Valid training?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Waiting for At&T to wire me so that I can play online with a nice community, I have played mainly SP so far.

As in SP the battle is often won before getting started with unbalanced armies florin wise, I have shifted to custom games to get a fair fight with some limitation (it's an AI with an undue morale advantage in expert...). If compared to MP I guess I trade some brillant tactic (you guys) against a more resilient enemy (AI fight to death in expert). I don't pause.

And then I try 5 CPU players + Me in 3 vs 3.

That was an interesting experience... I learnt a few things and wonder if they would apply to real 3vs3 in MP. An I have questions...

1/ Overall it's a bloody mess. It's very confusing. The beginning is pretty much OK, with some AI intent guessing (AI moving in strange place in defense... Attack is way more straightforward with an occasional side move). But once armies start routing and rallying all over the place, I really get lost and confused.
That doesn't let a lot of time for micromanagement of unit and there are so many peoples on the field that I don't consider unit flanking but rather strategical flanking. I mean I stop flanking one unit, I flank one army overall and unleash the whole thing without paying attention to unit optimization...
A consequence is; units like Jinete / Kerns / Ghazi / Gallowglass / Naphta / Camels which requires attention to be effective (or midly effective for Camels) are less interesting, because I don't see how I would be able to manage them correctly in such a mess. On the other hand overall good unit with less specialization can more or less handle trouble on their own and are getting more valuable; wherever I throw those CMAAs it can't be bad
I also have less variety in my armies now.
Am I just learning or do you also have easier army when you fight 3v3 than 1v1?

2/ The ban of all ban is when your ally is routing on your position. It's already bad when an ally is routing, but an ally routing on oneself is really worse...
How can you avoid routing in a wrong direction and embarras your own team? Do you trigger your own routing before being forced to rout on your ally?

3/ Well, sometimes I loose, but even if it's an all CPU game, I kind of like having a couple of elite units hidden somewhere in my allies back, just to see the end of a game if I get routed fast, and to give some help to my allies if need be.
Sure my main army is less efficient, but that let me something to do if things go badly.
Is it also a current practice within the community to spare a few units at the other end of the map to enjoy the show and maybe tilt the balance in close endgame?

4/ I came to hate map with too much forest. Hills are fine. Forests are just more confusing and honestly I don't need that.
Too bad in SP or custom 1v1 I used to like forest.
Do you have different map preference with the number of players?

This post is long enough for now.. More to come later...

Have a nice day,

Louis,

[Kongamato]

I have to say that I believe MP is more organized. A key requirement of victory is an organized army. The organized army will wipe the floor with a disorganized one. What you ought to do is look at the few online replays that can be found here and study the organizational techniques, such as deployment and grouping.

Organization and Army selection are the two things that newbies are the least skilled at. Remember to take a balanced army, and to organize it properly.

[RTKCei]

Yes take a well balanced army of spear sword and calvery.
Also when attacking I think it can be good to leave a few units in reserve so when your units start routing you don't total route right off the field. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[LadyAnn]

2/ The ban of all ban is when your ally is routing on your position. It's already bad when an ally is routing, but an ally routing on oneself is really worse...
How can you avoid routing in a wrong direction and embarras your own team? Do you trigger your own routing before being forced to rout on your ally?

You are already a disgrace if you rout ... just kidding
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Skill attackers will certainly watch the direction of the attack so that they will force the opponent routing troops into their allies. The other way is to force the opponent out the edge so he/she can't ralley. Both are valid ways and am only comment on the routing-on-ally affect.

A unit runs in the direction it thinks having less pursuing enemies. Don't know exactly what is the algorithm, but I think it goes like where the enemy units in immediate area and where is the center of gravity of the enemy army (or armies). And the rout goes opposite to that.

You are experiencing the chain-rout effect and the ally will also run in the direction the rout is going on.

It is not easy to avoid chain routing your ally. The best you could do is to avoid routing yourself. But the worst already happen, so nothing much you could do. It is the duty of your ally to get out of the way if he/she cannot help you stop the rout. If he/she is routed by your units, it is really his/her fault. If he/she blames you, ask if he/she is a newbie, because according to Elmo's guide, only newbies can blame allies.

But if you are a bit more experienced, you would instinctively know which direction you will rout if the worst happened. You will know, because you already experienced these effects many times (losing enough games to be called experienced). In that case, you will position your army so that if you rout, you will not run into allies and have enough space behind you to rally (or force the opponent to tire himself and in disarray just by pursuing you). Well, only experience can teach you that, so go online and prepare to lose many games.

Don't quit before the game ends: you will never be able to observe how the routing mechanism work if you esc early. What is more satisfying than being defeated by your opponent, but observe that your allies could take advantage of the confusion and turn the tide?

And if you could save the game and replay it to see exactly how the rout happen in the first place. You will be a much better player afterward.

Annie

[Major Robert Dump]

Keep your army together. If you must split your men up for some sort of trick manuever, then only do it just before the big clash otherwise your opponent will see it coming from a mile away and make you pay dearly.

Be sure to utilize the grouping keys and the hotkeys, but DON'T rely on them because they can ruin a game if it gets laggy.

Don't get disappointed if you lose a lot because it's the only way to learn and there are a lot of good players willing to give you that chance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Ask for advice, some will give, others will ignore.

And please, don't talk trash when you beat someone; A lot of times some of the vets will bring goofy armies against a less skilled opponent for the sake of making the game interesting. What works for you one game probably won't work for you the next.

[Marco]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Jan. 21 2003,19:17)]Is it also a current practice within the community to spare a few units at the other end of the map to enjoy the show and maybe tilt the balance in close endgame?
You will need all the units at your disposal to avoid getting flanked and losing to your own opponents. Unless you have a plan amongst your allies to attack one opponent heavily and hold another then best thing is to keep all your units together.

If you do lose all your units you will go to free view camera where you can sit back and enjoy the others slogging it out. Its considered bad pratice to quit after losing and even worse if you re the host.

[Krasturak]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Jan. 21 2003,14:17)]... I learnt a few things and wonder if they would apply to real 3vs3 in MP. An I have questions...
Gah


Quote[/b] ]1/ Overall it's a bloody mess. It's very confusing...once armies start routing and rallying all over the place, I really get lost and confused...I don't see how I would be able to manage them correctly in such a mess...Am I just learning or do you also have easier army when you fight 3v3 than 1v1?

You are just learning.

The confused mess after the main engagement is the most difficult point in the 3v3 and 4v4 MP games.

It is also crucial, as it is easily possible for a defeat to be converted to victory during this period.

Krast advises you to focus your attention as much as possible to keeping control and performing meaningful tasks with each unit as much as possible, with an eye to learning this skill until it becomes seocnd nature.

If you succeed, you will be among the many great players Krast admires.


Quote[/b] ]2/ The ban of all ban is when your ally is routing on your position. It's already bad ... is really worse...
How can you avoid routing in a wrong direction and embarras your own team?

The tone of your question demands Krast's attention, as you are obviously a considerate player. Please accept Krast's humble opinion:

You learn this by experience. You'll soon learn to see the flow of play and know instinctively where you should expect the routing men to go.

Consider taking this question one step further up the chain: how do you prevent your ally from routing in the first place?


Quote[/b] ]3/I kind of like having a couple of elite units hidden somewhere in my allies back, just to see the end of a game ... and to give some help to my allies if need be.
Sure my main army is less efficient, but that let me something to do if things go badly. Is it also a current practice within the community to spare a few units at the other end of the map to enjoy the show and maybe tilt the balance in close endgame?

In Krast's opinion it is bad form to withhold troops of any kind from the battle in order to watch it. You can make a replay file and watch the battle endlessly if you wish.

There is no greater offence to your troops than holding them back when they exist solely to cut heads off.

Aside from that, it is a common practice among some team players to share units across the front, so one player's cavalry might support another player's archers and so on. This mostly occurs among clan-mates and friends who know and trust each other well. But anyone can attempt it if they have sufficient control of their forces. See part 1 above.


Quote[/b] ]4/ I came to hate map with too much forest. Hills are fine. Forests are just more confusing ...
Do you have different map preference with the number of players?

There are some player who loathe forest and play only on bald, ugly open maps. Krast prefers maps with a patchwork of different surfaces including forests to give the battlefield a meaningful role in the process of the game. Everyone has a different opinion on this, probably. But Krast would be surprised if the map selection varied according to the number of players.

5/ Try taking a look at some replay files. You can download them from the files area of the Org here, and there are more available from some of the Clan sites. You'll get to see the overall process, and see some of the common practices. The files are small, no more than 100kb zipped, so you can d/l them easily and then sit back and enjoy the show.

6/ Which reminds Krast: you need the patch version 1.1
You can d/l it from somewhere in the Org, and from some other locations also. Install this patch as soon as possible. Don't bother with any custom maps until later if you feel the need for them.

7/ Krast is looking forward to seeing you on the field.

8/ Gah Louis Gah

[Krasturak]

Quote[/b] (Major Robert Dump @ Jan. 21 2003,15:41)]Be sure to utilize the grouping keys and the hotkeys, but DON'T rely on them because they can ruin a game if it gets laggy.
Dump, please be kind to poor, weak-minded Krast and expand on this delicate point in your extra-ordinary discourse?