The Greeks

[Heraclius]

I was wondering if the Greeks in RTW will be one bigger faction or a few littler ones like Athens, Sparta, Thebes or possibly Macedon (although they may be an entirely different faction). I think it would not be a good move to group them together. After all the ancient "Greeks" thought of themselves as Spartans or Athenians and not as Greeks. Interestingly enough I'm not sure when the term Greeks started getting used to describe Greek speaking peoples. Anyway, united or divided I will buy RTW the first day it comes out. If anyone has any answers to my question please post them.

[Spino]

Without a doubt the Greeks should be divided in RTW. Here is a list of the Greek factions (not including the Successor Kingdoms) that should appear in RTW (listed in order of power and/or prominence):

Macedonia
Athens
Achaean League
Sparta
Aetolian League

Combining any of these factions into a larger one would be a huge error in the face of historical fact, even worse than the conveniently lumped together city states of northern Italy into one faction in MTW. Arguably only Sparta should be relegated to non-playable, minor faction status as its brief attempt at resurgence was defeated by a Macedonian-Aetolian League alliance around 230BC or so. The fragmented, squabbling nature of Greece's numerous city states and confederations was the primary cause behind their eventual defeat by Rome.

[JANOSIK007]

Quote[/b] (Spino @ Feb. 24 2003,18:13)]Without a doubt the Greeks should be divided in RTW. Here is a list of the Greek factions (not including the Successor Kingdoms) that should appear in RTW (listed in order of power and/or prominence):

Macedonia
Athens
Achaean League
Sparta
Aetolian League

Combining any of these factions into a larger one would be a huge error in the face of historical fact, even worse than the conveniently lumped together city states of northern Italy into one faction in MTW. Arguably only Sparta should be relegated to non-playable, minor faction status as its brief attempt at resurgence was defeated by a Macedonian-Aetolian League alliance around 230BC or so. The fragmented, squabbling nature of Greece's numerous city states and confederations was the primary cause behind their eventual defeat by Rome.
Who consisted the Achean and Aetolian league?
And weren't the successor kindoms the kindoms that followed Persian Empire ( Sleucid, and Pathian )?

[Heraclius]

JANOSIK007,

I do not know the answer to your first question about the members of the Achaean league but I do know the "successor kingdoms" were the generals of Alexander the Great who divided up his immense empire after his premature death. They included Seleucus in Persia and the Middle East, Antipater in Greece and Macedon, Antigonus in Asia Minor and Ptolemy in Egypt plus numerous other smaller kingdoms. The Parthians started as vassals of the Seleucids and ended up conquering all Persia. They were Rome's greatest eastern foe. I do hope they divide the Greek factions though.

[JANOSIK007]

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Feb. 24 2003,20:10)]JANOSIK007,

I do not know the answer to your first question about the members of the Achaean league but I do know the "successor kingdoms" were the generals of Alexander the Great who divided up his immense empire after his premature death. They included Seleucus in Persia and the Middle East, Antipater in Greece and Macedon, Antigonus in Asia Minor and Ptolemy in Egypt plus numerous other smaller kingdoms. The Parthians started as vassals of the Seleucids and ended up conquering all Persia. They were Rome's greatest eastern foe. I do hope they divide the Greek factions though.
I have read a novel recently about the death of Phillip ( Alexander's father ). It was a really creative take on assasination of Phillip. And in the novel all of the Generals you have mentioned have came up. The writer was really trying to stick to the story, apparently. It turned out that the Jewish slave ( a really good friend to Phillip and Alexander, he was also scribe ) killed Phillip to help Alexander.

Except Sleucus and Antigonus all of them were mentioned.
I know there was another general that got killed, because he was charged with the conspiracy of murder. I forgot his name, but he was waiting for the Phillip at Helespont to invade Persia.

[Rosacrux]

That book of yours takes a quite liberal stance towards history, I guess. Whatever, it's fiction, isn't it?

As for the Greeks... they definitely should be more than one faction. Athens and Sparta were not significant at the time, so they could be not portrayed as factions.

In mainland Greece three were the strongest and most promising powers in the respective timeframe (provided they'll start with the first punic war):

- kingdom of Macedonia
- Aetolian league
- Achaen league

At least those three should be in. One could examine two more possibilities:

- Thessalon Koino
- Kingdom of Hepirus

And most certainly the greatest city states of southern Italy, was Syracusae, a Greek colony that fell to the Romans after the second punic war.

Greek were also the hellenistic kingdoms build by the successors of Alexander the Great.

- Seleukid
- Pergamon
- Ptolemaic
- Graeco-Indian (Baktria)

[Longshanks]

They should be divided but probably won't. I imagine they'll all be lumped into Macedonia. My reason for suspecting this is that the Gauls are going to be treated as one faction, and they were more fragmented than the Greeks.

Some of the Gallic factions didn't even speak the same language as other factions.(Belgae tribes had different languages than the Long-haired Gauls)

[rasoforos]

if they decide that the game should have only one faction as the greeks then this faction would cover a huge area of the map at the time. i believe there would be different factions. If however it is decided that only one faction will stand in the game then they could make the game have an option where the player starts in a small 'greece only map' and his goal is to unify all the greeks untill a certain time limit where the 'main map' game starts. This coul apply to the celts as well i suppose and it would add diversity and create some interesting ' changes in history' . of course it should be optional.

[Sainika]

Quote[/b] (JANOSIK007 @ Feb. 25 2003,03:27)]Who consisted the Achean and Aetolian league?
And weren't the successor kindoms the kindoms that followed Persian Empire ( Sleucid, and Pathian )?
AFAIK Achean league was lead by Athens and included central greek provinces. Achean league fought in Peloponessian war against the league lead by Sparta (don't remember it's name).
And Aetolia is the north and north-west Greece.

[Rosacrux]

Two brief descriptions of the two leagues

Aetolian

confederation centering in the cities of Aetolia. It was formed in the 4th cent. B.C. and began to gain power in the 3d cent. in opposing the Achaean League and the Macedonians. At its height, the league stretched across Greece from sea to sea, including Locris, Malis, Dolopes, part of Thessaly, Phocis, and Acarnania. Its federal structure consisted of a popular assembly of all citizens, a federal council in which representation was based on the size of a community’s military contingent in the Legion’s army, and an inner council


Achaean

The best-known of the Greek confederacies was the Achaean League. It had existed earlier, to be revived in 280 by the cities of Dyme, Patrae, Tritaea, and Pherae; it was joined by Aegium, Bura, and Cerynea. The Achaean League therefore included many of the city states in the north of thePeloponnese (but not Sparta, Elis and Messenia).

[Heraclius]

Done a little research while I was away. Am I right in saying that the game starts in 264 BC? Because If I am I've come up with a list of the Greek factions that I hope will be included.

#1- The Kingdom of Macedon, relatively strong power covering Northern Greece, Western Thrace and the Attican plain and Athens.

#2- A huge Seleucid Empire, stretching from Eastern Thrace through Western and Southern Asia Minor down through Syria and Mesopatammia and all the way east to the border with India, if the map goes that far (which I doubt)

#3- The Ptolemaic Kingdom, very strong, extending From Cyrenacia to Egypt and Nubia, Palestine, most of the Greek islands and the very southern shore of Asia minor.

#4 the Greek city states in Sicily, most notably Syracuse.

Those are the 4 biggies that i can think of. Other smaller factions might inlude the minor Greek Kingdoms in Northern Asia Minor and Armenia. Thebes and the Central Greek Confederation (forget its real name) might be another option. As well as the northern Thracians, Epirus (it was their King Pyrrhus, remember, whou would have toppled Rome expect for his costly victories) and even a small Gaulish (Celtic) kingdom in Central Asia minor.
You may cry out in disbelief as I did when I read this but apparently a tribe of Gauls that lived north of the Danube invaded Greece in 279 BC before crossing over to Asia minor (hence the region Galatia in modern Turkey) and running a proifitable raiding business for fifty years before being eliminated. Anyway just my thoughts.

Oops forgot the Achaen league in northern Peloponese. It had a nice run too.

[Heraclius]

More thoughts that occured to me. More Greek faction ideas: In 262 BC the city of Pergamon on the Western coast of Asia Minor revolted and took much of Western Asia Minor permanently away from the Seleucide Empire. CA could have a "faction emergence" type message for them, like the Swiss or Burgundians or they could change history a tiny bit and start Pergamon out with their empire two years early.
Also an emergence of Pontus, whose King Mithridates caused much trouble for the Romans would be a good idea. Another possible minor faction might be Corinth, which was the leading Greek city-state by the first century BC. Still I think I'm getting carried away and going into too mcuh detail. I'll be perfectly happy with the successor states of the Seleucid Empire, Ptolemaic kingdom, Macedonia plus Syracuse and some sort of coalition or league of the remaining Greek city states. But I do hope CA sticks to true history alot, but to be honest I'll by the game even if there's a powerful alien faction somewhere.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]AFAIK Achean league was lead by Athens and included central greek provinces. Achean league fought in Peloponessian war against the league lead by Sparta (don't remember it's name).
And Aetolia is the north and north-west Greece.

Athens was not a member of the Achaean League during the time period represented in RTW (264BC - 14AD). However the League eventually grew to include sizeable city states like Corinth and Megara. Militarily speaking I believe the Achaean League was more powerful than the Aetolian League.


Quote[/b] ]More thoughts that occured to me. More Greek faction ideas: In 262 BC the city of Pergamon on the Western coast of Asia Minor revolted and took much of Western Asia Minor permanently away from the Seleucide Empire. CA could have a "faction emergence" type message for them, like the Swiss or Burgundians or they could change history a tiny bit and start Pergamon out with their empire two years early.
Also an emergence of Pontus, whose King Mithridates caused much trouble for the Romans would be a good idea. Another possible minor faction might be Corinth, which was the leading Greek city-state by the first century BC. Still I think I'm getting carried away and going into too mcuh detail. I'll be perfectly happy with the successor states of the Seleucid Empire, Ptolemaic kingdom, Macedonia plus Syracuse and some sort of coalition or league of the remaining Greek city states. But I do hope CA sticks to true history alot, but to be honest I'll by the game even if there's a powerful alien faction somewhere.

Either way the Pergamenes have to be included in RTW. Speaking of timeframes I don't know why CA chose to begin RTW at the onset of the First Punic war (264BC). You would think CA would give us a little more time before hand.

Powerful alien faction? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif You mean like the colony of Grays that built a super-secret mind control base in the Swiss Alps in 1056 BC? Some say the rumors of interspecies breeding with the Hapsburgs of Austria are true and that... oops, did I say too much?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Heraclius]

One of us in the know, eh, Spino? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[ShadesWolf]

I agree with Rosacrux on this matter, we will be taking about the successor kingdoms.......

Upon Alexander's death, no single successor emerged to claim his kingdom. Rather, the widespread territories were divided among several rulers.

Egypt leader was the most skilled of these: Ptolemy, was Macedonian by birth, he ruled from 323 BC to 304 BC. The kingdom was expanded to include Cyrene (Lybia), Palestine, Cyprus, and others lands.

His royal titles included King Soter (Savior), and Pharaoh.

Under his reign the golden age of Alexandria began and the capital of Egypt was moved to here.

These Empires were Greek by nature and roughly ran on the Greek city State ideal.... I feel these will play a major part in the game, as Rome tactics meet Greek army tactics, and a few good enjoyable battle may result.

[Rosacrux]

One could argue about who was the most succesful dynasty of the succesors - in military might the Seleukids proved always to be on top, but eventually the were caught between a hammer and a hard place (namely Rome and Parthia) and they were squashed.

But Ptolemeans were surely the better politicians, by far. Less war-inclined, too. And they succeded much with less resources than the Seleukids.

All succesor kingdoms had huge armies and they can make for an interesting match up against the Roman Legions in the game.

Also, another quite interesting "player" in the respective timeframe would be Pontus, a kingdom which under Mithridates came to seriously challenge the might of Rome, but eventually fell under it.

Oh, this is an extremely promising game.

[ShadesWolf]

So far we can say we know about three major playing styles....


Rome
Greek (Dif kingdoms but similar units - my guess)
Carthage

[Rosacrux]

...plus them hairy barbarians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 26 2003,08:43)]...plus them hairy barbarians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
you refering to the Celts or Germanic tribes? Actually when did the first Germanic tribes appear in central and western Europe and attack Rome? I think they'll at least make an apearance, like the Golden Horde, if not start out with a couple of kingdoms, right? Didn't Augustus lose three legions to the Germans? You know, "Quintius Varus give me my legions back" isn't that what he was suposed to have shouted when he heard the news, or am I making stuff up?

[King James I]

I believe the first Germanic tribes to threaten Rome were the Teutons and the Cimbri defeated at least two consular Roman armies until deviating along a Roman road that led in Gaul where they spent years plundering it, which gave Gaius Marius time to sufficiently train his men to oppose them. After plundering Gaul the Teutons and Cimbri decided to go after Rome. Unfortunately for them Marius had finished training his men in time for him to block them and in two battles defeated them and basically annialated them.

During the time of Caesar's conquest of Gaul the Suebic king stirred up the Balgae, who were a people of Germanic-Celt extration, into rebellion and then crossed over the Danube into Gaul to try and conquer as much territory as he could. After finishing with the Balgae, Caesar met the Suebi king in battle and defeated him. After that defeat the Suebi king never crossed over the Danube again. Caesar then led a small expedition over the Danube so that he could put fear into them so they would have no ideas about sending any more raids over the Danube.

I guess everyone has heard of Arminius and Teutenbourg Forest so I won't get into that.

[Sir Black Raven]

the greeks were the first democracy know. they were divided in states but they were linked as a matter of speach. So i hink they should be divided in factions but then united in a common affair like war against others.

[Rosacrux]

SBR

Historically, the ancient Greeks managed to get together only twice and for a short period:

- Once when they faced the mighty army of the Great King and they had to defend their way of life

- The second time under the leadership of Alexander and the hegemony of his kingdom

Note that: In the Persian wars, many Greek city states (all the Thessalian, Thebes) and kingdoms (Macedonia) sided with the Persian. And that what kept the city states intact while Alexander ventured to Asia was just the military might of his kingdom and the terrible fate of Thebes, not some patriotism.

On the contrary, in the time of the Roman conquest of Greece (a quite long process, running for half a century) the Romans took the Greeks down one by one, by using one against the other. Initially all were happy to gain power against their "inside" enemies, but in the end - when they realized finally what was going on - it was too late to do anything.

Funny people those Greeks, huh? They still are. I know, I am one of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif


Heraclius

Sure I was talking about the northern barbarians wich includes Celts and Germans among the others. But I missed the point you were trying to make.

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 27 2003,09:21)]Historically, the ancient Greeks managed to get together only twice and for a short period:

Funny people those Greeks, huh? They still are. I know, I am one of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif


Sure I was talking about the northern barbarians wich includes Celts and Germans among the others. But I missed the point you were trying to make.
A fellow Greek in our midst? Wow And i thought ktonos was the only one. By the way whatever happened to him? You're right about the Greeks not being able to work together. Its still tough trying to unite us. Just look at the Greek national soccer team. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif AEKARA Goddam Malagahttp://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif just saw latest results from UEFA cup. We should not have lost that match. I expect only you Greeks out there will understand those last few sentences.
What I was asking, Rosacrux, is if the map will start out with Gothic kingdoms in place in Central Europe or if they will invade from "off" the map like the Golden Horde. I was also trying to establish what year they swept down from their homelands into modern day Germany, France, Eastern Europe etc,etc.

[Rosacrux]

Geia sou patrida http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Besides Ktonos (who seems to have vanquished... I miss his polls http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif ) there is another one of us here on boards: Rasoforos. Usually you'll find him in the tavern, trying to enlighten the barbarians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, we are talking about the third century BC as a starting point (and 14 AD as the finishing line) so forget about Goths, at the time they were not present, nor did they appeared in the western European area until the fourth century AD (actually, they came when the Huns drove them westwards, igniting the long and painfull process that was later described as "the great migration").

The Germanic tribes of the time were those identified by the Romans (Suebi, Marcomanni, Alemanni etc. etc. - dozens of them) and those are the ones that gave Arminius the sack in Teutoburger forest.

In the respective timeframe, I don't think we can expect some Mongols-like invasion, even though I am pretty sure they would be willing to portray something to ...fake it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

P.S. Malaga ole - Thrylos rules http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Heraclius]

Sorry, I'm very absent minded. where I said Goths instead read the assorted Germanic tribes that you mentioned. I'm confused about how far into Central and Eastern Europe the map will go.
PS so which soccer team do you favor, Rosacrux? Be warned that if it is Oylmpiakos I will not be allowed to respond to any more of your posts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yia sou fila mou (need to get one of them greek keyboard things)

[Rosacrux]

As I said... Thrylos ole http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Heraclius]

these old eyes, eh, Rosacrux http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I just get blinder and blinder. Really was a shame about AEK losing though. Ah, well at least Panathinaikos continue on and Olympiakos has basically been eliminated from the Greek Cup (3-1 loss to PAOK) so everything is not so bad.

[Rosacrux]

Oh, the only thing that matters is the Greek championship... but I think we've droven this thread too far away from it's initial aim... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[rasoforos]

Hey heraclius and welcome to our forum

wow is this a greek football topic or soemthing ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

i agree that football today is a lot like ancient greek politics. A big Aris fan here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Heraclius]

as soon as they let me join the exalted ranks of you junior members I can post in the tavern about greek soccer without feeling like some sort of rule-breaker, subverting a Colosseum topic for my own football loving mind. (hehe) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Basileus]

Bah theres only one Greek team thats worth mentioning in here and thats Paok http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif hehe Rosacrux 3-1 baby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Heraclius]

PAOK are a bunch of Salonikan thugs, Basileus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but at least they beat Olympiakos. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif AEKARA

[Rosacrux]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hey, we own the whole countre, so who cares about a result or two http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[rasoforos]

paok-aigaleo 1-1 :PP

[Basileus]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Mar. 02 2003,10:02)]paok-aigaleo 1-1 :PP
yeah yeah rub it in my face now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

walks back to his dark corner again..

[Heraclius]

Go PAOK. Now that they drew with Akratitos, HA, and AEK beat those Cretan peasants OFI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif we are in third place. FIRST PLACE HERE WE COME Sorry, football brings out the worst in me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Rosacrux]

Heraclius, mind your manners with regards to the Cretans - I am one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Of course, about OFI you can say whatever you wish, they are tsatsoi anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Catiline]

Nice to see you Greeks are still squabbling after 2500 years. This was one topic title which made me smile.

[rasoforos]

Catiline Greek football today is the best way for someone to see the politics of ancient Greece. We fight all the time between us , sometimes support the non-greek team in a rival's european match but when our national team joins forces we are crazy about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . The only problem is that 2500 years ago our 'national team' was winning most of the times , nowadays well...err...they are not doing that great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Catiline]

Seeing as how you were beaten by David Beckham all on his own when the rest of the England team seemed to forget to turn up I'm inclined to agree with that statement http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Catiline]

ACtually, was that a draw? I know we spent the last 5 minutes being awarded free kicks just were Becks likes them until he got one.

[Basileus]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Mar. 03 2003,05:12)]ACtually, was that a draw? I know we spent the last 5 minutes being awarded free kicks just were Becks likes them until he got one.
yep if i remember right the game ended 2-2, the greek team played quite good on that occasion though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Catiline]

You're right, they did.

[rasoforos]

its been a long time since i stoped watching the Greek national football team , they are just hopeless. I personally prefer basketball and there the Greek national team is ,to say the least, decent. The problem is that living in the UK means that basketball is that obscure alien sport played with a strange coloured oversised ball in strange and exotic parts of the world http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif They will not even show the world championship here , although there is some NBA now and then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Catiline]

Is basketball big in Greece. There are some Greek lads on my course here, you can't get them to come out on a Friday night, it's basketball time.

[Heraclius]

Oh yes basketball is becoming quite a popular sport in Greece although I don't really follow it. Despite being relatively short we Greeks have gotten quite good and I understand that Panathinaikos have recently won a few big European tournaments. The national team isn't half-bad either.

[rasoforos]

Catiline basketball became big in Greece during the 80's , especially due to the European Championship won by the Greek National Team in 1987 for the first time. It is still very popular , probably the most popular sport in the Country because the national team is really good and to the team level there is one or two Team European Cups won every year. Basketball is espcially popular to people who were born in the late 70's and during the 80's , we practically grew up watching that stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[Heraclius]

still, for me, soccer will always remain supreme. I guess I'll always view basketball with a kind of suspicion as being a "foreign" sport. Ah well, suspicion of foreigners is an age-old Greek value my yia-yia (grandmother for all you Anglo-Saxons out there) taught me since I was in the crib. I apologize for my little Cretan snide, rasoforos, it really is a wonderful and beautiful island although parts of it have become tourist traps. And the women ahhhhhh. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Still you must admit OFI plays middling football, at best.
I, being naive, still have hope for the national team in Euro 2004. AFter all who else can you see going through to the next round from our group besides Spain? Ukraine? Northern Ireland? Armenia? NO It will be Greece this year. And if its not? Ah well, the team has disappointed me before. There's always next year http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif