very inaccurate (and expensive) at the start when they fire long shots. So they are easier to wait out than catapults.

[LadyAnn]

I have the habit at setup time now: unless I expect a rush from the opponent (being setting up very close to the front and my allies are far away) I would hit "L" after the setup. I can always hit "C" anytime afterward, but I will not have the surprises.

Annie

[Knight_Yellow]

am i the only person who when taking catapults doesnt put them on fire at will its a waste i wait for the enemy to get too close to back off and then i send my inf right into them with my catapults hitting units all along there lines this usualy routs them since catapults cause fear. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[TenkiSoratoti]

Yes i played with byzantines the other day and have kept with them, they are magnificent but i dont see what the problem is. I used to play with Germans and ran over the byz like ants, they have no real advantage its just someone making an excuse for losing against them.
And we all do it

[baz]

no question, byz inf are the best florin for florin unit test it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif