Units you would like to see in the game!

[Leet Eriksson]

I made this thread to see what units you would like to see in the game,and hopefully some CA members will see and consider it.provide a small description besides the units name if you want,would be alot better.

here is my list:

Roman:

Hastatus Infantry(equivelant to the men-at-arms)
Preatorians(the elite roman swordsmen)
Roman scout(i remember something about the greeks calling them Kataskopos,generally roman scouts that are in greece to prepare their army for the invasion,should be light cavalry)
Syrian Archers(haha i bet your bored with this one)
Auxilary Legionnare(much like militia units,bad quipment and armed with a short spear,can still kick the crap out of most egyptian units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)

Egypt:

Camelry(ahhh they are back&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Slingers(crappy early tier archers,even crappier than peasants,really good against slow units)
Egyptian spearmen(saracen infantry,low morale and a bit crappier)
Egyptian axemen(meant for anti-spear only)
Abyssinian Guard(if you did'nt know,they were guarding pharoahs before sultans)

Carthage:

Numidian mercenary(merc unit eclusively for carthage,ripped it off from Civ III)
Camelry(if you did'nt know,they had tunisian came riders that kicked the crap outta horse riders,but only good in defending desert territories)
Elephant Archer(boxes on elephants with archers in them)
Elephant(elephants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)

Persia:

Persian Cavalry(spanish jinettes)
persian skirimishers(murabitin infantry)
Persian light cavalry(cavalry archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)
Parthian Heavy Cavalry(Khwarizmian Heavy cavalry wannabe)

can't think of anything else,but if they added the palmyrans i really would like to see Palmyran cavalry(scantily clad women armed with light spears on top of horses,and no i'm not kidding).

[Spino]

OK, I'm game for this thread...

I'm sure CA is doing their homework on this one but I'd like to stress the importance of region specific units. I'll try to avoid stating the ridiculously obvious (i.e. Macedonian Phalanx).

Rome:

Auxilia Legion- Absolutely. A very important aspect of the Roman military. The Auxilia's lack of citizenship, especially in the pre-Imerial era, often left their achievements overlooked by history.

Carthage:

Sacred Elite- Faction specific. This is the only unit unique to Carthage that I can recall. Carthage's armies were comprised almost entirely of mercenaries and the game should reflect this.
Balearic Slingers- Region specific.
Iberian infantry- Region specific. A huge asset to Carthage's armies during the Punic wars. Units of falcata wielding Spaniards provided a decent counter to the Manipular legions of Rome.
Celt-Iberian Infantry- Region specific and mercenary. Found fighting on both sides during the Punic wars.

Seleucid Empire:

Syrian Archers - Good call Faisal but I think they should be region specific, like the Gallowglass were to Ireland in MTW. At the beginning of the grand campaign in RTW Syria should belong to the Seleucids.

Macedonia:

Companion Cavalry- Faction specific. Cream of the Macedonian cavalry crop.
Thessalian Cavalry - Region specific. Among the best in the western world at the time, superior even to Companion cavalry.
Prodromoi- Macedonian only OR Region specific to Thrace-
Macedonian controlled regions of Thrace produced this light cavalry that was used primarily for reconnaisance.

Greece (Aetolian & Achaean Leagues, Athens, Sparta):

Gymnet - Light Infantry
Peltast - Light missile troops - typically wielded either slings or javelins
Cretan Archers - Region specific

Gaul:

Gaesatae Warrior- Faction specific. Bare naked, woad painted psychopathic swordsman

[Leet Eriksson]

Great list spino,thanks for providing the info.also i forgot about the greeks,i would like to to see the following:

Hypaspist-greek infantry,basically men-at-arms
Toxcotes-greek archers,although they did'nt use alot of archers they still had a few of them in each army,pretty inferior to most archer types(greeks where not famous in archery)
Prodromos-light cavalry,armed with ligh lances.much like hobilars.
Hippikon-greek heavy cavalry,of course until the heratoi appeaered.

about the peltast-they should be unique to the greeks,and region specific(serbia).i heard they made armies comrpomised of hoplites obsolete.

[Stormer]

im not very good with units of time periods but can we please have every units avilible at there time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

let me as one thing dont let units look the same like foot knights and men at arms on mtw ARE BOTH THE SAME its so annoying dont let this ruin units.

[Vlad The Impaler]

many of the units are already writen here but :

Dacia/Thracia

Ktisai warrior-some kinda dacian/thracian warrior monk/ellite - horses or foot.
Roxolan cathapachtre -germanic cavalry from the tribes allied with Dacia kingdom/north of Black Sea , Dnister river.
Dacian Cavalry- very fast, bows and short swords.almost similar with scythian cavalry only a little bit slower.
Dacian light infantry-fast , round shields, short swords and bows.

[Vlad The Impaler]

btw faisal , the egyptians didnt use some sort of sudanese elite unit? i remembers smthin like this but i cand find where i read about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Quote[/b] (Vlad The Impaler @ Feb. 10 2003,15:12)]many of the units are already writen here but :

Dacia/Thracia

Ktisai warrior-some kinda dacian/thracian warrior monk/ellite - horses or foot.
Roxolan cathapachtre -germanic cavalry from the tribes allied with Dacia kingdom/north of Black Sea , Dnister river.
Dacian Cavalry- very fast, bows and short swords.almost similar with scythian cavalry only a little bit slower.
Dacian light infantry-fast , round shields, short swords and bows.
I dont mind anything Dacian, just so long as they have those howling wolf standards that they used.

They were soooooo cool.

Wolf skin tied to the top of a pole. When the wind went through it, it would howl.

(Perhaps, a Grey Wolves special faction??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif )

[Longshanks]

I'd like to see the Germanic cavalry Julius Caesar described in The Gallic Wars.

They were a sort of light cavalry, two men rode on the horse and right before they engaged an enemy, one man hopped off and fought as a light infantry skirmisher. Does anyone remember the name?

[Vlad The Impaler]

yes Toda indeed that flag is cool;i saw a couple to The History Museum of Romania in Bucharest.truly scary but i cant hear the real sound just an tape there at the museum recorded by specialists; is not a howl is more like an scream ;if u remember the movie "screamers" ( a SF movie ).

but not only the flag was strange .they have a lot of things cosidered unusual in that times;for example they belived that they are immortals and if they die in battle they'll live in heavens .well i'm a little out of topic but i think i'll start a topic about dacians.

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (Vlad The Impaler @ Feb. 10 2003,15:14)]btw faisal , the egyptians didnt use some sort of sudanese elite unit? i remembers smthin like this but i cand find where i read about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
these were nubian mercenaries,carrying large wooden shields and various weaponry(primamrily spears and medjays,or sickle swords).the egyptians also used medianite arab camel archers and nubian archers,wich were mercenaries too.we could say these were elites,seeing as how effective they were in several egyptian key battles,particularily Kadesh and Meggido but without chariot archers they could have been annihilated.so unless they are supported by other units they could be very effective.

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (Longshanks @ Feb. 11 2003,03:56)]I'd like to see the Germanic cavalry Julius Caesar described in The Gallic Wars.

They were a sort of light cavalry, two men rode on the horse and right before they engaged an enemy, one man hopped off and fought as a light infantry skirmisher. Does anyone remember the name?
Tuetonic raiders iirc,very feirce warriors.they also used cavalry archers who surpassed most archers in europe.

[Nelson]

The Egyptian army of Caesar's day was not the bronze age army of Ramses who fought at Kadesh a thousand years earlier. It was post Alexander and the army was Greek just as rulers like Cleopatra in Alexandria were.

Slingers should be decent weapons. I would expect them not to suffer from rain like archery does. Roman sling shot have been recovered with rude messages for the enemy written on them.

[Sainika]

Roman - legion auxilia cavalry (alae) and infantry (alarii), praetorians (like guard of general or imperator)
Greek - cretan archers, phalanx, fessalian cavalry, macedonian phalanx, peltasts,heliopolis (siege), spartan hoplites etc.
Egyptian - axemen, camels, numidian cavalry and spearmen, abyssinian guard, slingers
Carthage - the same as egyptian and also elephants
Persia - famous persian cavalry including cataphracts, elephants,horse archers, "thousand" (elite heavy infantry), assyrian cavalry

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (Nelson @ Feb. 11 2003,21:16)]The Egyptian army of Caesar's day was not the bronze age army of Ramses who fought at Kadesh a thousand years earlier. It was post Alexander and the army was Greek just as rulers like Cleopatra in Alexandria were.

