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Alastair II
02-16-2003, 21:33
I'm a newbie, but I think I can say that through my continuing self-education by reading these boards that I've become relatively well-accomplished without too much conceit, for a newbie, seeing as after 2.5 days and probably about 10 battles I'm something like 5-5 or 6-4. Though, being a newbie, I don't know any of your guys' records, so this might be absymal...

So I was on one of the hillyinland maps (I forget which one), and I was on the right. The center player, a Byzantine, set up to his far left, even though he saw that I had an arty general (that's a lesson learned; never bring an immobile gen&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Of course, the enemy center and enemy's left doubled me, and I, seeing that I would only get my army destroyed by fighting back, removed my 5 chiv sergeants, 4 pav arbs, and 5 lancers to right in front of the Byz formation, abandoning my 2 serps. Then, to add insult to injury, the Byz refused to include me in his line, and let me get flanked and doubled again After doing enough damage to the two enemies so that they were fatigued and weakened, I was routed off the field (with 2 arbs left to help). Then, the Byz won the game by fighting enough so that my arbs were routed off the field, giving me the loss, and then using his relatively fresh troops to rout the two enemies off the field (our left and their right had basically destroyed each other, leaving few survivors on either side)

What do you guys think about this abandonment strategy? Is it legitimate and completely fine, or is it rude and ineffective except with luck and an ally who doesn't turn on you?

A Somewhat Clueless Newbie

Nobunaga0611
02-16-2003, 23:30
First off, if someone refuses to help you, they aren't a very good Multiplayer ally, and probably aren't very good in general. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif The best thing to do in this situation is, for one, don't take an arty general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Also, staying close to your allies is important, so even if you ally is unwilling to help you, just being near them gives you more protection than if you're not, afterall, your enemies don't know whats going on on your side. If you did what you could to win then thats all you can do, just because your ally was the last to be on the field doesn't mean they won the game for you.

Puzz3D
02-16-2003, 23:32
It seems to me that you should not abandon an ally in team games, but the nature of the game is that a fresh army that sits back can win by chain routing two fatigued armies. As far as I'm concerned this is a gamey tactic, and when practiced without the consent of the abandoned player it causes bad blood since most people play team games for its cooperative aspect. What you ultimately have to do is to find players who play as part of a team to be your allys.

Now the prospect of the chain rout does create a problem. If you go to the assistance of an ally and don't get there in time, you will be caught in a chain rout. In a situation like that, it's better not to assist. I've been in games where a player doesn't understand this and gets annoyed that his allies didn't help him. An important aspect of team games is understanding how much distance you can leave between armies. Experienced players can leave more space because they react quickly to enemy movements. When timed properly, you can draw a double team and your ally will hit the enemy flank with advantage before you rout. As the anvil, you have to use hold formation and do whatever you can to slow down combat so the hammer can come down with full effect. Of course, this is never going to happen in a team game where allies are playing for themselves and not as part of a team.

MF_Ivan
02-16-2003, 23:35
It was his decision and he knew what he was doing, here's why:

Its obvious he identified you as a newbie( arty gen and artillery all together). So he deployed farther from you to prevent his army from being chain routed by your units (his assumption). Trust me, I have far too often had my army chain routed by an ally and its no fun to see five 100 man Order Inf start running away. Same reason for not wanting you in being part of his line, well that and he just didnt want you to mix with his troops (far too distracting).

I believe he had foreseen as to how the situation was gonna end up, (the right and left destroying each other). Upon this reasoning, he had made the decision to wait for the decisive moment to strike with his near fresh troops. He did so and landed the victory for his team.

Whatever works. My advice is keep your distance, communicate, ask for help when needed, and keep on playing. Just dont take it too personally, most vets who play know what they're doing and have a good reason for their decisions.

Intrust yourself to them and learn, forever grateful you will be.

ErikJansen
02-16-2003, 23:58
Communication is the key to 3v3 or 4v4 games. Keep talking and coordinating your movements, without team-talk you really can't do much to support eachother in time. When someone screams for help it's most often too late.

Keep plugging though and, as someone mentioned before me, keep learning.

GL N HF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Aleborg
02-17-2003, 17:54
In my opinion his way to act wasnt as a veteran. It seems that they havent any kind of communication and so on during the game. And imo in online MP games this is really the most important thing (of course the skill of each one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
Im not a newbie (well, near a newbie but not at all...), and if im gonna play a game, u can easy see if ur allie is a noob or not (now u see allies deployement before u finish ur own deployement, not like in STW), and the most important thing is to prepare a plan with all of ur allies in order to make the better deployements to reach that plan. So, if that guy saw his Gun general ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif , dont do it again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ), he could realise fast that his allie was a noob, so he should give him some tips and tell also the best plan.
Anyhow, imo to let an allie fight alone to get tired the enemies troop and then u play with ur fresh troops is not a relly nice way nor fair. Of course can works very well, but not very funny for me. Its much more fair and more skills required play a real 2vs2 or 3vs3 game and win it (even lose vs good oponents).
Well, if ur allie is koc, amp or so on u can let them play alone vs 2 and perhaps u will win without any dies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Marco
02-17-2003, 21:23
If centre guy wants to deploy left he should tell his right ally before deploying. Then at least the right ally could try and deploy far back and as left as possible to give him best chance of rendevouing with his friends before getting wiped out.

Orda Khan
02-17-2003, 22:27
I agree with Aleborg, if you don't help an ally what is the point in participating in team games? When you know your allies well, then you may not need to communicate and you react to their troop movement but if you don't it's best to work together. Also true in what Aleborg says is that it just is not nice to just abandon your ally.

I was in a 4v4 recently where we played all Byzantine v all Turk. I was 2 teamed from the outset whereby Toda sent half his army charging through mine. Man was I furious 'Oi' I shouted.'Get those men out of my ranks'......hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
As if
One huge mass of men as you can imagine ( all those 100 man units ) Confusing? Well it could be but with the unit fags at the bottom of the screen, no, not really. They had their orders and their unit flags give all the information.
........and just for the record we won that battle even though Toda dropped later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif His reaction to the threat was what won us the battle ( thanks Toda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif )

As for not welcoming battered units into his army, note his name and don't ally him again. If you needed sanctuary for your units you would be more than welcome to deploy them in my army...all around my general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I don't mind newbie or noob or whatever as a simple term as to a player's experience but some seem to use it as an insult. It makes me laugh, we were all newbies once and who's to say we are not still.
If it's any consolation one of my first games on STW, my ally was so fed up with attempts he attacked me Did'nt have a clue what was going on lol

......Orda

Dionysus9
02-18-2003, 01:32
First-- do not let your artillery chain you down to one spot or it is far more of a liability than it is worth. If your army isnt mobile you are in BIG trouble.

Second-- if your ally moves away from you-- FOLLOW HIM. Dont let your ally abandon you and you wont have this problem.

Alastair II
02-18-2003, 01:54
Most of the advices I have gotten I had already learned from this battle and was applying them in later battles, but just FYI Dionysus if you closely read I did say that I ran for it as soon as I saw I was being doubled. Maybe you were just giving general advice, but I just wanted to clarify.

baz
02-18-2003, 03:35
i think in most cases it is about letting your self get abandoned .. if you as a team put more units one side than the other then it is common sense to back off on the weak side and press on the weak side. However, i do appreciate sometimes you can get stitched up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Skomatth
02-18-2003, 04:03
try telling andy that ;P

Alrowan
02-18-2003, 04:16
when you have two allies march across one side, and get routed leaving just 2 to hold of three... i think you need to re-pick you allies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

tootee
02-18-2003, 04:54
It depends on what fun you wanna get from the game.

If winning is what you're look for, then I would say thats a pretty fine tactic, and the enemy didnt have to have two full army on you, just a few extra cav from the other opponent normally will do the job... so your opponents made a mistake to attack you in full, and probably suffer abit more-than-required casualty *plus fatigue* in the process.

If a sense of comradeship in battles give more satisfaction (if we go, we go together http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif), then thats a pretty selfish play I would say.

So its all depends.

YunDog
02-18-2003, 05:22
Im with Tootee - I had to reread your post cause I didnt understand why you were complaining - I mean your team won http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

sounds like the tactic worked perfectly - let the enemies exhast themselves chasing and fighting you all over the map and then your ally turned them - theres no I in team - all I hear is your hurt pride - but the final score should tell you he was a worthwhile ally http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

if you want all the hugs and kisses stuff you should join a clan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Alastair II
02-18-2003, 08:05
I wish I could join a clan... I just have this week off and then it's back to the 4-AP grind. That's why, now, I'm just playing a lot of MP and jotting down the lessons learned from every single game (I also save some replays and show my brother the good ones). That, in turn, is why I just won two 2v2's with only minimal help from my allies, in both cases mainly to hold the opponent until I could finish my own opponent and and get to his http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Sorry if I'm bragging, but I feel a right to a little pride after 3 days of MP (before last friday night it was all SP, and even then only hard Spanish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) I realize that I'm not up to your guy's standards, though, which is why at the beginning of every team game I offer to take orders if my teammates think they can help. BTW, I haven't seen any big-name superplayers (Koc, AMP, tootee, goldfish, Elmarkofear, Magyar, etc) around; does anyone know when these ppl are on (or if they are reading this, when are you on?)? I'd like to see true skill in action, especially against me (that way, I lose, and so I pay more attention). I do see your guys' point about the team winning, BTW.

Kongamato
02-18-2003, 09:11
The best time to find a good environment is an UglyElmo game, which usually occurs late night EST, such as 12:00 or so. You may need a reservation though, make sure you identify yourself as the constructor of this here thread.

Crandaeolon
02-18-2003, 16:06
About 2000-0200 GMT (evening&night in Europe) is a very good time to find skilled players. Look for games with 15k florins per player and if they're passworded, identify yourself and someone should give ya the password. If ya see a game hosted by me, just PM me and I'll let ya in. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

About the florin amount... lots of people play games with 25k or even more per player. That's all right and good as they can be very fun, but IMHO one develops a better understanding of game mechanics at lower florins as the game is closest to balanced at around 5k-10k. The same principles apply to all game types, but those principles are more pronounced in lower florin games and thus are more important to learn. That's why playing at 15k automatically makes one better at 25k, but not vice versa. (Well of course playing at any florin amount makes you better at the game, but IMHO your skill increases faster at moderate florin amounts.)

Ok, enough hijacking and back to the topic of the thread. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I don't really mind being sacrificed as long as it's agreed beforehand. Sacrifice is a part of the game and it can be on any level from a single unit to an entire army... it can be a very effective strategy occasionally. And, I still recall a game where I was doubleteamed by 2 very good generals right at the start and my allies declared my situation hopeless, abandoning me. I lost but I didn't go alone, both of my opponents had about a quarter of their army left, very tired or exhausted, after I was routed. I got 1200+ kills that game... and they were _kills_, not captures... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Tempiic
02-18-2003, 17:12
Quote[/b] (ShadeCrandaeolon @ Feb. 18 2003,16:06)]That's why playing at 15k automatically makes one better at 25k, but not vice versa. (Well of course playing at any florin amount makes you better at the game, but IMHO your skill increases faster at moderate florin amounts.)
Perhaps... I dunno on what you base that on other than you personal opinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I do know there are some differences in the resulting playstyle between 15k and 25k games. Still superior unit selection, flanking and rear attacks remain essential in both types.

It's my opinion that a player used to 25K games still has a better chance against a player used to 15K games even when the 15K player is a bit better general in a 25K enviroment.

Crandaeolon
02-18-2003, 17:49
It is a personal opinion all right, and admittedly there isn't _that_ much difference. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif And some 25k fans are very good players. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yet I can offer some delusioned reasoning behind it. Most peeps just don't have the time and/or interest to learn all the ins and outs of game mechanics by studying lists of morale modifiers and unit stats... and it's understandable. (Actually I wish they would have remained forever hidden behind the "very good attack" "poor defense" "excellent morale" etc. -descriptors to add uncertainty and suspense to the game)

Anyways, even without boring studying, players develop an instinctual understanding of the mechanics. They know that units may start to waver if an enemy unit gets behind them and they have an idea of why that happens ("worried about flanks"), but they don't know the exact numbers. Playing with lower florins makes the morale mechanics more pronounced (units are not "impetuous" or "stable" most of the time) and the base stats of units become a bit more important, wouldn't you agree? This forces the player to compensate by thinking more about upgrades, unit selection, unit placement, matchups and maneuvering. Game mechanics are a bit like rules. Knowing all of them isn't strictly necessary, but it certainly doesn't hurt. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Again, this is just a personal opinion and everyone must know by now that I'm a madman. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Tempiic
02-18-2003, 19:10
Yes i wished so too that the exact stats and modifiers remained hidden behind catching yet vague descriptions. But oh well I have to settle with being able to upgrade weapons and armour to surprise my opponent. I can tell you its quite fun hitting your opponent with 7 att, 5 defence murabitin infantry after some javelin barrage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yup I agree that in 15K games basic unit stats are very important, which imo makes these sort of games more focussed on unit selection, roughly determining 2/3 of a battle outcome for a 15K game while 1/3 for a 25K game (wet finger guess). Perhaps thats why you often see same factions and unit set ups in 15K games over and over... Least I have the impression that I see more often the same armies in 15K compared to 25K ones, eventhough i think only 25% of all my games are 15k ones on the moment;)

I think it forces a player more to focus on unit selection than when compared with a 25K game... Upgrades, manouvering, unit positions and matchups are IMO roughly equally important in both kind of games, but the overall impact of them in 15K games are lowered since unit selection plays a much bigger role. I do have to say that manouveres that will win you a 15K game can cost you the game if its in a 25K enviroment, and other way round.

Crandaeolon
02-19-2003, 01:34
Lots of interesting points and it's very enlightening to discuss florin amounts with a smart human being instead of a "99k rocks, 15k sucks" -type argument. Thanks, N. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

One thought I'd like to throw on the table is this: How much time does it take to learn to pick a competent selection of units compared to learning how to effectively control units in battle? Much less, I'd say. 4 knights v0 w1, 4 Pav Arbs v1 a3, 4 CMAA v3, 4 Militia Sarges v4 or Swiss Halbs v2a1 or Billmen v2a1. That's a very competent army at roughly 15k florins, and it probably took ya less than 15 seconds to read. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

This is a point that many vets complain about, actually. Army selection counts for too much compared to skill and some peeps are griping about it. At higher florins army selection isn't as important as ya can compensate a suboptimal base units selection with upgrades, but an army composed of good base units at 15k is still very effective at 25k. (The other way around is not always true.) This is because of the diminishing returns when upgrading, i.e. the units usually improve less in combat ability compared to the florins spent. (There are a few "cheesy" exceptions, though.)

I like 25k because it allows you to use some surprising upgrades, but because of these diminishing returns in upgrades the _overall_ power of the army is less if some areas are emphasized over others. I'm a boring versatility-over-specialization -type person and like my armies to be as "flat" as possible. I'll always upgrade valour first if I have the money (exception: missile units), weapon and armor upgrades come secondary.

The increased morale at 25k allow for more daring maneuvers than at 15k, as a result many of the 25k players I know are much less cautious than 15k players. IMHO caution is better than recklessness, at least in this game, as mistakes may sometimes cost the whole game. I derive my opinion from this observation, and still believe that solid, relatively risk-free playing at 25k brings better results than reckless play at 15k. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have learned a lesson, though. I'll play a couple of 25k games a night from now on. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Alastair II
02-19-2003, 04:02
Shade: Why the Militia Sarges? Is that mainly for German and English factions, or does the equivalent apply across all factions? B/c in my wanderings I came up with these two that worked where all others failed:

Spanish: 5 lancers 1 or 2 valour, 4 pav arbs w/armour upgrades, 5 order foot w/weapon &/or valour, 2 feudal foot w/any kind.

Turk: 5 Jan Inf w/valour, 3 Hvy Jan Inf w/armour or weapon, 5 kwar cav w/valour, 3 Arm Hvy Cav w/armour or valour.

I haven't been playing long enough to polish these to specific numbers, but it seems to me as if the inclusion of weaker units like Militia Sarges and specialized ones like Halbs is unnecessary. Is this just a matter of opinion (and taste), or is your army objectively better?

Marco
02-19-2003, 07:21
Alastair, if you pick 5 of any unit you incur a small penalty tax. Your money might be spent wiser by picking 4 of one unit and 1 of a similar one. e.g. like 4 lancers and 1 knights of santiago

ErikJansen
02-19-2003, 07:50
Although 15k Florin games seem to be the standard used by most experienced players these days, higher florin games, even a 25k game (4v4 full up with coin http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ), can prove VERY interesting.

Played one such game earlier and the extra 10k does give you a lot more room to play with upgrades, and as such it makes the army you bring more unpredictable. Another good reason to be cautious even in a 25k game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I know this is the wrong thread for the small tip I'll hand out too, but try bringing a Turcoman to the field with v0 a3 w3 if you got some leftover cash. The low valor makes them bolt towards your line if they get caught, and the extra weapon/armor upgrade makes them tougher. Most times I played this combo, which is dirt cheap as well, enemy anti-harassers often got more than they could chew. Something I wouldn't have experienced if not for the fun fun 25k game

25k game ----> http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Aleborg
02-19-2003, 10:24
I think it depends which kind of game u want to play.
Imho all games require skills from player, even the 99 ones, coz in them only one can win, no?
But Im agree with Cranda that in order to learn fast the rules of the moral, routing units and so on, u will learn easy with low florins (koku?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ) games.
Have u try a 1000 florins game sometime? Well, it is a quick game, but very funny and very skills needed to win (well, depends of course of ur opponent), try to play one vs Lorted, he was a proffesional on that kind of games in STW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif (Hooowl Ted http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). But if u dont have care u can see ur whole army running practicaly without engage enemy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

And another thing, thx to the valour upgrade during the battle try to buy ur lancers with valour 0 and if u have some money for them upgrade the weapon. Then, during the main battle and after that u will have some lancers with upgrade weapon and valour 1, 2 or even 3 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Crandaeolon
02-19-2003, 14:00
Quote[/b] ]it seems to me as if the inclusion of weaker units like Militia Sarges and specialized ones like Halbs is unnecessary.

Ah, it's a military secret. If I told you I'd have to kill you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

How are Militia Sarges weak and polearm units specialized? Let's see:

V4 Militia Sergeants: 1253 florins, 60 men, Attack 6+AP, Defense 7, Armour 3, Morale 8.

V3 Chivalric MAA: 1229 florins, 60 men, Attack 7, Defense 7, armour 5, Morale 10.

They're roughly the same price, are same size and have similar combat stats. Sarges trade one Attack point for Armour Piercing, which gives the Sarges a bonus to attack if the enemy unit has more than X armour (can't remember the number, I'm thinking it was 2 after patch and 3 pre-patch. Yuuki?).

The CMAA get a combat bonus against spearmen (+1 attack IIRC), but Mil Sarges perform equally well or slightly better against Order Foot soldiers, the most commonly used spear unit. All in all, in my book v4 Mil Sarges and v3 CMAA are quite similar units, used in a similar way. Mil Sarges absolutely destroy heavily armoured units like foot knights and Janissary Heavy Inf and are decent against mounted knights even though they do _not_ get any bonus vs cavalry. The weak spot of Sarges is archery, but as Arbalesters are the most commonly encountered missile units and they have an armour modifier of 0.3, it doesn't really matter much if armour is 3 or 5.

Now, onwards to Bills and Halbs. They are _not_ specialized; actually they are the "jack-of-all-trades" -units. They can hold their own against other infantry, be it spears, swords or axes, but they really shine in killing cavalry. In that respect they're specialized, yes, but IMHO spearmen are inferior to polearms as spears can only _stop_ cavalry, not kill them quickly and spears _will_ lose against swordsmen attacking in wedge formation.

If the opponent is kind enough to charge yer spearman or pikeman line head-on with cavalry and slug it out to the end, the pointy sticks will triumph with less casualties than a comparable unit of polearms, but this seldom happens as most players have enough sense to withdraw their cav if the cav encounters a spearwall.

I hope this answered your questions. If ya have more, don't hesitate to ask http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Puzz3D
02-19-2003, 20:51
Aleborg,

That trick with the v0 cav in 15k games is one reason 25k games are better. The trick doesn't work as well because v0 cav, even lancers, are not as effective in 25k games. In general, cav is weaker vs inf at 25k because the cav's charge bonus is not increased with upgrades and it's harder for the cav to rout the higher morale inf. If the cav is valor pumped, then the battlefield upgrades on cav are reduced. Incidentally, the pumping of the cav makes it work a little better against something like a pav arb which is probably not going to be valor pumped very much. That represents an enhancement of the rock, paper, scissors aspect since cav should be an effective anti-ranged unit. Of course, heavy pumping of ranged units with their discounted upgrades works against that.

Also, cheap units like Byz inf are already maxed out at v4 in 15k games and can go no higher in morale no matter how high the florins. So, there is a subtle shift in the optimal army at these two different florin settings. That valor 4 upgrade cutoff is coming into play at 25k. I think a few more unit types become useful at 25k which indicates that the game is balanced better at that level.


Cran,

I agree that it's harder for a 25k'er to play at 15k than a 15k'er to play at 25k. I think the reason for that is the 15k'er keeps his/her army in more of a compact group and this style of play will still work at 25k while the 25k'er has been playing in a more open style that won't work as well at 15k due to routing of units with inadequate support. What constitutes adequate support is different at the two different florin levels, and the 25k'er tends to underestimate it. Also, because units tend to fight longer at 25k you have more time to carry out flanking maneuvers. The 25ker's timing on flank attacks is going to tend to be a little late as is his timing of sending help to an ally.

I think at 25k, proper unit matchups, flanking and use of reserve units are all more important than at 15k, and you have more time to carry out all of these maneuvers. The lower the overall morale the more the game is a race to see who can rout the first unit. At higher morale, you have to win more individual matchups to win the overall battle. And what is the price for this type of gameplay? Less chain routing, less hitting CTL A and R to recover routing units which are scatter all over the map, less of a rush type of game and less routing before contact. Keep in mind that the jump from 15k to 25k buys you a relatively small +2 morale overall, so morale is by no means removed from the gameplay.

It's true that at 25k you are operating on average at about +6 morale above a 5k game, but do people realize that the rout point has been raised from the -24 it was in STW to -16 in MTW? That's a loss of 8 points, and on top of that units were purchased at honor 2 in STW which added another +4 morale. Some of the morale penalties have been reduced in MTW, but even so the overall feeling in MTW is of much more fragile morale than we had in STW.

AP bonus = (target armor - 1)/2

Alastair II
02-20-2003, 07:46
So does that mean that if we played at 5k with morale off, we would have an STW game?

Tempiic
02-20-2003, 11:08
Well since Yuuki made a reply I can find myself very well in, telling it in a clear way, surpassing my attempts not much to add i guess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]One thought I'd like to throw on the table is this: How much time does it take to learn to pick a competent selection of units compared to learning how to effectively control units in battle? Much less,I'd say. 4 knights v0 w1, 4 Pav Arbs v1 a3, 4 CMAA v3, 4 Militia Sarges v4 or Swiss Halbs v2a1 or Billmen v2a1. That's a very competent army at roughly 15k florins, and it probably took ya less than 15 seconds to read.

Not much time yes... especially when someone else comes up with it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Problem is that in 15K games that type of army is all what i see http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif There are only like 4 or 5 worthwhile factions to play with in a 15K enviroment with roughly the same units picked over and over with roughly same upgrades. Does get boring quickly, especially when they are factions you dont like much playing with http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]I have learned a lesson, though. I'll play a couple of 25k games a night from now on.

Well you are more than welcome in our games. Sadly we dont play that much 25K games on moment since all leagues and tourneys are at 15K (with often silly restrictions to army selection... yup really shows how balanced it is in 15K) so we need to practice much more in 15K enviroment... Some of us do very well in 15K... I don't on moment so I guess i'll start playing only spanish or byz till I am more adapted.


One thing what starts to worry me though, is that I am starting to notice that I am sometimes talking as if I am a jaded vet when I had another 15K game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Krasturak
02-20-2003, 14:01
Gah

Krast has been abandoned and has led his team in maneuvers that abandoned others.

So long as it results in many heads for the soup, it's fine ... if you aren't willing to face the enemy alone, get off the battlefield.

Gah

Knight_Yellow
02-20-2003, 14:17
well abandond not realy but left to be triple teamed yes.


funnily enough i do a lot better against 3 armys attacking me all at once than just 1.

its not uncomon for me to single out just 1 weaqk unit get it to rout and watch as over 2000 enemy troops mass rout.

btw my army is always 1/4 militia seargents they absolutely rock at val 4 and 1 weapon upgrade.

