Great Wall

[Kongamato]

I thought of a team tactic in 3v3 and up games and decided to see what you thought of it here in the Jousting Fields.

2 players pick the English, at least 1 takes Spain. Each takes 8 spear units. It should be possible now to stretch these spear units the entire width of the map in a continuous line. Now behind this on the English armies will be an assortment of Kerns and Longbows, which have fire at will off. The Spanish army will have 8 Jinete units behind its spear wall.

Now how this works is the wall moves forward as one, and wherever it encounters resistance the Spanish player sends an amount of the Jinetes behind that part of the wall, assisting the Kerns and Longbows in missiling the men the line encounters. If need be, the Jinetes can travel past the line, flanking the units engaged with it in melee.

If done right, this wall will be unflankable and will have a continuous rank bonus, along with multiple missile demoralization units. I have seen armies of Byz inf and Naptha throwers perform a similar feat, but not on a team scale. This strategy unfortunately does not account for terrain, and would only be used on flat maps.

Do you think this would work if applied properly? Have any of you tried this? Please give me some feedback.

[Nobunaga0611]

I've thought about it, but it depends on what map you do it on. Some are simply too large. And if your opponent is smart they'd attack at one point in the line, and either break through or wait for you to react with other units in the line, as some people would be inclined to do. Then the rest would simply attack when your wall was broken. It might work though, its worth a try.

[Kongamato]

well the plan would be for the line to be on hold/hold, and if it were to be ganged all 8 Jinetes would be sent to the area.

[Nobunaga0611]

Yup its worth a try. It would be interesting to see if it works. The thing that I would hate to see, and I hate to see anyways, is when spear units are on hold/hold and they still, by themselves cause I don't tell them to, choose to rotate for some reason and attack. Bothers me to no end.

[Krasturak]

This tactic provides the opponents with unlimited initiative.

They may concentrate their force at any point along the line, and once they break in that's it ... the rest of your combat power is wasted.

And please note there are many better ways to concentrate power than bringing in a few Jinnettes.

[Brutal DLX]

I agree with Krasturak.

I assume the enemy will also consist of 3 armies, now, if each of those 3 armies concentrates on one point of your line,you cannot cover all these breakthrough-attempts with your forces behind the spearmen line. and as soon one army is through, it will cause havoc to your entire formation and this whole thing will fall apart.
The only way I can see it work is if you manage to confuse some unexperienced players with that setup..

[MF_Ivan]

Pavise arbs would just rip this formation apart, and some cavalry would deliver the final blow. Which would result in a massive chain rout. Nice try but the difficulty in setting up such a formation is not worth it. Keep it simple and stupid, otherwise when things get complex you'll lose track too fast too soon.

[Cazbol]

This idea has been used in a slightly upgraded version. It was called the Maginot line. Strangely it isn't used anymore.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Feb. 14 2003,13:01)]This idea has been used in a slightly upgraded version. It was called the Maginot line. Strangely it isn't used anymore.
Yes, I guess the map it was used on was too large.

[Cheetah]

First, arbs would shoot your wall into oblivion, not to mention cats or serpentines, but bzy inf would eat your wall for breakfast, and I am sure that it could be broken easily with a concentated attack of MAAs as well. So sounds good but much more vulnerable than it seems at the first sight. Of course, this should not prevent you from trying it, but dont put up your hopes high http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Nobunaga0611]

All what I was thinking. Your spears would have to upgraded a lot, all of them. And even then, it'll be difficult. Unfortunately the Longbowmen behind your front line would probably run out of ammo before you got even halfway across the map, and it would be kind of difficult managing to move them, make them shoot, and move your front line at the same time while managing the rest of the army. A good idea, but hard for 3 people to simultaneously work like one person. Worth a try if you have 3 people up for trying it though. We do stuff kind like this as it is. Basically keep almost no distance between you and your allies, and if you look at the minimap you can almost see a continuous wall across the map.

[DthB4Dishonor]

This was used in the past. Its called the Greek Phalanx, they would line up there spears virtually across entire battlefield and just march through enemy.

The downfalls are explained by the guys above. The reasons phalanx worked was because it was a very deep formation which yours wont be. I'm fairly sure phalanx was atleast 6 ranks deep most likely more. Also just like the phalanx a very long 2 rank deep unit of order foot, ital inf or chiv sergeants will have a horribly slow turn radius which will take ages. So with thin lines that can be broken you cant even quickly move other front line units to plug up the hole or take advantage of certain situations.

I say give it a try on a small map it may work with a small map in 3v3. Try Patay That way you might even be able to keep your spear units 5-6 ranks deep and still cover entire span of map. GL its nice to see guys trying to use some creative thinking it was a nice read m8.

RTKPaul

[Kongamato]

"Creative Thinking"? HA

I have managed to considerably lower my reputation as a player through the posting of an obviously stupid and ineffective idea, placing me now among the ranks of the newbies who start each game with "WHAT OUR PLAN?"

Maybe in RTW... nope.

[Puzz3D]

Kongamato,

Your plan embodies tactical concepts that are very important in team games:

1) prevention of allies being flanked
2) countering enemy attacks all along the line
3) use of fast units to respond to theats

The spear is nice because it will stop cav as long as it isn't flanked and it will stand against inf long enough for help to arrive, but that help better arrive because the spear will eventually loose to sword units. Rather than try to span the width of the map which is an artificial tactic, you could try to develop this idea with both flanks open by having suitable units available to counter an enemy flanking move. A narrower front would allow for a deeper spear formation and be easier to cover with the reserve units. Those reserve units, whatever they are, have to be able to effectively counter an attack by sword units. Have the allies take pav arbs so as not to loose the shooting war. Armies with a lot of spears can be effective against cav armies, but their downfall is swords, so you can't become predictable in the use of spear heavy armies. There is no question that the spear wall effectiveness will be enhanced vs cav by several allies setting up a continuous wall.

[Shahed]

Indeed Arbs & Artillery would make a lot of trouble for this formation.

Having said that it's great to have some kind of team based strategy and formation tactics. A good source may be historical formations emulated to MTW.

[Monk]

arbs would take this formation down. another way i think would kill it was if 2 of ur opponets attacked the same spot on the line. while u divert ur entire force behind the wall to stop them your 3rd opponet would simply charge a different part of the line that was left weakend to help strengthen the point of attack. the 3rd would break thro reletivly easy, and start riding down your flanks. This would devistate you troop's Morale, before you realize it your so called "Great Wall" would crumble.

Sorry but i have to say a thin line of spearmen strung out across the map just wont hold a well planed assualt IMO.

[Shahed]

So when can we see a replay of this in action ?

If space needed email me and I can host it all measley 100kbs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Krasturak]

Quote[/b] (DthB4Dishonor @ Feb. 14 2003,11:26)]The reasons phalanx worked was because it was a very deep formation which yours wont be. I'm fairly sure phalanx was atleast 6 ranks deep most likely more.
If you'll permit a few words here ...

The phalanx was often 30 or so men deep.

It wasn't until the Romans that relatively shallow formations of 6 men were used regularly, although there are some examples among the Greeks.

The deeper formations require much less discipline and give greater control, as well as the crucial benefit to morale for those in the front of the lines.

Phalanx tactics go back much further than the Greeks, with examples being found among ancient Egyptian armies etc.

I'd like to try some experiments with this sort of spear formation some time if anyone is interested. Huge unit size required to make it work.

[Krasturak]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Feb. 14 2003,13:56)] I have managed to considerably lower my reputation as a player through the posting of ...
Not at all. Ideas make the world go around, and having the courage to post your very interesting idea is worth ten guys who thought about it and kept their counsel to themselves.

[Fairlight]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Feb. 13 2003,21:22)]I thought of a team tactic in 3v3 and up games and decided to see what you thought of it here in the Jousting Fields.
It will not work. Pavs would whittle it down. Or concentrated force -- three armies of force at one end of the line, for example -- will tear through it.

[1dread1lahll]

Your tactic violates general rule of ,'consentration of firepower' and could easily be defeated by persons observing it,.....but always good to be thinking..

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Krasturak @ Feb. 15 2003,11:22)]The deeper formations require much less discipline and give greater control, as well as the crucial benefit to morale for those in the front of the lines.
.. and I've always thought the reason they were so good at their times is because those peep at the rear kept pushing the front guys forward http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Shahed]

GAH Still no replays UGH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Panther]

Quote[/b] ].. and I've always thought the reason they were so good at their times is because those peep at the rear kept pushing the front guys forward
well that had something to do with it. The couldnt hear anything and just kept pushing forward unfortunatly spearing their friends quite often

[Puzz3D]

tootee,

In his book "The Face of Battle", John Keegan theorizes that pushing from behind is the reason the French lost at Agincourt. The French men-at-arms in the front row of a 10 to 20 man deep formation could not make evasive moves at the moment of contact while the English in 3 to 4 deep formation could backstep, bob and weave. In a few minutes, fallen men made the situation worse because now the French in front were pushed over the fallen bodies which caused more men to fall and the situation mushroomed. Once the front stopped advancing, the longbowmen apparently spontaneously charged down the flanks of this deep French formation killing a lot of men on the sides with their axes or whatever other hand weapon they had. The second French line advanced into this mass of confusion and routing men and was itself disrupted and routed. A lot of people think the French lost due to the English longbows, but that apparently was not the case. What the longbows did was induce the French to charge after a couple of volleys. We see this in MTW MP battles where the player who looses the shootout usually charges.

[Alrowan]

it works, thats all i can say

i played a game last night with kyle and black, basically we went 8 units of byz inf each v3 minimum, 4 units of pav arbs armour3 and the rest roaming cavalry, on a samll map we easily spanned the width and basically the enemy not being able to flank us and we then saw the battle won easily in our favour

[Kongamato]

Well, I figured that if spears+javs wouldnt do it, Byz inf would. I thought that if your forces were superior in numbers and unflankable, the javs would do enough work to stop the enemy.

[Shahed]

Hey Guys may i please have a replay by email or link.
Would much appreciate it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Alrowan]

i need the replay myself too, the game died on me after we had routed two of them, so im still wating for black to send me one

[ErikJansen]

Im signing up for a copy too boss

Can't believe you managed to win like that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[tgi01]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Let me be negative here : if a strategy works with byzantines that doesnt prove much , they are unbalanced ...

the question is if it would work with a "normal" faction and order foot .. and order foor at val 3 costs almost 2000 florin and at val 2 they have low morale ... on the other hand it might work in early ....

tgi01