Slingers should be decent weapons. I would expect them not to suffer from rain like archery does. Roman sling shot have been recovered with rude messages for the enemy written on them.
Nope,it was not greek.cleoptara(although she was purely greek)had an egyptian army,when she revolted against the ptolmey rulers and decalred that she was the duaghter of Isis,rome immediatly sided with her and backed up her claim.that ended the ptolmey dynasty and made the new independent egyptian state.

[Rosacrux]

Faisal

Both Cleopatra and Ptolemy (her little brother, btw) had standard Graeco-Egyptian armies. You can call them "hybrid", allthough the structure was Greek, the official language was Greek and all high rank officers were also Greek. They made extensive use of the natives, but only in "lesser" positions and - of course - as the bulk of the armed forces.

Did you know that Cleo was the first (repeat: the first) of the Ptolemy leaders whick took the time to actually learn the local language? They ruled over Egypt for three centuries and none of them ever took the time to learn Egyptian


Sainika

It's thessalian cavalry (from the vincinity of Thessaly) and hellepolis.

[Sainika]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 12 2003,15:31)]It's thessalian cavalry (from the vincinity of Thessaly) and hellepolis.
Yes that's right. My mistake, though the sense is not lost as you understood what I mean:)

[Rosacrux]

Oh, I was just nitpicking, np.

BTW, there are other interesting units the Greek could use:

Rhodian (from the island of Rhodes) slingers, the best in their time.

Agriannes javelinmen (semi-barbaric allies of Alexander, the best skirimishers in his army).

Thireoforos, the evolution of the hoplite or a rip-off of the legionaries, armoured, carrying an oval shield (thireos, hence the name), javelins and sword.

Seleukid kataphracts. The first fully-armoured riders of the western world (horse and rider both armoured).

Ekdromos hoplites. The "light" version of the hoplite, or a hoplite with all the relevant gear minus the armour.

The Cretan archers you mentioned are a must, as are the Thracian peltasts and the Thessalian cavalry. Standard hoplites, macedonian phalanx, maybe some enhanced hoplite (Spartan or Thebean) heteroi and prodromoi cavalry and in the sea Biremes, Triremes, Pentikontoroi and seige-ships (as used by Demetrios the poliorkites) are also a must.

And there are dozens more... I am curious to see what CA will incorporate into the game.

[Sainika]

Oh I forgot about parthian cavalry. They were alike very advanced horse archers and also cataphracts. AFAIK cataphracts appeared first in Parthia (I cent. BC) and spread over Minor Asia and Byzantine lately.
Also one can remember about armenian cavalry, hippocontistae (like spanish jinetes), dimachos (special type of cavalry men, which fight on foot), funditores (roman missile infantry), caetrarii (iberian light infantry, used by Carphage and later Romans), and a number of various siege machines (onager, scorpio, ballistae).

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 12 2003,06:31)]Faisal

Both Cleopatra and Ptolemy (her little brother, btw) had standard Graeco-Egyptian armies. You can call them "hybrid", allthough the structure was Greek, the official language was Greek and all high rank officers were also Greek. They made extensive use of the natives, but only in "lesser" positions and - of course - as the bulk of the armed forces.

Did you know that Cleo was the first (repeat: the first) of the Ptolemy leaders whick took the time to actually learn the local language? They ruled over Egypt for three centuries and none of them ever took the time to learn Egyptian


Sainika

It's thessalian cavalry (from the vincinity of Thessaly) and hellepolis.
I agree with you,but Nelson was implying that they had a fully greek army.Also to your knowledge cleopatra was raised as an egyptian,learned the egyptian language and was called a pharoah.and to follow egyptian tradition she married her brother

[Rosacrux]

Err... faisal, you got some things wrong. Common misconseptions, of course.

All Ptolemaic leaders were called pharaohs - that fine tradition goes back to Alexander himself, he was the first Greek crowned "Pharaoh".

And the Ptolemeans allways married into their family - it was a way to keep the bloodline and avoide "lesser" mixtures and (on a more practical note) to avoid dynastic conflicts. Prolly they could've adopted that from the Egyptians, even though endogamy was a common practice in the Royal court of Macedonia as well.

Other than that, most certainly Cleo wasn't raised as an "Egyptian", she got a fine, typical Greek education as all members of the Ptolemaic dynasty had. But she was clever enough to understand that she couldn't rule a nation without even knowing the tongue her subjects spoke. Funny thing, the ptolemeans ruled the place for three centuries without giving a rat's arse about even learning the language, and the first Greek leader to do so, loses Egypt to the Romans... go figure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

A thing about the hellenistic leaders is that they never got incorporated into their environment, they allways tried to keep themselves Greek. Maybe that would partly explain the relatively quick demise of their kingdoms...

[Leet Eriksson]

OKnow i'm confused http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif lets just say,egypt will use egyptian units and get on with it(with some Greek units) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

btw what about seige weapons?
i would like to see:

Ballistae(mostly used by barbarians)
Catapults
Helepolis(massive seige tower unique to the greek)also known as "City Taker"
Engineers
Ladder Carriers

i bet there are more but i can't remember.

EDIT:one of the screenies showed roman soldiers assualting a barbarian fort by using ladders.so i think there will be ladder carriers...

[Shahed]

ummmmm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Amazones ?

[Nobunaga0611]

I don't know about this as much as others, but I would like to see more skirmisher units. I know the Romans used to throw those very skinny and light spears (whatever they're called) then charge the enemy. The spears were so thin they could pierce a shield and hit the person behind it. Then, because it was so flimsy, when they tried to pull it out it would splinter, leaving a portion in the person or their shield. I would love to see some units like this, and with the added graphics, what an attack by them would look like.

[Longshanks]

Aeduan Horse...Some of the Gallic cavalry was very good, especially that of the Aedui. Many were also used along with the Germans as auxiliary cavalry by the Romans, especially Julius Caesar in his conquest of Gaul.(the Aedui had long history of being Roman allies, and sided with Rome for most of Caesar's campaigns in Gaul....they later joined with Vercingetorix when he led all of Gaul in a failed revolt against Caesar.)

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Nobunaga0611 @ Feb. 15 2003,03:33)]I don't know about this as much as others, but I would like to see more skirmisher units. I know the Romans used to throw those very skinny and light spears (whatever they're called) then charge the enemy. The spears were so thin they could pierce a shield and hit the person behind it. Then, because it was so flimsy, when they tried to pull it out it would splinter, leaving a portion in the person or their shield. I would love to see some units like this, and with the added graphics, what an attack by them would look like.
That was the pilum, and it was made of iron which would bend after sticking in a shield. This rendered the shield useless, so the poor fellow had to fight a the legionnaire basically naked (especially if he was a Celt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif).

In my opinion, slingers should be as good as bowmen at short range. A sling is not a weapon to laugh at.

The main rare unit I would like to see would be a nice unit of Parthian cavalry archers... who can fire on the move http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[JANOSIK007]

Persians had this unit called "immortals", who were like the best heavy cavalry of it's time. They also sound cool.

Otherwise Persian armies were filled with slaves.
All it took was 10000 Greeks to wipe out Persian army of 250000. I've just read about Xenophenon.

[Oberiko]

I'd like to see Scythian archers with poisoned arrows. They would do the normal casualties on impact, but enemies who are simply injured would start to lose stamina until they eventually just collapse on the battlefield. After the battle is over a random percent of infected units would die.

[powdermonkey]

How about celtic chariots with blades on the wheels?
Boudicca hacking down legionnaires by the rank
Gimme, gimme http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[sbreden]

JANOSIK007 you must have just read "The Ten Thousand". I'm right in the middle of it. Fantastic so far. All this talk is getting me pyched to re-read "Gates of Fire".

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Are you sure about that?

Having watched the film "300 Spartans" many times, I was led to believe by my own eyes that the Immortals were infact crack infantry. Naturally they were well trained, but nothing compared to the Spartans in a frontal fight.


I'm pretty sure they were infantry, but I am happy to be overturned by a good piece of proof.

