Turk units....

[ErikJansen]

I've been playing MTW online for quite a few months now, and consider myself an average player by now. During my time playing MTW online I've chosen the Turks 95% of the time, and looked at building the most effective army for that faction.

Since the experts who play MTW online also post here, I thought I'd toss the question out at you all and see if your version of a Turk army would be much different from the one I prefer to use. I'm especially interested in what valor/weapon/armour upgrades you would give the different unit types. I typically play MP in around 15k florin games.

Heavy Janissary Infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
I do leave these mostly alone, though I spend florins on a valor 1 upgrade. However I noticed lately, after joining a high florin game, that their life expectancy will be greatly increased with armour upgrades. Should I spend the florins on armour upgrades instead? I've not yet made my mind up concerning this.

Janissary Infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Cheap to upgrade and with 2 valor increases they really come into play as the no.1 versatile inf unit around. I've spent some cash on weapons upgrades as well, to make them more effective vs other skirmishers, and that seems to work pretty well. They die easily in hth though, even with armour upgrades. Hole pluggers

Saracen Infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
What a headache these guys are, unreliable at best. They have numbers though, and I have no choice but to upgrade their weak spines with valor. Even with weapons upgrades these fellas just can't seem to get the killing done effectively. Ah well, at least they prod the horsies with their spears.

Ghazi Infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Mad axe-murderers from ... uh.. the desert regions, hehe. These guys wreak mayhem with their huge impact, and instead of valor upgrades I buy armor. Without armor the madmen die too quickly for my liking.

Muwahid Infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
I can't really seem to make my mind up about these guys, and their irresistible charge sure aint that irresistible. I spend florins on weapons and valor.

Turcoman Cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Sometimes they really shine, other times they really suck. It aint all up to whomever controls them either, and the micromanaging needed to use effectively can cause tons of brain-pain. Function well when on steroids, lol, or with a double armor upgrade. Nice horsies.

Hashashin http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
If ANYONE can tell me how best to get something back from the florins spent at buying these psychos, or even the worth of spitting more florins at them to buy upgrades, I shall praise your name eternally. LOL.

Khwarzimirian Cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Very nice horsies, can hold their own in most situations. Got to upgrade that valor a bit though, and mayhap toss in a single weapons upgrade as well.

These are the units I usually bring to the field of slaughter, and am most familiar with. Your suggestions to upgrades, army composition etc, would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance

[bosdur]

They need arbalesters , badly

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I don't have your experience in MP (just have played a few weeks), have played mainly the Turks and happen to agree with you on many points.

JHI; most of the time I give them armors and let their kills upgrade valors

JI/ ottoman inf/ turco foot/fuwwa; I usually gives them a lot of valor because 1/ it's cheap , it's missile and 2/ they end up being my sword inf. I usually pump more otto inf and turco foot to make for lower morale. JI sometimes get weapons

Saracen Inf need valor period. 3 is a minimum.
Under 3 their morale is too low to make them effective. There is no way in hell they can get a decent kill, but that's not their job.

Ghazy; usually nothing. They start with high morale. Armor upgrade doesn't seem to make a big difference, they still die very fast....

Muhawid; if you are broke. Might need some armors. Don't like them much.

Turco cav; usually I give them nothing I buy them dirt cheap to go after router and give something to do to the opponenent (yes hunt my worthless turco with your expenseive whatever). Problem Alan is too readily available... Alan cav shall be limited to Byz.

Hashashin; smoke...

HAC/ Kwar/ Ghulam; val 1... Usually they gain some by themselves. I give weapons. Those 3 are pretty much the same...

Louis,

[ErikJansen]

I just wanted to comment on one point made by Louis, regarding the use of JanInf/Ottomans/Turk foot/Futuwwas..

Lately I've been playing around with bringing 3 Jan Inf & 3 Futuwwas to the field, a combination which seems to function well enough. They need some valor, since they WILL eventually end up in hth vs other units. The point is that even though the Futuwwas lack some discipline (may charge etc..) they are the only skirmishers I've found to function well in a hth role. Even with large upgrades on the Ottoman/Turk inf, they lack any punch whatsoever.

Oh and yes, I hate Alans/Hobilars with a passion. They have a tendency to ruin the day for my Turcoman.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I have found that Otto inf can deliver some blow (OK melee+AP), but are slightly less efficient florin wise that Jan Inf.

Still I keep using Otto inf, because they look good on the field.

I agree that turco foot are a notch below... Not worth taking unless in early (but to play Turk in early... well...). Their only interesting feature is good armor and def. Good for missile duel in early.

I can cope with Hobilar (not fast), but my morale takes -4 right at the beginning if I see 4 alans and 6 pav arb (+my usual V&V clueless leader)...

Louis,

[ErikJansen]

I've played almost a dozen MP games again tonight, testing out some more variations on upgrades. Purchasing armor for the JHI is an absolute neccessity, they last a lot longer and retain their punch throughout the fight. Though for a 15k game the upgrade is going to be pricey unless you drop valor alltogether.

No matter what you do to the Saracen Inf units they still suck a lot. Valor is the only thing, keep them from breaking too soon.

Muwahids... used them alot tonight, very average every which way I tweaked their upgrades. Same went for the Ghazis, cept they dished out more damage. But they drop like flies.

So the most cost effective combo I came up with tonight looked a lot like this:

1 x Heavy Janissary Infantry v1 a2 w0
3 x Heavy Janissary Infantry v0 a2 w0
4 x Janissary Infantry v2 a0 w0
3 x Saracen Infantry v2 a0 w0
1 x Ghazi Infantry v1 a2 w0
2 x Ghulam Cav v2 a0 w0
2 x Turcoman Cav v0 a0 w0

Though I'll pop online and try out the

3 x Ghazi (suicidal) Infantry v0 a0 w3 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

variant. Lol. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Marco]

If ever u play in early era with turks (15k)

try using 2 v1 desert archers
4 v4 futwawas
4 v4 Turocoman foot soldiers
2 v3 turocoman horse archers

and 4 cavs unit depending on terrain. (camels v3 if desert or heavier types if in lush)

have all yr archers units on hold hold.

This army works particularly well against opponents who are slightly hesitant when charging your line as they ll just be caught in a shower of arrows.

[Dionysus9]

Personally, I take 2 v4 camels w/ 1 wep upgrade (to kill enemy knights), 2-3 archers low valor for frontline pincushions, 2-3 futuwwa high valor for second line of archers (try not to get shot, engage when h2h comes). 2 v4 nubians to guard archers, 2 v3 alans to pin enemy cav and attack enemy archers, v4 urban militia for h2h troops--kinda weak unless valor pumped (even then not great), some horse archers to p.o. the enemy and pull cav out for my camels to go to work on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Saracen are a liability, they run too easily. Heavy jannies are too expensive. Turc foot can work ok, but more expensive than cheap archers and endup being just a pincushion anyway. jannie infantry great but too expensive for my taste.

Try v3 alans, you will have better luck.

*bows*

[Cheetah]

Very nice list Erik http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif I agree with most of your points. The only units I miss are the janissary archers and the alans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif so here they are:

Janissary archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

The best archers the turks ever had Tough their hth ability is pretty lame, when it comes to archery they outperform every other turkish archer units. Of course, they are no match for arbs so you have to use them for a support role, but they can do a considerable demage even to heavily armoured troops. Besides they have a good morale, so they dont need too much valour upgrade, I usualy use them as v1.

Alan mercenaries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Tough they are not specific turkish units they are a must for every turkish army Thier speed is invaluable when it comes to attacking those pesky arbalasters. Besides they have a good charge wich combined with their speed makes them an ideal unit for flank, rear attacks. Usually they cannot stand their own vs heavy cavs, thus it takes a bit of micromanaging to use them properly but they worth the effort The standard upgrade is v3.

[chilliwilli]

Actually Turcoman foot are the best archers in the game, run some tests. Jan archers are close behind. Oh and don't let the TW assembly stats fool you for Tucoman foot, they are wrong. There defense is not that bad either and I mostly give them armor and use them as sponges http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Erik,

It's expensive, but you really need those saracen to be val 3 if you want them to do something on the field. It's val 3 or forget them alltogether.

JHI optimum is V0 A2 W0

With 4 JHI, you may only need 2 spears... I would say either 3JHI +3 Sar inf or 4+2.

And then, with the free slot a 2nd ghazy?

Louis,

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]The best archers the turks ever had Tough their hth ability is pretty lame, when it comes to archery they outperform every other turkish archer units.

Nnnnope. Seems like my crusading to bring the composite bow into the game has been in vain... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Fact is, there is _no_ difference in the firepower of foot archers, excluding Longbowmen. None. Nada. Zip. They all use the same SBOW missile type; the only other missile types used by archer units are the LBOW (Longbowmen) and MTLG (Horse Archers).

I believe the current theory behind these "performance differences" (barring statistical illusion) is that some archer units in loose formations (like Turcoman Foot) can have more individual men with a clear line of sight to the enemy, hence these units have more men that get a "first rank bonus" to their accuracy compared to other archers (the bonus is minor). Of course, some archers are better armoured than others and for example Turcomans are good at soaking arrows, but there is _no_ difference in firepower.

I did a couple of tests some time ago with online buddies and posted the results in Main Hall, but the threads are gone now. In the tests normal Archers bested both Trebizond Archers and Turcoman Foot Soldiers, but of course the difference is because of random chance.

Tests were conducted against immobile units of spearmen, at about 3/4 of maximum range. The units expended all of their ammunition, then routed. Fatigue was removed in the second test, hence the higher kill average.

Test 1 average kills:
Trebizond Archers 43.6
Archers 44.9 (one archer unit was excluded because the opposing general was deployed behind the main line of spearmen)

Test 2 average kills:
Turcoman Foot Soldiers 45
Archers 48

Test 1 screenshot: 00000001.jpg (http://personal.inet.fi/private/jonsu/00000001.jpg)

Test 1 replay:archertest.mrp (http://personal.inet.fi/private/jonsu/archertest.mrp)

Test 2 screenshot:00000003.jpg (http://personal.inet.fi/private/jonsu/00000003.jpg)

Test 2 replay:archertest2.mrp (http://personal.inet.fi/private/jonsu/archertest2.mrp)

I'm sorry about the lack of logfiles, as I don't usually save them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

- Cran the Composite Crusader http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

PS. I don't intend to hijack the thread, I just feel the need to chime in whenever archers are discussed. Very good points about the Turks, Erik and others. I'll have to try armor upgrades with JHI... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Cheetah]

hey Crand, then why is it that everybody finds janissary archers to be better than the rest? Check out the following thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=6533)
Moreover, it is my battlefield experince that they are just better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I can get a 30-40 kills with them even vs western armies whereas with other archers I can get only 20-30 kills under good conditions. There were battles where my ordinary archers got only 10 kills spending all their arrows on armoured western troops
BTW, I thought that they have x-bows which could have explained the difference. Now, if they have the SBOW then why the difference? Is it just an illusion ??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif Hm, I have to try my good old turkish army but with different archers instead of janissary ....

[Crandaeolon]

I checked the thread already, but I'm too tired of arguing about the same thing for the fourth or fifth time to post there... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I truly don't know why people claim one archer better over others. Plain randomness? Using some archer types more than others? People getting better at using archers, then just sticking to one type of unit and remembering successes more than failures? The loose-formation theory?

People tend to see patterns in completely random events and claim one thing over the other according to their perceptions and personal preferences.

There is no difference in theory, you can look at the unitstats files yourself. Of course we don't have access to lots of hardcoded things, but IMO that's too far-fetched... and _I_ haven't managed to duplicate these performance differences either in objective tests or actual battlefield situations... and trust me comrade, I play this game a lot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

A clarification from the devs would be most welcome, although I'm beginning to believe there will never be one...

[Skomatth]

I think making the turks work is all about upgrades.

I have many a turk army though I haven't played with them much since I don' plan to use them in the tourney.

I'll post an actual army later, but here are some tricks.l

a2 jan heavy inf.

v2 a2 jan inf. put them in hold hold and use them as front line units

Naptha throwers I used 3 v3 naptha and one as my general and they work very well. Just make sure to use them early.

Hashishin. Used one as my general once. didnt have a point but it was fun.

Also tthe v2 sarecen can work well if you know the turks as well as my friend Om Ihcnek. Try and get a replay or game with him as the turks. Its funny to see western armies bite the dust http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

[Cheetah]

Om Ichnek, lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It took me a while -actually 5 secs- to figure out who he is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, Mo is an aggressive player, which explains his success with the turks, but for the average player I would advise to stick with v3 saracens.

[FearofNC]

i wont disagree with what some have said but here is what i think are the best ways to use turks...

for jhi...my fav 15k set up is using 4 of them.. the 2 outside ones are v1w1 and the 2 inside ones are v0w2

i dont use jarchers...the turk foot outpreforms them for different reasons...cost..spacing...and most importantly the shield modifer..

i use 2 crossbowmen at v2w0a3... they will almost stand agasint pavs...

i use kyz cav or camels agasint other cav depending on the climate...desert and arid i use camels...rest i use kyz...

golum cav or armianian cav for ground troops...again depending on climate...

i bring napas...between 1-4 depending on my mood :P but having one is most effective...put near your outside jhi... it has very high moral and isnt as likly to run from the napas as a sac inf would...nothing worse than routing your own army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

i leave the gazi at home with turks...already enough h2h power..

a recent turk army for me

1 gen alan cav
2 crossbow
2 turk foot
2 sac inf
4 jhi
1 napa
2 camels/kyz cav
2 golum cav/arm cav

[ErikJansen]

First of all I'd like to thank everyone who has responded to this topic for the input, its greatly appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

There are many variants on how to build a 15k Turk army which can hold its own, and I believe much of what is posted here comes as a result of individual style of play. One example of this is the fact that I've not used the Alans, as suggested by MasterBachus, because the Turcoman suit my style of play better. One on one the Alan will win hands down, but the Turcoman ability to harass and create havoc is one I put higher than actual hth punch. Mobility wise the units are equal.

Because of the JHI my Turk armies are almost always infantry heavy, though now that I've (almost) discarded the use of Saracen inf, that infantry army is still very mobile. Fast foot units abound in the Turk roster. I use the cav mainly to pin the enemy force in place until I can engage and destroy.