Puzz3D
02-20-2003, 15:29
Quote[/b] (Alastair II @ Feb. 20 2003,00:46)]So does that mean that if we played at 5k with morale off, we would have an STW game?
Alastair II,

We tried that in a number of MP games, and the +12 that morale off gives is too much of a boost. It's not simply a global shift of morale between STW and MTW because some penalties are different but not others. In general, the effective morale reduction between the two feels more like 4 to 6 points to me.

Orda Khan
02-21-2003, 00:21
It's the point that Tempiic made about 'all armies looking the same', this is my main concern. There are so many units that simply can't cut it on the MP stage and it's such a shame. You can try to be different but on the whole you won't last long.

.....Orda

Alastair II
02-21-2003, 07:33
Orda, this thread was originally for the discussion of intrateam relations in team games, and then turned into a discussion of army composition. Nowhere did anyone invite you to come and complain about MTW, and your complaints are not welcome. Perhaps you could contribute something to the discussion that does not fit into your so cherished mold of making digs at MTW, and that could possibly help others enjoy the game.

Crand: I have another question, after thinking about it for a while. How do you know when to take Milit sarges and when to take Halbs? B/c it would seem that you're taking quite a gamble if you take no anti-cav and the opponent takes a more cav-heavy army than you do.

Orda Khan
02-21-2003, 11:30
Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Feb. 17 2003,15:27)]I agree with Aleborg, if you don't help an ally what is the point in participating in team games? When you know your allies well, then you may not need to communicate and you react to their troop movement but if you don't it's best to work together. Also true in what Aleborg says is that it just is not nice to just abandon your ally.

I was in a 4v4 recently where we played all Byzantine v all Turk. I was 2 teamed from the outset whereby Toda sent half his army charging through mine. Man was I furious 'Oi' I shouted.'Get those men out of my ranks'......hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
As if
One huge mass of men as you can imagine ( all those 100 man units ) Confusing? Well it could be but with the unit fags at the bottom of the screen, no, not really. They had their orders and their unit flags give all the information.
........and just for the record we won that battle even though Toda dropped later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif His reaction to the threat was what won us the battle ( thanks Toda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif )

As for not welcoming battered units into his army, note his name and don't ally him again. If you needed sanctuary for your units you would be more than welcome to deploy them in my army...all around my general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I don't mind newbie or noob or whatever as a simple term as to a player's experience but some seem to use it as an insult. It makes me laugh, we were all newbies once and who's to say we are not still.
If it's any consolation one of my first games on STW, my ally was so fed up with attempts he attacked me Did'nt have a clue what was going on lol

......Orda
Hmmmm seems one little native really has lost the plot. Quote from page one. On topic
Was your morale off, 5k, STW game comment anything to do with being abandoned???
It seems you have a problem. Take a look around and see how many off topic replies there are to threads.
But there, it looks like you can never resist a cheap shot.

....Orda

Crandaeolon
02-21-2003, 12:48
Quote[/b] ]when to take Milit sarges and when to take Halbs?

The reasoning behind using only CMAA and Mil Sarges as melee infantry is that such infantry can outperform any infantry that has spear or expensive polearm units, leaving your cavalry to counter their cavalry. Better have knights in that case. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It is admittedly a bit of a gamble to take only Sarges and CMAA, and you can bet that if I'm against the Spanish I _will_ pick some halbs. But, remember that Militia Sarges do actually quite well against heavy cavalry because knights are heavily armoured and the Sarges have AP. (Their AP attack bonus against mounted knights is usually around 3, same as polearm units, though poles get an extra point of defense. And of course most polearms have AP on top of the bonus vs cavalry.)

Basically, Militia Sergeants are just a replacement for CMAA, and perform better against heavily armoured units (=units that have at least 5 armour).

Any more military secrets to reveal? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And Alastair, I think Orda's mainly concerned about archery and perhaps the tactic of using an army of heavy cavalry in thin lines. I think we can all agree that MTW lets ya field armies that are far from historically accurate, and that's the source of many problems. Human beings are also very good at exploiting tiny imbalances.

Tempiic
02-21-2003, 15:31
Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Feb. 21 2003,00:21)]It's the point that Tempiic made about 'all armies looking the same', this is my main concern. There are so many units that simply can't cut it on the MP stage and it's such a shame. You can try to be different but on the whole you won't last long.

.....Orda
Then I suggest you quit playing 15K games and try out some 20 or 25K ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Much more room to be different... Might get surprised how many units will become usefull then