As before, I want to see the general faction of the Huns and their amazing cavalry, and then also the Dacians and their infantry with their standards.

[Rosacrux]

The ancient (BC) Persian empire's "immortals" were actually elite infantry. 10.000 men of them. They usually only went off to campaign with the emperor IIRC.

I don't know though if later Persia had cavalry immortals... maybe that's the case.

[Nelson]

Romans should get a decent hoplite spear armed unit to represent the third line triarii. I don't see how the game could compel a player to organize and employ a proper manipular legion but I would like to try. My fear is that we will only get the familiar principes/hastati/Marian unit armed with gladius and pila.

[King James I]

Quote[/b] (Nelson @ Feb. 25 2003,15:22)]Romans should get a decent hoplite spear armed unit to represent the third line triarii. I don't see how the game could compel a player to organize and employ a proper manipular legion but I would like to try. My fear is that we will only get the familiar principes/hastati/Marian unit armed with gladius and pila.
I hope that they have atleast three options for Roman manipular armies, hastati front, principes front, and trinarii front.
Because I think a major strategy for Roman armies was to rotate the different classes of units backwards when the front unit got exausted. For example if the Hastati got tired the principes got rotated up front and finally the trinarii got rotated up front. And then it would start all over again until the enemy was defeated.

I'm not sure how the cohort army was organised though.

[Elwe]

Slingers. They were a highly utilised missile force used as skirmishers by many different nations. The Romans even utilised them all the way up to the High Middle Ages

Cheers.

[Rosacrux]

The devs stated that the whole line from Triarii-Prencipe-Hastati to Mariu's mules shall be represented.

I do fear though that a precise recreation of the maniple system will not be feasible, except for a formation. Maybe we'll get the option to allign our troops in a maniple formation, but I seriously doubt they could have all three kinds of units under a single unit.

I don't know... any more recent info about it? Devs?

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Polish Husaria: Heavily-armoured Knights. Great for spear heading attacks. Wings made from feathers on the back of the rider make a whistling noise that scares other horses. A must for any Polish army (since Poland is such a hard team to play)

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (PoLsKa_HuSaRiA @ Feb. 27 2003,04:04)]Polish Husaria: Heavily-armoured Knights. Great for spear heading attacks. Wings made from feathers on the back of the rider make a whistling noise that scares other horses. A must for any Polish army (since Poland is such a hard team to play)
Not really relevant for Rome tho http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Many of the ideas represented here are anachronistic for the period - the Persian empire no longer existed and the Immortals weer long gone.

Prodromi were a short-lived troop type if they ever actualy existed - they were incorporated into the Companions in Alexander's time and never heard of again.

There is no actual account of the Roman army ever using a rank-replacement system in battle.

The role of the Triarii was to form a rear guard in case of defeat, not to prolong an attack - if the Hastati and Princepes couldn't break the enemy then the theory was to get the heck out of there in good order http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Roman armies always formed up in the same order - Velites, Hastati, Princepes, Triarii (until the 3 types were amalgamated possibly by Marius), even when commanded by very good and somewhat unorthodox generals such as Scipio. There should not be any option to do otherwise.

[Leet Eriksson]

Do romans have heavy cavalry?the only thing i know is they used scouts,who were lightly armed and armoured.and as the name suggests they were used for scouting.

[King James I]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ Mar. 07 2003,08:41)]Do romans have heavy cavalry?the only thing i know is they used scouts,who were lightly armed and armoured.and as the name suggests they were used for scouting.
They did have a heavy horse unit called the Clibinarii which basically was a copy of the Parthian Catapharch. Other than that I think they mostly used auxillaries for their cavalry.

[Hakonarson]

Roman cavalry was mainly provided by non-Romans, but there was a class of mounted romans - known as Equites they probably only amount to a few units in this time frame.

In the Empire they were greatly expanded in numbers.

Earlier on some of the other Italian cities provided it - especially Campania, and Gallic and Spanish cavalry were also much used.

All of these were essentially the same - armed with javelins and protected by a shield and often some sort of body armour.

Lighter cavalry were supplied by the Numidians, Spanish and some Greek states - lacking body armour they usuall;y still had the shield and javelins.