I also believe someone mentioned the JHI and their pricyness, which is true enough, but you really get value for those florins when you see the JHI decimate Chiv Knights, Lancers, Gothic Knights and whatever the europeans decide to throw at them. 4 JHI with 2 armour upgrades are a strict neccessity.

Also I've considered Louis' comment about the Saracen and the need for 3 points of valor to make them less unreliable. I'm leaning towards agreeing fully with that, although you really need 2 of those spear units to hold the centre. With careful manuevering you can keep them satisfied, but if you loose a flank then trouble looms. Luckily, the JHI seldom breaks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I also tried the Janissary Infantry v2 a2 combination, and they performed admirably. Still my first choice of skirmishers, even though the Janissary Archers have been heaped quite some praise upon. I'll have to spend some time employing those as well...

4+ months of playing the Turks in MP now, and I've still not decided as to the ultimate Turk setup http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PS Edit because I invite anyone who wants to have a friendly clash in the MP lounge to give me a yeller, would be interesting to see how others handle the Turks and mayhaps, just mayhaps, we could both learn some tricks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Crandaeolon]

I've left the Saracens out of my "Kebab" army for quite some time now, preferring to use v3 a1 JI for center-line work and v1 JHI for cavalry screening and flanking. (Occasionally center fighting as well.) Unfortunately the JHI don't do very well against Catholic shock troops of equal florins (i.e. Chiv MAA)... I wonder if it would be better to upgrade their armour instead of valour and use them a bit like knights, aiming for a valour gain by taking flanking opportunities and chasing routers?

Armour upgrades won't help much against arbalesters... and it's probably safe to assume that's what the Turks have to face. Valour upgrades both attack and hand-to-hand defense, so I'd prefer that. JHI have a very good armour rating anyway...

The lack of arbs is IMHO the greatest weakness of the Turks. Getting shot to pieces by missile units with a greater range is never a good thing, so the Turks either need a nice hill or they just need to move closer (=be aggressive.) I'd like to hear some tips from the Turk experts here on how to use them in a defensive role?

[Tempiic]

Most who know me, knows that I am mainly a 25K player. I do not consider myself a Turk expert yet and I doubt I will do so for any time soon, but it is what I am aiming for http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

As a result I am quite succesfull with fielding turks in 25K games, loosing with them not much in team games both on defence and offense as well as winning with them in 1v1's against slightly worse opponents since I do not have much 1v1 experiences. I sadly do not use them as often as i wish due to teammates' opinions as well as my own insecurity, by lack of better word based on the Turks main disadvantages such as the lack of pav arbs which are quite easily to exploit. This is why I even more rarely take them in 15K games, which limits my usefullness to this topic a bit perhaps. Fortunetly I started to experiment with them in 15K games recently http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The way how i pick armies is quite simple... For each faction I have played regularly, I have a core of 9 units of which I add the remaining 7 units as well as extra upgrades based on map, terrain, opponents factions, my own current mood etc etc.. All to keep my opponent guessing and to give myself an effective and dynamic army set-up. For 25K games my core is simple. It consists of 3 units of v3 Futuwas (1st rank), 3 units of v3 Jannissary Infantry (often upgraded to v4, 2nd rank) and 3 units of v2 Jannissary Heavy Infantry (3rd rank). None of them will be my general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif 4 further unit spots are reserved for cavalry most of the time. Based on this as well as my experiences with my specific extra troops i tend to pick, this gave birth to my current 15K Turkish army. It is not yet based on a core-system i tried to explain since I have only played something like 5 times with Turks in 15K games, but I am in progress in figuring out a nice core to use. This army however, is still undefeated after 3 1v1's. Guess I did not play any top players with them yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

1 V2 AHC
2 V2 w1 AHC
2 V3 AlanC
3 V2 a1 Futus
4 V3 JInf
3 V1 JHI
1 V2 Ghazi

I will make a reply to Cran's latest post asap but not now since I have to go. Need to think about it a little anyway;)

[ErikJansen]

A Turk army is often (always? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif ) at a disadvantage vs a Pav Arb army due to stuff you all know about. So I looked at trying to counter that somewhat and still come up with a hard hitting hth army which can hold its own.

One setup I tried seemed to work exceptionally well against ordinary opposition, and it handed be hands down wins in both battles. I think it was the composition anyhow, can't have been skill http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Missile heavy army for Turks v1.0:

4 JHI v1 w0 a1
3 Crossbowmen v0 w0 a3
3 Futuwwas v2 w0 a0
3 JI v2 w0 a0
2 Ghulam v2 w0 a0
1 Turcoman v0 w0 a3 (a bit fuzzy, there might have been florins leftover to spend at weapons upgrades too)

With this setup, line your 3 crossbows widely in front of the formation. A distance behind this you line up the other skirmishers in rows, and tuck the HJI behind these again. The Ghulams split up at flanks, watch for enemy attempts to disrupt the Crossbow line. Your Turcomans are free agents, as pr usual.

This setup ensures that any cav rush at your Crossbow line will also meet a shower of arrows as they draw close, and with Ghulams at each flank you should be able to intercept with ease.

With this combo I decimated an enemy Pav Arb line consisting of 3 units, though that included some Turcoman slashes at them as well. The enemy general concentrated his Pav Arb fire at the skirmishers behind the Crossbow line and let the x-bows (why didn't I think of writing it like this before??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ) work down the Pav Arb line. When this happened, I withdrew the skirmisher line further, forcing the enemy to advance his Pav Arbs if he wanted to continue the onslaught. This created openings for the Turcoman several times, even though the x-bows were left a little more exposed.

Oh and the x-bows are dirt cheap too, so no worries if the Pav Arbs chew at them some. Disposable heroes.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Louis suggested I might want to try this with Turcoman foot, but when I did the battles turned all rushy, so I'll have to check out the Turcomans some other night http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Erik,

Looking at the stat again, I don't see why I have a better feeling with turco foot than crossbow for missile wall purpose.
You must be right.
On the other hand, the sight of turco foot seems to invite opposition to rush (from your experience), and well if rush, pav arb are not an issue.
Ultimately, the best way to avoid the disadvantage of the missile duel with pav arb is to skip the missile duel altogether.

For turco horse, I think you can increase their valor if you want to.
I read somewhere something about; keep them at 0 val so they can flee out of trouble fast. Why?
One can actually rout turco horse using the white flag (Ctrl + O) when in trouble. It's possible to have it both way, valor + routing and on top turco horse enjoy the missile discount.
Agreed, it requires some more management, but it's more efficient than trying to break away from the fight manually or to let the rout happen during the actual fight. One can rout on purpose before the contact and escape safely.
DISCLAIMER. Don't do it close to the red zone. Don't do it when actual fight is started. But it's pretty much OK at the beginning (during missile duel?). Don't do it against Alan cav unless you have a trap set.

Do you happen to have a replay of this defensive battle we had on the 18th with a 'real' missile heavy turk army ending on mobile defense?
I would like to have it.

Thanks,

Louis,

[ErikJansen]

Heya Louis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I didn't save that battle, but I DO remember it very well. A pity its lost to us, that defense was a beauty even tho it ended in defeat. 3v1 is tough, but you came out of it looking real good.

On another note, I did rout my Turcoman today, on purpose, sending them into a forest fleeing for their life with 2 Lancers and 1 Gothic knight unit on their heels. A single Heavy Jan Inf, v1 w1 a1 was waiting for them in there. Cut up all 3 cavs plus one sent into the forest to help out (i believe that was a panic move). End result? Chewed up all 4 cav and had 33 HJI left standing after it. Then they legged it when Order foot were sent in to smack them one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

I still lost the battle... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif in fact it was my 5th loss out of 6 possible tonight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

PS I got the replay of that one, if it interests you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Heya Erik http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I try not to rout on my own troup if I have to fight (when I rout on purpose...).Kind of weary of those morale penalties...
Routing on your allies is much more of an annoyance...Routing on your own rank is just embarrassing for yourself.

How can you loose a battle after chewing that many ennemy fl?

Rereading this topic and a few other, I start to think I am missing something on the missile part of it that makes the difference between stat and field feeling.
Why FearNC is saying turco ft are better than Janarc when those have x bow?
What is the spacing factor?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Louis,

[FearofNC]

JanissaryBows
INFANTRY
275
PROJECTILE_TYPE( SBOW ),
SAMURAI( YES ),
MARCH_SPEED( 6 ),
RUN_SPEED( 10 ),
CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),
CHARGE_BONUS( 1 ),
MELEE_BONUS( 1 ),
DEFENCE_BONUS( 0 ),
ARMOUR_LEVEL( 2 ),
HONOUR_LEVEL( 4 ),
SHIELD NONE


JanissaryInfantry
INFANTRY
350
PROJECTILE_TYPE( SBOW ),
SAMURAI( YES ),
MARCH_SPEED( 6 ),
RUN_SPEED( 10 ),
CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),
FORMATION_WIDTH_SPACING( 60 ),
FORMATION_LENGTH_SPACING( 60 ),
CHARGE_BONUS( 1 ),
MELEE_BONUS( 4 ),
DEFENCE_BONUS( 2 ),
ARMOUR_LEVEL( 3 ),
HONOUR_LEVEL( 4 ),
SHIELD NONE

TurcomanFoot
INFANTRY
300
PROJECTILE_TYPE( SBOW ),
SAMURAI( NO ),
MARCH_SPEED( 6 ),
RUN_SPEED( 12 ),
CHARGE_SPEED( 13 ),
FORMATION_WIDTH_SPACING( 100 ),
FORMATION_LENGTH_SPACING( 100 ),
CHARGE_BONUS( 1 ),
MELEE_BONUS( -1 ),
DEFENCE_BONUS( 2 ),
ARMOUR_LEVEL( 3 ),
HONOUR_LEVEL( -1 ),
SHIELD SMALL


these are some of the stats for the 3 archers we are talking about

the cost
the speed
the spacing
the armour
the h2h fighting ability

are all a bit different...

depending on what you are wanting to do with them is what you bring... if your looking for the best archer...then its the turk foot... with the small shild...faster speed...and more spacing...it will out preform the others in the missle duel... if your looking for another infantry option ..then the janisary infantry is your choice..

[ErikJansen]

Real interesting NC, though it doesn't change my decision to use x-bows as pincushions instead of the turcoman. X-bows are cheaper, and these boys are supposed to soak missiles, as well as tempt enemy cav slashes at them. Nevermind the kill ratio I say, as long as the end result is a victory.

As for that missile army I posted earlier, it lacked a bit of punch. Substituting the Futuwwas with either Saracen Inf or Ghazi Inf, the Turcoman with an Alan and the Ghulams with Khwarzimrians will add punch if you expect a more direct enemy. It all depends. Call it version 1.1 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Oh and the battle I lost after taking down so many Cav, Louis, was a team battle 3v3. I was let down by my allies, and didn't exactly perform too admirably myself. Happens. Though it helps not to vent steam when I think back to my own first days of playing MTW online, where I would pick 8 longbowmen and sit on top of some hill/height, camp happily and surround myself with the missile units hedgehog style. Poor allies... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Alastair II]

I personally don't see the necessity of taking missile units at all, though I am somewhat inexperienced with Turks. I defeated LordHund-something in a 1v1 with turks, and my basic strategy was to take Jan Inf and JHI and rush. If the Cath. factions do take pav arbs, they will have probably 4 less units to fight with, and the remaining units will probably be partially anti-cav, which the JI and JHI can defeat, even if it takes a while. Also, Turks have pretty good cav, so often they'll be able to defeat non-Spanish factions on the flanks, and then come around to take out the infantry, though this will not always work.

In sum, I think the Turks have good enough inf that they can rush a faction that can defeat it in cav, and then help its cav in time, and that they have good enough cav that they can defeat a faction that has better inf but takes pav arbs. The point of all this rambling is that Turks need neither pav arbs nor pincushions, IMHO.

[ErikJansen]

Nice points Alastair, though you forget one small detail in your summary. Tactical advantage. A rush army might be all fine and good in a steppe map, I actually think it could do really well on either flank, but in a team game with varying terrain one will often want to hold onto a position of advantage, and the lack of pincushions might force you into a premature assault from a disadvantageous position. Not only that, but the pincushions, not to mention the Turcoman are meant to soften up the opposition as well as draw him out and invite mistakes as the foe works to vipe out the worthless pincushions. To me, at least, missile units are a neccessity to wage a successful battle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Oh and the Turk missile units pack quite the punch in hth as well, yep. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Tempiic]

Well wished I could add more, but sofar my 15K games with turks have been quite unsuccesfull (actually it has been unsuccesfull in general)

I tend to use futuwas as first line... rather than turcomen foot or crossbows

[FearofNC]

http://www.fearfulways.com/pics/turk1.jpg

http://www.fearfulways.com/pics/turk2.jpg

the names have been left out to protect the innocent

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Puzz3D]

Another factor affecting archer effectiveness is the valor level. Although it's small, there is an increase in accuracy as you increase valor. Some of the differences in apparent effectiveness might be attributed to using certain units at higher valor level. Wider spacing might also improve accuracy of the 3rd row, but I'm not sure about that. It will certainly allow more men in the 3rd row to fire since there will be less obstruction of line of sight.

[MF_Ivan]

Hmm NC,

You seem to have adopted a thunder bomber strategy. That with a combination of a probable newbie or amateur its not hard to chain rout a whole army.

So in conclusion the engagement was short, the enemy routed under the naptha and JHI, the cavalry followed in deep pursuit.

I say, its important to have pincushions, otherwise if your rush the army ur gonna take losses. Perhaps losses to an extent where that unit will rout too early, springing a chain in effect.

Range is far too important, in an end game it can be the deciding factor.

[ErikJansen]

Beautiful NC Just lovely, and with a desert background too. I'm on the verge of tears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif (joyful ones&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[tgi01]

Very interesting topic , the turks are one of the few original armies in the game and make a very good ally but are quite weak in 1 vs 1 ( i do not play them much but I find turkish armies easier than average to defeat ).

I think as we could see from the number of variations used that the turkish player should always inform the allies on what kind of army they are going to use , like if i can count on lot of archers to support me then i will probably
go for a more sword oriented army and so on ...

One other thing , I am very very afraid of naphta throwers... the allied variety http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif which will show up unmolested as I have already engaged the opponent and then they throw naphta on my troops .... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

kind regards

tgi01

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Playing nearly exclusively the Turk on MP, I found them versatile enough to be good in many positions. They can field many different kind of armies, and tgi is right, they need to speak about it.

The only case I would not take a turk army is camping. Cath armies do that better. Pav arb is an issue difficult to avoid when camping.
You can still fake missile duel with crossbow a3 or turco a3, but a good opponent will see throught it and go for more valuable troops.
Then, heavy foot knights are kind of better than JHI in camping defense... JHI really shine vs cav, but are a waste vs CMAA/FK. FK can do it all. And being a slow camper is not a problem.

I don't camp, so I don't really care, but in defense that can put one at odd with team strategy (if any).

How to build a good very defensive turk army for 15K in high/late?

Tgi got a point; a turnover is getting allies to buy 'extra' pav arb and deploy them in front of the turk army.

Louis,

PS; eventually i have dropped saracen (v3 or 2 or whatever) altogether... Who needs a front line?

[ErikJansen]

Saracen Infantry is useless. I havent used them in quite a while now.

A good very defensive Turk army would actually be quite, hehehe, capable in hth since you lack the means to stay out of Pav range forever. A Turk has no choice actually, you got to be aggressive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

On the defensive I'd stay Inf heavy and pick 2 Alans to use as anti-Pav or on flanking runs. I've almost totally discarded the use of Turcoman, which kinda sucks methinks, since the Alans outperform them in almost every which way.

The missile boat can be nifty on defence (4 HJI, 3 JI, 3 Fut, 2 TurkFt as a base) since that will seriously harm enemy cav raids on your pincushions.

Another option can be the crossbow line (4 HJI, 4 Xbows v1 as a base) since that gives you some extra florins to upgrade the hth ability of your inf. Also the xbow line makes it possible for you to bring a unit of Hashishin to place out in no mans land, where it hopefully can engage the Pavs if you can draw the opponent close enough. When/If the Hashishin engage the enemy Pav line, expect him to be confused, which would be your que for a counterattack http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

I've collected some more great replays regarding the use of Hashishin on defence, they are useless on offence methinks, and will zip/upload shortly. More examples of how to use them, and how effective they can be. According to KH, its not unusual for the Hashishin to collect 70+ scalps if they get the drop on the foe.

I guess you have to play aggressive with the Turks, every which way, and outsmart your opponent. That and kill Pavs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kraxis]

It seems I'm not the only Turk out there that has found great love for the JHI and the JI.

My setup is slightly different from most others. Only slightly though.

4 JHI (and from now on I will buy Armour too, thanks guys)
4 Turcoman Foot (with 1 Valour and some Armour)
4 Futuwwas or JI (depends on money and how I feel)
0-4 Kwarazmian
0-4 AHC

As the learned player can see, I lack power in melee. Thus I have to make as much as possible from my ranged troops.
I have found that the armourupgraded Turcoman Foot can take on Pavises and actually win/draw a ranged fight, talk with Puzz about that. Then when the enemy arbs are engaged with my Loose Turcomans (the combination of Loos formation, the loose order of the troops and their Armour and shields makes them perfect at absorbing fire), I will move my ranged melee troops up and fire at the more expensive troops (I will normally change targets for my TF to something more important when I can). This will normally cause horrendous losses to expensive cav or infantry.
What I really don't need is my enemy charging me too early, that will spell doom to me, but most often people rely enterely on their pav arbs and can't believe they can lose a ranged battle to bows.
If I'm really lucky I can even rest my ranged troops prior to melee, but mostly not. I will let the Turcomans (given they haven't lost too many troops in ranged combat) soak up the enemy attack, then funnel the JI/Futuwwas in and then move any weakened Turcomans out (bad Morale). Meanwhile I let my JHI attack the most heavy enemies and/or cav, while my cav flanks individually (nothing too fancy).

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ Feb. 28 2003,05:03)]A good very defensive Turk army would actually be quite, hehehe, capable in hth since you lack the means to stay out of Pav range forever. A Turk has no choice actually, you got to be aggressive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Well Erik, my question is; how do you build a defensive army if your team plan TO CAMP?

A player going into agressive camping has some behavorial problems.

Relying on Kraxis and NC experience, I would go for turco ft with armor.
Alternative; get some pav arb from your team member.

My set up for turk recently;

3 Ghulam v1
1 Turco Horse v1 (I can't play Alan... turco horse looks more turc&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
4 JHI v0a2
4 JI v2w2
2 Futuwa v3w1 (or otto inf in late then v4)
2 Ghazy v1

For less than 15K....

Main line is 4 JI
2 Futu reserve center. 2 JHI screening cav center.
2 * 1 JHI + 1 Ghazy on side, or trapping or cav chasing.
Overall morale of inf is 8 and overall melee is.. nice.

Cav walks around pretending to be busy. Completly expendable.

This set up proved to be completly average and doesn't give me an edge; I still loose.
This army can't camp. Nope. No way. Forget it. But it's kind of good in hilly place with forest and wild h2h.
Despite its shortcoming, I thought I would still give it to the community

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Louis,

[ErikJansen]

Camping... well...

I'd go for the xbow line and back it up with Alans for pretend screening. The turcoman foot is just as fine, but more expensive. Not that you'd want to spend the Alans in protection of the worthless xbows/turcos, but putting on a show of doing it could prolly save your ass until the enemy decided to advance. With the xbow line and fut/ji backing it up just outside pav range enemy raids should be limited. Then you got your JHI/Gazi mebbe a few Muwahids as well, to deal with the enemy push.

I played a very good game recently where the enemy bunched up pavs on my flank (pick on the turk player tactic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif ) and we shifted my mate's pavs up to screen me. Another sensible thing would be to gain some ground at the beginning of your defence as well, and then cede ground slowly throughout the missile phase. A viable tactic, to a certain extent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Using Alans to keep the pav abuser http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif on his toes is also highly recommended, just be patient about it, wait for an opening before committing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

PS Try weapons upgrades with your Ghazi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ Mar. 09 2003,21:28)]I played a very good game recently where the enemy bunched up pavs on my flank (pick on the turk player tactic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif ) and we shifted my mate's pavs up to screen me.
Hm, could I remember that game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ErikJansen]

Yes sir, Cheetah sir. You'd probably remember the game if you were in it. A great contest it was. I've 1 mint condition replay to help your memory if not. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Btw I don't know your online name either, which would help my own memory some http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Keep picking on the Turk player http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Cheetah]

Hehe, I could have been more specific. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It was a 4v4, I am RTKLional, we attacked you with MK_Znake, you were in pair with MizuDune. It was a good battle, I have the replay too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Ps. my ronin online name is Cheetah of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ErikJansen]

I'm resurrecting this thread simply cause I've some more questions to ask http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Louis I've noted you use Ghulam Cav in desert battles, valor level looks like a singular http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Why? What other upgrades do you toss at them?

Oh and if you turk generals haven't tried this yet, pick your 4 JHI and the rest cav. Turcopoles and Alans are a must.. Talk about hectic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Erik,

Well, you can read the log file... If too confusing, use the wonderfull wolf logfile reader (Kudos to the wolves&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

My couple of ghulams are v1w1, I think. Why so?

I kind of like how they look, IMO better looking than AHC. Then you don't see them often on the battlefield, so it's nice to play with them and let them prove their worth. And they are diirty cheap.

Honestly, I use them mostly against soft target/pursuing or to pin tough guys... At v0, pinning may not last long enough... Not pinning but close enough... Also use them to delay some units. All in all they buy time and are not suppose to win the day.
I don't like Alan much... Lose some turk feeling when I have Alan... I use turco horse instead... Not nearly as good, but at least I like it.

What do you suggest for those ghulam Erik? Make them v0w3 for killing softies fast? v3? For what purposes?
I don't need them to defeat heavy cav... that's the job of JHI...
The V1, is to give them enough morale they can hold a heavy cav long enough for JHI to come.

By the way, in alternative turk setting (with muc more cav, or in early), those guys may have a different upgrade.

Louis,

[Tempiic]

I think I have neglected my turkish hordes for too long... so im back into using them more often (least 1 per 3 games). Be warned http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Tempiic @ May 04 2003,09:29)]I think I have neglected my turkish hordes for too long... so im back into using them more often (least 1 per 3 games). Be warned http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Turkish Hordes? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Turkish armies are extremly goood looking and sophisticate with very nice line of disciplined troops (somehow disrupted by those axe wielding with a long beard guys... no, not Santa Claus... ghazi ) .

Tempiic, be warned that I have +1 command vs non good looking army, or non esthetic army. Hordes would certainly qualify. That still doesn't make my command positive, but that still a bonus

Looking forward to meet your head on the battlefield, and make a soup with it,

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Louis,

[ErikJansen]

Louis,

Your Ghulams should do well enough in the role you describe using them in, though personally I use Alans for that and flanking. Higher speed makes some difference http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

I know you're not a big fan of my Alans, so we won't argue that, cept why dont you use both Alans n Turcos? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Tempiic,

Its always good to have more players dedicated to the Turk cause, I'll bug you for some games if I happen upon thee in ze foyer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Question:

The Gazi are known to break out on their own in mad charges, this makes it an impetous charge yes? Offering the +4 bonus?

[Tempiic]

Yes Ghazi tend to do that, but im not sure if being on a impetous charge does give you a morale bonus... Im not aware of many stat things... futuwa's can do the same... even when put on skirmish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif