Fatigue Vs +2 Morale

[1dread1lahll]

I know Maggy is pushing for an increase in morale of +2. However I feel that this not going to fix any game imbalances.. A difference in the fatigue (from Shogun) level was noted as soon as Medieval came out. The devs stated that they were surprised as they did not change it....However in another post they said that the speed of the game was slowed some-what... There-in may lay the factors behind the change. This change I feel is the source of the games main imbalance. Attackers can expect to lose one bar of fatigue marching anywhere on a flat map, more on hills, deserts, ect....Vs those that defend and stand and wait. Fatigue reduces the combat ability and morale of the fatigued unit. This plus other bonuses defenders can employ can allow the creation of a senerio in which an attacking force stands little chance. There are three basic fatigue factors, the rate at which it is incured, the rate at which it is recovered, and the rate which it will 'hover'(the first should be obvious to all, 'hover' is the fatige rate a unit gains fatigue if never used). Of the first two the incurrance could be left alone and the game gains realism, to gain balance an increase needs to be made in the recovery rate and the rate at which units hover.
Resently I was in a 4v4 that went 2.5 hours?; In the inital combat stage my troops gave up three fatigue bars; three of the four oppenents were driven fron the field, the forth was intrenched in a solid position that was not rushable with our tired troops...A long shooting game inssued. In that time my men regained 1 bar, however it was lost some time later even-though all they did was stand and rest......their 'hover' rate was quite tired. After the battle I spoke with the last defender.... His troops fatigue rate by the time we ended shooting was also quite tired (though they never moved).
I would propose then that the recovery rate and the hover rate raised...Double?? recovery, and hover (or rate at which a unit could recover to) fresh??
A increase in morale would buy some time for a skilled attacker to gain an advantage over an entrenched opponent, and be of some help to offset the defenders bonuses but addressing fatigue could do more.
This though would require a patch from C.A. and is out of the hands of us, the users..morale was addressed by Kocmoc when he did the work for a userers created patch; It seems though that there were too many newer people that would not take the time to dl it to make it a success.
In a resent post on whining it was pointed out that it is the main tool that we the users have to get the attention of the creators to work in our behalf. It is unlikly to occur in Medival but the success of the series is surly to produce a TotalWar III, and as effort was to made to improve the game from Shogun to Medieval; keeping up the pressure will likely gain us an improvment from Medieval to Total War III.

[Dionysus9]

I remember that game well, lahll, and it also made me realize how much work the fatigue system needs.

"no fatigue" is silly and not really an option.



I suppose we just whine then.

[Magyar Khan]

imo "just" marching should never effect fatigue

+2 morale decreases a bit teh extreme effects of the morale/chargebonusses when combat starts

[Puzz3D]

I'm not seeing any major problem with fatigue when attacking in good weather. I suppose a small reduction in good weather fatigue wouldn't hurt, but it would move the game closer to a rushing game. The intent of the chosen fatigue rate is to make the battlefield play as a larger tactical area. There is no need to rush or run to a position, and, if you do, your men should be very tired if they run a long distance. The quick 2 on 1 that was characteristic of STW is not possible in MTW. Also, reducing fatigue is going to change the chasing/rallying dynamic.

I do find the fatigue rate a little bit high in bad weather and it makes the battles very long, but it also makes the powerful Christian factions bad choices for desert terrain. However, there is no fatigue disadvantage for the attacker in any battle if he takes his time. Attacker and defender will both equlibrate at the same fatigue level if the attacker rests after a long march.

Note: There is no morale penalty for being "quite tired", and the penaly for "very tired" is a modest -2 morale, although, there is a substantial combat penaly at "very tired".

[Dionysus9]

There is a disadvantage to the attacker, yuuki, if defender sets up in back, by the time attacker gets there he is no longer fresh.

I agree with Khan, these troops have marched countless hundreds of miles. Walking across the battlefield should not result in any fatigue.

[Magyar Khan]

well its not only for being realistic or not, but if u consider teh battlefield before teh combat as a tactical platform to move to/avoid the enemy than normal marching should not harm teh attacker that much as it do now. its esp silly if u wait 15-30 mins and u seethe fatique bars dissapear if u even dont do a thing. in bright hot summer ok but not in a gentle climate.

the tension of te upcoming battle gives a soldier enuf energy to march around a bit and wait for the signal without getting tired.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

Your wrong. There is no disadvantage for the attacker because the defender who sits at the back fatigues as well. Both armies will have the same fatigue when the attack begins, unless the attacker doesn't rest. I played a game last night with an stw vet who just got the game, and he wanted a quick rush to double team the "up" guy in a 4v4. Well he got his head handed to him and cost us the battle. It's a perfect example of someone trying to apply stw tactics to mtw. STW was a rushing game. I played 2v2 with Lahll, and he used the same tactic, although, it worked because we were stronger than the enemy players. Now I find it interesting that Lahll is asking for less fatigue because I know what he wants to do is rush.

[baz]

to be honest i think its a tough decision what will help us the most, it is a very delicate operation and one that can easily go wrong...however, looking at the fatigue i dont personally like the fact that they tire so easily when not fighting....fair enough when they actually fighting or if they run around the field for an hour but just being tired from moving over to the defenders im not sure about that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[1dread1lahll]

GRR.. I take offense to "I want to rush" BS I am not a rusher... ask arround, I take balanced armies. I dont "rush" nor do I take 12 guns. Read the post again... my suggestion was to increase the rate of RECOVERY...And the hover rate.... and as I have attacked and marched to the far side of the field to attack campers, I know attackers DO suffer a greater fatigue rate Marching than defenders simpley standing; YOU are wrong... ; that is on a flat map alone. Test it And plz pray tell now would a reduced fatigue rate make rushing a super weapon? I suggest you get off your hill and march to attack an opponent,not stand and wait, your eyes open.
I post this thread to provoke thougful discussion in the quest of greater balance, NOT in an attemp to twist the game to a personal style that does not even exist

[Dionysus9]

lahll, I think he meant no real harm or offense lahll...

He thinks he's got you pegged, thats ok, it will only confuse him on the field when you do something different.

Yuuki, play a few desert games as an attacker--take almohad urbans, and tell me attacker is not disadvantaged by marching 1/2 way across the map. As I recall you were quite defensive about 1.03 stats when people accused you of tailoring it to your own needs--and rightly so.

But, anyway, The "latent" increase in fatigue of a standing unit is less than a marching unit or I'm a monkey's uncle.

A few miles march in the morning before battle would not tire any but the greenest troops. Standing in a defensive position on a hill would not tire a defender. So why are my units getting tired?

[TenkiSoratoti]

Ah yes this patch, but surely it is being made to suit the maker?

[Puzz3D]

Lahll,

There is a way to attack so that you don't incur any fatigue disadvantage compared to the defender except in the final charge as it should be. I had a game last night where I was attacking and 30 minutes into the game my troops were still "quite fresh", and it wasn't because I hadn't attacked the enemy or had one of those light weight armies. I was you partner in that game where you wanted to attack before you even saw the defenders setup. I had the flank army, and you were telling me to "hurry up and get up there" to support your attack. What was the hurry?

I said in my post, "I suppose a small reduction in good weather fatigue wouldn't hurt, but it would move the game closer to a rushing game.", and, "I do find the fatigue rate a little bit high in bad weather and it makes the battles very long.".


Dion,

I didn't say that walking incurs less fatigue than standing. You said the defender has a fatigue advantage because the attacker has to walk across the field. So what? Do you have to attack as soon as you get there? You can bet that after I had to move up quickly and immediately attack in that game with Lahll that I had a fatigue disadvantage. When your partner decides to make a quick attack, it does force the issue. I've done it myself and if it works that's great, but I've seen it fail a lot in MTW. Now I'm not going to call for a change in the game so that this tactic works better.

I feel very badly about the WE/MI v102. There were a bunch of people involved who all wanted different things. The v103 was for those that wanted to use it. I played some WE/MI on Sunday after a long absence, and it's a very fast game. I would say it's too fast, and Kocmoc and Kraellin both said it was too fast at the time. Apparently, that was a result of some network code bug fixes in WE/MI which speeded up the game.


Soratori,

The MTW v1.1 is completely Creative Assembly. The only reason community members got a crack at WE/MI is because LongJohn was not with the company at the time the WE/MI v1.0 was released, and it had some serious MP balance problems. MTW is set. You can put all your effort into learning the current stat bacause it's not likely to change regardless of all the calls for changes being made here in this forum.

[1dread1lahll]

I dont recall the game you refer to; if I ask an ally to hurry along its to gain some fleeing advantage or to keep one from being lost. I would think I would be known well enough now to all as someone who was not impatience in battle. I may rush an enemy early if he is at an extreem disasvantage (facing the wrong way) but not if i stand to loose my own troops from his allies counterattack...
As far as this thread goes so far only Maggy&Bachus have dropped in and stopped to think about the impact on game balance/fatigue; with so little intrest in game balance would the Org please just close it before it spirals into another thread on unhelpful personal attacks.

[Crandaeolon]

Alright, I will try and wrench the thread back on track. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Here's some raw data. Modifiers caused by fatigue. Originally from the strategy guide, but I got 'em from the "faq" at the Com.

The effect of fatigue on morale:

Unit is Very Tired: -2 (Edited to correct number, thanks Puzz)
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is Totally Exhausted: -8

And on combat ability:

-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted

Interesting stuff, no? Some of these are a bit on the steep side, don't ya think?

And Lahll, I can remember a game where ya rushed me right in the beginning with a Spanish army (lots of lancers) and no support from your allies. (And the rush was repulsed.) But, there's no need to go into more details than that, as ya said.

[LordTed]

I think there should be a morale bonus as you can charge the enemy of the map albeit well timed, so extra morale would help absorb the shock and make games a bit more solid.

[Puzz3D]

Hi Cran,

I hope you're feeling better.

The morale penalty for being very tired may only be -2. The Strategy Guide says that, and that's what it was in STW. It's easy enough to check in a test, but I haven't done it. Other than that, those numbers you posted are all the same as they were in STW. It's the fatigue "rate" and the recovery "rate" that are the point of the thread. They operate simultaneously to produce an equilibrium point, and the rates have apparently been increase to simulate a larger battlefield.

I can understand that MTW v1.1 doesn't suit some players to the extent that they can't enjoy the game. I felt that way about WE/MI v102. So far, I'm getting acceptably enjoyable games at 15K florins, temperate climate, high period, rolling or hilly terrain. In desert and rocky climate you need the light muslim armies.


Lahll,

Sorry to use the term "rusher". I know you use a studied approach to the game. With the reduced killing rate of ranged weapons, the fatigue may be the only thing that's preventing the Byz rush from dominating the game. It's already a very potent weapon in high period which I play to avoid the infernal handgunner. Does my French army have a chance against the high period Byz rush in your reduced fatigue world? I'm on the ropes now with that matchup.


LordTed,

That's why I've been playing at 15K since you can field higher morale infantry. Units fight a little longer which gives more time for maneuvering free units during the fighting.

[Crandaeolon]

Got it Yuuki, and edited the modifier to -2. There must have been a typo in the faq. Actually, I saw the -2 modifier in yer earlier post but wanted to see if ya would correct the -3 one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The reason why I posted those modifiers is that not everybody has the strat guide, and it's useful for everyone to recap the underlying effects of fatigue even if we're talking about the rates of getting fatigued and recovering from it.

Personally, I have adapted to the current system and don't have a burning need to change it. It's an artificial way to make the game "larger". But, bad weather (including snow) fatigue is a bit too high IMO.

And thanks Yuuki, I'm indeed feeling much better. Ya might see me on the battlefield as soon as tomorrow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kraxis]

It is interesting that almost all other factors on the Morale will show up in the text for the unit, you know like "Feeling safe on hill", but there is no "Uncertain due to fatigue"... I wonder why they left it out, and units are very often Quite Tired.

Before I gathred this info from the FAQ at the com I knew there was a Moralepenalty (exhausted units running very soon), but not that soon.

[Dionysus9]

Crand,

Thanks for the strat.guide stats--I don't have those and I didnt know the exact numbers. They will come in handy, thanks again. And thanks for wrenching the thread back on track too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.
--
Yeah its trick and there are some balance issues that could get messed up if too much is changed. But I think we should be wary of not changing things that need to be fixed because we are afraid they will make another problem worse. Ideally we need to fix both problems, not just keep one of them at the expense of fixing the other.

Yeah, Byz Inf are way too powerful for their cost. They could be made more expensive and they would be much more balanced. Then we wouldn't need this massive rapid fatigue.

Yuuki,

Are you saying you can rest your units back up to Quite Tired? That takes a long darn time. Assuming the defender doesnt want to come down and kick your tired units while they are trying to rest, I suppose this would work.

I think you should be able to rest up to Fresh, and without tooo much game time being expended. Its pretty boring to sit for 30 minutes just to watch a fatigue bar pop up (and then wait another 5 so it wont go down as soon as you take a step). I played v.112 MI/WE the other day and boy is it fast MTW is much more strategic and less of the arcade clickfest that Shoggy was--I only realised that by going back to play Shoggy. I like the slower play of MTW much better and I think we should avoid speeding up this game.

That being said I dont think some small adjustments to the fatigue/refresh rates would mess anything up (or imbalance any units/factions) if the Byz Inf. were otherwise balanced.

Anyway, good thread Lahll.

[AMPage]

Wow The effect of fatigue on moral and combat ability is steep. No wonder my troops run so fast when i try to rout a 3rd army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I think moral is fine, but fatigue could be reduced a little for foot troops, cavalry is fine. I don't think troops should fatigue just standing around or marching. I think foot troops should fatigue a bit slower and regain faster. I agree with Bacchus on that, who wants to sit around waiting for 30mins to regain fatigue.

You could have a different way of doing this. Add 3 marching speeds: marching *very slow* which dosn't hurt fatigue; quick march which hurts fatigue a little; marching fast/charging which hurts fatigue more. The weather and terrain only take effect when you quick march and above. So units that faigue faster in rain, snow, and desert will fatigue a bit faster added on with the normal fatigue from quick march and up.

And about moral maybe we could have 3 different lvls such as: Beginner moral +8; Novice moral +4; Expert moral +0. So when you log on you have these 3 lvls and you can choose the lvl of your liking. This would be useful for people who like having troops fighting long and those who like fast routs provided the right tatics.

Problay just some more stupid ideas of mine... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Dionysus9]

nah, not stupid-- having three levels of fatige makes sense.

Having 3 levels of morale settings makes really good sense too, because right now the people who like their units to fight to the last man are playing 99999 games. Sometimes I question whether they understand the morale system at all.
As it stands now they either have to play high florin games or turn morale off entirely.
If they could use a morale setting that was in-between maybe it would help them understand the morale system a bit at a time...

good ideas Amp.

[Magyar Khan]

u know the harder we moan the more change its implemented in teh next version....

WE MUST HAVE OPTIONS FOR FATIGUE and MORALE


fatique is about 25% to much now, esp caused by units getting tired of doing nothing. so lets implement Amps suggestion which is suggested by many over time. Marching should not effect fatique, perhaps only in teh desert.

kocmocs stats show that +2 morale on the morale we have now in 10k battles plays just fine.
amp... u consider +0 morale as expert. well i consider gambling not as expert stuff. i myself like to know why my units break and not caused by an hypersensitive calculation where each loose knight getting behind me causes a mass rout. so your qualification could be as well

+8 determined soldiers mode
+4 hardend soldiers mode
+2 normal soldiers mode
+0 weakharted soldiers mode

[Magyar Khan]

btw

the reason we play 12-15k is that we all want to get a good "morale" feeling. the downside of 15k is thta it allows the cheaper units to be upgraded to valour4 with all its bonusses.

the standard should be around 6-8k again where as well the number of knights and stuff are limited to the florin amount.

12x650 = 7800 florins

but how do we make these DEVS listen? we buy their games, we hurt their ears in here, we bash their heads in their own games online..... what can we do more besides hunking up to their wives...?

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

I can see you haven't fully explored this. You can recover to "quite fresh" in good weather. Now as to the time required, that's a preference on your part. If the defender doesn't like waiting, let him attack and incur fatigue and expose his flanks. I don't have any problem including waiting in my attack plans. Managing fatigue is more important in MTW than it was in STW. If you play chess, a typical game takes 4 hours. To me, even a 60 min battle is not long. These long battles, can take on an epic character. If you want to move from point A to point B and immediately attack, then you have a problem. You will be operating at a fatigue disadvantage.

So, lets face it. People are asking for things that amount to gameplay preferences rather than balance issues. AMP thinks he sould be able to rout 3 armies. Why should the game be changed to allow that to be possible? Having an ally who is near you rout is already a huge disadvantage. One of the problems here is using STW as the standard of play. The fact that you can effectively disengage cav in MTW makes a tremendous difference in gameplay right there. After playing 400 battles (which excludes an estimated 1/3 false starts), 200 since the v1.1 patch, I've moved away from how I played STW.

[Orda Khan]

If my army is going to incur fatigue simply by standing or marching I'm not at all happy about it. I can live with waiting a while to rest, if that is what it takes but I don't think I should have to.

15000 Florins helps with morale issue but it also brings with it some other problems, all the armoured units for a start.At 8000 Florins some of the 'lightweight' options would maybe get a look in. I can understand Magyar Khan's point, if you can't afford them you'll have to pick a different unit. I here people talk about balanced armies and it makes me smile, a balanced army never had half the number of armoured units these guys field.
My idea of a balanced army would be one with 4 or 5 max armoured units, the rest being lightly armoured or not at all. Perhaps this would help the archers kill a few too.
At 8000 we'd see a few less v4 Byzantine infantry too

.....Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[CBR]

You really have to go below 8000 florins to see the use of the less armoured units. A "basic" army of say 4 pav arbs, 4 cmaa, 4 order and 4 chiv knights will cost you 6400. You would need to go to perhaps 5k or less.

I started doing some changes to the costs of units, a few weeks back, and it ended up being a complete overhaul of the way unitcosts are calculated and a lot of costs were changed. Im not entirely satisfied yet and took a break from all the work last week. But a 4k battle works fine and you are forced to buy some of the cheaper units.

But a system like that also means no upgrades or only a few and some people might find that boring.



Armor is a problem. If you play early you can have orderfoot and feudal maa with armor 5. In high you will still have orderfoot and now chiv maa with armor 5 and in late(only if you pick germans or italians) you can have gothic sergeants and foot knights with armor 6. And ofc we have halbardiers, chiv foot knights and chiv sergeants with armor 5 too.(shield has been added ofc)

I dont mind lots of armor in the late era but I really dont see any big differences in the eras in armor development at all..

CBR

[Magyar Khan]

thats what i meant Orda, since my main lobbyist is killed lately, working on understanding of such a balance mechanisme is wasted time. Much simpler to put into the readers head is the effective buttons/options as proposed above.

Ask yourself why u play 10k+.... than try to imagine how the increase of morale and lowering of florins would impact the game...

[1dread1lahll]

In That long game with Amp non-desert, my troops went down to 2 bars while marching, running, fighting, running, marching, then standing.....while standing they all recovered 1 bar.....over the next 10 mins they all lost that bar and stayed at 'quite tired'.... Amps troops were in a defensive position while mine did the marching ect, aginst his allies....by the end game.... my troops which had run fought run..were quite tired.... Amps, (which had been resting the entire time) were also quite tired My troops did more they should be more tired I dont want to change the rate at which units become fatigued while running or fighting...thats fine....where it is now is a the right level for skilled players to properly manage it to gain victory over the careless that run about.... I would like to see a reduction in the rate at which units incure fatigue while marching (or standing still)on flat ground, in fair climates (hill climbing, winter, Ect left alone).
Just the marching and standing part....also perhaps an increase in the rate at which troops 'catch their breath" after all that running, fighting ect....
Also , to inhance game play as amp suggested, a 'quick time speed' for units.. a faster movement speed than march, but slower than run, with less fatigue penalities than run.... think this too we could not expect till totalwar III..

[LadyAnn]

The two speed idea is also accurate: march and forced marched are already part of any organized army drill for a long time. Peasants would only have stand and run mode, but professional troops must be able to have a speed midway between march and run.

Annie

[Kraxis]

Yes Annie, I can remember well the forced marches I have been subject to...
But remember that in battle they did not use forced marches. Forced marches were only used to get to a battlefield or cut off the enemy fast. In battle the formation was more important and as such quite slow.

But in reality I would like another speed...
But I would like even more +2 Morale. I love bows, and have just tonight used them to great effect (but dman that was hard) against a Pav Arb army. I would like to see the bows put in front again... I would love to use less armoured units as well. Perhaps people would take Kerns and Murabitin into battle again (love those too) as they are very cheap compared to the damage they can dish out, too bad they get knocked over by arbs.

[Puzz3D]

Lahll,

Ok I think I see a misunderstanding between us. It seems you are saying that being "quite tired" is a disadvantage. All I'm saying is that, if both armies are "quite tired" then there is no relative disadvantage. Now from that point, it's only one step to "very tired" which has a significant disadvantage compared to "quite tired". This fact restricts quick movement to very short distances unless you are so much stronger than the enemy that your army can tolerate being "very tired" while the enemy is "quite tired". I like this situation. It limits the running around. When I fist played MTW, I didn't like the fatigue rate and asked for a big reduction in the rate, but I did place a ? on my suggested 50% reduction because I didn't know how much it should be changed, and I still don't.

I had a 3v3 battle last night where as left flank I narrowly defeated Kraxis and lost my general. As I reformed my 8 units, the center and right opponents were engaging each other. Seeing that my center ally was having a hard time, I immediately sent my reformed line toward the fighting. As I got close, two allied units routed in front of me. My men routed and I was out meaning no chance to rally. Now I don't have a problem with this. My men were tired from fighting and chasing, I had no general, my center ally was loosing with units routing and I hadn't rested my men.

Probably the fatigue rates are not optimized, and I don't think we can say what the optimal rates should be at this time. It's an iterative process, and that's something which we don't have with Creative Assembly, i.e. change, try, change again, try agin, etc. I'll give you an example. Morale "off" was really "off" in STW. In MTW, morale "off" is not "off"; it's +12 morale. Now how did this come about? LongJohn posted here at the org how it came about. WE/MI v1.0 was released with a bug whereby online MP had +12 morale added to all units. He used the term "bug". I pinpointed the +12 problem with testing at the time, and a group of us requested that CA remove the +12 from morale which they did in v1.1. When he was working on MTW, he remembered some players saying they liked the +12 morale, and so he put that into MTW in the morale "off" option. I've played in several battles at very low florins with morale off to see how it works. The boost is so big that it basically turns the morale system off even with valor 0 units. Now is this how you perform an iterative process? It is, but you need more steps. The optimal morale level for this game falls somewhere between morale "on" (+0) and morale "off" (+12). The changes to spears in MTW are another example of this same problem. They were a bit too much one way in v1.0, and are a bit too much the other way in v1.1 (talking about MP here).

I see no commitment from Activision/Creative Assembly to do what's needed to optimize the game to better than 25% or thereabouts. It's easy to break the game with changes, and LongJohn had said this very same thing. Given that he had one shot at this with the v1.1, I think it came out pretty good. Without a lot of steps you're destined to hover around the optimal values for all these parameters, and they all interact with one another in a complex way. Change one parameter, and some other previously optimized parameter might have to be readjusted.

[1dread1lahll]

The deves do hear us and do make changes, surly they make them with caution as they cant do a weekly patch.... but from SWT to MTW we have many to push the game towards greater balance....valor limits and unit tax passed four units has done away with 'super ashi' and the monk rush.
Those changes did not come about because we users were quiet...

[Magyar Khan]

well if every step take 2.5 months than i have hope my sons will play with teh right settings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kraxis]

Puzz...
There is a problem with the fatigue if both sides are at Quite Tired. That situation brings a penalty to Morale to both sides, and that is not something we need at the moment, the Morale is already a bit too weak, even I recognize this.
It is simply strange that I would get tired from standing still for about 10 mins in good climate and good weather. In the desert I'm fully for that, and even in the dead of winter too, just not in Lush or Temperate during spring with good weather... that is simply senseless. How tired would I get if I carried a shield and a spear and nothing else (besides clothes)... not much.
So slightly less fatigue would be nice.

[Puzz3D]

Well the rout point in WE/MI was -24, but it's apparently -16 in MTW if the Strategy Guide is correct. That's a different issue. You don't fix the morale problem by changing fatigue. Units have always fatigued just by standing in this series. This isn't something new to MTW. In MTW, the fatigue rate was increased, but the recover rate was also increased to keep the same equlibrium point. I suppose the increased rates would mean the equilibrium point is reached more quickly. The intent is to simulate a larger arena, and make positioning of units more important because those positions are not as easily changed as they were in STW. I think it's having that effect.

[Dionysus9]

The more I think about it the less and less I am convinced that morale needs a +2 boost. As it stands now, most decent cav is morale 8 at v0.

At morale 10 a unit will fight for a long darn time under some serious pressure. At m12 most units will fight down to a handfull of men if you keep them from getting encircled.

At m14 we are talking uber-unit. As it stands now a v3 lancer (m14) certainly is an uber unit in terms of morale alone. Presently such a unit is expensive. If we increase morale by 2 then a v2 lancer would have 14 morale. A v1 would have 12 morale--thats insane to me. Its very affordable and those units (lancer&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif are already powerful enough without an additional 2 morale.

With most heavy cav having 8 base morale, I think a morale +2 across the board might make them too powerful.

Of course, you will say-- "every unit gets plus 2 morale so its a wash", but it isn't, really. First, if its a wash then why do it? Second, it will result in slightly longer engagements because the units will take more punishment before they run, but this is a nuetral factor for me. What I am really concerned about is this: It is harder than hades to get a m14 (or even m12) unit to run. Unrealistically hard if you ask me.

I don't want to see every fight degenerate into uber-morale units slugging away at eachother to the last man. Might as well go 999999 florins.

It would be (relatively) easy to mod the +2 morale and see what happens. Has anyone tried that?

My prediction is it would cause all 8 morale units to be too powerful. An increase from 8 to 10 has far more effect than an increase from 0 to 2 (although, mathematically, it shouldnt--it is hard to rack up enough negative morale pressure to make a m10 unit run).

What do you guys think?

[Magyar Khan]

well in short

highering teh basic morale, lowers the importance of additional factors liek chargebonusses and stuf.

highering teh morale, may result in playing with lower florins which gives a better balance in unitchoices, since some units are at lvl 4 unrealistic strong compared to that what they are at lvl 0.

sadly Kocmoc lost interest in mtw so u wont see him much enuf around to see what he ment by earlier posts. slightly we accept that teh game has changed. some adapt, some play other games, some do both. who cares anyway.

[longjohn2]

I don't really understand what all the clamour for increasing the morale is about. If you give each unit a +1 valour increase, then they've all got +2 morale, and the increased attack and defence factors cancel out. Increasing the base morale just removes the option to play with realistic morale for those who can handle it.

There have been some points on this thread about fatigue. The reason that units get tired standing still, is that the small battles are supposed to represent a larger engagement taking most of the day. Stand a field with heavy equipment for a day, and you certainly won't be as fresh as when you started.
Also the fatigue is basically the same as Shogun. The only thing that's changed are the factors for bad weather, and that was mainly because some muppet decided to rewrite the weather system, but never made it work as well as the old one. Play in arid, and you can avoid all the weather effects though.

[Magyar Khan]

hi LJ

95% of the 5% of teh onlien market plays 15k now. how come the average florin-amount is 15k?

cuz at least it gives these 4.75% of the market the feeling that units hold long enuf to have some fun in the game. (btw the other 5% playes 20k or higher).

we tried to inform u before about the overall morale-combatbonus system. and we failed.

so whats the problem with a morale slider and fatigue slider in the add-on? are sliders so hard to implement? i think Target can do that for you.

btw i also dont understand that if u let 2 units fight and u throw at a time an horseunit from teh same side as your men are that teh impact is enormous and teh enemy breaks.

[Kocmoc]

hi LJ,


i understand what u dont understand.
but can u not just do us MP a favor?

go online and u will see what mag told already, 95% of all games are about 15k each player. so somehow the majority of the MP agree that the moral with v0 is a bit weak...

lets talk about solutions, u guys dont go online u dont know much about the MP, so u should maybe accept some things and do us a favor. that my opinion.

the most guys agree at this points, someone said the hillbonusses are the same like in stw, but thats wrong
i dont know all the numbers u know, but we need some changes. some wich helps us, many players created own stats and many told us theyr ideas, if we go and collect the main ideas where all will agree with. than we have we can easy change it and all will be happy.

sliders would be nice, if this isnt possible, well than we have to agree in some ppoints.....like

+2 moral
better missles
fatique -20%
more hillbonusses
less supportbonusses
weaker cav or/and stronger spears

u can easy make spears stronger vs cav but less let it same vs normal units.

many easy solutions wich are easy and fast done.
we tryed many times to speak with u guys and offered replayes and online games to show it...

its just impossible to stay with lower florin vs al lthis bonusses, if u go lower than 10k each, the bonusses create chainrouts in mass.

look at the 3v3 community vs devs and see what can happen, and this was with 14k.....with 4 or 5 k less its just much more easy. And there wont help any skill u just spoil everything away if u come with such a lot of bonusses.

so plz x-mas is coming, give us a fast MP-patch, its clear what we want....im sure we get a team together where we could work on the things we need. Just help us a bit, please.

thx koc

[AMPage]

You mean for the vets it's 95%, cause really i think it's 50/50 with all these 99999florin games i see everytime i logon. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Some people hate having troops rout fast and rather have units fight almost to the last man. So it would be nice to have something like magy listed under my post for moral lvls. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

What we really need is more rooms and a better inter face and more. It's sad that it takes longer to logon and off when 100 people are online. It's also not easy keeping up with the chat in game and out of game. A seperate link for games might be nice, so when i enter i don't see my chat flooded saying who's hosting what. And some people wonder why the multipler won't get higher then 150 people online at once... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Magyar Khan]

longjohn check the lancers thread, strangly enuf more people got the same feeling about stats...

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=3674 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=Post;CODE=02;f=18;t=3674)


amp and koc and others, we would save ourselves time if we save this threads and copy paste them once in a while. somethimes, from a distance, we do look like a shouting man in the desert.