View Full Version : Creative Assembly Proof I: weird science
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 15:22
EDIT IT ARE 32 CHIV MEN AT ARMS instead of sergeants
it was me (yellow) getting competetive again and challenging kocmoc (red)
pic 1
after the major clash we were redressing the ranks, i had 3 units behind koc, about 7 knights and 8 mounted sergs and 32 v3 chiv sergeant. i was circling them back to the right on the pic to make them join my main forces u see in front.
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201//web-wolves/wolves-otherimages/step1.jpg
pic 2
koc decided to use 12 knights to disrupt this move and attacked
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201//web-wolves/wolves-otherimages/step2.jpg
pic 3
he came close and charged the horses
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201//web-wolves/wolves-otherimages/step3.jpg
pic 4
while he aimed for my mounted sergeant which i moved back my knights got in his rear and his knights were routing but then... see his 3 knights comming from the left.
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201//web-wolves/wolves-otherimages/step4.jpg
pic 5
he carged my 32 chivs who are very tired and his 3 knights quite tired and on impact i lost 6 men at once and the whole unit fled....
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201//web-wolves/wolves-otherimages/step5.jpg
pic 6
and there they go
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t543201//web-wolves/wolves-otherimages/step6.jpg
imo this shows what most of use experience once in a while at nite and i wonder myself if its worse or less worse than teh routbug we had in stw mi.
3 knights should never ever kill 6 men that easy on impact and rout the remaining 26 men without a single loss. 32 trained foot with halberds (?) rout against 3 knight.
what u think or is it just me?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 15:23
replay file can be made available for u if u need it.
Sjakihata
01-09-2003, 17:12
Well, tales have been told about brave and valourous british knights defeating an army 20 times their own http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Were the chiv. serg. facing the cav.? can't make that out on the pic.
Things like that I like, not if it happens very often, I guess it do not cos I have never seen a post regarding this in mtw. Sometimes the qualifications of specific ferious men come into play, what just adds to the RPG aspect, which I think lacks a lot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Of course I understand your speculation, and I would be puzzled as well, if it happend to me. Well, just think what honour they will receive when they get home http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I would have withdrawn them, as to show my gratitude http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 17:20
actually at first i couldnt believe koc was charging me, somehow i rely on common sense and imahine as it wasd real.
but whebn i noticed i was actually comming for me i turned and managed to have some advance, obvious i didnt get any chargebonus.
these kind of thing can make me pissed of altho we laughed about it, its plain stupid. as we get closer, what might we cross next?
imo solve it, i dunno whats needed but perhaps:
raising morale of all units will make the importancy of the chargebonus relativly weaker
we all raise florins so unitselections is more about compromising instead of boosting
-----------------------------------
i could upload replayfile if people want proof, but people i spoke recognized similar situations.
Sjakihata
01-09-2003, 17:28
Well, it never happend to me. Of course I have been routed by smaller units, like 40 vs 60. But you should also think about what happend around them? Did your gen die, routing units nearby etc. I know that you know these circumstances, I just say take everything into account.
And because u turned ur unit explains why no cav died (no spears pointing at them) and they might hit the flank?
Well, all I do know is it does not pisses me off.
Look at it positively, and be glad it was not a tournement final http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 17:32
well i won that one, but did i win on skill or did the dice fall a few times more to my side?
my genral didnt die, u can see how far they are away.
i may upload replay soon.... but it may contain to much valuable info. i can provide more images tho.
or better i may send it to some in private.
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 17:41
ok wolf fast is watching teh replay now...
DthB4Dishonor
01-09-2003, 18:02
Hail Everyone,
It may have to much valuable info, hehehe how about auctioning the replay Magyar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Well actually I have one better. I was in a 3v3 I was on far right Amp on far left. I relatively quickly routed my opponent and what do I see, amp sweeping from the left with his heavy cav and cmaa.
I quickly scramble my infantry units to make a line and brace for impact and rest a bit and send my very few Cav units to try and screen a bit and let my ally rally. (I was Turks) I had one of my saracen v3 cleaning up in my rear (opponent was English) so the Enlish wouldnt rally. The saracens just ran some pavise and longbows off the map when I turn them to help my other units which are by now being attacked by amp.
Well whats standing there between my men and this 27 unit of v3 saracen but 1 English chiv knight(not one unit, 1 solitary knight). He charges my guys are tired I figured I'd let him break himself on my saracen but nope he routs my saracen and this was straight on. Oh and BTW Amp impaled half my guys and trampled the other half. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I didnt save the replay.
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 18:11
somehow the bonusses are different calculated than we might have been told.
perhaps it isnt calculated liek u think when u zoom in on teh individual fights of the little buggers but its one calculation for a full unit.... and applied on the men left.
we had never seen this in STW MI cuz units dropping below 10 men were in general considered to be wasted and of no value.
well we know GilJay stopped bugging us, hay hay long live GilJay but cant we pursue his followers to join this conversation?
TenkiSoratoti
01-09-2003, 18:55
The evil imbalances
Hmmm not watch replay yet but i will.....
Something u must know and i think many or most will...
Is moral of units and fear is also caused by not only out number lets say 2v1 units but also the units its facing..And also the speed of the unit as well...
So lets say for xample u face 1 spanish lancers v1 and ur a peasants v2 lets say...
Not only is the flank etc bonuses applied but also other moral droppin things r applied such as...
Such as Lancers r fast they r a better unit than us(peasants)they will beat us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
This is what im led to believe the computer calculates as well as H2H... tiredness amount of charge,number of men..terrrain....flank....
So what im tryin to say is if ur faced before a stronger or faster unit the computer already take this into account..So the weaker unit is already afraid even though u havent engage..Im not sure what 0.point whatever it drops moral....But maybe this is what caused it also?
But 2 the main point its very silly or indeed wrong a unit of 3 kill 6 on charge,then rout it....
Anyway i go check replay in a few mins.....
Knights are expected to do exceptional deeds.. I will try to imagine myself in a platoon of men with spear, all alone with all flanks exposed, seeing two or three heavy horseknights in full armour riding into us with our formation in disarray.. and our men were too tired to perform the Mel Gibson's lie-down-poke-horse-tummy-as-cav-approach spear act in The Patriot.. I see a few of my comrades fell to the lance.. hmm.. I'm just an ordinary infantyman with no estate or esteem to uphold. maybe its good idea for me to run than to stick around any longer..
I think a good knight can easily kill two footmen in two strokes.. and Koc's knights are v2.. very good knights indeed.
Maybe most of us who play think with a knight mentality.. but Elmo will point the way of the Commoner http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Looks like your sargeant was charged from rear or behind for such casualties ? If so I think it still makes sense.
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 19:28
fast will tell u soon that they just turned to face the knights
would u scare for 1 knight when ur with 9 buddies with halberds?
Hosakawa Tito
01-09-2003, 19:57
Must be a combination of the distance from your general, the distance from your other 2 mounted units, and having the enemy force between them and friendly lines plus losing 6 comrades in the initial charge. How long did they last after the initial charge? Were they on hold formation or engage at will? Seems like the charge, and 6 casualties, was the final straw. I've seen similar things in SP against the AI, but I haven't played enough MP to have seen that. From what I've read on this board you should ask UglyElmo, I hear he's an expert on charging in the wrong direction. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
From a sheet I d/l from this site, here's what I think the applicable morale penalties are:
1. unit is very tired -3
2. 50% of unit KIA -6
3. infantry charged by calvary, in the flank or loose/disordered -6
4. losing the fight, up to -8
5. infantry losing to calvary, up to -14 (this modifier may negate # 5)
possibly
one flank and rar threatened -6
Plus too far from general, if a bonus was available it wouldn't apply.
Dont know if this helps, but it seems the morale penalty against you chiv sarg was quite large.
ok here is what i saw......
3 knights charged @ the chivs.....Before the knight got close enuf Magyar turn around his chivs, and attack full on..or head to head..
As i see it Magyar got his charge bonus in, plain to see.
But like he says on contact he lost 6 men...Guess this caused the rout as already very tired..
But the 3 knights not a single loss?
see above again for more details.....
MAybe Mr Puzz can come up with more detail of why this happened?
ElmarkOFear
01-09-2003, 21:12
The answer from UglyELmo the "commoner" and "expert of charging the wrong way" is: Cav are way to strong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Especially in the later part of the game. I believe what you will find is that the AI doesn't take into account the number of horses left in the unit and reduce its charge value by a given %. It still acts as if the unit is 40 horses strong. Since, as stated in the MTW guide, horses ALWAYS push back foot soldiers, this would account for the loss of morale to the point of routing. Two solutions are available in my opinion:
1. The developers could take the "speed of fatigue" factor back to its original settings. They changed it in the patch because people were complaining the horses tired too fast, but they also decreased their cost, which given both is the cause of our problem.
2. The developers could increase the base value of all unit morale by 2. This would also, keep the cav charge from routing your men before they even fight.
Another thing you might not know is that reducing a unit's morale also effects its fighting ability. For instance if you are fighting a similar unit head to head and you bring a unit that causes fear and begin shooting at the enemy unit,you will notice that the enemy unit will go to uncertain and all of a sudden begin losing the battle. It is not due to the killing of the men, but to the morale reduction which reduces fighting ability. That is why my all missile army is so effective in routing superior foot troops and most cavalry, (except lancers).
Same with cavalry, the pushback effect reduces morale and thus your high val spear unit's fighting ability becomes reduced drastically. At the beginning of the game, it is not as noticeable, but at the end of the game when fatigue becomes a factor, it is easily seen. A good example of this is once again my all missile army. At the end of the game, if my handgunner units are around, or my naptha and murabitin units, or even my arquebusier units . . . enemy units will not kill many of my handgunners in h2h. Even though the enemy unit may have superior stats, the same fatigue factor and twice the men of my handgunner unit, the handgunner will normally win, because of the morale reduction from fear. Try it and see.
Magyar Khan
01-09-2003, 21:22
true elm, i got teh idea that the bonusses and stuff is calculated on teh whole unit, not 3/40 part of it.
well another part of the solution remains as well, dont let units gain valour during combat. koc knights were most likely h0 at start and were at least h2 when they attacked.
the bonus gained is another stupid feature, since it doesnt benefit anything besides the vet playing the the unaware noob.
The Chiv Sgt uses a spear not a halberd. The spear is primarily a defensive weapon in this game, so it's not going to go chopping down cav even if it charges. If it had been facing the cav, the cav charge would have been cancelled. It wouldn't have lost 6 men quickly which is what I think caused the rout. If that Chiv Sgt doesn't rout on contact, then it will almost certainly beat the cav.
Any inf man not facing a charging cav with a spear gets pushed back. Any man who gets pushed back grants to the enemy man a +6 melee bonus on the next combat cycle. The v3 Chiv Sgt starts with 100 men and has morale = 6 which isn't a high morale to begin with. Even a full 100 man v3 Chiv Sgt is at risk operating on it's own. In the example, it's down to 32 men (-? morale) and very tired (-2 morale). If the spear is still trying to form up as it appears to be, it's subject to a flanking penalty (-2 morale). It could be suffering a morale penalty for being outnumbered by enemy units' but I can't tell. It's also suffering a combat penalty for being very tired. There is apparently also a morale penalty just from being charged by cav. Morale penalties have nothing to do with the number of men in the unit. It didn't in STW and it doesn't in MTW.
The whole point of all of this it to make it possible for a cav unit to rout a unit that could otherwise beat it if that unit is hit in the rear or on the flank. The rear attack is considerably more damaging to the unit being hit. If the morale of the 3 man cav unit had been low, it would never have actually made the charge. The cav unit would turn and run away. I've had that happen many times. This cav unit may have gotten a morale boost from just winning a previous fight, and could also be even more than v2 since it's only 3 men and you won't see more than 2 small flags in that case. Regardless, the cav in the example has enough morale that it will make contact.
Once engaged, a dice roll is used to determine if you kill a man or get killed. With large units many dice rolls and many kills are needed to determine who wins. That will smooth out the uncertainty. With small units there is more uncertainty. Players who want less uncertainty could consider playing at the next larger unit size.
There is also something to be said for playing at higher florins. The v3 Chiv Sgt could be a v4 Chiv Sgt (morale 8) or a v4 Order Foot (morale 10). Infantry will fight longer which means more time for flanking. Cav becomes less effective because it cannot rout units on contact as easily, and valor upgraded cav doesn't get battlefield valor increases as easily as it does when you can field it at v0. These battlefield upgrades are a factor in making very small units unexpectedly effective later on in a battle.
I'm not surprised that the 3 knights routed the 32 Chiv Sgts. It matches the "feel" of the battles that I have because the v2 Order Foot I usually use is very similar to v3 Chiv Sgt. The "feel" changes at different florin levels. I don't do well at 30K because my feel for the game is based on 15k, but I'm considering moving up to 20k/player.
Fast,
All the spear units are defensive units. They don't get a lot of kills. They don't have a high charge either. If you saw each of those knights pushback a chiv sgt, then those chiv sgts were not fully set. And, if the knights did get the puchbacks, they retained most of their charge for the next combat cycle and possibly into the 3 cycle as well. I doubt the Chiv Sgts got their rank bonus either.
well if 6 of your freinds in your unit were crushed by horses i wouldnt stick around to see more die http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Magyar Khan
01-10-2003, 01:39
1 correction, sorry it were chiv men at arms, those that start with 60 men and teh ones people tend to use more often
furthermore as Fast said teh unit was actually charging teh knight, just after they turned, so all men were facing teh incoming knights.
plz could u make a new calculation of this Puzz3D?
-------------------------------------
32 chiv men at arms v3
7att 7$def 5$armour 10 morale
------------------------------------- FACING
3 knights v2
7 7 7.5$ 12morale
-------------------------------------
if u like i can send u the replayfile in private.
Magyar Khan
01-10-2003, 02:21
i also saw it was 3 on teh impact and immediatly 3 after it
Puzz3D will have more accurate number/insight. Let me do quick math (pull out a brandnew calculator, take this an exercise to help my math rating):
Chiv.MAA has charge bonus of 3. Chiv.Knight has charge bonus of 8. The knight also has bonus against infantry (i believe +2). This makes the chance to kill of 3 + 7 - 7 = 3 vs 8 + 2 + 7 - 7 = 10.
This is an expoential part of the equation.
So the chance 1 CMAA kill 1 CHiv.Kn. is 0.19 * 1.2^3 = 0.32
while the chance the Chiv.Kn. kill a CMAA is 1.2^10 = 1.17.
That means on the charge itself (the first few animation cycles) the Chiv. Kn. surely kill at least a CMAA each blow, while the CMAA has only 1 out of 3 chance to kill the knight.
Now, let's throw in the numerical advantage of CMAA (32) over the Knight (3). Numerical advantage only happens if all men can fight the knights at once. But only a few front line CMAA participates in the fight. My estimate is that it is 2 or 3 men/knight. Even at 3 men /knight, the CMAA can poke at the knight 3 times while the knight can poke at the CMAA once. The knight has 1 sure chance to kill (chance to kill > 1), but three pokes of 0.32 chance doesn't equal to a sure kill.
Let's throw in another thing: the initial impact and the pushback. During push back, the CMAA may not have any chance to fight (this is to be confirmed, only my hunch).
With that alone, in the first 3 animation cycles, the CMAA may see 9 of their guys dead while by chance, there is none of the knight dies. That's more than 25% casualty in the first 3 animation cycles.
Then we go to melee mode. The charge bonus is gone, but the cav vs. inf. bonus is still effective. The knights has 0.19 * 1.2^2 = 0.28 chance to kill while the CMAA has 0.19 chance. The CMAA still are losing.
Hope this is helpful to you. It doesn't answer many of your question, this may only give an idea on the mechanics of it. Cav still has the power to turn men into monkeys in this game.
Annie
Anectdote about men into monkeys:
In a battle where Alrowan had 1 reg. of 40 lancers, and 2 reg. of 10 or so lancers. I had 2 full regiments of CMAA, 2 half regiments of Feudal Sgt., 2 half reg. of ord.foot. Although my men are tired after rushing to aid an ally, and spread out (am struggling to regroup them back), the lancers just chased my men down one reg. at a time, even the ord.foot.
Afterward, I asked Alrowan: what do you feed your lancer. He replied: monkeys. And then I reealized all the corps littering the place where my regiments stood have tails... Somehow they became monkies...
Magyar Khan
01-10-2003, 03:25
monkies or not, i expect 32 men to beat 3 cav. i dont look at numbers and stats cuz as a guy who is fast with numbers i knwo it will spoil teh game for me. i rely perhaps to much on what i expect instead of some formulas.
perhaps we must saddle 3 devs onto an horse and 32 onliners oppose them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
DISCLAIMER to ORG STAFF
with plastic weapons ofcourse
I fully agree with Magyar. One of 32 men can at least chop at the horse or a bunch of them can help pull the knight down and finish him...
Well, simulation in unrealistic but what can we do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Treat it as another kensai incidence... Or monks... Or guns... or the lack of shields... in STW.
Annie
Dionysus9
01-10-2003, 04:41
#1 cav is too strong
#2 cav charge is too strong
#3 it looks like your mtd. sgts ran off too early, if they had charged the 3 knights I bet the knights would have lost a man or two--maybe even ran.
I can see the mounted sgts leaving through the back door (right) in pic #4, pic#5. Poor depleted CMAA are left all alone with more enemy troops coming pic #5.
Too many enemy, not enough friends staying to fight...run away
Ok. Here is my understanding of the system at work here with a few corrections of what I think are erroneous views:
1) I said that spears didn't have a good charge value. In fact most spear units have a charge value of 5 which is good and this can be increased +1 by rank bonus. Muwahid Foot are even better ith a charge of 7.
2) Morale does not affect combat ability. When you see a unit is "loosing", its morale is lowered. When you see a unit is "winning", its morale is raised. The morale changes are secondary effects of the combat. Having said that, I don't always see morale changes that seem track winning and loosing indications, and I think that's because morale is also affected by casualties, rate of casualties and what's going on around the unit. Loosing can incur up to -8 morale penalty depending on how badly the fight is going. I believe that all that's really important concerning morale is staying above the rout threshold.
3) The charge value shouldn't be reduced if a unit looses men because it's a indivudual attribute fo reach man in teh unit. The charge kills and thus overall unit effectiveness will automatically be reduced as the unit looses men.
4) The maximum number of men that can strike at a single man within a combat cycle is 2. I believe LadyAn correctly points out that the Chiv MAA cannot get multiple attacks in the combat right at the start. The initiative seems to be with the cav who pick a target and drive their lance home toward it.
5) I'm not aware of any +2 melee bonus for cav vs sword, and likewise a sword unit gets no combat bonus vs cav. In fact, cav is supposed to beat swords. This means that 40 mounted knights beat 60 sword infantry. It's possible there is such a bonus. There is a hidden +1 melee bonus for swords vs spears.
6) Chiv MAA is a sword unit. Non-spear infantry always get pushed back by charging cav. This is important because the cav not only gets +6 melee on the next combat cycle, but retains some of its charge momentum which probably means another pushback on the next cycle.
7) The Chiv MAA was very tired. Subtract 3 from it's melee value.
8) The Knight is quite tired. Subtract 2 from it's melee value, but add one back because the target is very tired. So, the net here is -1 melee for the Knight.
9) The Chiv MAA is 32 men. As soon as it looses 3 men, it's at less than 50% original strength which means -6 morale penalty if what Exile posted is right. I can't find this in the Strategy Guide.
10) There is a morale penalty for casualty rate. Morale drops by -2 for 10% rate, -8 for a 50% rate and -12 for an 80% rate. I guess 3 men killed on a 32 man unit each combat cycle is a 10% rate.
11) Some kind of morale penalty for the Chiv MAA for being outclassed and slower than the knight.
12) Disordered formation gives a -2 morale penalty. I think the Chiv MAA might be disordered, but I can't say for sure.
13) Proximity to an enemy unit gives -4 morale penalty.
14) Possibly the most important factor, which was pointed out by Exile, is the additional up to -6 morale penalty on top of the up to -8 morale penalty for infantry loosing to cav depending on how badly. I have reason to believe that this is now higher than -6 because LJ said he increased the morale penalty that cav inflicted on inf in the v1.1. The Strategy guide states that this penalty is provided to help cav rout an inf unit on contact since cav will loose in most melees with inf.
15) So for combat during the charge I would figure:
Melee value:
v2 Knight: 8 charge + 7 melee -1 fatigue +6 pushback = 20
v3 Chivmaa: 3 charge + 7 melee -3 fatigue = 7
chance to kill = 1.9% * 1.2 ^ (melee - def)
def value is 7 for both units
knight: 1.9% * 1.2 ^ (20 -7) = 24%
chivmaa: 1.9 * 1.2 ^ (7 - 7) = 1.9%
You could say that during the charge the knights are 12.6 times better than the Chiv MAA (24/1.9). So, 12.6 * 3 = 38. Looking at it that way, the 3 v2 knights are the equivalent of 38 v3 Chiv MAA during the charge.
Without the battle field upgrade from v0 to v2 the knight would be 5 melee and 5 def:
v2 Knight: 8 charge + 5 melee -1 fatigue +6 pushback = 18
v3 Chivmaa: 3 charge + 7 melee -3 fatigue = 7
knight: 1.9% * 1.2 ^ (18 - 7) = 14%
chivmaa: 1.9 * 1.2 ^ (7 - 5) = 2.7%
The knight is much less likely to kill the Chiv MAA men, and the Chiv MAA is slightly more likely to kill the knights without the battlefield upgrade. Simply looking at that ratio, the 3 knights would be equal to 5 or 6 Chiv MAA during the charge. It's unclear whether they would be able to rout the Chiv MAA during the charge, but I tend to doubt it. In the actual battle, apparently the Chiv MAA was not routed by the first 3 kills, but it was the second set of 3 that did it. After the charge, the v0 knight would be loosing the fight except i the case of an occasional pushback. Also the knight would have a base morale of 8 which would be lower than the Chiv MAA. That v0 knight only cost 650 florins, but the v3 Chiv MAA cost 1229. A v2 knight would have cost 1878. While it's true that the battlefield upgraded knight only has 3 men left, the Chiv MAA doesn't see it as 3 men from a morale standpoint. It just sees that a unit is there. Because the units must stay together, you cannot have each man act completely independently. Either all the men stay and fight or they all rout. Maybe all the morale penalties inflicted by a unit below 1/2 strength could be cut in 1/2.
In the actual battle, I'm surprised that the cav dropped 6 Chiv MAA right away with that 24% chance to kill. I'm not surprised that the Chiv MAA didn't kill any of the knights since they only have a 1.9% chance of getting a kill. The knight has lowered morale due to having more than 50% casualties to start, but the only other penalty it will get is the -4 for being in proximity of an enemy unit. Without a kill, the Chiv MAA has no chance of routing the knight.
These two units in the battle are actually equal in combat after the charge is over. If these units were fresh and at full strength, the v2 Knight will get about 10 to 12 kills on the v3 Chiv MAA in the charge. The morale penalties inflicted probably have to rout the unit for the knights to win. I know with both units at v0 that's what happens. I'm not sure about v2 Knight vs v3 Chiv MAA, but I suspect the Knight still wins by routing the Chiv MAA. If morale is raised too much, I think the Chiv MAA might start beating the Knight which isn't really what you want from a rock, paper, scissors standpoint.
Certainly, there are all kinds of morale penalties flying around the battlefield. I haven't mentioned flanking morale penalties because they apparently do not apply in this case, but they add to the total possible penalties. The Strategy Guide gives -16 as the rout point. All the v3 Chiv MAA has to acquire is -26 points of penalties and it will run away. While 2 or 3 penalties alone won't make a unit run away, it's not too hard to accumulate enough penalties to do so. I had a 100 man v2 Order Foot run away recently, but it was in the proximity of a lot of routing friendlies without much of any friendly units supporting it. At the other end of this same battle line I had v2 Order Foot involved in heavy fighting taking heavy losses and flanked that didn't rout. The difference was these Order Foot had support from friendly units.
With the exception of lancers, I'm not sure that cav is too strong at the beginning of the game. Cav cannot run over an army equiped with 8 anto cav infantry units. As it is now, show your flank in v1.1 and the cav will run you over. If it can't do that, then I think you end up with an infantry dominated game. In v1.0, I could see good players moving towards an infantry (primarily spears) rush strategy. The improvement of cav and swords in v1.1 is what stopped that trend. If cav hadn't been improved, swords would be dominating the game right now.
Some increase in morale would take cav down a notch relative to inf, and a return of spears to their original v1.0 costs wouldn't hurt either. Even with the cav ok for the first part of the battle, battlefield valor increases will tend to upset that balance later in the battle. You can't make static stat changes that will balance the battle over it's full duration when you're standing on the shifting sands of battlefield upgrades. I would be in favor of removing these upgrades from the game.
I really don't see solid reason for CA refusing to raise morale. While it's true that it would make it impossible to play very low morale games, virtually no one is playing the game at less than 10k florins/player which is a good indication that players don't like low morale games. Right now my minimum florin threshold is about 15K per player. I can't abide all the routing below that amount.
The way the game is now, in the later stages of a battle, scattered inf units are essentially dead if there are any enemy cav units around. Scattered cav you can usually retrieve because enemy cav can't catch it. On thing that might save and infantry unit trying get back to safety is if the enemy cav becomes exhausted.
Magyar Khan
01-10-2003, 10:39
Dion, teh mounted serg just were victoiuos and were standing if i remember well.
sorry puzz, my error at first, corrected later
the knigts do 3 kills and within a second another 3.
didnt try to remember your calculation, but your conclusion sounds good to me.
still 32 men should beatr 3 horses, chop the horses legs and whoops the knights are launched. did i say chop teh horses legs?
BomilkarDate
01-10-2003, 17:29
I have seen cav routing spearmen before, but never that bad. Magy's post made me think and as I was playing today I suddenly had the same situation.
I had only 4 heavy cav and 19 cav arc (mameluks, so they could fight h2h) left. My opponent had 4 units of spearmen (order foot, italian infantry and chivalric seargents). All about 30-50 men. I routed all his men from the field with my cav. I did no rear attacks. Some units ran without losses, just when the cav crashed into their lines. It was simply mad, 4 ghulam guards and 19 horsearchers against 50 italian infantry. The spearmen ran. If you try that with 20 ghulam guards and 40 cav arc in the beginning of the game, you will fail in 20 seconds.
Enough words written
ELITEofBOMILKAR
Magyar Khan
01-10-2003, 17:38
well i got your replay bomi and will look into it now...
Magyar Khan
01-10-2003, 19:26
seen it bomi
19 mamluk horsearcher and 3 ghulam general scared the shit out of 119 chiv serge and itialian inf
the inf were exhausted
the cav very tired
i am sure it was cuz of the same system, i just cant believe 119 are afraid of 22 horses
its prolly to do with exhaustion though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif when troops are exhausted it doesn't tkae much to make them run, i find that when you are winning a fight, you rout one end of the enemy line and work down the line with the spare units (well thats what i try anyway) to provoke the "chain" to rout, however you can only go so far as once the fatique sets in your own troops rout....i find you can take one army out ok, but in MP if you go straight to the enemy ally in the "chain" you wont reach the end unless your ally is also winning, so your men run even though they have the victory in the bag......fatique plays a big part here imo have seen this quite a few times but not sure if i have a replay example http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Baz,
The idea of the fatigue is to make it mandatory that you rest your men, and not be able to sweep all the way across the battlefield.
Mag,
Your 32 v3 Chiv MAA would have beaten the 3 v2 knights if they had stood and fought. Knowing the resiliency of the units and how far you can push them is a gamey thing. I said on Setp 9th that the morale was too low. It's now Jan 9th. I give up on this. I play at higher florins.
reguardless of the beauty in Puzz's answer, it is entirely unrealistic...
in a game some time ago(which i donot have a replay for):3v3, each lined up to and fell too. Bear Kuma had middle as a defender, and attackers right and left both succeded in routing their enemy(i was left)Kuma held off his attacker and began a lengthy retreat to a map edge. meanwhile the attackers grouped up, 2 far right, and myself far left...i closed the distance between me and kuma first...my forces were terribly weakened, i had mabey 200 men left. Kuma had atleast 400, and was in great shape compared to his opposition. while i was waiting for my alllies to get near enough for an assault, kuma charged me...i was unprepared, tired and strung together like a badly made crochette placemat. the second kuma's line reached my men he suffered an all-out rout. entirely unrealistic...gotta looove that accounting.
Magyar Khan
01-10-2003, 21:37
well puzz ur the one with some influence in this,
my goal would be that we get all sorts of tosasliders in TWR.
Postino,
I know Kuma uses the Byz and morale is an issue with them. No doubt Kuma's men were tired. If he waits to rest, your allies will link up with you. So, he decided to attack before they got there. What's not unrealistic is that he has a lost game. If he could beat you and then the other two attackers as well, that would strike me as unrealistic. Actually, there is no need for you to get even remorely close to him before you link up with your allies. By doing so, you gave him a glimmer of hope for a victory.
...if it were not for the subtlties of morale mechanics, i would have been beaten easily(my allies, however are another matter), and yes Kumas Purple Power Troopers do have morale issues. on top of this, both of his allies were routed, and the exhaustion. my allies were not near enough to make any effect and my folly was getting too close, but his wise attack *should not* have gotten turned like it did if any realistic pretences were followed. 2 to 3 times my # screaming their last charge should have had ME running like a puss, and only the fact that my allies were not entirely routed saved me.
i am just giving supporting eveidence for Teh Kahn's point. it is a game and no other game, to my knowledge, has even come close to modeling tactical combat as well as TW. there are, however, instances where the mechanics have betrayed common sense. i dont really view this as a shortcomming, one can only do so much with 1's and 0's.
EDIT:the first line in my previous post should have read:
Puzz's answer brings tears to my eyes with its preciseness and accuracy. however the chiralvics shouldnot have fled like ninnies if it were not for the games mechanics, for example: (i was trying to be quick because the the instructor would be arriving soon and he dosent like to hear keyboards clacking when they shouldnt be)
Magyar Khan
01-11-2003, 01:46
"however, instances where the mechanics have betrayed common sense"
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
Common sense.Hmmmmm hope these flaws will be ironed out in the future..
Hope the Dev's take note http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
They couldn't do that if they are not good players (even average players. This is not to say they are stupid or something, but they are good and get paid to make the game, while we paid to play the game). Every time the dev fix something, they break other stuffs.
I think I am resigning to the idea to just treat this as a game, a flawed one perhaps, but the one that gave me some fun.
Now I know how my men could turn into monkeys, I am trying to cast monkey spells on others. No doubts, you are doing as hard http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Annie
Magyar Khan
01-12-2003, 02:58
well i recently started doing it myself throwing 3-5 cav into every inf that smells tired and limps in teh neighbourhood.
maybe i must see it as a fantasygame\
the cav-unit is 1 creature that gets relativly stronger when it gets decimated until it dies.
teh inf-unit can be compared with a normal human...
now which unit represent the monkeys best?
Better set up a ZOO http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
longjohn2
01-21-2003, 01:26
So you've been sent into the meat grinder. It's been a hell of struggle, but in the end you've been repulsed. You've seen half of your best friends killed in various unpleaant ways. You've probably got a light veneer, of their blood and guts as a memento. Anyway, now beat as you are, you're hauling your sorry asses back to your lines along with a couple of equally beat up units.
You're releived to have got out alive, but it seems the enemy aren't going to let you retreat unmolested. You can hear the thunder of hooves of to one to one side, when all of a sudden there's a shout, and you realise you're being charged from the flank, You all swing round and see a group of knights charging full pelt at your unit. The guy in front of you struggles to get his halberd up, but his tired arms have no strength. The horse brushes it aside, and the rider runs him through, while the shoulder of the horse slams into the next man in line flinging him to the ground and under the hooves of another onrushing horse.
You have no idea that's there's only 3 enemy, because you're in the middle of a bunch of guys, and can't see much of enything except guys on horse slaughtering your few remaining comrades.
Now if you're the first guy to run, you might just get away. If you stand, and the other guys don't, you're certainly dead.
This doesn't strike me at all unrealistic. The guys fighting can't tell how many enemy they're facing, or whip out their combat calculators and figure out their chances. They break, when they've lost faith in their offices, or they don't trust their commrades to stand.
Cavalry vs infantry is all about morale. Charging low morale infanty is and should be effective.
good point, as the troops were disordered when hit. even if it dosent quite clear my conscience with my example.
it also brings up another point on how the units wheel when they should be able to quarter face and about face. in fact the units always wheel. this being fixed would also get grouped units to fall back properly when alt-right clicked as opposed as switching spots then running.
yes, i was in HS marching band http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Postino,
Units do about face without wheeling.
when chanhging the facing of a unit, if you turn it 180 degrees, the unit wheels. i have never seen it done differtently, how? each individual man should about face and be done.
if you want a unit to face right/left, then it has to wheel to keep its # of ranks and files the same. but here you coluld be able to switch the ranks and files by ordering a 1/4 face, as an alternate.
when you have two units grouped and you want them to move back you can left click or alt-left click. left click will will cause both units to wheel and change places and then move back. alt-left will get them to just wheel, walk back, and counter wheel.
clearer Puzz? if not then say so.
If you turn 90 degrees, the unit wheels. If you rotate the unit 180 degrees each man turns in place, but there is a slight change of position because the axis of rotation is centered on the first row. If you click or alt click behind a unit or group of units, each man turns in place 180 degrees, marches backwards and turns around in place (if you used alt). I do this all the time. BTW, you don't have to turn a unit 90 degrees. You can simply click to the side of the unit, and it doesn't wheel then either.
ok your right, i suppose i was thinking of the way moves are handled in groups cause the individual units really do about face. well i still dont like how group movements are programed.
and i couldnt get the side click to work without alt.
With the side click without ALT, you have to click beyond the edge of the unit which means your unit has to move out in that direction. You don't always want a unit to move out like than since it opens gaps between your units. I usually use ALT right click to rotate, and hit CTRL R to speed up the rotation if necessary.
Zitat[/b] (longjohn2 @ Jan. 20 2003,18:26)]So you've been sent into the meat grinder. It's been a hell of struggle, but in the end you've been repulsed. You've seen half of your best friends killed in various unpleaant ways. You've probably got a light veneer, of their blood and guts as a memento. Anyway, now beat as you are, you're hauling your sorry asses back to your lines along with a couple of equally beat up units.
You're releived to have got out alive, but it seems the enemy aren't going to let you retreat unmolested. You can hear the thunder of hooves of to one to one side, when all of a sudden there's a shout, and you realise you're being charged from the flank, You all swing round and see a group of knights charging full pelt at your unit. The guy in front of you struggles to get his halberd up, but his tired arms have no strength. The horse brushes it aside, and the rider runs him through, while the shoulder of the horse slams into the next man in line flinging him to the ground and under the hooves of another onrushing horse.
You have no idea that's there's only 3 enemy, because you're in the middle of a bunch of guys, and can't see much of enything except guys on horse slaughtering your few remaining comrades.
Now if you're the first guy to run, you might just get away. If you stand, and the other guys don't, you're certainly dead.
This doesn't strike me at all unrealistic. The guys fighting can't tell how many enemy they're facing, or whip out their combat calculators and figure out their chances. They break, when they've lost faith in their offices, or they don't trust their commrades to stand.
Cavalry vs infantry is all about morale. Charging low morale infanty is and should be effective.
yes exactly
You can also imagine his 3 heavy cav as great warriors who are known everywhere in their country as mighty men mounted on some of the most beautiful horses in the world. Those men ride onwards right up to u and seem to charge u without a blink of fear in their eyes. And you little spearmen (perhaps already injured) see them running towards your lines with their long swords that are already covered with the blood of ur fellow soldiers or even friends.
Honestly, who would dare standing in the first line then??
And if you are the first one who's simply smashed down by the knight thje others surely get panicked and try to escape from them. Additionaly there are those Mamluk Cavarchers. The spearmen do not know that they are cavarchers or how should they be sure that each one of the mamluks hasn't got a sword with him??
At least 100 men are not that much. If you go on the streets and see a bunch of 100 tourists or even policemen it doesn't appear to be so much.
Like everywhere in life it depends on the viewer's point (if u know what i mean by that (english is my second language) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)
Dionysus9
01-21-2003, 23:15
It makes for a good story, certainly, and a fair justification for the power of cavalry over depleted and tired infantry....but we must also assume that men who are on the battlefield LOOK AROUND. Ok, some of them have restrictive helmets, but their heads do turn. Someone who is falling back at a walk would take the time to look over his shoulder and notice 3 cavalry coming his way. Granted--he wasnt ordered to turn and face them, he was ordered to carry on....but when the 3 cav hit his unit, isnt he going to know its just 3 cav?
And the little cav trick works on units who are facing the charge (although slightly less), and it also works when they can clearly see or otherwise know they are being charged by a very small unit of cavalry.
Its not a big issue fore me, but it makes lancers and chivknights very powerful in the endgame. The honor boost gained from killing large numbers of enemy exacerbates this problem and makes heavy cav far more powerful than it should be imho.
Yesterday I started out with 4 chivknights and 4 lancers, all v0 with 1 wep upgrade. By the end of the fight I had a v4 chivknight (albeit only 2 men, but they'd never run), 3 v3 lancers, 2 v2, and 1 v1.
Of course these ubercav units were tired and low on men but their insane morale is more than enough to compensate. With the present situation this game is primarily a game of heavy cavalry. If that is how it was intended, then good job on CA's part. I prefer a closer battle between spears and cav, myself--but Im just one guy.
BomilkarDate
01-22-2003, 01:10
Tired Infantry should not rout. Routing men run. Exhausted men don't.
Enough words lost
ELITEofBomilkar
Magyar Khan
01-22-2003, 01:33
the problem starts with the unist upgrading too fast during battle
gaining expperience need a night to sleep on thinking in your bed.
furthermore the 30 inf dont know the 3 highly respected knights, if i se e3 knights and i have an halberd i would just chap the leg of of the horse.
and bomi is right. exhausting should effect battleskill more but not effect morale
if i think i am the best swordmaster in teh world but am very very tired and my allies run it wont effect -that much-0 my mind if i am tired or not.
ty puzz. the click to side is obvious, even if i didnt get the your meaning(click 90 degrees to unit and it turns 90 degrees). ctrl R...isnt that rout??? anyways, my big beef with marching will have to wait till i am in my position(project design leader) and ready for it(15 yrs at least). but when it comes, look out LongJohn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
and back to the subject:
my scenario is not supported by longjohns explanation (but it does explain Magyar's to the degree of game accuracy). mabey kuma's line suffered heavy casualities from the impact of his charge, but thats what happens when one disciplined army charges a stationary army. twice my # should not have routed so easily.
my classic general(val1 horse with excellent morale) will get to 3 or 4 morale by the end of a normal game( normal=no blitz). i use my general sparingly, very sparingly if i can. no more valor gain duriong battle.
Bomilkar is right, fatiuge should affect performance not resolve. if valor gain is meant to reflect battle success and unit morale, then couldnt the same thing be acheived by not having fatiuge expressed in terms of morale while valor gains only effects unit performance?(thus countering fatiuge to a certain extent).
valor gain remains intact, effecting unit performance.
fatiuge only effects unit performance.
moral only effected by battle circumstance(save valor gains).
lotta good those suggestions will do
and Magyar... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
Zitat[/b] (Magyar Khan @ Jan. 21 2003,18:33)]the problem starts with the unist upgrading too fast during battle
gaining expperience need a night to sleep on thinking in your bed.
furthermore the 30 inf dont know the 3 highly respected knights, if i se e3 knights and i have an halberd i would just chap the leg of of the horse.
and bomi is right. exhausting should effect battleskill more but not effect morale
if i think i am the best swordmaster in teh world but am very very tired and my allies run it wont effect -that much-0 my mind if i am tired or not.
one could argue about that for more than a lifetime...but mechanically seen it's a fault u're right.
(maybe the knights are great kings? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
Well very tired is only -2 morale points. That's not much considering an infantry unit which starts at typically 6 morale has to drop 22 points before it routs. Exhusted units do suffer a significant morale penalty, and should not be engaged in combat if at all possible.
The problem seems to be that these small, relatively strong cav units which can run down routing infantry get disproportionate battlefield upgrades relative to the larger but slower infantry units. The result near the end of the battle is extremely small cav units which can rout 10 times their number of infantry, and I think that's more due to the increase in combat power that allows them to inflict casualties on the infantry without sufering any losses.
Postino: Ctrl-R -> run or walk
Ctrl-A to select all units. G-G to undo all the grouping and then group them again in one big-gigantic unit. Click the point beyond the opponent army. Ctrl-R to make your army run instead of walking. And when they are at charging distance, Ctrl-O.
Try it, it works 3 out of 4 times. The only time it doesn't work is when the opponent charge back too soon, before you hit Ctrl-O.
Also, notice it is Ctrl-O, not Ctrl-0 or Ctrl-o key.
OK, now that I disclose the secret rout-bug key combo ...
Don't try it on me, I have the anti-cheat combo that will make your whole army run instantly... Try it on newbie isntead...
Annie
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif This is my disclaimer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Magyar Khan
01-23-2003, 01:26
and this is where a beautifull game becomes an arcade hotkey click fest... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
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