Val3 army

[LadyAnn]

I am starting a new whine about val3 rule. Please join the chorus everyone...

1. My Heavy Jan at val 3 costs a fortune. No wonder why they are heavy: their armors and shields are plated in gold.
What is a Turkish army without Heavy Janitors?

Annie
ps.: I don't whine about Jan Heavy, I whine about the fact that at val3 rule, I can't affort them at all. Usually, I play Jan.Heavy at val1 with weapon/armor upgrade instead.

I am just posting this topic because no matter which rule you come up with, there will be some whiners. I am not saying the Turks will be disadvantaged by the val3 rule, in fact, val3 rule may help them better.

[Kongamato]

You have sort of a problem there. You MAY want to shift further towards Cavalry to solve your problems. Under the v3 rule, the affordability of Islamic cavalry could come into play as an advantage. I play as the Poles, and I can remember that the Polish Retainers were quite good AND affordable in my v3 game. Why does this apply to you? Armenian Heavy Cavalry have the exact same stats and price. You will have to use the inferior Janissary Inf, but remember that their stats are still pretty good.

All in all just give the AHC a try.

You could also use my foldy-thing balancing idea, which has not been researched or experimented on, only blatantly advertised as of recent. It may very well make the game worse I would just like some feedback on it to see if it would work.
Anyway, your game came with a foldy-thing that showed off all of the units and buildings. On it, the units are all classified into specific types. These types are Spearmen, Handguns, Peasants, Skirmishers, Missiles, Artillery, Medium and Heavy Infantry, Light and Heavy Cavalry, and Horse Archers. By restricting the usage of units according to what is classified under a "type" to three, the game enters a new interesting balance. For instance, Foot Knights appear under Heavy Cavalry, so one would have to give up an HC seat for Foot Knights. Also, Saracen Inf appear under HC as well, so a max of 6 is possible.

lol it looks more flawed every time I study it but I wanted some feedback before my idiocy can be confirmed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[bosdur]

Well they start with morale 8 and is a fast unit (if my startegy guide is correct). Hence the high cost, hence the high inflation rate.

[Magyar Khan]

ur right ann, teh game should be more balanced with apatch. not by retsrting th game after every battle or usinf h3 units. archery is still weak against all combat armies.

[CBR]

Lol

Yeah you're absolutely right Annie..no matter what is changed there will be whiners..doesnt matter if its a patch, custom stats, some special rules for a tournament or V3.

The way unitcosts are calculated (by loads of multipliers) is IMO flawed as the cost difference between bad and good units are too big. The patch improved it a bit and we might be lucky so see some more in the expansion..but I doubt it will be really good.

Morale is generally too low...doesnt sound like they will fix that.

A seperate MP stat so any changes to units will be easier as they wont effect SP...I doubt it.

Decreasing armour on early era units and some other units and making changes to missiles to reflect history and improve balance..drastic changes that wont happen.

Hmm did I forget anything..its way over my bedtime so most likely I did...

So what can you do?...forget about MTW and find another game..just play the game as it is..make some custom stats..make rules..keep on whining about a patch that will never come?

This game had lots of potiential which has been wasted IMO..but I cant find any other game which has anything near the battles of MTW..sometimes I hate that heh.. but Im still looking.

I have pretty much given up on finishing my custom stats as no one would give a damn anyway...

Making some rules for max amount of different types of troops would have to be really complicated to be real good if they can be good at all

V3 armies is also a rule but a simple one and not perfect but, as I see it, the easiest way of changing the game as it is, as it will solve some of the big problems we have.

Ofc we can also just spend all our time whining about a patch or some flaws in the game or about how we are not enjoying MTW anymore (if we ever did) or about how much better STW was.. etc etc

I wont tell people what to do.

I just know what I want to do and that is trying to have fun playing MTW, instead of coming to this forum to find out that the fun epic battle I just had was not really fun nor epic and had nothing to do with skill at all and generally everything sucks..reading about Iraq makes me wanna go out and buy xmas presents compared to some things I read here.

Not directed at you Annie..just me rambling...bedtime.

CBR

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ Feb. 01 2003,01:30)]...

This game had lots of potiential which has been wasted IMO..but I cant find any other game which has anything near the battles of MTW..sometimes I hate that heh.. but Im still looking.
...

CBR
Heh, welcome to the club. We've been stuck with that same situation since STW came out.

Eventually someone will start competing with CA, and the race for quality will be on...

...until then I'm afraid we make do with the best computer wargames ever, albeit with vast untapped potential.

Its frustrating but thats life.

[Alrowan]

valour 3 games are fun... just need to chose the right army with them.. mind you the turks are given a huge slap in the face with JHI

[Cheetah]

why do not you play v2 battles? It gives +4 morale and JHI might be still affordable.

[Puzz3D]

Cheetah,

We started with v3 to see how that works. All v2 might give a better game than v3, but I haven't seen anything really wrong with v3 regarding christian factions. I'll have to look and see if muslim factions are weakened by this. They may very well be weakened, but their combo inf/archer units will be relatively cheaper. It seems to me that spears are going to be marginal in terms of morale at v2. By all means people should try some v2 games, but remember to lower the florins to about 15k to simulate a 5k game.


An,

Looks to me like you can still put together a nice Turk army at v3 and 25k. You can get 2 or even 3 JH1s with a nice balanced setup.

[Dionysus9]

I havent played any v3 armies and I havent really read all the posts in this thread, but I have a comment that I think is relevant to the V3 army experiment.

I understand the idea of the V3 army to be an attempt to experiment with the +6 morale 5k army, while essentially keeping other factors constant. (increase in melee and defense are canceled by other players' increases).

Ok, the problem I see is that the cost for infantry increases by a factor of 1.7 for each additional valor. So, like Puzz and CBR (was it?) said, $24,565 is the proper level of florins to emulate a +6 morale 5k army of INFANTRY.

As soon as you add ranged units the whole experiment gets messed up, because ranged units increase in cost at different rates, all of which are significantly below a factor of 1.7. So, basically, if you are using ranged units in your V3 army, you are in fact left with a ton of money to spend on upgrades for your infantry. Yes, the other players have the same benefit (and so it cancels out to an extent), but you arent truly emulating the +6 morale 5k army.

Just something I thought of and figured I'd mention. Sorry if its already been considered.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Feb. 02 2003,08:57)]Just something I thought of and figured I'd mention. Sorry if its already been considered.
Yeah we have considered it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Ranged units will mess it up a bit..we have tried a 22K game once but we havent played enough battles yet to judge what is best. But my guess is we should play with less than 25K.

CBR

[Dionysus9]

For infantry, the cost of valor increases is constant:\


Basecost*(1.7)^Valor

Unfortunately, for ranged units the calculation is not constant...the damn things cost all sorts of different amounts for increased valor. The calculations dont even remain constant for a given unit type So without a better understanding of the equations the game is using to put costs on ranged units, its REALLY hard to pull off...

oh, well, maybe we will get a morale slide in VI?

heheh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif (holding my breath)

[Puzz3D]

Ok, I'm going to make another pass at hosting 5k games with morale turned off (+12), and see how players like them.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Feb. 03 2003,19:26)]For infantry, the cost of valor increases is constant:\


Basecost*(1.7)^Valor

Unfortunately, for ranged units the calculation is not constant...the damn things cost all sorts of different amounts for increased valor. The calculations dont even remain constant for a given unit type So without a better understanding of the equations the game is using to put costs on ranged units, its REALLY hard to pull off...

oh, well, maybe we will get a morale slide in VI?

heheh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif (holding my breath)
We do know how upgrades work for missile units. They have a reduction to the default cost based on what missile weapon they use. Check the projectilestats.txt file in main folder, last column.

Example: Longbows cost 350 but using a longbow means a reduction of 250 so all the upgrades cost as if the longbow unit was a 100 florin unit.

CBR

[Dionysus9]

Doh ok, well then....

hm....it might be possible to properly emulate a +6 morale system with v3 armies then...but you have to start putting restrictions on the types (and number) of ranged units people could bring.

For example, in this case, lets say each player is allowed to bring 4 v3 longbows and now other ranged units.

So the $24,565 florins would have to be reduced by the "savings" you get from taking v3 longbows.

The savings are 350*1.7^3 minus 100*1.7^3 times 4 units....
so...

4(1,719 - 491)....savings of approx. $4,912.

$19,653 would be the proper amount of florins to emulate a +6 morale system at v3, with 4 longbow units.

Gah.....lots of work. Need morale slider.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif (still holding breath)